Michelle Obama: How to Stay with Your Partner When They Are Changing & 4 Check-ins You Should Be Doing in Your Relationship

29:04And as parents of my generation, we know so little about it. We don't even know how to monitor it. It's like cigarettes, right? Is it good for us? I mean, at one point, everybody smoked until we realized, oops, this isn't really good for us, right? I think we have to be cautious about this new thing that we're just lapping up. Yeah, I read an article a few years ago, exactly. It was saying that today we absorb in one day, in 24 hours, the same amount of tragedy we would in our entire lifetime 25 years ago. Today we absorb what we would in our entire lifetime in one day. And it felt real. And that's why people feel more panicked.

29:53I mean, Barack, my husband, he's a fact-based guy. He's a science guy. Sometimes it's not popular these days, right? Having a president that believes in facts and science and all that stuff, but he's one of those people. And he always says, you know, statistically speaking, especially when young people bemoan where we are today, he says, you know, if you look at history and statistics, if you were to pick any time in human history to be born, you'd want to be born now. Crime, war, those rates are the lowest, but nobody feels that people feel more unsafe why because they're they're getting fed images of every crime that happens anywhere everywhere right and when we were growing up you just heard your local news you know it's just like oh there was a fire or that kid you know and you know now we're getting everything not just from our community but all over the world stuff that's always been happening.

30:58We just didn't know about it. Now we know too much. And we're interpreting that to mean things are horrible. We went through world wars and depressions and famine. This isn't new. It's just, we know everything. It's one way to look at it. Yes, yes, absolutely. And I think you're right because there's the incomplete information. I like the word incomplete that you said. I appreciate that kind of subtle point, incomplete information. Then you have opinions. then you have feelings and emotions. And so there's, there's so much more information on every level. You have the physical information, the emotional information, the mental information, of course, the physical experience of it.

31:39And, and it can be, it can be too much. One of the, it's so interesting you use the analogy of climbing Mount Everest, because I went to see a comedy show recently, and I'm trying to remember the comedian's name. So I'll have to find it afterwards and, and put him in there. But he literally was describing, he was saying, relationships are like climbing Mount Everest. And so what he said was, he goes, you start at base camp and he goes, you and your partner are ready. You're ready to go. You're being guided. And then at one point you're like, oh, we're cold, but it's okay. We'll keep each other warm.

32:08We'll be fine. And then he goes, you get to the first stop and you go, oh yeah. Like, have you, did you pack the gloves? Did you pack the gloves? And then your partner goes, oh no, I forgot the gloves. And you're like, oh, it's okay. It's okay. We'll just keep our hands warm. Then you get a bit higher. And then they were like, now it's got to a point where it's really cold and you go, why did you forget those gloves? Like, you know, it's like the press, like, come on, like, why do you forget those gloves? Then you get the next stop and your partner says to you, like, you packed the sandwiches, right?

32:34And then you look at the sandwiches, like, I don't know where the sandwiches are. Anyway. And so you talk about this so much in your work, in your book, like relationships are challenging. They're difficult. I think you've been together now for over 30 years, 31 years. Congratulations. October. Yeah. Okay. Amazing. 31 years. congratulations that's incredible and so inspiring in so many ways my wife and i've been together for 10 years and that counts counts and and you know definitely like can see the the challenges unforeseen and seen that come with being together over long periods of time my wife and i in 2016 we both changed jobs so we got married we changed jobs and moved country so we moved from london to New York that year.

33:18We both quit our jobs in London. I could work here. My wife couldn't at the time because of her visa. And we started new lives and we obviously moved home and we were away from our families. And that year was, it brought us closer, thankfully, but it was a very challenging, difficult year because I've heard that those are some of the hardest things you can do. The only thing we didn't do was have a kid. That's right. You covered all the hard bases. Yeah, apart from president and first lady, I think that takes it. But when you're going for all those challenges, is you've talked about these many, many times before.

33:48Has there ever been a time when you've said things or done things and afterwards thought, I wish I didn't do that. I wish I didn't say that. What, in my marriage? Yes, yes. Of course, yesterday. I love that. How do you, because you've been together for 31 years, how do you rectify something like that when you know, because there's a difference between being spiteful or being silly, but like when you really feel like I shouldn't have done that, I shouldn't have said that, How do you address something that? You know, that's the practice of relationships, right? After 31 years, yeah, we still do it, but you know it quicker.

34:24And then you apologize, you know? You learn how to say my bad, right? And that takes a second, right? You know, that's why I talk about relationships in the light. I talk about marriage because I just think that, number one, most people don't talk about it. Like our parents, you don't talk about your marriage. You didn't talk about your feelings. You didn't talk about your parents didn't tell you about the challenges that we're facing. So why? Why don't we share the whole experience? Because what happens is that by not knowing, you hit in your relationship some natural, like understandable rough patches and you want to quit.

35:06And it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. That's not quit worthy. That's just the nature of things. You know, that's why I joked. It's like, oh, you're mad at your partner. You're mad for a year and you think the marriage is over. Nah, you're going to have decades of I don't know if I like you, you know, because over the span of a 30 year marriage. Yeah, you cobbled together enough arguments and you got a decade, right? And that's just the way it goes, but you don't quit on it, right? You learn from it. And that's what sustaining a relationship is. It's the choice to figure it out, not to quit when it gets hard.

35:50So, yeah, I said something that I didn't mean to say, right? Like year five, we might have had hurt feelings and it would have taken days to rectify it. Year 30, it's like, ah, there she goes again or there he goes again. I know when, how to talk to him about it and when because we've practiced it. We've made a lot of mistakes. We've gotten it wrong. And after 31 years, we're getting better at it and it gets better and better and better. Look, if you lived with your roommate for 30 years, you would hate them at some point in time. But it wouldn't be some defining thing. You have friendships. If they last long, you're going to have some falling out.

36:37Why do we put so much pressure on marriage to not be hard? It's the natural hardest thing you will ever do, which is to try to build a life with another person who wasn't raised in your shoes, who has a totally different temperament, right? And you're like having other people with them. You know, you bring other lives and other personalities into the mix and then life is happening. Of course it's going to be hard, you know? But I wouldn't trade in my marriage for anything in the world with all the ups and downs, with all the running for president stuff. I was like, why did you do that? I mean, talk about that being a big gaping.

37:22thing in our lives, but the good has outweighed it. And if we hadn't hung in there, we would have missed all the good. And that's what I tell young people. Like, first of all, pick well, pick somebody you respect and like, start there. Right. And then remember that that's who they are. And then understand that with that, they are going to be, and you are going to be deeply, deeply flawed and you're going to make a whole lot of mistakes. Right. But in the end, you can look that person in the eye and you go, you're still the person that I like and love and respect and we can figure this out. Yeah.

38:01So I share that because I don't want people looking at me and Barack like hashtag couples goals and not know that no, no, there are some broken things that happen even in the best of marriages. Absolutely. And you use that term quitworthy. Is that something that you defined for yourself, what you saw as quitworthy and what you saw as not quitworthy? That's a good question. Look, I think there are some objective quitworthy things like criminality, abuse. But hey, that's me. There's some people who love through a whole lot of things. So I think that has to be individual. But if I were talking to my daughters, I wouldn't want them in to stay in a marriage that made them feel oppressed.

38:50That was an overall negative to who they were. Right. I do think there are reasons to walk away from marriage, friendship, a whole jobs, a whole lot of things. Right. So yeah, I have a clear list of like the non-negotiables, but everybody has their own. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's so important that, you know, everyone who's listening and watching that idea of having our own quit worthy definition is such a need because it can get really hard to find clarity when you get really deep into something. A practice that I love doing with a lot of my clients and even people that I work with or online is I ask everyone to write down the needs that they have in their life and then write down the people that fill those needs.

39:37And it could be themselves too, some of them. And then some of them are their friends, their mom, their dad. And of course, in your book, like we know it's like your mom's like wisdom, right? Like she's the Buddha in your life, as you say. You see different people. What are the roles that you initially wanted President Obama to fill that you then realized they actually needed to be filled by other people? Oh, that's a good question. I write about it. The fact that we are two very independent, ambitious, smart people and complex, you know, as individuals. We, you know, we're dynamic in, you know, I'm not saying that as a ego trip, but.

40:17No, I know what you mean. You're constantly in flux. That's exactly right. And I learned, it took me a while to learn that, you know, there's no way we could be everything to each other. We have different interests, different goals. There was a stage in my marriage where I thought that's what a partner was supposed to be. You know, you should call me all the time. We should talk all the time. We should be each other's best friends all the time. Our marriage got better when I got better about that because I think he already had that independence, this notion of I love you. Even if I don't talk to you today, that to me is like I don't need that.

40:58I felt like I needed more of that. But as I got older, right, I got more mature, more clear about my own goals. I realized that I, you know, he can't be responsible for my happiness. I have to be responsible for that. I have to define it for myself. I have to learn how to achieve it. My husband is definitely a part of that, but he is not. I cannot put him in the center of my happiness. That freed me up to let him be him and let me be me. So I have friends who give me things that my husband doesn't give me. I have girlfriends. one distinction that we have is like, I'm a talker. All right. When I sit down with my girlfriends, we can talk for days.

41:47I mean, literally for days, we can take a break for lunch, but we can talk, you know, my husband's not, he can talk, but he, he will come by a friendship session, you know, nine o 'clock in the morning, I have a friend staying with me. And he's like, what are y 'all talking about? It's like, well, we're just now getting into our kids and we're going to talk about each one of them separately for like an hour. Right. He's like, I couldn't do that. Right. He can't be that for me, but I have really good, mostly girlfriends who give me that, you know, that we will dissect life to the bitter. We will wring everything out of every subject.

42:26And he's like, I think I'm done. I was like, well, you can go be done because I've got her and we just got started we're gonna we got 12 more hours to go right parking shouldn't slow you down park whiz gives every driver a shortcut book ahead save up to 50 and skip the hassle of circling the block park smarter park faster park whiz download the park whiz app today and save every time you park and that's so beautiful to hear because i think especially when we're young we think that that person has to be all of that. And from the beginning and, or they'll become it. There's the other fallacy of like, oh, well, I know who they could be and who they could become.

43:07How much of that did you feel you had to disconnect and detach from of like what this person could be? To you, obviously not in the world, but. I had to disconnect from all of those beliefs, right? And every couple is different, I've found. I know people who are each other's best friends. They like to travel together. They walk and hold hands. And I have friends who are in relationships where they talk like every hour. I'm like, are you talking to him again? Nothing changed. You know, it's up to the individuals to define that for themselves. That's the cue ad, yeah. For Barack and I. And I think you should be clear about that.

43:46Because the other thing is that when we hold on internally to an expectation of the other person, we don't even share it. So now we're mad that you haven't even filled something I never even told you I needed. That takes time and it takes work, which is why marriage is hard. Because you'll have the tendency to live in your head and live out the image of what you want them to be. And you haven't even communicated that to them. That's just one little fraction of the challenge of marriage and friendship and all of that. It's hard. It takes time, but it's worth it. Absolutely. Yeah, I think those check-ins are the hardest.

44:23I know that there's four check-ins that I try and keep a good habit around with my wife that have really helped me. One of them is every day I'll ask her, like, what was your highlight today? Or what did you learn today? Something positive, something like, what's the best thing that happened to you today? I want to know because it's so easy for us to get so busy in our days, not see each other all day, not speak all day. And days can go by like that too because we're also traveling. then every week i try and ask her like how can i what can i help you with this week like is there something coming up that i just need to be aware of yeah sometimes it's just information yeah and that gives me an opportunity to also tell her i've got a really stressful week coming up right just know that i may not be at my best this week i'm just letting you know uh every month i'm you know checking in with her and trying to just say to her like uh what's what's your big focus for this month like you know what what's the big thing that you're working on then every year is easy like you know what's your goal this year a resolution or whatever and i find that those questions and sometimes every quarter i'll ask a question which is the hardest one but it's like is this relationship going in the direction you want it to and if it isn't what are you willing to do and what am i willing to do to get it back on track yeah because i find so often like if you just don't talk about that deep intimacy you're just going on different tracks and that's why five years later you're like well i don't know you anymore yeah yeah and so i find that like staying in close contact but one of the biggest things i read which i wanted to try with you is the gotman institute talked about how the number one skill or habit in relationships and they looked at couples who'd stayed together the longest and they found it wasn't date nights it wasn't vacations it wasn't any of this stuff it was learning how to fight oh it was knowing how to deal with conflict and most couples obviously we all go well we never fight or we're never going to fight but it's inevitable so i came up with these three fight styles and i wanted to know okay how you see yourself and how you see president obama how he would see him himself and so here the three fight styles are a venter which means i want to fix and solve it right now you like to vent you're really trying to fix and solve it the second one is you're a hider you need time and space to think about it.

46:35Just want to go spend time by yourself. And then the third one is the exploder where it's like, I want my emotions to be heard, felt, and seen before we take time apart or before we try and solve it. Which one are you? Okay. So I've changed over. I think early on in our relationships, I was more of an exploder. Wow. I think he has been, always been a fixer, right? The venter, yeah, fixer, yeah. So then I would be explosive and then want to hide, right? It's like, I want to explode. Let me have my emotions and then give me a moment. Yes. Right. And he's like, we've got to fix this. We've got to, you know, shut this down.

47:12We've got to, I will figure it out. Let's talk this through. Yes. And I love that about him, especially as a man. You know, he is somebody that is not afraid to put his emotions out. He's smart. And so he knows me. So he's like, he won't let me pretend like there's nothing wrong because he knows, I know there's something you're a little off and, but I've had to learn that exploding on a fixer, it doesn't feel good to them. Right. It just, you know, it feels good for me, but it doesn't feel good for him. Right. But he's learned that as a hider, that I do need a little more time. Right. If I'm exploding, I can't be rational enough to talk through your fixing.

48:01And if you want to fix it, then I've got to be in a rational place. So let me hide for a minute so I can get myself down to a fixer place. Yes. I think that's been the trajectory of our sorting through, learning how to argue. But I like those. But he's been pretty consistent. Yeah. He is consistently the fixer, you know. And he's also much more even keel, you know, than I am emotionally. Yes. We're just different people in that way. And he's learned not to be too afraid of the explosiveness. Yes. It's like, I don't mean it. I'm just saying it right now because I need to say it. Yes. Right. And that awareness that you're just displaying there is so powerful to witness because you realize, wow, it's not as serious as I'm making it out to be.

48:51It's important. That's right. It's important and I need to take note of it, but it's, I don't need to deal with it in this situation. Right, right. And it's maturing. We all say, well, say what's on your mind, you know, tell it like it is. And it's like, yeah, that tends to be who I am. But as you get older, you realize, yeah, that's your heart. But your head tells you you want to be heard. And you have to think about who you're talking to and what your end goal is, because that will dictate how you have to communicate to them. So when you're young, you just want to be heard. Yes. as you get older, you have a goal.

49:30You want to achieve something. And being hurt in the way you say it may not get you to your goal. I mean, that's at the crux for me of what going high is, right? I mean, going high is being strategic. If you're really trying to make change, you have to think about whether your approach will allow for change to happen. You know, Going high means you're thinking about a broader point outside of your own anger or hurt or pain. You're thinking, where am I trying to get to and how do I do that with this group that I'm trying to move? That's passion matured into purpose. And young people often, they want to just act with passion.

50:13Yes. Right? But passion doesn't always solve a thing. And I've learned that in my relationship. You know, my passion isn't is meaningless if my husband can't hear it. You know, if I've hurt his feelings in the process, well, what's that's not the point. You know, so I have to mature my passion. You know, I have to mature it as a mother. Right. I have to be very careful as a mother with the words I say. I can't just say what's on my mind. I can have to think about how I say it to which child. Yes. Because they're both different and they both need to be parented different. Right. So going high is like, to me, it's the mature way to live.

50:57Right. It's the mature way to get the message across. It doesn't mean that how you feel isn't relevant. Right. Yeah. It's true. It's real and true. But that's for you to deal with when you're dealing with external people, whether it's your husband or your kids or your friends. your passion has to take way to, well, what's going to work with this person? What's going to work with this group of people? To me, that's what going high is. Yeah. What a great definition. I think you're the best person to have this conversation with. I love how you explain the need for that. And actually, I don't think I've heard it explained in that way before.

51:36I really appreciate it because I think currently we've confused being authentic and being strategic. What you were just saying is when you're sharing how you feel, you are being authentic, but maybe it won't be authentically received or heard or seen because it wasn't strategically perceived. But we sometimes today perceive strategy as manipulation or as a technique as opposed to - Or selling out. Or selling out, right. Walk me through that because I think how we perceive, we've put authenticity on a pedestal, which is not wrong, But we've put strategy as like the thing that you kind of, you know, shun.

52:16Well, and maybe strategy is too strategic or hard of a word. Word, right. But you could replace that with empathy, right? You know, if you were... Or connectivity, yeah. Connectivity, it's sort of like, who am I trying to move? And where are they in this, right? And when you're the president of the United States or the first lady, you have a big platform. I've always felt like I have a responsibility to set my feelings aside and think about where are you? Why are you so angry? Where is your hate coming from? Because yeah, I can be mad at your hate. I can be mad that you're, you know, you just said something racist or you knocked me down a peg or you misjudged me.

53:03But if I'm trying to fix the relationship, I've got to understand, what are you going through? Where did that perception come from? What's your history? What puts you in this spirit of hate? Because that's going to dictate how we can even begin to have the conversation. I don't lose my authenticity in that because I know who I am, right? But I have to make room to understand who you are. That's either strategy or empathy, but to me, effective communication, especially if you're a leader, if you have the power, it requires a step back, right? And I think that's what going high is. And I do, you're right.

53:45I think in this day and age, we've kind of supplanted that consideration because my feelings count. My voice has to be heard, which is also why I think we have to learn how to hear people throughout, right we have to give people a space to be heard outside of the anger right because that's where all that's coming from right when people can't mature their response it's because they don't have a voice it's like if i don't have a voice in regular conversation then i will make you hear me yes all right young people feel that way absolutely all right oppressed people feel that way people who don't have a stake in it feel that way, which is why I think it's strategic to give everybody a piece of something so that they feel seen and heard.

54:40I think that brings, that ratchets down the anger, the explosiveness, because people can guarantee that they are being seen, they'll be heard. They don't have to yell. They don't have to tear something apart. They don't have to break it because they own it. And we just lose sight of that. A thousand percent. These days in our policies and our perspectives, you can't shut people out. You know, I talk about in the light when I think about kids from communities that are underinvested in, their anger, their lack of, like, I don't, none of this belongs to me. So why would I protect it? Why wouldn't I break down your house or rob you or try to take your car?

55:28Because I don't own any of this. This country is not mine. They don't see me, right? I think we do better with kids if they feel like I've got a chance here. This place is investing in me, so I'm invested in it. We do that with kids in the inner city, but we don't talk about education. We don't talk about what we're giving them or whether they have music or joy or sports or activities. We just want them to have nothing and then be okay with it. But they're going to fight to be heard. They're going to fight to be seen, but they're not going to do it in a rational way because they don't have a strategic place and they don't feel like they're a part of it.

56:10So true. So true. When you're trying to go high, when you're trying to have this view of, I want to understand your story, I want to get inside your mindset and recognize why you have evolved in this direction or this particular path. If anything, what does still offend you? Injustice, ego, greed. It's offensive. Racism, ignorance. It's offensive. And I've always been that kid. I don't like unfairness. I don't like bullies. but I have to think about how I deliver messages. That's beautiful. Still, even in my pain and my anger and my disappointment. So those emotions are there, but I have to think about where do I let that out?

56:58Yes. In a safe space. And that's what my kitchen table is, right? I still have those emotions, but in my public-facing voice, I have to be responsible, right? And strategic and thoughtful about what's going to move the needle, what's going to add value. My emotional well-being gets taken care of at the kitchen table. I can't suffocate those feelings, but I can't act them out in the town square. Yeah. Because I'm just going to add fuel to the fire. And that doesn't help if we're trying to move the needle. And that doesn't make you inauthentic. I don't believe because those feelings are still mine.

57:40And if you ask me, I'll tell you what I'm angry about, but I'm not going to lead with that. And in the midst of the message, I'll make it clear what I stand for and what I don't stand for. But the tone and tenor of the message matters. We can't just say what's the first thing that comes to our minds. We cannot. That is not authenticity. To me, that's childish. And we see childless leadership right before us, what that looks like and how that feels, where somebody is just base and vulgar and cynical in a leadership position. It doesn't trickle down well. You know, that just begets more of that.

58:26I think we are obligated to model for those of us that have a platform because it resonates. and I want to resonate good. I want to resonate reason and compassion and empathy. And that's more important than my feelings because my feelings, I can take care of those. That is, that's a masterclass in communication right there. Genuinely, that is, to hear that from you with so much empathy but energy is so empowering for everyone who's listening and watching because I think we've approached it from the other way around today. I think my personal feelings, not mine, but in general, how we feel, my personal feelings have become more important than moving and supporting and serving and caring and getting to where we need to get to.

59:21And that's because we've suppressed those feelings. That's why that has happened. It hasn't happened because people are mean or insensitive. It's happened because people feel They've been so unheard going back to your point. And that's why we need to give space. We need to let this rise. How early did you start recognizing this for you in your own life? Like where do you remember like the earliest before the White House, like where you actually were like, this worked, like this made sense. And I still felt good because I had my kitchen table. Is there anything that comes to mind? Do I go to childhood?

59:53I don't think I knew any of this when I was little, but I think I, you know, I learned it on the campaign trail. It was a product of one of the hardest moments that I had on the campaign trail, but one of the best growth moments. And I write about this in The Light when I was accused of not loving my country because of some phrasing I said. I learned, first of all, that when you have a public forum, especially in this day and age, and you're competing, people will distort you whenever they can. And if they distort your words, your truth, even your personhood, which I felt like people attempted to do with me, with us, they tried to otherize us as the first black people.

1:00:43accusing my husband of being a terrorist and not being born in this country, accusing me of being an angry black woman and, you know, the labels that can easily get put on others, the people that are othered, right, to make people afraid of us, that that is a strategy that gets played again and again and again. It was being played on me, and it got me to the point where I was almost ready to quit campaigning, right? But then I thought I have to be more strategic than they are about how I deliver my message. I have to be authentic, but I also have to be careful so that I don't get mischaracterized.

1:01:26I have to be smarter than them. That doesn't mean I stop. But I had to regroup for a minute there and really evaluate how am I going to regain control over my narrative and communicate in a broad way, right, that allows me to be heard, especially as a black woman here, being critical or being authentic or passionate, right? That was a learning curve to me. I mean, I think my sentiments about the importance of communication were always there. Yes. My belief in how important it is that stories connect us, that was there. I learned that. in life. But learning how to do that on the public stage, I learned the tricks and pitfalls of it in my first campaign.

1:02:19And those lessons stay with me. Yeah. Thank you for that example. That example definitely connects. You reminded me of probably one of my favorite set of words from Martin Luther King, where he said that people who love peace need to learn to organize themselves as well as those who love war. For those who love us who love love and love peace and love compassion and empathy, if we're not organized about it, if we're not strategic about it, if we're not thoughtful about it, it won't have the impact that we all crave for it to have. Michelle, you've been so kind and generous with your time. We end every episode with a final five.

1:02:59These are the fast five which I always ruin because I'm too interested and curious. They're usually answered in one word to one sentence maximum, but I know I'm going to ruin it. So it's fine. So the first question I have to ask you, Michelle, is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? I heard a lot of it from my wise mom, come home, we like you here. To explain that, it was like, my parents always taught me that the world won't always like you, but you can't count on the world to like you. You come home to be liked. You go out there to get your education, to earn a living. You won't necessarily find people who will see you or love you or like you.

1:03:47You get that here, right? And that's been a piece of advice that stuck with me. Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you. That's so powerful. I know a lot of people who need to hear that right now. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? I don't know. I don't, I don't know that the worst advice stays with me. You let it go. My brother, this isn't the worst, right? But it goes back to what we were saying earlier. You know, he's like, when you get into the White House, you got to be careful. No new friends, right? That's not who he is, but you know, it was a short way of saying, be careful.

1:04:20I think staying open was more important in this phase in our lives than being closed off. I'm glad we stayed open. I'm glad too. Question number three, you said that the White House doesn't change you. It reveals more of who you are. What did it reveal to you about yourself? That I'm pretty strategic and smart and resilient. The White House tests you in ways that you never anticipated. And the fact that we came out as a family, as individuals, the four of us, me and our two daughters, that was us. That was our values, our compassion, our smarts, our strategy that got us through. You know, I'm so proud of my husband and the way he led, the way his administration worked, the team that we built.

1:05:20So proud of everyone. I may have diverted from the question but beautiful um i think that's that's because of who we are and i know that now i can i can see it in your eyes and and feel it from your words like it's it must be hard like knowing that you know it can't always be that way in one sense it's almost like great that you've been able to leave but there's a there's that feeling also of like oh but that was great. I mean, the bars are different for people in life. That I've learned. This is the thing about being another. You learn how to be excellent all the time because you can't be less than.

1:06:06Other people can. Other people can be indicted a bunch of times and still run for office. Black man can't. You just learn to be good. And in the end, you benefit from that extra resilience. You know, you could be mad about it, but it also makes you more equipped, right? But it's still not fair. Yeah, definitely. Question number four, we've got two more left. Question number four, you've obviously already began living and will leave an incredible legacy for the work that you've done. If you could describe what that you'd want that legacy to read if someone was reading it or hearing it what would it what would it say that she helped more young people feel seen as i start with young people because with one word we can change a kid's life we can lift them up but that same the wrong one word can crush them forever.

1:07:17And those are the building blocks of our humanity, how we treat our kids, all of them. All right. And so I hope that my legacy is creating a stronger foundation for young people. A fifth and final question. We ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. More appropriate with guests like yourselves, but if you could create one law in the world that everyone had to follow, what would it be? Everybody should have a home to live in, food to eat, a job to go to, and education, period. There would be the fundamental rights of everyone in the world. Now, there could be levels of that. We would not live in a world where so few have so much and so many have nothing.

1:08:09And that law would create some kind of equity we have this trickle-down approach, right? That's the basis of a capitalistic economy, right? But that's not happening. It's not trickling. The law would require in whatever way, if we're not trickling voluntarily, then we need to be forced to trickle. How do we create that law? It really... I mean, how do we get that... Mandatory trickling down, right? No, we so need that. We so need that. What's blocking that? What's stopping that? I think fear. Yeah. I mean, I write about fear because I think fear is at the source of so much because I think the people who have a lot are afraid of not having enough.

1:08:59And it's not rational, right? But we fear the other too. And so it's hard to give to people that you think you should be afraid of. because you can't connect with them. We're all human. We're so alike. I don't care about skin color or how we pray or how we love. We're all the same. What keeps us from seeing that is fear, right? I don't know you. You're different. So I got to be afraid of you. And I can't. I have to make sure you don't come into my space. And then we live in a culture where people with power prey on fear to get more power. I want to make you all afraid of each other. And then I can come in and rule it all, right?

1:09:49I think fear is at the root of that. Michelle, I deeply appreciate your time, your energy, your presence, the eloquence, but also the deep energy you bring to conversations like these. And I'm definitely grateful for the light you carry. And I'm very deeply appreciative for you sharing it on On Purpose. And I hope this will be the first of many conversations together. So thank you again. Thank you so much. Thank you. We'll talk again. Absolutely. Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Amen on how to change your life by changing your brain. If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain.

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