Nicole LePera: How to Break the Cycle of Trauma Bonds & Stop Toxic Relationship Habits

26:21Yet my laser focus on the lack of the dishes being done and the fact that that brought me back as if I was the child who didn't have that level of attunement, even though it was available in my adult moment, it was as if my focus deleted it. I was back in time. I was wounded and I reacted right from that place. So just using my example, your example, I think all of these really beautifully give us when a moment in time elicits a really big reaction. And this isn't to say, I want to be really careful here. The emotion that I was feeling in the moment at the dishes was very real. Physiologically, right?

27:00I had tension in my muscles. My heart was racing. I was having an emotion. It's not to shame ourself in that moment. Going back in time doesn't negate the reality of the emotional experience that we're having, which is why a lot of us feel out of control, feel like we can't choose a responsive choice, feel like we are instinctually kind of compelled to react in that one way, though we do have that choice. If we can teach ourself again, that separation, if we can understand that big emotions are real, though a lot of times do indicate something from an earlier time. And a lot of times it explains why our reaction can be on the more immature, again, just developmental side of things.

27:45Yeah, no, I'm so glad you ended up because I think that is such a poignant example of how this all works. And it's nice to take something as simple as a visual of a dishes and then where that comes from. What do we do with that awareness though, Nicole? Like what do we do with that awareness? Because I think a lot of people will recognize, oh God, I've just heard what Nicole said. Yeah, that's right. When my partner does X, it reminds me of how my parent did Y. Or when my partner doesn't do Y, it reminds me of when my parent did X or whatever it may be, that version that you have while you're listening right now.

28:20And for everyone who's listening and watching, I think we go, I see that, but it's, I've crossed that bridge so many times that it's, I've got so used to feeling that it's not only is it real, but it's true to me that if someone doesn't do the dishes, they don't care about me. Like we've put that meaning to it, right? We've ascribed that very deep self-worth to an act, right? Because of the amount of times that it's gone on and on and on. Let's say we're fortunate enough to even get that awareness because even that requires so much work to even be able to admit that even though it's real, even though I feel it, even though it feels true, that it necessarily isn't true.

29:03It's just a belief that I've built over time. What do I do with that awareness? Because I feel so conditioned by it. I feel so stuck in it. And guess what? My partner still doesn't do the dishes, even when they understand this. So where do I go from there? What do I do? I think that first piece of communication can go a long way. As we get clear on ourselves, of course, when we feel safe and secure in our particular relationships, we can gift that knowledge because that might be the difference between our partner then. This is, I think, what happens within relationships when we kind of enter into conflict cycles.

29:37We have one person regressing back in time, becoming reactive, and then typically something in their reactivity sets off the receiving partner who then goes back in time and now we almost have two children kind of like sparring, not able to though enter their wise adult or more grounded, if you will, mind. So for a lot of people, that awareness is incredibly helpful, right? For a partner in a moment to say, okay, this isn't really about the dishes, even though I'm feeling very frustrated that I'm getting yelled at that the dishes aren't done right now, I maybe can compassionately breathe through.

30:12For the person who's uncovering, there's important information in these moments. Again, it's not to throw away the emotion or to shame ourself for having it. Those emotions carry important information, right? So if at the bottom of this, for a lot of us, there is an unmet need. Maybe it's not, maybe the support I need in that moment isn't about the dishes, but maybe there is support I'm needing in a different area or a different type of support that I could benefit from. So understanding what's driving our reactivity, I think, can give us not only the language to communicate, it can give us clarity on what's really going on, which then can give us flexibility in other ways that we can attempt to get that need met.

30:58Because this is where I think it gets even more complicated. What many of us are seeking, Me, right, even if I came home and all of the dishes were done, that wasn't going to remove what I felt in the kind of like pit of my heart. And I do. It feels like a visceral. As long as I can remember, there was a pressure feeling on my chest. That wouldn't remove that feeling because where that was coming from was from a lack of emotional attunement. So even if everyone that I surround myself with cleans my dishes from now until the end of time, if they're not giving me that emotional attunement that I need, if I'm not participating in that emotional attunement that I need because I'm not present in my own emotional body and sharing them, right?

31:40You get the picture. Then I will just have a lot of clean dishes for a very long time, and I'll still have that pit and that hole. And I think this is why a lot of us cycle through reactivity. We maybe do directly communicate. Maybe even sometimes our partner does the dishes and we still don't feel satisfied. We still don't feel fulfilled. We still don't feel that connection or that support that we're looking for. Because what I think a lot of us are actually looking for are not the actions. We're looking for that deep level of attunement. We're looking for that resonance. We're looking to just feel a little less alone, even if no one is saying anything to us, because they're just sitting in that emotional presence or that emotional space with us.

32:25Yeah. And I think you're so right. Going back to what you said earlier, we have to sit in that space with ourselves in order to invite someone to sit in it with us because they can't just find that space, right? It's almost like you have a basement level in your psyche that you have the key and access to in the elevator. And if you don't invite someone into that because you haven't visited it before. They're just on level one trying to figure out where you want them to go. And I'm literally visualizing Inception right now, the movie where all of his dreams are locked in an elevator. But I think that feels so true to me that I find that even with my wife, we had a really interesting conversation recently.

33:08So her book came out this year. And before the book was coming out, this was like maybe a month before the book came out. And I said, I really want to understand how you'd like us to celebrate this occasion, because I don't think I know. Now we've been together for 11 years, married for eight years. And I just said, I don't think I really have understood not just how you like to celebrate, because that I know we've celebrated great birthdays and you've had a great time, but I don't know how you'd like to celebrate this occasion in your life. It's different. I don't want to take it like anything.

33:40And I said, my assumption, which would be wrong because it's a projection of how I'd like to be celebrated. Mine would be to throw you a big party, invite all your friends over and, you know, have loads of great food and everything. But I was like, I think that's wrong. Like I know that. So how would, and she said something really beautiful. She goes, she goes, we, I felt like we celebrated it last night. And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, well, we had our friends over. I cooked for them from the cookbook. I made meals for them. They all really enjoyed the food. And I was like, yeah, but we didn't And like that, it was, it was just a dip.

34:14Like it was just, and she was like, that's how I like to celebrate it because I got to cook what I love for people I love and they appreciated it. And that was me celebrating it. And I was like, oh wow, I could have just, that would have been easy to organize. And it was just this really interesting thing about this communication. Like, and I said to my wife, I said, after she, I said, please inform me of things like that because I would have no idea. Like if you don't let me in, if you don't invite me into that space of this is how I like to be celebrated. And she goes, you know what? I don't think I've thought about it until you ask me right now.

34:43And so it was a joint discovery. And I think if people look at their relationship, it's not like, oh, you've kept me out and you haven't let me in and you don't tell me. It's actually more like, we're actually just figuring this out. Like both of us on an awareness level of figuring this out. I think that's such a beautiful story. I'm smiling. I was so struck when I first met Lolly, who I've been with her for a little over 10 years now. And she has such a curiosity, one of the things that attracted me very early on to her about everything. She's just so interested in life, people, understanding them.

35:15And this was completely different than the experience I had in my family. I was never necessarily asked what I thought about certain things or how I was experiencing certain things that more or less kind of we operated with this kind of unified front in my family with a lot of projection. If one member felt or thought this thing, there was the assumption that everyone thought or felt that same way. So now flash forward decades and I'm with Lolly who's always curiously asking me my perspective on things, how I'm experiencing things, what I think. And I was so shocked and at a loss, if I'm honest, I had a hard time answering a lot of her curiosity in the beginning.

35:57Oh, Robbie too. I didn't know. I didn't stop to think. So I'm imagining myself being asked how I would like to celebrate something. And that would have been a gift of exploration for me to have and to consider. And I think what you're sharing, I had a moment with Jenna, so my third partner, and I, the other day, in one of these very similar moments that you're describing. And we were sitting in the car and she was very quiet. And I noticed a pattern of when we're out typically driving in a car, and that's a lot of the time where her and I are out doing things together, she's very quiet. And so I'm over here conditioned from my childhood to assign the meaning to quiet, which is danger, bad, silent treatment.

36:35So you upset someone because this is the experience that time and time happened again in my childhood. So I'm sitting in the car and this is, I mean, we've been together now for over two years, Jenna and I. So for two years now, I'm driving in silent car rides. I've not said a word, just in my mind, worried, oh gosh, maybe we have nothing to talk about. Like, isn't this like, I have things on my mind. I would try to engage conversation. She would give me one word answer. So finally, just last week, I said, I just want to bring something up. I noticed that you're quite quiet when we are out in the car together, you know?

37:03And it opened up a beautiful self-awareness opportunity or couple awareness where she was like, oh, you know what? I guess I am. I really like to just look out the window and look at the scenery and listen to the music that we have on. It's really as simple as that. Meanwhile, I spent the better part of two years secretly worried, right? So I think these are really beautiful examples of how simple some of the steps that we can take are and also how complicated humans make it because we do project. Totally. We do. We are subjective creatures who are projecting all of the time. And I'm just sitting at like, I have a lot of compassion for myself, just all of this suffering that, you know, causing ourselves without just having the direct conversation and communication.

37:48communication. Yeah. We think we know what someone is thinking, which is all based on how we think we feel affected by that, right? Like we think others are affected by things the way we are. And therefore if someone's quiet, we believe they're quiet because if I was quiet, that means I'm upset. And therefore if they're quiet, they're upset. And what's really interesting to me is when we communicate, which I'm so glad you're raising that because it sounds basic, but it's not because a lot of people when we communicate we just say well I wish you'd talk more in the car I I wish you'd just know how you want to celebrate your birthday I wish you'd just tell me what you want me to do and that's not communication those are almost demand or control mechanisms or like kind of uh they're kind of orders in one sense like giving an order to someone as opposed to saying hey you know because of how I've grown up I feel when someone goes quiet it means there's something wrong, what does it mean for you?

38:47Like, why is that important for you? And I think that's what communication is. It's a safe space to explore and be curious. And one of the things you brought about earlier was this idea of how the nervous system seeks familiarity. And what's really interesting is on the cover, you talk about finding peace. And what's really interesting is that all of our familiarity is chaos. And so when there is peace in a relationship, when there is quote unquote boredom in a relationship, when there's quote unquote stillness in a relationship, a lot of us who are familiar with chaos go, wait a minute, what's going on?

39:25Because we're familiar with it. And so I want to clarify what familiarity means because I think we think familiarity means a good thing, but we don't realize familiarity just means what you're used to. And so talk to me about how should we respond to peaceful scenarios when we're familiar with chaos. I appreciate this because I think this is such a common experience, myself included, with a lot of stress, overwhelming stress in the home. There was a sense of home that I would receive when in stressful relationships or when interacting with stressful individuals. So familiarity really simply is repetition.

40:04It's that which is predictable, right? It's kind of thinking of the neural networks even. I think that is very common in our language. I can't think of the word, you know, dialogue these days. So understanding, again, familiar is repeated, right? It doesn't mean there is no good, bad label that we can put on it. And a lot of people who have had chaotic early experiences will, exactly like you beautifully said, get to those moments, even meet a person. And without that rush of chemicals, we'll assume it's not the appropriate relationship. And one of the biggest takeaways I hope that people get from reading this book is kind of two part.

40:44First being the awareness that the way we're defining and relating to other individuals, like I said at the beginning, is more of an imprint or an artifact of our past than an objective reality about our present. And then once we understand that, I think that could open the door for some of us to become aware that what we are seeking and recreating in terms of familiarity repetition is grounded more in stress, chaos, maybe even trauma, unmet needs, than in a grounded, secure, peaceful love. because that's what we're really looking to create. And understanding that our nervous system is playing a foundational role in that, meaning if I'm not able as an individual to self-soothe or to find safe, secure others with which I can co-regulate with, if I'm not able to create safety in myself, then chances are I'm not gonna be able to interact with another human and find that secure grounding.

41:42So when I understand, again, the role that I'm playing, the role that my nervous system is playing, that my nervous system is playing a role, right? That I can't just wish my way into a calm, grounded relationship. I actually have to teach my body how to have one. And I also understand that that does not mean that I won't experience conflict or disagreement or disconnection. Because I think sometimes after we unlearn and create the possibility of even being safe and secure, I think sometimes people then have the immediate expectation that a safe, secure relationship is one without conflict, without disagreement, right?

42:20Without unmet needs in any given moment because things need to be negotiated, right? And that is included in a safely grounded relationship in actuality because anytime two individuals who are uniquely different are trying to relate and navigate life and make decisions for a future of shared interest, there are going to be those moments of disconnection. So the goal is not to remove or expect those to not be present, how can I always find my way back to safety and security is the best question. How can I repair after these moments of explosion or these moments of disconnection, assuming that they will still be present?

43:00And how can I always continue to expand that foundation within my relationship of safety and security? It doesn't mean that there won't be upsetting emotions or moments of dysregulation, but we can as a system return back to that peace and that grounded state of calm. Yeah. How do you know on that point of when there is love? I think we always hear things like, you'll know when you know, and you know, you just feel it like no matter what you love someone. Like I find that it's so interesting because like we said, you're not familiar with peace. So when peace comes up, you create chaos. We're not familiar with love.

43:37And so how do you know love is there because you may not be familiar from your childhood with what it feels like to be loved unconditionally or wonderfully in whatever way that means. How do we then find it? How do we then notice it? Because we don't necessarily have a clear experience of it. Yeah, that's a really, it's a beautiful question even to consider and a painful, I think, question too, to come to the reality that we might not have that embodied memory, if you will, of what it actually feels like to be in this sense of safety and security and love. And I think maybe this, it would benefit a discussion of love, maybe really generally, because I think when people think of love, and it's not to say it's not a feeling, the way I define love at least is it is a feeling in connection with an action.

44:32Right. It's a sense of compassion, of consideration, of let me bring it back, of awareness of another individual and then the ability to be considerate, compassionate, not only in thought and feeling. I can sit here and feel a sense of love for you, but I believe love extends beyond that into an action. Am I able to then show up in this embodiment, whether it's just to support you in being present with you when you're in an emotion that's upsetting or overwhelming, whether it's to show up in more active or objective support of you in whatever way that it is that you might need it. But so to know if we're able to or when in which we're in that space, again, all of this goes back to the body.

45:17Because unless we're present in our body, in our emotions, unless we're able to feel, right, to attune emotionally, to hold space and to sense that there is someone else that I want to consider and to show those levels of care, we have to be grounded in our body. to connect with our heart, to connect with the emotion of compassion and care, and then to act from that embodied place. Because again, what we're looking for is that presence. That's a loving action in and of itself, outside of the other ways, of course, that we can more objectively support someone. So again, I think it's, if we're looking for that rollercoaster of biochemical emotions, if we're looking for us to be like, you know, kind of hit over the head with this like love spell, I think, again, we're going to be looking for something that might not necessarily exist.

46:09Because, again, I think love happens in those grounded moments. We're able to extend space and awareness that there is someone else that I can and want to care about. Because when we're in a survival mode, when we're not calm and grounded and safe and secure in our own body, we can't even consider a perspective outside of our own. let alone show up in care and compassion of that perspective or that individual and their best interest. So again, foundationally in the body, I can't make a case enough for how important it is to be in loving action. We have to be connected to our body, our heart in particular.

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48:36This point about being connected to your body is so valuable. And I recently discovered, I felt deeply for the first time, a disconnect I had with mine and it came from my childhood. So I remember when I was young, I would say probably pre-teens and maybe into my early teenage years, there was a, I used to experience my heart beating fast, losing my breath, like feeling quite physically what would be considered like, even like pain in the heart region, like tight chestedness, like physically. And I remember I would tell my mom and my mom would take me to the doctors. And we'd go to the doctors, they'd wire me up with certain like technology or tools that would measure my heart rate and things like that.

49:20and they'd tell me to wear it for the next 24 hours, sometimes the next 72 hours. And I'd wear it to school or whatever. It'd be under my shirt, I remember. And then they'd look at the records and they'd be like, he's absolutely fine. Like, he's fine. And I'd be like, I'm pretty sure I'm not fine. Like, I definitely feel something. I don't feel it for 72 hours, but I do have moments where I feel it. And my mom would be like, well, I'm not, I'm going to get you checked again because she'd always care. And my mom's always been a very loving individual. And so she'd introduce me to more specialists and they'd always come back and just say, oh, maybe he needs an inhaler because he has asthma.

49:55And then I remember testing that for a bit and that wasn't it. And they were like, oh no, sorry, we gave him an inhaler, it wasn't that. And so they wouldn't know. And I forgot about that. I think I actually started living so disconnected from my body because I didn't know what that meant. And so I didn't want to feel it anymore. And so I started reliving quite cerebrally and mentally. And I got fascinated with mastering the mind and everything else that I've done in my life. and it's so interesting that recently I was sitting with my wife and we were talking about this I was like I was experiencing anxiety and I was experiencing nervousness and I was experiencing stress and when I was 10 years old 26 years ago no one was talking about those things and doctors no one was telling me that and where I grew up in England like I didn't know anyone who had a therapist until even recently so I didn't have a therapist that was telling me that and I feel like I focused to live outside of my body for so long because I couldn't make sense of it.

50:51And because authorities and elders and experts in my life couldn't validate an experience that I was having and almost made me feel stupid for having it when I was a kid. And now I look back and I go, no wonder I lost touch with my body. And so getting back in touch with my body again is looking back at something at childhood, which I lost. And now in my life today, I feel so much more closely connected with it again, where I'm like, oh, I can spot stress. Oh, that is inside. Okay. I know what's going on. I know breath work now. I have my meditation tools. I have my toolkit to help me, but I can now experience all of it in my body.

51:26If I'm waking up earlier or I'm having disrupted sleep, I know it's because I'm stressed about something in my daytime. So does that make any sense with this connectedness to body? I'm shaking my head so wholeheartedly, Jay, because that feeling that I described earlier in my chest, very young, I remember being a very little kid sitting there, usually laying awake at night when a lot of anxiety would happen for me, I now looking back believe was anxiety. And I was emotionally alone, so completely overwhelmed. And I lived then with near constant anxiety. Up through my 20s, I had panic attack after panic attack.

52:02And so two things that translated to a general disconnect from my body, so much so that when And I've been an athlete my whole life. I played softball through college and generally lived in cities, walked, things like that, tried to keep myself active. Anytime I would be doing a more vigorous movement and my heart rate would start to elevate and my body would start to mimic the panic attack feelings, I would start to immediately think I was going to have a panic attack. I need to avoid it. So over time, gradually, I started to even limit not only generally how much time I spent in my body, how much time I was moving.

52:36because certain movements would mimic and bring me back. So anytime I would feel a discomfort, especially in my heart, I'd be like, oh, avoid that exercise, that's not for me. And so over time, disconnect it from my body, avoiding anything that could help me reconnect with my body because it felt too much like anxiety, living that same embodied way, away from my emotions on my spaceship, like I call it. Yet my number one complaint in relationship after relationship was how emotionally disconnected I felt. Just like we've been talking about, point at the finger outside of myself. It must be the person I'm picking.

53:13You're not able to meet me on my emotional level. On to the next relationship where lo and behold, after a couple months of honeymoon and there was, you know, chemicals were off and then I was back into, we're disconnected again. Not seeing how all of this connected back to my childhood. Overwhelmed with emotion, my body and the emotions, which were totally normal. Too much for me to handle. I created this disconnect that I then lived in on this spaceship. And then I held everyone responsible for that disconnection that I was playing a part in creating. And again, if that isn't for me, was an invitation to rebuild.

53:51And I think this is the other side of the coin here. All that awareness was beautiful. Now I'm still tasked with the daily commitment of reconnecting and living in my body. And there are a lot of moments where I still meet, whether it's physical discomfort, emotional discomfort, because now I have a lot of tension that I carry, a lot of muscles and hunched posture that I'm always trying to stretch and work out of my body. And that physical discomfort makes me want to say, you know what? I don't want to do this today. I'll do this tomorrow. Yet staying committed to releasing that tension. Same thing emotionally.

54:23Feeling really vulnerable and uncomfortable. Being emotionally vulnerable and asking for the support I need. but knowing that that's what's going to create that level of attunement that I'm looking for. So all of this for me remains a daily commitment because even though logically I can stay here on podcast after podcast how important these things are, yet all of this wiring and this discomfort and this vulnerability and all of these beliefs are still present, that it is a conscious, intentional choice every day for me to say, no, Nicole. Foundationally, your day begins in your body, whether it's just 20 to 30 minutes of gentle stretching and silent reflection, I'm in my own vessel before I then go and serve the world.

55:04And that isn't to say that my email isn't distracting me. I don't have all of these things I should be doing running through my head every morning. But I use this as an illustration again, because I think some people think that, oh, awareness equals, oh, I just shift and change and become this new person. And especially if we're talking about reconnecting with our body and developing the ability to tolerate stress and upsetting emotions, that awareness is going to take a lot of practice to put into place the tools and the resources in our bodies so that we can begin to contain the discomfort. Yeah.

55:38And I think that negativity, you've just sparked for me this thought that recently I've been practicing more as well, is that that negativity we feel externally when we don't like someone or someone's causing us pain, we start seeing our body in the same way. and so I found that often even though I consider myself to be quite a positive uplifting person for myself and for the people around me with my body I've actually sometimes have a very different relationship and I found myself critiquing my body I found myself being negative about it if I've got a cold or if I've developed over Christmas I had a really bad perunculated tonsil like it was really really swollen and it was huge you could see if I just opened my mouth and I was just constantly like god just go away like I've got so much to deal with like you know I need to use my voice for my work and I had this negative cycle and one of my friends who's a healer and you know a wonderful teacher in his own right he said to me it was just like Jay like you know you need to take the medicine and you need and I'd been to this point I'd been taking antibiotics and everything and nothing was it wasn't going away I was like god I've been on a course for two weeks like nothing's happening and he he gave me some natural remedies but he was saying, obviously you need to do the right remedy and take the right practice.

56:50But he was like, you need to change your relationship with this. Like your relationship with your body is, your body's your best friend. It's telling you, hey, I'm not feeling so good right now. I'm trying to warn you of something. I'm trying to let you know what's going on. And you're telling your body to shut up and go away and get lost and just sort it out. And he was just like, just think about it differently. Like the idea that your body's actually trying to help you. If your body is tired because you haven't slept enough, guess what? Your body's saying take some rest. If your body is panicking because you've finally done some exercise or done something challenging, it's your body saying, we're not used to this.

57:23We need to get used to it. And so your body's actually on your side. And even pain is helping you recognize that there's something to shift, whether it's your diet, whether it's your, and you talk about this in the book, but whether it's your diet, whether it's your supplements, whether it's activity, whether it's meditation, stillness, but we look at it as a negative signal rather than a sign of actual help. I'm really, really relating to this coming from a childhood where there was a lot of not only chronic pain, chronic illness. And so for me, any sort of physiological symptom near immediately, my mind goes to the possibility of or even likelihood of it being a catastrophic even illness.

58:10And so for so long, the second I sensed a shift or a possible symptom or a sickness or something coming on, I would go into kind of that fear-based, oh my gosh, what is this a sign of kind of mentality? And at the same time, for me, physical illness was a point of connection with my mom. because my mom, one of the moments in time, especially with my older sister who suffered from a lot of chronic illness, my mom was able to be present when she needed to physically care for myself or my siblings. So now, right, I have this complicated nature and I would see kind of a remnant of this through my 20s when I'm 20 years old, right?

58:58I have a sinus infection. I, at this point, know exactly what to take. It's the same thing I've taken for probably the decade before for my sinus infection, And yet I have memories of being in the drugstore in New York calling my mom and saying, oh, mom, I'm sick again. You know, what do I need? And she was like, oh, get Claritin, which is the thing I always get, you know. And for me, I'm understanding now that was a moment where I was looking for connection. So how complicated my relationship became with my body, right, where there was a certain almost desire to be sick. Yes. Because now I can have the love and attention of my mom, right?

59:30And then there's a fear of being sick because that could mean something catastrophic. Then sometimes in my mind when upset with someone else, I go down to exactly what I heard in my childhood growing up where a statement my mom used to make is, you'll miss me when I'm gone. So sometimes my mind now will fantasize to hurt someone that has hurt me, something that happens to me typically, probably guess by now, where I'm sick. Oh, well, you'll be upset. Won't you be upset if something were to really happen to me? How will that be for you? And all of this world now manufactured, created from this early experience, complicating my relationship with my body and is still to this day, I have a lot of unlearning that symptoms, like you beautifully said, Jay, are just signals, not signals of a terminal illness, just a signal.

1:00:21So really for me, not only learning how to connect with my body, how to unlearn some of these more kind of catastrophic beliefs and how to learn how to connect with people outside of me needing someone to physically care for me is all still kind of really a complicated mess. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, how do you start, or what are the therapy-based, healing-based, neurological actions and habits we can take to rewire that? Because you're so right. Like some people get ill and then they're manifesting, like I'm gonna get cancer, right? Like it's like a feeling of like, oh no, this is the worst. I was speaking to someone else the other day who said to me, they really believe that their success is one day just going to crumble because they don't deserve it.

1:01:03And it's something they've always believed. And so how do you unmanifest? Like how do you almost rewire that thought process? Because that again is a repetitive thought. A belief, just going to start there. The way I simply define a belief, it's a repeated thought grounded in our lived experience. So kind of breaking those two kind of sections, the way we navigate then beliefs, right? Because we can't just affirm our way out of them. We can't just give ourself a new belief. It doesn't necessarily work, though we can acknowledge that we have repeated certain narratives, certain beliefs in our mind, right?

1:01:41Those neural networks have fired outside of our awareness time and time again, and will continue to fire outside of our awareness time and time again, the same, every time a similar event happens that would elicit that sort of interpretation. Meaning what we do in the moment, we don't anticipate that, oh, these beliefs aren't working for me, so I'm just going to shut the volume off and they'll go away. Absolutely not. They will occur again the same time a similar experience warrants them. What we can do is show up as the empowered presence, the conscious being, and we can choose how much attention we're giving.

1:02:17Are we going to hook our full attention on and keep repeating the belief once it is kind of offered in our mind? Or are we going to say, oh, right, there's that old belief again in my mind. It isn't necessarily accurate or true, or I know it's not true. And now I can choose somewhere else to put my attention. That's the first half. The second half, the more powerful half, why we can't just affirm our way, our belief is because of what's happening in our body, right? Like we were talking about earlier, we've validated this experience. We feel this to be true. So the only way we're going to shift that embodied experience is if we begin to make new embodied choices, right?

1:02:56To show up in action countering that belief, even before I believe otherwise. So just to use an example of common belief, I think that is at the core of many of our relational habits is how we're not worthy, right? So the next time when you hear all the litany of reasons reminding you of why you're not worthy, right? We notice it. We pull our attention away. Doesn't mean that I'm going to feel worthy immediately. Does mean though that I can show up and begin to show up in actions of worthiness. How might someone who is worthy treat themselves generally or in this moment? And then consistently over time, make those choices even before you believe you're worthy.

1:03:34And knowing somewhere down the line, if we weaken that belief network by pulling our attention away every time it fires. And if we're now strengthening a new belief network by inaction, embodying a new choice that will allow us to feel differently and maybe affirming a new thought, now we have the beginnings of a new network that will over time take over where that old network existed. Yes, yes, yes. I remember kind of discovering this through the studies I did when I was a monk. And one of the practices that I developed, and this was to develop qualities that were recommended for people of spiritual culture to have and to reduce the effects of qualities that were not seen as aspirational.

1:04:26and so I remember writing down my top three to five most repeated thoughts around a particular thing and I'd put a line down the middle of a piece of paper and I would write down the script of what my mind currently says in that trigger in that response in that moment and then for each point I would write an alternative script and the key was the alternative script was not about being positive or not about being the opposite. I think that's what I've often seen. So for example, if we took the basic premise of I'm not enough or I'm not worthy, as you just said, and on the other side of you just run, I'm the best thing in the world, like that doesn't work.

1:05:12It needs to be more comprehensive and thoughtful than that. It needs to be more valuable than that. It may be I'm worthy as I am. I've always been worthy. There's not a moment of becoming worthy. And what I found is the more that I researched those, the more that I read books like this and created paragraphs to support it, and the more I rehearsed it like an actor, like a script, you started realizing your script just changed. And all that you ever did was memorize an old script and learn a new one and trade it. That's all it was anyway. It was never that one was true and one was false. It was just that you had a script that you learned from your caregivers since the beginning and from the people that loved you first.

1:05:53And all of a sudden you have a new script now. And it's so interesting to me that we so deeply define ourselves by thinking we are our thoughts and how much our thoughts are seen as non-different from ourselves. But actually they're scripts. They're just scripts. And which script you've read the most and practiced the most and rehearsed the most is your reality. Yeah. And I think what we are missing is the foundational role that our and other people's body sensations played at the creation and repetition of those scripts. And I've been talking a lot about a good old Descartes, I Think Therefore I Am.

1:06:33And a lot of us do have and embody that belief that all of the power is in the mind and the mind carries this reality. And that's just so simply not true. All of the power actually lives in our body, in our instinctual body. And what participated in creating those scripts again was what was happening in our body and all of the other bodies that were navigating those moments around us. And then that continues to be the case. We pay most attention to what's going on in our mind, not becoming aware that even in the current moment, what was happening in our mind was usually activated by the shifts in our body, by the fact that our nervous system outside of our awareness is always assessing and looking for possible threat based on what was once threatening to us.

1:07:21right so all of these physiological shifts that you and i keep focusing on and talking about are initiating for a lot of us the thoughts that we then become present to in our mind so until we understand again the foundational role that the body continues even to play in shaping our thoughts ultimately in shaping our beliefs and then creating the opportunity to change both of those categories of thinking and believing right we're not going to be able to to create the shifts ultimately that we want. And when we do, that's when I think we can create incredible transformation. Tired of spills and stains on your sofa?

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1:09:40One of the things I love doing on the show is really clearly defining terms that I think are starting to become very mainstream or viral on TikTok or, you know, these terms that I think often also get thrown around. And so I wanted you to please define for us what is a trauma bond? Because I feel like that's a term that is gaining popularity and gaining traction, but often we're not really sure of what it means. What is a trauma bond? I think a trauma bond is a relationship in which dysfunctional habits exist. And I'm giving a very, intentionally giving a very expanded definition because I know clinically in the field for a very long time, trauma bond, I forget who it is that coined the term years ago now, Carnes, I'm forgetting his exact name, but around a relationship in which there was abuse, usually active physical or sexual abuse, and a kind of felt connection or commitment within that relationship.

1:10:34And I actually think this kind of mirrors my own expansion of definitions such as trauma included to, I think, categorize the many other versions of trauma bond patterning, of breaking cycles, as I share in the subtitle, that exist within relationships. So again, really simply, it's the relational pattern that a lot of us learned that was adaptive in early childhood and those earliest relationships that we then rely on because it's predictable. It includes our identity. It includes the predictable identities of all of those that we're relating to. And we rely on that kind of dynamic, the felt security in that dynamic, let me say it that way, as our home base.

1:11:18So a trauma bond, I think, applies to a lot of us. I think there's a lot of dysfunctional habits that many of us are carrying in, particularly around emotions and how we relate to and navigate emotions in relationships that many of us are still experiencing and to answer a question that maybe listeners are having. Because sometimes I do then get asked, well, can you change a trauma bond? Is a trauma bond doomed? And I will be the first to say that when I began my relationship with Lolly, it was absolutely had a lot of trauma bond patterning. It's what attracted us to each other on some level. And through dedicated action on both of our parts, I absolutely believe and have seen obviously many other instances where trauma bond, just like attachment patterns.

1:12:03I think this is another very common language. In my opinion, at least, they are not be-all, end-all categories that are, you know, kind of for a lifetime or a terminal sentence, if you will. So trauma bond, again, dysfunctional habits that exist in our relationships, typically habits that were once adaptive or protective at one time that get repeated, that can absolutely be changed. That's so interesting, though, what you said, that they were once protective. And what's really interesting that you said was that now they become in the relationship. Oh, that you're even attracted to each other because of those.

1:12:43Like it can even be the foundation of why you get together with someone, which is even harder to lose because that was what brought together. So you almost feel like there's so much value to it. So how do you break that cycle then when it's almost like I'm attracted to you because of this trauma bond and we're starting to have that dependence on each other. How does one then break that apart when it feels like that's the reason you came together? This is kind of, I think, going down another rabbit hole in a sense of attraction. Because I think attraction is another word, you know, like we were talking about earlier in terms of familiarity and habitual, right?

1:13:17A lot of times that which we think we're attracted to is really that which is familiar to us. It's kind of like attraction based on the familiarity principle, if you will. So I think when we're considering that aspect, what, yes, does feel familiar and therefore attracts, quote unquote, us to many of the partners that we choose are the habits that we are used to, right? Not necessarily what we want to consciously choose to create. So when we, again, become aware of what we're carrying in, what those early dynamics are, then I think we could get a bit clearer in terms of whether or not we're attracted to familiarity or whether or not this is someone that we want to pursue a future with.

1:14:05And regardless, again, because like I said, we can become attracted to familiar and then create a future that's not familiar at all for the two of us, you know, walking in a direction that we are intentionally choosing. What empowers that shift is intentionality, in my opinion, conscious awareness. Each separately are together as partners showing up and saying, I'm understanding, right, these dynamics about myself. These are the changes that I want to make, right? This is how I see us going together in the future. So I think when we have the awareness and then have the communication, we can create the opportunity, right, to not only get clearer in terms of even if we were attracted to something that was familiar, doesn't mean that it's not workable for us to keep both of our best interests in mind and create a future that works for both of us.

1:14:54What is real, another term or another practice that I think has also gained, again, mass attention more recently is inner child work. And I feel like it's really interesting because we are starting to gain this language around how we have an inner child at all times. And a lot of our inner child's needs are unmet. You talk about authentic needs in the book. And now we spend our adult life in some way trying to fulfill those unmet inner child needs, but often in our adult life, it can take us in so many different directions and keep us lost. What are some of the mistakes we make in trying to meet an inner child's needs?

1:15:35And what are some of the healthier ways we could choose to meet our inner child's needs? And even if they're needed. Yeah. Understanding, I think, even just this concept of inner child, I think this is another one of them that we could, upon hearing it, I'm an inner child. I'm an adult. This doesn't apply to me. And I think what kind of an inner child, how we can define that is the subconscious space of our mind, as I've been describing throughout, that houses a lot of this patterned way of being that was created at that time. That was the adaptation in terms of how we had to shift and change and what needs were getting met or not getting met and what emotions that we had to, or aspects of our self-expression, like I described earlier, that weren't appropriate or that we were shamed, right, for having so that ultimately all of this now is beneath the surface.

1:16:26It's still, for a lot of us, driving a lot of our reactivity. Even those moments that I've been sharing with the dishes, right, I'm becoming emotional, right? That was a moment where my inner child was very alive, right? I was feeling the feelings back in time of that unmet need of not having that attunement. So when we, I think the first shift is understanding that that exists inside of us, that we are kind of compelled and wired and we do have needs. And beginning then to explore how we are showing up in service of our needs. Is there space in our general day? Is there space in our relational day to make sure that I'm caring for my physical self?

1:17:07Is there room and space for my emotions? Am I giving and receiving the support that relationships allow for? And do I feel safe to be who I am, right? And chances are, if you're not kind of overwhelmingly saying, yeah, I'm feeling pretty calm, grounded. I can take care of my needs. I can share my emotions. We can negotiate for future. I'm able to be myself. Then a lot of what probably is happening are the habits of our inner child. So becoming then clear how it is and creating space to break those patterns first, right? Kind of shifting out of those habitual ways of being and creating an opportunity to show up newly.

1:17:46And for a lot of us, that means even bringing a full circle, learning a new relationship with our body, really simplifying it, looking into our sleep habits, looking into our nutritional habits, looking at how we navigate stress and the impact that it has on us, and then creating new habits that can better care for our nervous system so that ultimately we can be more attuned to our emotions and more able to share those with somebody else. Yeah. One of the things you talk about in the book, which I really resonated with was the seven conditioned selves, caretaker, overachiever, underachiever, rescuer, protector, life of the party, yes person and hero worshiper.

1:18:25And I was thinking about this a lot because I found that a lot of people, naturally the way we see it, they're still playing that role, that role that allowed them to feel safe, protected, in control when they were younger, they're still demonstrating that role. And often that role today can actually lead them to becoming extremely successful, extremely accomplished, extremely adored, famous, rich, everything else. It can do so much, but then they almost get exhausted of playing that role or you recognize it's a role and it was a role that you took on, but it was never you. It wasn't the you you wanted to be.

1:19:02It was the you you had to be, how do you reconcile that? How does someone reconcile whether they're externally quote unquote successful or not? Just they've recognized now they're like, I've been playing this role. Maybe I was the peacekeeper. Maybe I was the comedian. Maybe I was the mediator since I was young, but actually I don't like that role. I don't want to be that role. But now not only has that role been protective of me for so long, how do I give it up? Who would I be without it? and can I construct another self? Yeah, I mean, you're beautifully giving language to not only the questions, though to the process of, I think, reconciliation.

1:19:44So once we become aware that there is a role we're playing, which for a lot of us is very shame relieving because I know for me, very much identifying with the overachiever, very much being validated by society that celebrated many of my achievements. I carried a ton of shame as I started to feel really disconnected and unfulfilled with this life that was supposedly created to make me feel validated and happy and fulfilled. And so when I didn't immediately feel that way, I started to worry and wonder what was wrong with me, right? So without the language to have kind of zoomed back and say, oh, well, it's understandable you don't feel disconnected to your life, Nicole, because you're not authentically living it, You achieved all of these things in service of seeking your mom's attention, seeking your mom's love, seeking the sense of worthiness in action.

1:20:39And in reality, it doesn't represent who you authentically are because in many moments, you're not even sharing who you authentically are with anyone. So that awareness piece, I think for a lot of us can be hugely shame relieving, though it doesn't shift us into maybe the embodied self or the self-expression or authentic expression that we want and need to create, right? We have to break the habit of being this person, of playing this role of wearing this mask and create a new habit of showing up in our authenticity, which for a lot of us is very destabilizing. We've wrapped these identities. Some of us even prided ourself.

1:21:20Some of us, like myself, created a whole life around this identity that now we're questioning, right? We could feel shameful because we're older now. We should know who we are and what we want. So that could feel, you know, overwhelming. We might need to shed, right, some of the actual identity in service, like how we are showing up now. We are making, like, strategically new choices. So we're shedding identity. For a lot of us, it means mourning and grieving the circumstances that create it, the need for me to play that role, right? The unmet needs, the aspects of myself that I was taught was too unworthy to be expressed.

1:21:59So for a lot of us, it's getting curious, it's questioning, it's creating the space to grieve and be with our pain and the resilience to begin to make new choices. Because again, all of that is still governed by our body because now we're going to show up against the expectation of a lot of people. We're going to be challenging a lot of people, other people's perception of us. We're going to be challenging the dynamic like we talked about earlier that was repeated and validated over time. And now we're showing up not playing this role that we've already played. And so the stress that we're going to create in all of the systems outside of us is going to create the scenario where we feel now overwhelmed.

1:22:39And before we know it, we're right back in those old habits. So powerful. For everyone, the book is called How to Be the Lover You Seek, Break Cycles, Find Peace, and Heal Your Relationships. Dr. Nicole Lepera, the holistic psychologist on Instagram, if you don't follow already. Dr. Nicole, Nicole, thank you so much for giving us a masterclass on this. And like I said, we've dived into 1 % of what's inside the book. There is so much more inside this book. I highly recommend it. And I was very grateful that you included my testimonial on the back, which I very deeply in heart, felt very deeply in my heart to share with you.

1:23:18But I'm so grateful for everything you've shared today, all the insights. Thank you for going there with me on so many different pathways. I wanted to make sure, Nicole, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you'd love to share or anything that's on your heart right now that you feel compelled to share with the community? Well, I appreciate you asking. I appreciate, as always, Jay, your support. I did appreciate the opportunity to kind of go into a lot of aspects of my own journey in this conversation. So I'm hoping it was of service, of course, to everyone out there listening. And I thank you all for tuning in.

1:23:47Absolutely. Thank you, Dr. McCart. If you loved this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past. Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It grows where it's soft and green and vulnerable. This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given. And Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations.

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