PARIS JACKSON: “No Intervention Could Have Gotten Me Sober”

21:06And I think for people outside of that, it's not really for them. And, uh, and it is interesting. I've definitely spent several years where the sobriety has been celebrated and it's been, you know, this amazing piece of connection for me and these people that I love so deeply. And then I'll see maybe someone's reaction that doesn't understand and maybe someone's reaction that's on the outside of it. And there is a lot of judgment and there is a lot of like drug addicts. And that was definitely a bit startling for me. One of the first times I really experienced that kind of reaction because this whole time once I actually went from seeking recovery to being in recovery I've started seeing it as my this is my superpower like I now see that my experience can benefit other people my deepest moments of suffering once I transform them and alchemize them they can become very potent pieces of medicine for other people what a gift and so that's been my perspective and then when I hear the exact opposite from someone else it's like whoa you know it's very uh startling i remember a few years back we had tom holland on the show and he

22:18Jay Shetty:was talking about his sobriety journey and the reason i just saw him this morning and so i was thinking about it again and just how many messages we still get years later on with people saying hearing his story has helped them on their journey yeah and i can imagine with the same as you're sharing right now i you know look forward to the messages you'll get and i'll get and that we'll get for the show that people hearing your story will help them. Because I think when you're in those moments, I imagine, as you said, you feel extremely lonely, you feel depressed. I've heard people say things to me like, you just feel like you shouldn't be there.

22:53Jay Shetty:Things could be better without you. There's so many thoughts that kind of spiral in your mind. What would you say were the most common thoughts that came into your mind at the time? A lot of terminal uniqueness, no one understands kind of thing, which is almost humorous at this point because a lot of sober people that I talk to have had that at some point. And that is what separates us. We look for the differences as opposed to the similarities. And it is through hearing other people's stories. I've been in situations where I'm talking to someone that has never had a drink or a drug, and they've never even smoked a cigarette.

23:26And they're trying to tell me about my heroin addiction. I'm not going to listen to them like respectfully you don't know what you're talking about so I'm just not going to take but then I hear someone whose story is so much worse than mine or you know they've they've uh just seen more and been through more and done more if they can get it I can get it kind of a thing it's a tricky line to kind of tread as far as talking about these things on on podcasts or interviews and things like that because I by no means want to be like a spokesperson for sobriety, but sharing my story is something that has helped me.

24:05Hearing other people's stories has helped me. So if I can pay that forward, absolutely. But I also, like, I don't want to be a spokesperson. I don't give advice. I'm not going to tell someone to not do a drug because I needed to, to get to a certain point. And thank God I did. So I'm not going to try and rob someone of their experience. It's very much like you go and do your own thing. If you need to go do research, that's, you know, that's your life.

24:30Jay Shetty:When drugs started to first become a part of your life, did the adults in your life notice and try and intervene or help and support? I hid it really well. Even my self-harm I hid for a couple of years before my family found out. And that was like one of my first addictive kind of things. That was one of the first like compulsive addictions that I fell into was cutting and occasionally burning. I'm pretty good at hiding it in the beginning and then it starts to get kind of unmanageable. There were some people that, you know, tried to step in, you know, I would deny it. I'd find a way out of it as we do.

25:05We're slippery folk, addictive people. Yeah. I mean, eventually I got to, there was an intervention. I was sent away. It didn't do anything. You know, I wasn't ready. I was still convinced that I'm like, okay, well, yeah, I'll go because I need help getting off of heroin. So the doctor can give me subs, but you know, I'm still going to drink and smoke weed. Didn't think that, you know, that was going to be a problem, which it was.

25:26Jay Shetty:And at that time, as far as I know, you were sent to one of the centers in Utah. That was after a suicide attempt. So that was when I was 15. The rehab my family sent me to. I was 20 years old, I think. But yeah, Utah. I was 15. That was after a suicide attempt. And CPS was like, you guys got to send her away because she's already been to the psych ward a couple of times. What was the experience like at those centers in Utah? I think we've all heard horrific stories about them and I've not personally interacted with them in any way. And so I wonder for those of us who don't know, how would you describe them?

26:03Jay Shetty:What was that experience like? I mean, each one was different. You know, I know some other people that I've been to, ones that were not as bad or worse. I definitely left with more PTSD than I went in there with and had nightmares for two or three years about going back after I finally left. Because I was there for a couple months. shy of two years. I was one of the lucky ones where we didn't experience physical or sexual abuse, but there was definitely a lot of psychological, emotional, spiritual abuse that happened there. Yeah, like pitting the clients against each other kind of a thing, learning how to like, oh, I can't trust my roommate.

26:40I can't trust my therapist. I can't trust anybody here because anything you say could put you on the lowest level and could, you know, and you can't really call your family and tell them because they're listening and they will, you know, call your family and be like, don't listen to her. She's lying to you. And then you get a consequence for, you know, and you're on meds and you're zombied out. And it's just, you know, it's, it's, uh, it was rough. You have to learn how to kind of play the game if you want to get out.

27:05Jay Shetty:How's that meant to help anyone? Rehabilitation, I think is a case by case, whether it's like a young kids treatment center or a drug addiction rehab or a, you know, jail or prison or institution, like rehabilitation is kind of a case by case. And I don't know that you can just blanket something and just cover everybody with one method. Did that affect how you trusted people later on in life after that experience? Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And it's a shame because I found a lot of beauty in finally learning how to trust. Talk to me about that journey with trust specifically. When you're in that position where you don't know if you can trust your therapist, your roommate the people who are meant to be helping you and supporting you yeah how does one even go back to beginning to trust someone else outside of that space it was definitely a lot to layer on top of an already existing issue with trust as far as you know people having ulterior motives and trying to take advantage and and take but i think it was just something that happened slowly over time yeah time and consistency and and i've been lucky enough to have some people that have just shown up over and over and over like my best friend of 10 years just showing up showing up showing up in every situation yeah i think it's it's for with the people that i do trust it's it's something that you know takes time to build um i've heard this saying that it's lost in gallons and gained back in drops and um yeah drop by drop how do you define And a good friend.

28:44Integrity. The integrity has to match a certain level. The humor is very important. And just the sense of home, I think. I've really whittled my friend group down over the last few years. And the group that the people in my life right now are the most incredible human beings I've ever met. Just really high integrity, really loyal, really funny, just salt of the earth human beings. that I can call and they'll show up, you know, and they can call me and I'll show up. I'm multiple people's emergency contact and I have a few on mine and it's one of the most priceless things. You know, money can't really buy that.

29:28Jay Shetty:Yeah. You want the friend who gets a call at 2 AM and they're there for you. Oh, I'm packing a bag. I'll be there. You know. I'm so happy that you found that. I feel like everyone deserves that. And as you said, that feeling of home. Everyone's born in a home and then spends their whole life trying to find belonging. And it's a strange thing to say. It's like, it's weird. You're born with families, you make friends at school or at some place, and you're still searching for belonging the whole time. And so when you kind of find it as an adult, it's pretty rare and spectacular. What is it that then led to you wanting to even become sober?

30:02Jay Shetty:I mean, you're saying at 15, you've had a suicide attempt. Yeah, I've had quite a few of those. What led you to that? What led you to want to get to that place? Depends on which part of me you're asking. Because if you're asking the part of me that likes to take the zoomed out approach, that's tapped in the source and is seeing the bigger picture, what led me to that would be, you know, a divine soul contract that I signed up for and something that I chose to go through as a part of my journey. If you're asking me that's like down here on earth, really experiencing it, just untreated alcoholism, untreated drug addiction, untreated mental illness.

30:41It goes on for long.

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31:53Jay Shetty:Head to orangestheory.com on purpose to learn more and get your first class free. Orange Theory Fitness, helping people live longer, more vibrant lives. Terms and conditions apply. See webpage in studio for details. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. We talk a lot about intentional decision-making, and that extends to the practical stuff too, like making sure your coverage actually works for your life. State Farm is there to meet you where you are, and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan.

32:30Jay Shetty:Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state, coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods, where your back to school eats are sorted. First off, they have amazing quality standards with 300 food ingredients band storewide. No hydrogenated fats, nothing in store has high fructose, corn syrup, and there's a great selection of allergen-friendly options too. Pick up your easy breakfast of frozen waffles, pack the lunchboxes with organic seedless grapes and baby carrots.

33:06Jay Shetty:Then plate up thin crust pizzas and a family-style salad for dinner after a long day of learning. Shop, back-to-school must-haves at Whole Foods Market, in-store or online. It becomes unbearable. I appreciate the parts because I think we all have multiple viewpoints and stories of why we end up where we have. And you're so right that there's the version of you, like you said, zoomed out that can see the bigger picture, that can see the journey you've been on, that can see that that was a choice for growth and transformation, i.e. not wanting to take anyone's experience away. And then, of course, there's the reality of it.

33:39Jay Shetty:What was the point that you were like, I can't keep living like this? Like, I can't keep doing this to myself. there were many that led to the attempts uh but when i got sober it was i had like a month off a month and a half off of heroin i'd like detoxed at home i knew someone that had you know suboxone and so we were going to take the strips and we were going to detox on our own but i didn't realize i was on fentanyl so i took it too early precipitated withdrawals like you know fetty's got legs. So it was very much, I was like, okay, well, let me just see if I can get through this without subs because then I'm going to have to taper off the subs.

34:17Let's just cold turkey this. But it wasn't cold turkey because I was still drinking a lot. I was doing, you know, Coke and I was smoking a lot of weed. And after about a month of not sleeping, because that's what happens, I was maybe getting an hour or two at night, maybe three if I'm lucky. And I had a suicide attempt that didn't work, which I don't know the science of it. You know, I could be wrong, but I don't think as someone that had a tolerance whatsoever for benzos at the time, having taken an entire bottle mixed with an entire bottle of vodka, I feel like that should have worked. And so when I just woke up hours later, I was like, fuck.

34:57That was one of the first attempts where I'm like, fuck, it didn't work. Because a lot of people are like relieved when it didn't work or they feel regret the second they, you know, attempt it. I was so upset when it didn't work. And then a few weeks later, I had like a proper bottom with alcohol where it was just like, my behavior scared me into getting sober. And it was, for a long time, went back and forth between this place of I can't be here anymore. And well, it's not my time. So I'm stuck here. And I can try all these methods, but they're still not going to work. And if that didn't work, then you know i would run through all these other ideas and i would see how it would go south where it's like oh well you know i could try and hang myself but then it's you know it's not going to work and i'm going to end up like you know kind of paralyzed or like i would just think of all of these ideas and then how it would go wrong and i'm like i'm stuck here like it's not my time i'm not going to be allowed to leave unless it's my time and so i have to wait it out and i didn't know that there was this secret, very special third place of, oh, this is great.

35:59And we love being here. And, you know, the good or the bad, the light and the heavy, these are all things that are part of the experience. And I'm here to experience the entire spectrum. Like I'm here for the whole enchilada. I want all the feelings because that's what I'm taking with me when I leave. You know, it's all the feelings, all the experiences.

36:21Jay Shetty:I feel like that requires a lot of bravery and courage to accept that? I don't know if I can take credit for that. I think it's, you know, it's something that happened through, you know, spiritual experiences, really. Were there any experiences that made that clear to you? Because I feel like sobriety, the journey to sobriety has so many ups and downs. There were so many. I had what's kind of called like an educational variety kind of spiritual awakening that is not like a boom white light experience. Like I didn't have this crazy fall out of bed, hear a booming voice kind of an experience. It was something that happened slowly over a period of time and I learned how to pray and I didn't know what I was talking to.

37:04But I think it was just the willingness to develop something. Over time, I started with prayer and meditation and just getting into these practices blind and just being like, well, you know, I'm out of ideas. Let's try this. I started noticing more and more little coincidences that I couldn't explain, more and more synchronicities, more and more God shots that eventually piled up into a mountain of evidence of like, there's got to be something, you know. And one of them was a really cool experience that I had. I think I had about three years sober at the time, or I was about to get three years sober.

37:44And I had heard someone say, I think it was like a friend of a friend say like, oh, you're higher power or God or whatever you believe in. The answer or the universe, the answer to your prayers is never no. It's always yes, not yet, or I have a better idea. At this point, I had almost three years sober. And I did a prayer and I had like this, it wasn't like my life flashed before my eyes, but it was all the times since getting sober that my higher power was like, I have a better idea for you. And it was very much like, okay, keep trusting the process because life is becoming more and more expansive.

38:23Jay Shetty:Yeah. Your song Evermore is, I believe, inspired by that relationship with yeah it is and it's you know it sounds like a love song and i like being vague enough so that things can apply to everyone but that is that is very much a uh a love letter to source you know great spirit god whatever you want to call it the thing that has a thousand names the thing that is the unnameable thing you know yeah but you said you wrote it like a love song like it feels yeah it's like a i felt like i could hear it in like a 90s rom-com yeah and it's so corny and it's so So the sky is blue and like it's very, but that's sometimes how it feels.

39:03Like, you know, when I, when I really developed like a conscious contact with, with something that made me feel safe, it was the first time I'd ever truly felt safe. So it was like, oh, the sky is bluer.

39:13Jay Shetty:What did your prayer look like? What did it sound like? It's often changing and it depends on, on what it is. But typically it's kind of just giving, giving it over being like, well, my, my best thinking landed me in some pretty dark places and landed me in the gutter. So why don't you take the reins, whatever you are? And, you know, I'll tap in right before a show, right before I, you know, and it's more like, please help me set aside all these things. Help me set aside like my need to feel pretty or funny or talented or all these like insecure. Help me set aside my insecurities. Help me set aside my, you know, these things that I see as needs and, you know, just use me as your instrument as I use my instruments.

39:57If I'm here for a reason, and if you gave me these songs for a reason, help me just play them.

40:01Jay Shetty:How do you make sense of this idea of handing it over, but then still taking action and responsibility? Talk to me about that balance between surrender and sincere action. I think a lot of it has to do with putting in the work and staying out of the results. I think that's a big thing. And not trying to control outcomes. I think control can be a tricky, slippery slope. You know, I've been recently trying out different things, trying out, you know, more tools of like exploring similarities between like Christ consciousness and Nirvana, also looking into the Tao a little bit. And I really like the, have the patience to wait until the mud settles and the water is clear to make decisions.

40:46And so it's kind of like, okay, let me take a step back, give it 24 hours or give it however much time, really tap in, check in with myself. Does this feel icky? Does this feel clean? Does this feel good? You know, and then I also have people that I can counsel with. I have, you know, guides, I have friends, I have people that I can kind of lean on and be like, I feel like this is where my intuition is telling me to go. And if someone's like, that's a bad idea, then for sure we're going to take that into consideration and add that to the pot of things that we know. But a lot of it has had to do with learning how to be in right relationship with myself and just waiting for the right indicated action to arise, I guess.

41:24Jay Shetty:Yeah. I feel like it's a constant dance. It's a constant dance to do that. And I'm guessing that, you know, talking about relationships, I was thinking about in your song Stitched, there's a lyric that I liked. You said, how your soul was stitched into mine with your heart eating into mine. Talk to me about this lyric because fascinated by, we're talking about godly relationships, spiritual relationships, but then we have relationships on the planet. Talk to me about that specific lyric. I believe in multiple soulmates. I believe that a soulmate is not necessarily someone that you are in a romantic, intimate relationship with.

42:00I think parents can be soulmates. I think siblings can be soulmates. I think your arch nemesis in this lifetime is a soulmate because that is a great lesson of yours that maybe that arch nemesis was your mother in another life. Maybe it was your father in another life. Maybe it was your husband in another life. That's just my belief. And I know it's wacky, but that's just what feels right and makes sense to me. And this song was written about someone that I felt like we had experienced every type of human relationship you could have in all of our other lifetimes prior to this one. And so it was a very deeply rooted one.

42:35And it was not that I loved this person more than other loves, but it was different. It was very one of a kind and it did feel kind of like just stitching, which, you know, when not cared for the right way can become very codependent, can be, you know, especially ours was a drug fueled relationship. And yeah, I definitely felt like his heart ate mine.

42:57Jay Shetty:I was going to ask you that. What's the difference between a relationship when you're sober versus when you're drug related? Oh, I mean, well, that depends if we're talking about emotionally sober or simply physically sober because I definitely got into relationships when I was physically sober and didn't really have emotional sobriety. And that can become a consuming relationship in itself where the person becomes the drug. That's not healthy either. Experiencing a emotionally sober relationship, again, has to do with being in right relationship with myself and has to do with being intentional with everything I do and being incredibly honest with myself and incredibly honest and transparent with people around me.

43:36Jay Shetty:I love how you just define the difference between physically sober and emotionally sober. Big difference. You know, I know there's some people that will claim to be sober and then they're getting in fistfights with their roommate. And it's like, it's awesome that you're not on drugs, man. Yeah. That's good for you. Yeah. What surprised you most about sobriety? All of it. And I said this when I got five years sober, which was like a year and a half ago. Like, I can't believe I almost missed it all. because my life has become so much more opened up. You know, I have more trust and more intimacy and more closeness with the people in my life.

44:12And people rely on me. People can rely on me. And that's really special.

44:18Jay Shetty:Was there a time when you felt like you really let people down? Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. I feel like that might be the universal experience for people in active addiction. Was there anyone that you felt like you really let down? My younger self. more than anyone?

44:40Oh, fuck. It's a good question. I've done a lot of, so much therapy. I went into a really deep depression around three years sober and tried all the things, like the conveyor belt of medication, probably over a dozen I think the SSRIs the MRIs like all of them and you know within a span of 18 months went to five different institutions you know Hoffman on site the glass house twice you know ended up checking back into my rehab that I got sober at I was like do you guys have a bed they were like we have your old room and I was like great I'm going right now I'll be there

45:27Jay Shetty:20 minutes. And I've done a lot of inner child work. I've done a lot of inner teen work because those two girls are very different. They want different things. They have very different approaches to life. It wasn't until kind of this last year, I've really learned how to listen, differentiate between which part of me is speaking, hear what the need is, and then learn how to meet it myself, which in the past would be, you know, if it was little P grasping for someone to fix this, ease this, you know, fill this hole, right? Void. And then, you know, teen P was very much like, everybody get away from me, don't touch me, you know?

46:15Jay Shetty:So it's learning how to listen and be like, okay, what's the need? Okay, she wants space and doesn't want to be touched. Okay, why don't we go take 10 minutes? Let's communicate. We're going to take 10 minutes. We're going to take a breath. We're going to tap into whatever. Maybe smoke, maybe give her a cigarette and meet the need ourselves. You know, you ask about healthy relationships and sobriety and that's been one of the biggest things that's allowed me to start having that And also learning how to have uncomfortable conversations, learning how to step out of the discomfort, say the hard thing, say the honest thing, state the need.

46:56And it's done nothing but foster more intimacy and trust in all my relationships.

47:01Jay Shetty:What was it like to heal that relationship for your younger self and with your younger self? I think it's an ongoing process. I don't know that it's healed. It's more healed than it ever has been. and it's an ongoing process, there's something really profound in being able to say, like, I got you. We got out of that mess. We got out. I got you. And I'm sorry. Does it feel good to give yourself that forgiveness as well, though? Because it's almost like you're saying sorry, but you're also doing the forgiving. It's more grace than anything, and I don't think it comes from me. It's more grace than forgiveness.

47:43Jay Shetty:I feel like when I spent my three years as a monk, I did a lot of healing work. I did that from age 22 to 25. Amazing. 38 now. And two years ago, I went through something and I started to do therapy more in order to kind of look under the hood proactively to be like, what have I missed? What work have I not done? Talking about this idea of that you're never healed and you're always doing the work. And then something happened in the last 12 months and I was like, I was looking for this and I couldn't find it. And I had to go through something in order for it to be uncovered. And so it was just this fascinating thing of like, I thought I'd work through this pattern and I thought I'd look through every nook and cranny and every crevice and every little thing.

48:27Jay Shetty:And I thought I'd been to every corner and figured it out. And then something happened. I was like, oh gosh, I missed it. And it was like this really fascinating experience You're proactively looking under the hood, thinking I would be able to avoid something in the future, only to realize that it doesn't work that way. You know the idea of the wheel? Yeah, of course. The spiral, really? Please explain. Yeah, for those at home watching. It's this idea where sometimes we think we're going around in circles. It's like, oh, it's this again. And it is, but it's different each time. And the idea is the more we go through it, the more we learn.

48:59And instead of a circle, it's more like a spiral. I know about looking under the hood and I know about lifting every little tchotchke instead of leaving no stone unturned. And something that happened last year was I kind of just kind of hit this wall with therapy where I'm just like, I'm just going to take a break from therapy because I've been doing so much for so long. recently I started seeing a behavioral specialist for my OCD because that's been like the main thing that I feel really needs to be looked at I have you know thank god remission with depression you know one day at a time and and my sobriety so I do things daily to keep my to maintain my sobriety but um yeah I'd reached this point in in my therapy where I'd kind of just plateaued because I I'd looked under every stone and you know I kind of envisioned it as like a like a trailer of like music gear like we've got all this and I've just looked on there's not a single piece of dust on anything in there because I've looked at all of it now I want to learn how to just unhitch the fucking trailer how do I you know that's what I want to learn and and I've also found that there's a lot of stuff that you know was born through experience so it needs to be healed through experience and that's a really beautiful gift that relationships offer us because if I have like attachment stuff.

50:13I have issues with attachment that's talking about it's not going to really do anything. And actually similar with addiction stuff, just talking about it with a therapist isn't going to do anything. I need to take action. There needs to be some kind of experiential process for healing to occur.

50:29Jay Shetty:This episode is brought to you by Walden University. Balancing work, life, and big goals isn't easy. That's why Walden University helps working professionals get the W with tempo learning so you can earn your degree at your own pace while gaining practical skills through real-life scenarios. You'll also learn from faculty with real-world experience and have support start to finish. Walden University, set a course for change. Ready to start? Visit waldenu.edu today. Certified to operate by Shev, tempo learning, available in select programs. What were those actions and experiences that you feel started to unravel some of that healing or the ones that you practice now?

51:13I'm constantly picking up and putting back down or swapping out my spiritual toolkit. That's the biggest thing. Therapy has been an incredible tool. I feel like I've taken bits and pieces from all of these institutions that I've been to. Because like I said, I went to five different institutions with five years sober. I had five years sober. I checked back into places because i'm like this i'm not okay you know and and um it's actually that time was what inspired the album cover because i actually did do ect yeah it was about yeah and i feel like there is something that i got from each experience because again my belief is that everything happens for a reason and it's not that those things didn't work it's that i'm taking what i can and taking what works and kind of leaving the rest from each experience and from each modality and from each, you know.

52:05There's certain things that, it's just a very simple tool. Hand on heart, like which chakra are my hands on? And how are we going to breathe? Like, oh, let's practice being gentle with myself. You know, that kind of, that's just a very simple tool that has carried me through a lot. The ECT therapy was because of a particular suicide attempt, is that right? It wasn't an attempt. It was, I got very close. I got very, very close, like centimeters away. And it was after I had felt like I had tried everything. And it was, I mean, like I said, the conveyor belt of medication, five different institutions, CBT, DBT, EMDR.

52:52I had done somatic. I had done experiential. I'd talked to the empty chair. I'd held the pillow. I had beaten the things with bats while screaming. Like I had done... so many things. TMS did help a little bit with the OCD, but it had no effect on my depression. The stellaganglion block was a very, do you know what that is? It's like a shot of lidocaine into a collection of nerves in your neck and it's supposed to help with PTSD and kind of reset your nervous system. I got like relief for a week and then I went back into the other side and got another week. And, you know, Hoffman gave me probably the longest stint of relief was I had like a couple months after Hoffman where I was really happy.

53:31And that was amazing. And something that I've learned with all things is integration is the number one thing. If I'm not integrating the things that I learned from these places and these experiences, I'm going to resort back to how I was feeling before. So without integration, yeah, I kept, you know, just getting worse and worse and worse. And once TMS didn't work, my psychiatrist was like, he was like, it's not as barbaric as it used to be. They use general anesthetic. You're knocked out when they,

53:59Jay Shetty:when they shock you, you know, for anyone who doesn't know what ECT is, can you explain what the experience is and how it's meant to heal? Yeah, you go in and I have a lot of metal. So I had to replace all of the metal in my face and, you know, with, uh, plastic earrings and, and yeah, you go in, you got your hospital gown. Um, they knock you out, strap you down, and put a bike guard in your mouth, electrocute you. It helps with the neuroplasticity in your brain. If I'm not mistaken, it still is the leading, most effective form of depression treatment. I did nine sessions in three weeks. Is it painful?

54:40Jay Shetty:Are you not feeling anything? The first couple of times it is because they're still figuring out how much Tylenol or Toradol to give you afterwards. I'm very anal about if I'm going to be going under, what are you giving me what are you not you know I've had experiences where you know they gave me something that felt too good and it's like okay let's you know daily maintenance keep the sobriety going you know so I definitely ask multiple multiple multiple times and I have I have OCD so it tells me to but yeah I mean the the first time I woke up and it was it was the most sharp pain I'd ever experienced in the side of my head like it was and what is that pain what do they tell you that is?

55:19Well, I hope you did soreness from getting electrocuted.

55:22Jay Shetty:I mean, that sounds so scary. Yeah, it was. And the side effects are gnarly. I mean, I definitely had days completely not in my head at all. I'd have, you know, friends visit me and I don't remember even seeing them. I don't remember them coming by. I have evidence that a friend came by because she brought me a bag of vapes before I quit vaping. But I don't remember her being here at all. I had. Amnesia was one of the primary side effects of that. Was there no part of you that was scared or you just felt that was the last resort? I'm very much a lead with the chin kind of person. And so yes, there's some fear.

56:00The biggest fear is what if this doesn't work? There was definitely a point where I just had to stop because I was responding to the treatments and it was working. But then there was a discussion of like, well, you're either going to be on these two medications for the rest of your life or you're going to have to come back once a month and continue getting shocked for the rest of your life. And I'm like, that's not going to fucking work for me. And I think, yeah, little bits and pieces of everything that I've gotten along the way over those courses, those last two and a half years, taking everything I possibly could and just completely flipping my life on its ass and being like, how do I do this in a way that is sustainable?

56:33And a lot of it had to do with holistic health. You know, I do believe that a lot of Western medicine is educated in disease and not health. The disease is the focus. And so I'm like, how do I go, you know, the other way? And so it's a lot of, to get my sleep in order was a lot of saffron and two kiwis before bed at night. Like that completely changed my sleep. Somatic exercising, Pilates, like finding the hardest gym in LA and being like, I'm going to I do two sessions in a row three times a week, which I am a bit of an over. I overdo it sometimes. Rock climbing as much as possible because that is incredible for my body, incredible for my core.

57:15Really being right with my body. It's meditative. It's a puzzle that I can figure out. It's highly rewarding. It's highly confidence boosting. It's highly humbling.

57:23Jay Shetty:Are you doing that outdoors or indoors? Both. That's what I mean about humbling. So going from a top rope climber, yeah, I'm a 5 '11B climber. That's pretty fucking good to like lead and then having to like losing a grade and having to build myself back up, switching the lead and then going outdoors and being like, oh, I'm not a 5 '11B climber at all. I'm like a 5 '7". That is very humbling and also so rewarding. That's been a huge part of my life, picking up new spiritual tools. My animals are a huge part of my nervous system getting regulated. figuring out you know which cptsd symptoms are the most prominent how do i work with those things i'm very big fan of energy work acupuncture traditional chinese medicine like just all the things that are health oriented as opposed to oh well this is a disease let's treat the symptoms i quit vaping over a year ago i did start rolling cigarettes again a few months ago quit caffeine for like six months, which really helped the sleep.

58:25Processed sugar was a big thing. And like, I still love sweets. I love desserts. Yeah. No, I mean, I will go to Erwan and I'll get a chocolate cake, but I get it from there because, you know, they're not going to be using, they're using all organic products. So every now and then, yeah, okay, I'll do something to have a sweet tooth. It's really bad, but where am I getting it from and what's in it is a huge, huge thing.

58:48Jay Shetty:I've used sugar as a drug for far too long. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's eight times more addictive than cocaine. And I think they did scans on like what happens when you take like a narcotic and how it lights up one piece of your brain and then sugar lighting up the entire brain is, uh, yeah, it's pretty, pretty shocking. I was really surprised when I saw that. And then also part of me was not surprised at all. and it's in everything. Yeah, I've definitely over the years until I developed a healthier relationship with sugar. Now I don't do any refined sugars like six days a week, but I was using it as a drug easily.

59:23Oh yeah.

59:24Jay Shetty:It sounds crazy to say that because people are like, what do you mean by that? I'm like, well, no, I'm using it to sedate, numb, get through something difficult, relax your emotions, whatever else it may be. And just because it's legal doesn't mean And it's, you know. There's a lot of things right now that are legal that maybe shouldn't be. How long have you been writing this album for now? I wrote a good portion of it during the depressive spell. Some of it was being recorded right before I went into ECT. So I had the idea for the cover like a year and a half ago. It was a long process. And then some of the stuff like got re-recorded this year.

59:59and Stitch was written within a span of, you know, 60 minutes, 59 minutes, while the new vocals on Maker were being comped. And it was very much like, oh, let's try and squeeze this on the album last minute. And we did, and we got it mixed in time. So yeah, some of the songs are two years old. Some of them are a few months old.

1:00:22Jay Shetty:What was the most recent suicide attempt you had? The most recent attempt was right before I got sober. Right. But I did get very close. to actually going for it right before ECT. Which was about a year and a half ago. Yeah, somewhere around then. Was that scary to be back there once you were sober? It was scarier for the people around me. Because? It's a familiar place for me. But it's, I mean, it's scary for the people around me. And I have spoken to the people that were closest to me and, you know, saw me the day that I almost did it. And I definitely feel like there's trauma there. and um it's been a long but very rewarding journey getting to to where i'm at now and also with an understanding that that may happen again there's no predicting you know it's it's everything's temporary nothing lasts forever i think happiness is temporary i think pain is temporary i think all sadness is temporary and so knowing that i may get sad again and i may go through a dark time again hopefully will be bringing the information with me this time.

1:01:28If there is a way out, you've done it before, you will do it again, which I didn't have with me the last time, really. I had experienced depression for a lot of my life, but it hadn't gotten that bad before. So I do have this kind of new found understanding of kind of how to get through it. and um again there's this piece of me where it's just like bring it on if i got to go through it again i'll go through it again because it's it's it's gonna help someone so the familiarity is

1:01:57Jay Shetty:actually helpful now almost yeah i've been here before yeah i know i can get out of it yeah i know what to do i know what my resources are my spiritual toolkit my friends my support system it's almost like when we do hard things in life and everyone's done hard things everyone who's alive and living today has done hard things. We just don't see them as hard. We just see them as our life. And so we just think we've lived. And it's really helpful when you can actually look at your life and realize I can do hard things and I've done hard things and remember those when new hard moments come around, because you actually feel a sense of empowerment to think I've lived through this before.

1:02:35Jay Shetty:And I think a lot of us don't give ourselves enough grace, as you said, and give ourselves enough credit because we just think, oh, that's my life. It wasn't that hard. it was okay yeah but recognizing those moments gives us so much more fuel to push forward in tough times yeah what's giving you fuel and empowerment today what's like what's propelling you forward especially now that you're on tour the album's coming out like a lot of it is is all these things that i've been doing um almost daily to maintain my happiness and maintain you You know, being very intentional with everything is so rewarding that those rewards are just like, oh, this is, I mean, just keep going.

1:03:20But then obviously, like, the music is so rewarding. I'm on tour right now. Part of it is a, you know, very small headlining tour. And then the other part is I'm, you know, playing support for The Pretty Reckless, which is a band I listened to in high school. And I'm also, you know, playing songs from this album that I made for the version of me that was in high school that would have liked this stuff. You know, like she was very, she loves the Smashing Pumpkins and she loved Nirvana and she loves, you know, this very 90s kind of thing. And I'm like, here's, you know, I got to make this album for her and anyone else that felt that way when they were that age or even now.

1:03:56And there's something very nostalgic about it all. And I mean, you use that word. That's one of my favorite things. Even like my. I didn't even know that. Photography is a hobby of mine. And, you know, every photographer kind of has their own thing. My best friend is a phenomenal photographer. She shot the album cover art. She shot all my promos. She shot the inside slip for the vinyl. And her primary thing is more like liminal space, kind of like back rooms. My thing is more like nostalgia. And that's just what feels good sonically, what looks good visually, what just kind of resonates the most with me.

1:04:28Jay Shetty:Why was it so important to have ECT on the front cover of the album? shock value literally yeah i don't know why i said i mean it felt nostalgic when i listened to it and it was just i was like i'm glad i shared that with you because yeah just it was my initial it was my immediate experience of it paris it's been such a it's been really refreshing talking to you i feel like i can tell that you're in the work oh yeah and that's like really beautiful it's such an endearing thing when someone's able to talk about the work when they're in the work as opposed to a before and after which is what we kind of try and present as a western standpoint of the work i always feel as you said that the work is cyclical and ascending and not it never stops it never stops and so when i'm hearing you talk today i feel like you've like taken us into a moment when the work is still churning and you're still processing and i find that to be a true act of courage and vulnerability because it's easier to be on the other side, so to speak, even though it doesn't really exist and be like, this is what I went through and this is what I've learned.

1:05:35Jay Shetty:And it can sound kind of romantic and poetic, but it doesn't necessarily always feel true. Yeah. And also, I mean, it's like, did I get out on the other side of what that was? Yes. Yes. And in order to stay there, I have to daily implement things. I mean, it's the same thing with addiction. It's kind of like this idea of daily reprieve and not reprieve in the sense of relief, but reprieve in the sense of like the postponing of one's execution date, of like daily, one day at a time, I am doing the things that I know keep me good, whether that is my mental health, whether that is my drug addiction, whether that is, you know, being a good friend, being a good family member, being a good sister.

1:06:21What are the things that I can do daily that are going to keep me good. And I could say, yeah, I made it on the other end. I can like chill out now. And then I might go backwards. You know, cruising is, in physics, it doesn't work. It means you're going downhill.

1:06:37Jay Shetty:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you're either growing or dying. Yeah. What's the one thing you'd like people to know about addiction? On a human level, if you don't share my beliefs as far as like, oh yeah, we come down, we incarnate, we've chosen these things. I chose my name. I chose my parents. I chose my traumas, I chose my zodiac sign, whatever. If that belief doesn't align with you, then I would say, you know, that's not something people choose on a human level. Like my soul chose this thing, but I didn't wake up one day and be like, I'm going to be a drug addict. And a lot of the things that, you know, may not be the drug addict's fault at some point, it is that drug addict's responsibility to clean up their mess, clean up their side of the street and, you know, make amends.

1:07:22Jay Shetty:Yeah, but it's not their fault. It's kind of like a tornado kind of tearing through a town. When the tornado finally stops, it's like you're going outside and be like, oh, well, I don't see, I don't see. You're looking at all the calamity and you're like, well, I don't see any problems here. You know, it's kind of like, clean it up. At some point there has to be, you know, responsibility taken. But faults, I don't know. I don't know about that part. And what's the one thing you'd like people to know about sobriety that they might miss? Both sobriety and healing are not linear. And it's a day at a time.

1:07:58Jay Shetty:Paris, is there anything I haven't asked you that you wish I did? No, but I want to say thank you for being so respectful and safe. And this has been a really special container. So thank you for facilitating that. Of course. Thank you. We end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum. I'll probably get you to break it, but I try. I start there and then I get too curious. Full send. So, Paris Jackson, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? If there's going to be criticism and misunderstanding, regardless of what you do and what you say and how you are, then you might as well do what makes you happy, as long as you're not causing harm.

1:08:47Jay Shetty:Great answer. Question number two, what's the worst advice you've ever heard or received? Don't trust anyone. Don't trust anyone? That's the worst advice I've ever gotten. Because? some of the most beautiful life experiences have come from trust because trust fosters safety and intimacy and intimacy and safety fosters healing i love that can agree with you more such a need question number three how do you decide to trust someone time and consistency it's the only way yeah you listen your intuition too question number four tell me your most spiritual belief and your most skeptical belief? Or take one belief and debate them on both sides?

1:09:29My most spiritual belief? Everything can be spiritual. The deepest, most painful, I said this earlier, the most painful moments of suffering in my life have been alchemized. And once alchemized, become medicine. That's spiritual. That is a spiritual experience. It hurts, and it's that heavy, hard-to-mulch energy. but it it becomes magic you know um and my least your most skeptical thought who's to say

1:10:03Jay Shetty:fifth and final question paris we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow what would it be okay i have three of these oh wow okay can i share all people usually struggle with it yeah i'd love all three the first one is if you want to be a parent a parent you have to apply for a license that is a brilliant law. I love that one. Hot take. Second one is I want there to be more regulation on the poison they're spraying on organic produce. And the third one is I want to match the laws that there are in other countries.

1:10:35There's other countries that some of the chemicals we put in our food are banned in other countries. I'm trying to match that. And I have a bunch of opinions on the school system, on the justice system, on rehabilitation. I have so many views on that.

1:10:48Jay Shetty:But at some point, I will go for another hour. But yeah. Those are three of the best laws I've ever had. Now, anytime anyone ever asks, like, what did anyone else say? I'll just name all three of yours. Those are brilliant. Bryce Jackson, I'm so excited for you. I'm excited for everyone to listen to the happiest day of my life. Hope it gives them that nostalgic, cathartic, healing feeling. Thank you for the trust. Thank you for joining me on my platform today and giving my audience an opportunity to hear about your story and your own words. and I hope this is the first of many interactions we get to have.

1:11:19Jay Shetty:So thank you so much. Thank you, Jay. Yeah, thank you.