Rick Rubin ON: Why Unconventional Methods Lead to Success & The Secret to Genuinely Love What You Do

29:41There is no higher form. Yeah, and that's what you see so much in nature around us. I've always found like the sun is just selflessly serving and giving, and you see a bush of flowers or you see a tree that's growing fruits. And again, it's providing shade and fruit and it's just serving. And it's interesting how when you call it a devotional act, the idea that it's a service, it's an offering, as you said. Absolutely. In that language. And even an offensive song is that to someone, to someone, it's like I worked with the band Slayer and Slayer were a very controversial, aggressive band. And the people who came to see them didn't come to see them filled with hate.

30:27They came to see them filled with love. And for many of the people in the audience, maybe the only experience of love they had was connecting over Slayer. You know, there were people in the audience who seemed like, other than this thing to devote themselves passionately to, seemed like often hopeless people. and for them to have something that they love was beautiful to witness. This episode is brought to you by 8sleep. I have to admit, I used to have this old mattress that wasn't the best. It was low quality and so uncomfortable and it made me really hot at night, which was not really helpful when trying to get good sleep.

31:10Did you know that temperature is one of the most important factors in improving your sleep quality? When you wake up in the middle of the night or feel extra groggy in the morning, temperature is almost always to blame. Why? While traditional mattresses trap heat throughout the night, science has shown that your body temperature actually needs to drop in the early and middle part of your sleep and rise in the morning so that you can fall asleep fast and get more deep sleep. The pod cover by 8 sleep fits on any bed like a fitted sheet. The pod cover will improve your sleep by automatically adjusting the temperature on each side of the bed, based on you and your partner's individual needs.

31:52It can cool down and warm up and adjusts based on the phases of your sleep and the environment that you're in. My 8 Sleep mattress has been a total game changer for me. Not only is it super comfortable, but the temperature control technology has improved my quality of life in so many ways. I'm sleeping better, I feel more refreshed in the morning, and my mental health has even gotten a boost. They really go above and beyond to create innovative products that actually make a difference in people's lives. The temperature control system is just the tip of the iceberg. The mattress also tracks my sleep patterns, and I can even integrate it with my smart home system.

32:29I've never experienced sleep like this. Invest in the rest you deserve with the 8sleep pod. Go to 8sleep.com forward slash purpose and save$150 on the pod cover by 8sleep. That's the best offer you'll find, but you must visit 8sleep.com forward slash purpose for$150 off. 8sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU and Australia. This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given and Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations.

33:16Every time I travel, I find a part of myself I didn't know was missing. I remember being in this small town, completely unplugged, and for the first time in a while, I felt still. Travel does that. It grounds you, expands you, and connects you to something deeper. That's why I'm always looking for experiences that go beyond the typical. Chase Sapphire Reserve makes traveling a breeze, earning eight times points on all purchases through Chase Travel and granting access to Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. No matter my destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve.

33:55Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com forward slash sapphire reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank N.A. Member FDIC Subject to credit approval Terms apply Having the right people in your corner to support you is a great form of self-care Just like the friend who shows up to a housewarming party when you get that dream home celebrates your big promotion or goes with you on a walk to clear your mind State Farm is there to help you feel supported They have different coverage options, whether it be for your home, car, motorcycle, boat, or even RV. With a State Farm agent, you know someone is there to help protect what's important.

34:42And with so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you. So you can continue to celebrate all of life's biggest milestones. Go online at statefarm.com or use the award-winning app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

35:28or whatever it may be, and then work on stuff. And maybe their friends would listen, or they would listen. But it would take months before the audience heard it. Today, you could literally record something in three seconds, put it up, and get instant feedback. And so the feedback loop has got shorter. The time to create something has got shorter. It's easier to publish. And it's easier to get criticism or feedback. And so in that world, I find us looking so much at, like, what's the data saying of the trends of the pace of music or the frequency of music or whatever this episode of on purpose is brought to you by chase sapphire reserve i believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given and chase sapphire reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations every time i travel i find a part of myself I didn't know was missing.

36:24I remember being in this small town, completely unplugged, and for the first time in a while, I felt still. Travel does that. It grounds you, expands you, and connects you to something deeper. That's why I'm always looking for experiences that go beyond the typical. Chase Sapphire Reserve makes traveling a breeze, earning eight times points on all purchases through Chase Travel, and granting access to Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. No matter my destination, travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Discover more with Chase Sapphire Reserve at chase.com forward slash sapphire reserve.

37:06Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC, subject to credit approval, terms apply. One thing I've been reflecting on lately is how even the smallest choices can create a big impact over time. Whether it's choosing to spend a quiet night in to recharge or making a decision that brings you closer to a long-term goal, those moments of intention really matter. And when it comes to the choices we make with our money, that same mindset applies. I've learned that saving for the things that truly matter, like your first home or a reliable car, starts with small, thoughtful decisions. That's why I appreciate what State Farm is doing with their personal price plan It gives you the power to personalize your plan And create an affordable price that works for your life You can bundle your home and auto insurance in a way that supports your journey and your goals Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state coverage options are selected by the customer availability amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state and that's obviously only music but you could apply that to anything else do you think that that obsession in social media, music, movies of looking at it from a day to day even in movies now I find like we're just taking old IP and remaking stuff there's very little new IP you just keep seeing old IP finding it's way back in the TV and movies Do you say that that's creativity being stifled and is hampering creativity?

38:49Absolutely. And the beauty of it is because so much of what's being made is being made that way, that if we choose to make something not like that, it really stands out. This book, for example, it goes against all of the rules of publishing. From the beginning, I started the book eight years ago, And I met with publishers eight years ago, told them, this is my vision for this book. And all of them said, that's not the book anybody wants from you. That's not the book. And I said, well, it's the book I want to write. But surely you'll tell personal stories and you'll talk about Johnny Cash and you'll talk about...

39:27It's like, no, that's not what this is. It's a different book. And then I decided not to make a publishing deal then because even the ones who said they would go along with what my vision was, I could see that they really were fantasizing a different book than this book. I waited till the book was written and then said, do you want to publish this book? Not the book you think is the book that you want me to write, but this is the book that I wrote, that I wanted to write and wrote. Do you want to publish this book? And then when they read it, they're like, oh, yes, we'll publish this. That's brilliant.

40:03The reason I'm laughing so much is because I, with my first book, I had, I had thought of the title when I was writing it because it resonated with me because it was playful, but also curious. And, and it, and it felt true to me. It was the biggest reason why I chosen the title. It just, it felt like it was truth. And so the title I'd, I was proposing for my first book was Think Like a Monk. And I'd lived as a monk for three years. I'd studied under these incredible monks and I wanted to share what I'd learned from these masters who'd spent 40, 50 years living as monks. And so the book was almost an offering to them in the way you're saying it, a devotional act back to my teachers and guides.

40:46And every publisher was like, Jay, you should just write a book about like how to find your passion or like, you know, like what you love in life. And I was just like, there's beauty in that. There's nothing wrong with the book about how to find your passion. That's great. but that's not me. Like it's not my experience. It's not my book. And I remember 14 out of 17 imprints said no to that title. And we still went with it. And I couldn't be more happier because of that. But you're right. You can't control what the audience wants, even if you played every perfect metric in game. But we think we can.

41:22We think there's a part of us. And that's what I was going to ask you, that almost one end is saying, I am too worried about what people think. But the opposite almost is the ego of I can either control everything perfectly so that this becomes the number one chart topping song or I'm right and I know everything. Do you see that as a block to creativity and how do you purify that? I think the goal is to get to this. This is how I see it. I don't know what other people are going to think. I can't know what other people are going to think. But this is how I see it. And I want to show you how I see it.

42:01That's my purpose here on the planet, is to show you how I see it. And then I want to see how you see it. And where do they line up and where are they different? And that's how we make sense of the world. It's not one story. We all have a story. We all have something to say. And we can all learn from each other. And it's fascinating. It's like there's... There are the same set of chords used in all the songs, yet new songs keep coming. You know, there's someone who would say, all the songs have been written. It keeps happening. How do new jokes come up? It's like they're all the same, but then they're all different.

42:41And how we interpret it and it comes from each of our life experiences, which are different. We each have our own family origin story. we each have our own places that we grew up the things that we saw we could go uh and do the same thing together and then get back and discuss what we saw and see two completely different things and it's not like one of us is right one of us is wrong we're just noticing different things there's so many data points to take in and we each take in the ones that speak to us so true yeah you're reminding me of the famous words of mark twain of history never repeats itself but it always rhymes and that right that the idea of like yeah like the same song doesn't come back but there's a rhyme there's a there's the chord there's the but but it's still different and and there's some beautiful i want to point out to everyone because i i really do want you to get this book everyone is listening and watching right now uh and there's i've like dog-eared some pages that that have some really beautiful moments i really like this because one thing i really aim to do here on on the podcast but also in life is to try and give people really practical, tiny steps that they could take.

43:53And you do that artfully in this book. And there was this section here, which identifies why I brought it up now, because exactly what you said, breaking the sameness, right? And we think there's the sameness or completeness. And you give these beautiful examples of things people can do in order to do that. And I just want to touch on a couple of them. And would love to hear some examples from you that where it worked. So I really like this one Change the context So you say There are times when a singer doesn't connect with a song Like an actor whose line reading falls flat It can be helpful to create a new meaning Or an additional backstory to a song's lyrics A love song might sound different if sung to a long lost soulmate A partner of 30 years that you don't get along with A person you saw on the street but never spoke to or your mother Have you, I was intrigued Have you ever asked an artist to sing to someone real in their life, potentially, to get an emotion out?

44:52Yes. The first example that comes to mind is we were doing a cover of the song, The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face, with Johnny Cash. And he read the lyrics and he said, I don't know if I could sing this song. I don't really feel these words. And I said, well, how about if it's a devotional song to God? he's like i could sing that song and when he changed it to being not singing it to a woman but singing it to god he was able to tap into the energy of the song and he felt the vibration he felt he he felt the trueness to him in singing it wow yeah and so he but everyone still thought the song was about a woman.

45:39It is. Yeah, it is. The song is. Right, right, right, right, right. But there's a long history of songs that are love songs that could be to a woman or could be devotional. Yeah. It's interesting when songs walk this line or when we think we know what a song's about. Yeah. And we think it's about a romantic relationship when it's really about their child, you know, these devotional songs. So, and I'm sharing this with all of you listening and watching, because I know what you're sitting there thinking. Jay, I procrastinate, I overthink, I don't know how to focus, which we'll get into all of that.

46:13But I want to share these with you because I want you to try them out in your own area and the work you do. So change the environment. If we're looking for a performance of a different nature, it can help to change an element of the environment. Turning off the lights and playing in the dark can create a shift in consciousness and break the chain of sameness from performance to performance. Other shifts we've experimented with include having a singer hold the microphone instead of standing in front of it And recording early in the morning instead of at night To access a greater degree of variation, one vocalist chose to hang upside down while singing Could you tell us some examples of those?

46:52Because I find that, again, they're so simple, but we don't do it We will sit at the same desk every day, banging our head against the wall with the same tabs open on Google going, why can't I be creative? And it's often these physical, tangible changes around us. Yeah. And so it happened in the studio. It's not uncommon if we've played a song three or four or five or six times and it just feels like it's not getting better or we've reached a certain peak and it's really not all it could be, but then it starts not being as good. Usually when that happens, as soon as you reach whatever peak you're at and it starts coming down, we usually stop playing the song.

47:33But one thing we've done in the past also would be, again, changing the context, turning the lights off in the studio. It changes everything. It's not take seven. It's the first take in the dark. And it changes. It changes. The first album I recorded with the Red Hot Chili Peppers was their, I think it was their fifth album. And the albums that they had done before, they had all done in traditional recording studios. and they told me that none of those were good experiences. So we thought about what could we do for this experience to make it the first different one instead of the fifth if the first four were bad.

48:15Could have been the first good one in the same environment or we could change the environment and it would be the first of any kind. So we chose to rent this big house not far from here and record in this mansion. and that was very different than showing up to a recording studio with people working in an office and other musicians in other places. We had our whole own world that we created and some of the members of the band didn't leave during the entire, I don't know, six weeks or two months. They never left the premises. They just stayed there, slept there, ate there, worked there, and never left until it was done.

48:55Wow. Yeah. I love that one. Invite an audience. This one makes sense, but I think people need to do more. When an artist thrives on being in front of a crowd, we may bring in several people to watch a session. Being observed changes how an artist acts. Even if the audience consists only on one person who isn't part of the project, that can be enough. While some artists may overdo a performance for an audience and others may hold back, most tend to be more focused with someone else present even if your art is non-performative such as writing or cooking it will still likely change with an observer present the goal is to find the specific parameters in each case that bring out your best I love the idea I had a few friends a few years ago one of their buddies wanted to become a stand-up comic but he had no experience in stand-up comedy so they threw him a stand-up show in their backyard and there were like 15 of us present in the audience, he got announced onto stage in front of an audience that wasn't gonna heckle or be the meanest to him.

49:59And he got to practice. And it was just such a beautiful way, A, to do that for your friends, but to experience that. And I'm on tour at the moment, this is my break period, but for my test, we were practicing, rehearsing in a small theater in Thousand Oaks. And so what the theater said to us is they could throw it out to their local audience members who would have no clue who I was or what I was doing, and they'd come along. Little did I know that we'd have like 50 to 100 people that weekend watching the show just as a rehearsal. And it was so useful to me before I went out. And it was huge, like huge.

50:37So I loved that one. I was listening to a story on the way here. I was listening to a podcast in the car, and it told a story about the Beatles, that when the Beatles were interviewed individually, they were all these thoughtful, interesting, soulful people. Wow. But when they were interviewed, even two together, they became sarcastic and never said much about anything real and was much more of a performative, cool, like to look cool in front of the other one. Wow. That just being with each other changed the way that they appeared in the world. Wow. Yeah, that group aspect is so interesting. You've just sparked another thought for me that I think would be really interesting for people to hear.

51:29You going back to this, it's interesting, again, them being on their own allowed them to be more of their authentic, deeper self to some degree, I guess. I think it was in Bob Iger's book where he talked about how he was saying that George Lucas, Spielberg, Tarantino, and a bunch of others used to almost have a movie mastermind where they'd played their movies to each other before they went out. and he was saying that that's how confident they felt about their own work because they were showing their competitors their movies but they weren't scared of anyone stealing an idea or taking a concept because they were so confident in who they were and all their friends were so confident in their styles and we know that a tarantino movie versus a spielberg movie has no similarities yes and in some ways that community we talk about that in the book too having a community of, it doesn't have to be people who do the same kind of art as you, but people who just taste you, you respect, you like what they do, they like what you do.

52:37And being able to share your work back and forth is a really great feeling. Yeah. How have you, that's, that's a really nice segue. How has that, how has that affected how you've learned to filter criticism and feedback? Because again, going back to the world we live in today, because of that instant feedback loop, you can have a hundred comments that are negative on social media. Your song didn't make it. It's not as big as the next album. You have the top 10 chart. You didn't make it. I think the way everything's measured and broadcasted now can make criticism and feedback in one sense seem louder before you went into a room and someone told you you weren't getting a new deal and no one knew.

53:19Today you didn't get a new deal and the whole world knows and your fans know and the opposing fans know it's messy it's like how have you worked on that for yourself and the work you've done and even the artists that you work with who i'm guessing may be more sensitive to it may not have that natural confidence or groundedness in what it is how do you how and even people are listening today how do we think about feedback and criticism most of the artists i work with don't read any any criticism or reviews that they work good or bad most some some do and i would say the ones who are the strongest in who they are can even read a terrible review and laugh at it and that makes sense because when someone gives you criticism it's telling you as much about who they are as what you've made it's like we make things and then we make it with one through our filter, our perspective.

54:20And then you receive it through your filter with your perspective. So even if we both like it, we probably don't like it the same way for the same reasons. We all have our own relationship to it. Everyone has their own relationship to it. So any of these metrics of which is better, like the idea of the Oscars or the Grammys, where we're saying which album is better than another. It doesn't make any sense to me because it's always apples and oranges. If you have a Drake and Beyonce and you're deciding which album's better, well, Drake's album is clearly a better Drake album than Beyonce's album is.

55:00And Beyonce's album, I'm sure, is a much better Beyonce album than Drake's album is. But the idea that one's better than the other, it makes no sense. Who has a better diary entry? It's like if we are actually making these personal things, you can't compare them or compete in any way with anyone else. The only people who we can honestly compete with is ourselves. It's like, is this the best I can make today? Have I gone further than I've gone before? That's all we can do. That's the only competition that makes sense, is continuing to evolve and push ourselves artistically and not get complacent, especially in success.

55:44It's easy to get complacent once something works. It's like, I'll just keep doing more of that. It ends up maybe one more time you can get away with it. But once three are similar, it stops being interesting. Yeah, yeah, that's so true. And that comes back to that sameness point that... we always, and I'm just addressing things that I know all of you are thinking and feeling right now, or I'm assuming you are. the idea of, oh, Jay, there's already, you know, when I started making podcasts, I think there were like 700 ,000 podcasts in the world. And today there's like 2 million plus, maybe even more now.

56:23And that's in three years, it's tripled. Since I started four years ago, it's tripled. And so when I started, everyone's like, Jay, there's 700 podcasts. You don't need another podcast. Too late, too late. Exactly. Too late. And then now everyone's like, oh my God, there's 2 million podcasts, like it's too late. And we do that. We start again using a metric to say, and you'll only feel that way if you're planning to repeat what's already been done. Because if you're not planning to repeat it, then you're one of one. You're not one of 2 million or one of 700 ,000. It's one of one because you're only bringing your own essence out, right?

56:59Like just because every other podcast, you could be like, there's so many interview podcasts. There There are so many interview podcasts. That's true. And they're all different. And they're all different. Exactly. You know, and we got introduced through your long-term friend and my new mutual friend, Andrew Huberman, who's also been a guest on this podcast. He has a phenomenal podcast. I love his podcast, but so different to who I am. So different to what we do. And then there's a million other friends that we have that have shows. So the most common thing I hear when it comes to creativity or it comes to tapping into your essence is distraction, overthinking and procrastination.

57:36Like those words come up from my community again and again and again. And that's the kind of community listening I do like to do where I'm like, well, what are people struggling with? Because we're trying to help. What are people's challenges? I have to know from them what they think it is. And then I'll also share in the way I do. Have you or anyone you've ever worked with ever dealt with big bouts of procrastination? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And how do you define it? Because I almost think - Well, I would say there's two. The distraction and procrastination are related and different. Procrastination is not a good one.

58:11Distraction can be. Distraction can be helpful. You can use distraction if you hold a question to be solved and don't sit and think and try to solve it, but go do something else and go take a walk or go for a swim. You'll find that it changes. It changes. and the distraction of when you go for a walk and seeing, oh, look at that tree over there. Look at those birds. Or, whoa, that car came kind of close to me. All of those things, that living in the world, even though it's not challenging in any real way, it's a distraction that's using some part of your brain. Some part of your brain is occupied with, do I turn left or do I turn right?

58:57Oh, look at that thing over there. Oh, is it going to rain? these other things are happening that's different than just sitting in a room looking at your laptop just those outside cues can give you a way in to solve a problem that you wouldn't solve if you were sitting and working on it for example if we were now doing this podcast together on a walk it would be a very different podcast than us sitting here staring into each other's and it's a beautiful idea. I've had, there was a period of time where I lost a whole bunch of weight. And one of the things that I did as part of that was I only did walking meetings before I used to only do lunch meetings.

59:38So I switched the lunch meetings to walking meetings and I would meet people in Santa Monica and we would walk. And the meetings were so much better than the meetings either in a restaurant or in an office. Everything shifted. just because we were moving, we're doing something. There were external stimuli, even though the external stimuli had nothing to do with what we were doing. Yeah. It, it changed. It was a change in context that really did make the conversation much more interesting. And there's also something about when you're walking, you're not looking at each other. so it's easier to go into your own thoughts when you're not looking at someone so it's very interesting a great experiment lost a lot of weight and and the meetings were the best they've ever been yeah yeah that makes a lot of sense there's a lot of work in couples psychology that suggests that when couples argue they're usually sitting on opposite sides of a dining table and when you're sitting with something in between you first of all i mean here we don't have anything but you have something in between you, it's already creating a distance.

1:00:49And now you're working against each other rather than what you're saying is you're walking with each other. And you're looking off into the same direction. So you're almost creating a future. The idea that you're forward, you're future forward, you're future facing. It's funny, my wife and I, whenever we get to a new table and we're sitting to eat, we always say, we look at where the chairs are and one of us will say cheek to cheek. and we tend to sit next to each other instead of across the street. There you go. Cheek to cheek. Yeah, cheek to cheek. I love that. And that makes so much sense with leadership meetings, creative meetings.

1:01:26And I love that, I love, love, love. And this is why this book is so beautiful because it has so many really subtle points and the idea of the difference between distraction and procrastination. Yes. And how distraction can actually be healthy. And especially, as you said, when you hold a question or you hold an idea and you're just kind of toying with it. But you might pick up a book, you might go for a walk, you might whatever, you can do all these things. But it's almost like you're using that time wisely to come back. Absolutely, going for a drive is a great one. Yeah. Just paying attention to not crashing.

1:02:06Even though we can drive essentially on autopilot, we're not thinking about driving once we've been driving for a while. Yeah. But just driving, ideas come. I know many musicians, singers, who will listen to the instrumental music in the car and then sing along when they're driving because they're more free than when they're sitting with a recorder. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That makes perfect sense. Yeah, no, and it's so interesting how we have so many, we've also built up, again, going back to our conditioned beliefs, we've built up a negative relationship with the word distraction. We've built up a negative connotation around, if I don't solve it right now, sitting in this one place, then I'm never going to figure it out.

1:02:50And the idea that actually going on a walk, picking up something else, that's one of the reasons why I like having in my office, here in the studio, back in my home, everything's quite minimalist, but I have a lot of like little artifacts and little things. because I enjoy the kind of like stimulation and the creative juices that start flowing if I get a moment to just observe. And then sometimes I just want to observe nature outside where I can just sit and bask and almost bathe in nature, which I find to be so useful because there was this incredible study from MIT a few years ago where they tried to look for who were their most creative, innovative employees inside corporate organizations.

1:03:33and MIT was doing the study, they found two sets of charts of types of employees, employee A and employee B. Employee A knew lots of people that knew each other and employee B knew lots of people that didn't know each other. And they were looking at which one's more creative, innovative, and hence more imaginative inside a company. And they found it was employee B because employee A knew people who knew people who knew them back. Small circle, closed circle. closed circles that created these echo chambers. And you asked the same 10 people for advice and employee B knew lots of random people who had no connection to each other.

1:04:13And the point was being made that if your circle, and that I think applies to environment as much as it applies to people, is more random and disconnected, you have more chance of having a original, authentic, thought idea spark, as opposed to you're surrounded by the four same people and you talk about the same things. Absolutely. And that to me has always been what I'm trying to do. It's like, I want to know what the monks think and I want to know what Silicon Valley thinks. And I want to know what music geniuses think, because that's, there's something there. Absolutely. A word you use in this book that I want to touch on, and that's why this came up for me was submerge.

1:04:52And I loved it. When I saw that word, I was just like, yes, like, I love that. I've thought about that for so long, submerging yourself. We've lost that ability to submerge. We don't submerge ourselves much because we have so much of a little. How have you, in this hyper-connected world, working with the most connected artists in the world, have you encouraged yourself and others to continue to submerge when everyone's asking us to swim shallow? I think so many of the great artists do it naturally. You can't help it. it's the obsessive nature of being really into something that once you start down a thread, you just keep pulling forever.

1:05:36If you're interested, many of the artists that are great at what they do are great at what they do for that very reason. They fall in love with this thing, and then they just want to know everything they could possibly learn about it. and there are no distractions. I'm working on a project now, a documentary project with comedians, and one of the things that they talk about is their commitment. Like when other people are doing things on the weekend, going out with their friends, they're going to perform every night that they can possibly go out and perform until they can get good at their craft.

1:06:12And this could be for a period of 10 years of just having bad performances, You know, having people not like what you do, like banging your head against the wall. But that obsession with breaking through. And when I say breaking through, I don't mean breaking through to the audience. I mean breaking through with themselves to where they get past all of the blocks and to be free in this moment in a way where they can really express their views and be heard. and people can react. It's a fascinating thing. Oh, sorry, go ahead. I just want to ask about being a monk. Tell me about your experience. What would you like to know?

1:06:58How did you choose to do this first? I was born and raised in London. And when I was around 18 years old, I started going to events in the city where speakers were invited to come and share their stories or journeys or successes or whatever it may have been. And this is obviously before podcasting and before YouTube. And so you actually went to events to hear people like yourself or anyone speak. And so I would go and listen and there'd be founders of companies, there'd be athletes, there'd be, you know, musicians, people like that, that would come to universities and colleges in London. And so I'd go.

1:07:34And one of the nights I went, I was invited to hear a monk speak. And I was 18 years old and my, I didn't really have a perception of monks. Like I didn't really have any, I'd seen saintly people and holy people coming from an Indian background, but I never really knew what monks were or what they did. And so I said to my friends, I didn't really want to go, but I said, I'd only go if we went to a bar afterwards. That was my, that was my state of consciousness, age 18. And my friends were very persuasive and convincing. They said, yeah, yeah, we'll go. And so I went to this event, kind of like not expecting anything, wanting to leave.

1:08:09and I was just completely like floored. This monk was from India. He was born and raised in India. He had a thick Indian accent. He was wearing saffron robes and there was nothing externally that I should or should have found attractive about him as an 18 year old guy. But his whole message, and that's why I smiled when you said it earlier, like his whole message was that the greatest thing you can do in the world or greatness is to use your gifts in the service of God and use your gifts in the service of humanity as a devotional act. And he was talking about how living in devotion and my 18 year old self was just completely like mesmerized by that idea.

1:08:54I was just like, I've never heard this. Like everyone's been telling us how to be successful and how to start a business and how to launch a company and how to become number one. And it was like, this guy was just saying that that wasn't it. and so I went up to him as you do after an event when you're blown away by a speaker and I just said to him I was like I just want to follow you around like I just want to spend time with you and learn from you and sit at your you know sit at your feet and just take observe and and he said well I'm doing all these events in London this week you can come so I would go along and then that turned into my during college that turned into my summer and Christmas vacations being with him and then when I graduated I turned down my corporate job office and actually went and lived there for three years.

1:09:36And so it was like all these little steps up to like this very big decision. And so that's why it was just one person who I've just always been fascinated by people that you meet that can change the trajectory of your life. And the reason why I do this show is because I want to introduce people to people and thoughts that I think will change the trajectory of their life because I didn't ever want to be a monk. I didn't think I'd become a monk. I didn't crave to, like, it wasn't a path I saw for myself, but it became the best thing that ever happened to me at that time. And now I live in gratitude, but I also realize, so I always ask people, who's your monk?

1:10:13Like, who's the person you need to meet that you haven't met yet that could change your life? There's a example in the book of people say, you know, I'm not a good artist or you're either living as an, I say you're either living as an artist or you're not living as an artist. that you there's not you're not good at it or bad at it it's like being a monk you're either living as a monk or you're not living as a monk you can't be a bad monk if you're living as a monk you're a monk yeah i love that yeah it's beautiful i mean you've you've had so much even today you know and that's why i was excited to meet you in person because you have such a spiritual journey and essence and just in spirit even in just your presence and what you talk about the vocabulary you have that where where did that get infused with the work you do like or as again has that always been there or what was your journey i i learned to meditate when i was 14 and that's turned into a big part of my life i stopped meditating when i went to college and then when i moved to california i started again and when i started again i realized oh even though i hadn't done it for the last five years a big part of who i am is because i did it when i did it had i not stopped i wouldn't have recognized that so the stopping and starting was a very clear wow this is this is a big part of how i see the world already even with not doing it for the last five years what type of meditation is it and how do you m oh perfect okay got it got it yeah i learned tm um changed my life but and since then i've learned vipassana and i do many different many different practices and breathing practices and tai chi and many different meditative practices um i often come back to tm maybe because it was first yeah and it's beautiful yeah absolutely simple and beautiful yeah absolutely and it's interesting to me meditation just seems to be but there was definitely an a generation where meditation became really prominent in the lives of so many especially so many people today that you that you meet that are doing you know ray dalio has been on the podcast a million times and again he he talks about tm as being such a big part of his financial success in terms of making wise financial investment decisions.

1:12:26And he's a special human as well. I feel like that resurgence is back now where, where there's so much more talk about breathwork and meditation. And if you had any words of wisdom or insight for anyone who's trying it, experimenting, what would you suggest to them as someone who's done it for so long, had breaks, found usefulness in it? Are there any things that come to your heart or forefront of your... The first thing that comes up, there's a beautiful book called Wherever You Go, There You Are. I love that book. I had meditated a long period of time before I read it, but I remember reading it feeling like this is the best, both introduction to meditation and reminder of the power of meditation, regardless of where you are in your meditative journey.

1:13:11So I would recommend that book as a way in. and find the practice that works for you. And I've also used like yoga nidra or different guided meditations, which also are beautiful and helpful. Yeah, absolutely. I used a load of yoga nidra when I had my hernia surgery. I couldn't get to sleep because of the pain. And so yoga nidra is beautiful. If you have trouble sleeping, everyone, yoga nidra is like really special. You strike me as someone who appreciates growth and inner work and self-work through at least what you've said today and shared today and the thoughts in the book. And I was wondering, what do you feel has been the hardest thing that you've worked on internally or the most challenging thing that you've worked on internally?

1:13:58You said you can only compete with ourselves artistically, but internally, what has been the greatest challenge that you've worked on or are working on now? No, I would say losing weight was the biggest challenge of my life. I weighed 318 pounds at one point and I was overweight my entire life. And I tried everything from the beginning. I went to Weight Watchers meetings with my mom. You know, like my whole life was dealing with weight issues. And finally, just honestly getting the right information because I would do whatever was recommended and nothing worked. At one point time I had a performance coach living at my house for two years who watched everything I ate and got me to exercise and change my life.

1:14:46I got so much healthier with his help. And he said, in the last two years, I've watched everything you've done. 99 out of 100 people would have shed 100 pounds. And for some reason, the weight just doesn't come off. He's just scratching his said, I don't understand it. Must be something else. And then finally, I saw a nutritionist at UCLA. And by this point, I believed nothing would change the situation. My mom was obese. My mom was in a wheelchair. I just assumed that that was the way it was. It was a genetic thing, I assumed. And I went to see a guy at UCLA based on a mentor friend of mine saying, I really want you to see this guy.

1:15:31And I was sure it wouldn't work because I tried everything and nothing worked. But I loved this person who recommended me to go. He was one of my great mentors, recently passed away. His name was Mo Austin, a great, great man. He worked for Frank Sinatra and signed Jimi Hendrix and signed the Sex Pistols. Unbelievable person, unbelievable human being. and he was the one who got me to see this nutritionist at UCLA. He said, just go to see this guy, go to see the guy that I send you to and do whatever he said. And I did. And I lost like 140 pounds, 135 pounds in 14 months. But that was probably the most radical, just because it was a lifelong issue.

1:16:15And I believed it couldn't change. Eventually I believed it couldn't change because I tried everything. And it was in some ways, this is interesting, the moral of the story is through giving up, I turned myself over to this nutritionist. I didn't do what I thought was right. I did what he thought was right. And what he suggested sounded crazy to me, but I did what he thought was right. And it worked in the same. I've never exercised in my life, but then I started hanging out with Laird Hamilton and these incredible athletes because when I lost a bunch of weight, they invited me to start training with them.

1:16:52And I just wanted to be around them because they're such interesting people. Like, I like being around people who are good at what they're good at, especially when what they're good at is different than what I'm good at. It's just interesting the way they see the world. So I got to hang out with these incredible athletes. And through giving myself to them of doing what they said, you know, first day I went, I couldn't do one push-up. And I said, I can't do it. Don't say you can't do it. Say you haven't done it yet. and then they you know trained me where i could do 100 consecutive push-ups like crazy things yeah yeah you reminded me of um thomas edison's statement of uh when you feel you've exhausted all options remember this you haven't and i i think it's so interesting with health specifically it's it's fascinating that you chose that but i think that's so true where you think you're doing everything right and i've i've experienced that with myself as well especially with my my gut and inflammation where I was like I was doing everything right I'm really living a healthy life and still having this and then again passing myself over to an amazing coach who's just told me exactly what I need to eat and all of a sudden you feel better and it's almost like magic when it happens yes and but it's also finding the right coach because you could see 10 other coaches and do what they say and it doesn't work yeah it's we're so different that's another thing the idea that one size fits all.

1:18:17It's like there is no one answer for anyone. We have to find our path. You could have seen probably many different monks and not had the experience you had. It was that monk spoke to you. I remember the first time I saw Ram Dass speak, I felt like this is the first spiritual teacher that really speaks to me. And the next one was Thich Nhat Hanh. When I saw Thich Nhat Hanh speak, I felt so much peace in my body hearing him speak that I couldn't even hear what he was saying. I went into a trance in his presence. And this is with 2 ,000 people. You know, in a room of 2 ,000 people, he stepped out on stage and I felt like I was going to pass out.

1:18:56That's how much peace he carried. So seeing these things, seeing these incredible teachers and these deep souls and getting inspired and learning from them all, that's the work. Yeah, absolutely. And you're right that finding our mentors, our guides, our teachers is such a, or people that inspire you is such a big part of life. And I've found studying their stories and studying their life, it gives so much texture to your own as well. And, you know, when you look at passing these things on, when you look at passing, you know, as you start this book by talking about how you're like, these aren't facts, they're my thoughts.

1:19:37And hopefully they help and support you. When you think about giving this, I can imagine a lot of young parents who are listening, thinking, well, how do I help my child to tap into their creativity? How do I help, even if it's not your child, but my friend, my family member? what are what have you found helpful ways in being a proponent of ideas that you believe in have you found specific things to be more authentic and useful and hence translate better well i think in general people don't like to be told what to do so the best way that you could inspire someone to do something is through the way that you carry yourself.

1:20:21If you act in a creative way in the world and you do it to the best of your ability, and if someone else recognizes it, it might inspire them to do the same. So I think it's hard to teach someone something that we don't practice. We have to practice it. Yeah. That's the hardest part. Yeah. Yeah. But it's also the most fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's our purpose. It's the reason we're on this planet is to do this work, to do our work, whatever that is, whatever our part is, to play our part in this giant symphony. when when you're trying to find your part that's the part i think that confuses or concerns so many people because so many parts today have become barcodes or conveyor belts and there's so many of you doing your part it may feel sometimes where it's like well i work in a company where we all do the same thing like what is my part i think there's such a we've been talking about originality the whole time but i think so many people feel like what they do is so so much of a commodity it's not original when someone's searching for that purpose as you said your purpose is to play your part which i think is beautiful and i couldn't agree more a few years ago i really came to the conclusion i realized that what i do is not better than anyone or worse than anyone it's not early than anyone or later than anyone it's not for anyone or not for anyone.

1:21:52It's, it is just what I meant to do. It's just my role. And that's such a liberating place to live from. Absolutely. But it's, it's, it almost feels like today, there's so much pressure for people to pursue that or find that. Yes. That they either don't find it or they get scared to look for it. What have you found to be useful on that? Well, I want to say that given the example you gave of the cookie cutter work, that's what I want. Maybe Maybe your purpose in life isn't related to your job. Maybe your job is your job, and the job is the thing that supports you. And then the rest of your waking hours are devoted to your purpose, whatever that is.

1:22:31Yeah, and a lot of us are trying to make it the same thing. Yeah, and it's beautiful when it happens, but it doesn't always happen, and it's out of our control also. So we can decide, I would say, if you need to have a job to support yourself, that's great. That's a noble thing to do. And follow your dreams. But I'm not saying they're one thing. They don't have to be one thing. And don't let following your dreams undermine your ability to support yourself. It could actually do the opposite. it. If you decide, I want to be a comedian and I'm putting all my eggs in the comedian basket, and I'm going to be a comedian, the pressure of having to support yourself will change you as a comedian, not for the better.

1:23:18You want the stability of being able to take care of yourself in the world to be free to do whatever your passion is, whatever it is, fishing, you know, whatever it is yeah and and that's so true that i think the scarcity ruins the art right it's the abundance of i did my day job i'm now safe and secure i can be artistic as opposed to sometimes and actually i'm going to debate my own statement because sometimes it also feels like the pain is the pain of trying to do something is is what creates good art as well but yeah i mean I'm, but, but you're, it could be either of it. There's pain in it anyway.

1:24:01There's pain anyway. Yeah. There's pain in, you know, getting up in front of people and them not laughing is painful. Yeah. Yeah. There's pain in it anyway. Yeah. There's pain in it anyway. If that means you also can't eat, I don't know if that makes it less, more or less painful. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's almost like giving ourselves permission to make art. Like I feel like there's a moment where you go, now I'm worthy almost. But what you're saying is you are always worthy because it's who you are. Yes, you're always worthy as who you are. Yeah. Why do you think we don't feel worthy of anything, not just making art, but so many of us, I think, feel a sense of like, we're not worthy to do what we love.

1:24:39We're not worthy to share our purpose or our passion. There's a sense of, we don't want to give ourselves. I think there's a mythology that the people who make things that we love are special people. And that we think that they're, you know, the people on Mount Olympus, and they're these magic people who are geniuses. and then there's the rest of us. And that's not the case. It's like, we're all just people. We're all doing our best. We all are good at some things, not good at other things. We're humans. And sometimes we find a way to make something beautiful. But that's it. Do you know what I mean?

1:25:14There are no special people, really. We're all special. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And everyone, please listen to that again and again and again because that's the mess of like, that person's gifted, they're special, they did something unique. And I promise you, if you knew them 20 years ago, you wouldn't think that. No. But you just met them at this precipice of their life. And they don't think so. They don't think that, yeah. Or if they do think so, their art will suffer. Yeah. The ones who believe the hype, you know. Yeah, yeah. How did you respond? What was your first time you felt, and even if maybe you didn't even allow yourself to feel it, but what was the first time you experienced success and how did you respond to it?

1:25:57Because I hear so many people say, I just wanted to repeat it, right? And that again, getting caught in that same, when was the first time you experienced, maybe even felt successful and how did you respond to it? My first memory of outward success came when the first Beastie Boys album, License to Ill, was the number one album in the country. and I got a call from a person who I worked with saying, you have the number one album. I only know this because I remember the phone call. Had the call not happened, I would have no idea how I felt. And the call came, how do you feel? You have the number one album in the country.

1:26:35And I remember saying, I've never been more unhappy in my life. and uh and i think we mistakenly think some kind of outward success is going to change something in us and it does not it may make life more comfortable but it doesn't change who we are and any hole in ourselves that we're hoping to fill does not get filled. And if you spend, let's say you spend 20 years of your life working towards a goal that's going to solve everything, and then you finally achieve what you've been trying to do for 20 years, toiling away, I won't have any fun because I'm working for 20 years for this end and then you get that end and nothing changes, that's when you get hopeless.

1:27:31So it's not uncommon to see very successful artists who are very unhappy in life because they're working towards this, the thing that's going to make them feel better. And it does not make them feel better. I'm sure you've got to meet many very successful business people, billionaire people. Very few of them are happy. Very few. And they've reached their, they've accomplished their dreams and are unhappy. Because we don't know what we want. You know, we don't know what's going to make us happy. We're trying to fill something that maybe can't be filled through material or cultural success. Public success.

1:28:17It's something else. It's some internal thing. what was it that at that time that put you i don't know i don't know i think it was more i think it was more just the reality of well that doesn't matter at all and it's always been i'll say i like when people like the things i make of course and it changes nothing yeah you know it changes nothing yeah yeah i i found that there were only a few things through my monk experience that helped me realize what what made a difference one was something we're experiencing today which I really feel from you and Homer, who's always been here, he's filmed every episode pretty much we've done for the past, God knows how long now, but that there was a stillness and a quiet and a presence.

1:29:00And so the first thing was presence, the idea that presence is a big part of joy and happiness and just being able to actually be here right now. And the way you said, one of your favorite books was Where You Go, There You Are, is that? Wherever You Go, There You Are. Wherever You Go, There You Are. John Kabat-Zinn. Yeah, of course. Beautiful book. Yeah, wherever you go, there you are. Presence. The other one is learning and growth. The idea that we're growing, we're evolving, we're learning. There is some kind of stimulation of evolution. We all need to evolve. The third one was achievement. There was a sense of achievement, but I think today's sense of achievement has become about an external metric as opposed to do we even think that's worthy of achieving or pursuing.

1:29:49And then the fourth, which to me sometimes is the most important is the service element, the act, the offering that we were working always in devotion. And those were like four really simple things that I think have always formed part of the mocktail of joy, happiness, success. You said something really beautiful there. You said the first time you felt outward success. When was the first time you experienced inward success or felt that, or is that something that's constantly in progress? No, that's something probably making something that would have been one of the very first records I ever made.

1:30:22The experience in the studio of hearing something that I haven't heard before, getting excited by it, and then maybe going out and hearing it in a club. You know, like even getting the club to play it just so I could hear it in the club. That experience of like, wow, there it is. Or the first time you hear something that you make on the radio. It's very exciting, not because of what it means, but just I spent my whole life listening to music on the radio. And now there's something I made on the radio. I still have this experience on a semi-regular basis, just out in the world. I'll be somewhere in a coffee shop and a song will come on that I produced.

1:31:00And the feeling is like, wow, can you believe it's just out there like that? I remember, I remember, I could choke myself up. I could remember being in the room, what we were doing, like, and now it's playing here. How crazy is the world? I went to WrestleMania yesterday and a song I produced was played at WrestleMania. I wasn't expecting it. I wasn't expecting it. It was like, wow, WrestleMania, it's crazy. Yeah, and you still feel that today. That's what's so special. It's just so wild. You can't believe it. Yeah. It's crazy. It's magic. I love that seeing, like, how long have you done this now?

1:31:33Like, how long have you done what you did? 35 years. Yeah, like, I got to go to, I've been a Manchester United supporter my whole life. and I got to go again recently. I have a really wonderful relationship with the club and I went to watch a game recently when I was back in England and it was the first time I got to meet legendary manager Sir Alex Ferguson and he's the most decorated manager in Premier League history and United's longest standing manager and worked with the greats and I got to meet him for the first time and we were just hanging out and talking and having lunch before the game and what I loved, what you were saying about, you love watching people with greatness.

1:32:16What I loved about him was, he was talking about football like a soccer for those who, but he was talking about football like a fan. Yes. Still. Yes. Like I was like, Sir Alex, you gave me the best memories of my childhood. I was naming all these games that they'd won and I knew he knew that. It's like me telling you my favorite songs you've worked on. I know you know them, but I had to tell him for my sake and he was like living each game with me as if it was the first. And I was like, how are you still, you know, how is it that it's still so fresh? And I guess same question to you, like, how is it still so fresh that at WrestleMania a song surprises you and you still get that childlike, like.

1:32:55Because it doesn't make sense. None of it makes sense. I remember the ordinary situation that it came out of. I remember the studio in, it was one of the first times I ever came to California. I remember it's not a studio, now it's a flower shop where the studio used to be, off of La Cienica Boulevard. And it was this tiny little studio. And I remember being in this tiny little room, and one of the first times in California, and what a fun experience it was making the record and how cool it was. And that now, however many years later, 25 years later, seeing a stadium of 80 ,000 people, and the song comes on unexpectedly, it's just bizarre.

1:33:35It's bizarre because I know the modest beginnings of all of these. And it's just regular people like you and me showing up somewhere and making something that we think is cool. It's unbelievable that it has some life that goes on. Yeah. It's crazy. But I love that because what I'm hearing you say that is like you took notes. Like there were mental notes of like that moment we went in, Like there's a gratitude and there's a perspective of it wasn't just, as you've just laid out, it wasn't just about having a record on the radio. It was all those minute, small moments of discovery and of intrigue and curiosity, which you made a note of somewhere in your subconscious that you then recall and live through when you hear that song in that moment.

1:34:28You're not living there just listening to a song at WrestleMania or on the radio or number one. It's like you're living through all those miniature moments that created it. Yeah. And I never listen back to music that I work on. So when I do hear it out in the wild, it's funny. It's like, wow, look, it's still there. Crazy. Is there a reason you don't listen to it? Because I'm always making something new. I have no reason to go back. Yeah. You never even feel a sense of nostalgia. No. Unless I'm working with an artist and there's an example that comes up where I think, oh, we did something like this a long time ago.

1:35:04This might, listen to this and see if this gives you any inspiration. So more as a tool. But I would do the same for something I didn't make. You know, it would be, let's listen to this Stevie Wonder song because maybe we'll learn something. Same. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. There's a beautiful chapter in this book that I want to talk about, which is all about memories and subconscious. and I felt that you talk about this idea of larger intelligence and tapping into and even making almost journaling about dreams which I found was something that I'm definitely going to practically take on so I've never journaled about dreams I know I dream and there's times when I forget and there's times when I remember and sometimes I'll tell someone, sometimes I won't and when I read you say that you actually wrote about dreams and journaled about dreams, I was like, I'm going to start doing that now So that's something you've directly impacted me to do as a practical thing, because I feel like I've had fascinating dreams in the past.

1:35:58I've forgotten. It's too messy. And they go. And they dissipate very quickly. So quickly. Very quickly. So quickly. And that's when I was reading that part, I was like, okay, I need to hold on to these. So some of the tricks, I talked to some degree in the book, but I just touch on it in the book. There's so much to talk about. But when you wake up, you don't move at all. because the way the dream works, it's a chemical reaction in your brain. So it's also good to know if you wake up from a scary dream and you don't want to think about it, if you just shake your head around, it'll be gone. So you keep pen and paper right next to your bed.

1:36:34And the minute you wake up, you grab the pen and paper moving as little as possible and just start writing. And even if you only remember, I remember there's a part in the dream where this happens, write the part you remember And you'll see through the process of writing, more of the dream will appear. Even when you wake up, you won't remember as much of it as you know. But once you start writing, you can start tapping into more, oh, and before that, this happened. And then this happened after that. And you'll start noticing more details. And the more you practice it, the better you get at it.

1:37:10So I did that for a period of time. And at the time, the dreams made no sense. They were just these abstract, you know, Salvador Dali paintings. And just went on abstract. I have no idea. Strange, strange dreams. No idea what they are. And then years later, I found that journal and I read it. And when they were happening, I thought every dream every night was completely different. And none of them were about anything I understood. And years later, when I looked back at it, all the dreams were about the same thing. and they all were, it was so clear what my subconscious was telling me. I don't remember what it was because it was probably 20, 20 some odd years ago, but I remember being shocked by, oh, this didn't make, I was too close to it to understand it.

1:37:59I was too close. And with a little bit of distance, you can see what it is. Yeah, yeah. And it's also interesting to see how your subconscious works, how it how your subconscious abstracts reality to show it to us in a way that's intriguing and interesting but not obvious it's very beautiful the reason why i love that so much is i even had to retract the immediate question that came into my mind and i retracted it because and I'll tell everyone what it is, but I retracted it because I just love the act of observing and being present with your dream as you're showing us how to do. And the modern day question is, well, what's the benefit of that?

1:38:45Like, why would you do that? And when I was asking in my head, I was like, if I just listen to you and I'm listening to you and I remember reading what I read and I'm thinking, the benefit is just the act of observing and just being there and then, like you said, being able to then look back potentially, potentially in the future, maybe not, maybe it is, to see if there are connections. And the subconscious, you're so right, is speaking to us in almost such a compassionate, artful way without telling you on the nose. It's an important point. Don't do things just because you think you're going to get something for it.

1:39:22That's not why we do things. Do what's interesting to you. Follow what's interesting. Don't worry about the outcome. We don't know. We can't predict the outcome. We can never predict the outcome. Follow your own inner guide. It directs us. It might not make sense to us. It might not make sense to anyone else. It certainly won't make sense to anyone else. But it might not even make sense to us. And that's okay. It's fine. Listen to yourself. Why is it telling you this? Why is it telling you this? I mentioned my heart surgery earlier. My son was born 18 months before the heart surgery. I didn't know about the heart issue.

1:40:02I knew about the heart issue in that it was something I was born with, but I didn't know that it was anything I would need to deal with. And a friend of mine said, when my son was born, you're going to have a whole lot of energy and your son is going to want his mom. So you're going to have all this energy and nothing to do with it. So pick something interesting to you or that you want to do or something you want to accomplish because you're going to have all this extra energy with nowhere to put it because you're going to want it to go to your son, but he's not going to want that. He's going to be taken.

1:40:35So I decided I wanted to learn deadlifts, heavy deadlifts. The only exercise experience I had was with Laird Hamilton, and we didn't do any formal exercises like that. We did a lot of weight training, but it was more balance and coordination oriented and super fun, really interesting, and as challenging mentally as it was physically. Usually, you'd cognitively not be able to do it before you physically couldn't do it, which was fascinating to me too. It was never like sitting on a treadmill looking at the TV. It was always, if you were not paying full attention to everything you were doing, you'd probably get hurt.

1:41:14So really, you're focused. And I like focusing on things. So it was fun. So then I thought, okay, learning like proper form, Olympic deadlifting, I'm doing the Olympic deadlifting. And as the weights got heavier, I realized I had this anxiety before a lift. That didn't make sense to me. And even to the point where I talked to the trainer and I said, something doesn't make sense. I'm going to pick up this weight and one of two things is going to happen. The weight will go off the ground or the weight will not go off the ground. If the weight doesn't go off the ground, we'll take off five pounds and then I'll try it again.

1:41:55If it goes off the ground or doesn't go off the ground, I don't care. I don't care at all. Why would I have anxiety if I don't care? Turns out the wisdom of the body, knowing that when I finally found out what was going on with my heart and I talked to the heart surgeon and he asked what kind of exercise I do and I said, oh, I'm doing this heavy Olympic deadlifting. He put his head in his hands and he said, every time you lifted the weight, you're playing Russian roulette. Every time. Wow. He's like, there was no worse thing you could have done with what was going on in your heart. And again, I didn't know that, but something in my body had all this anxiety around something that I didn't care about at all.

1:42:39Yeah. So there are levels of wisdom that we don't know. we don't understand. So when you have an intuition to take the stairs instead of the elevator, or I always go home this way, but today for some reason I feel like going this other way, or maybe I'm going to cross street and walk on that side of the street, whatever it is, whatever little intuitions in your body that come, listen to them, see what happens, be open to, there's more going on than we know. There's a lot more than our conscious mind can pick up going on. Yeah, we often do so many things because we think they're right. We think they're healthy.

1:43:21They're the thing you're meant to do. But it doesn't sit with you somewhere. And I think so many people have, I know for a fact that I feel like I started following my intuition when I was probably around 14. And so that voice is very loud. But I know a lot of people that I've worked with and coached and also worked with in my life that started to stop listening to their inner voice at 14. Yeah. And so it's very quiet now. And so it becomes harder to really hear it because we've suppressed it for so long. And then the ego or the outside noise is so loud that we're guided by that. We're not misguided by that.

1:44:02It's hard to tap into it again. Have you found anything that helps you tap into it when you feel like you're losing it? Or have you met someone and you've worked with, And you've said, hey, just try this to tap into it again. And the examples you just gave right now kind of feel real too, where it can be something as simple as take that route, do that. Because I find that people lose touch with it. Absolutely. I would say when you're getting advice of any kind, expert advice from whoever it is, know maybe that applies to me. Maybe that applies. And maybe it doesn't. But it's okay. It's okay. There's no bad intention on the wisdom that's being shared with us.

1:44:45People are offering their best information, but the information that they're offering is based on their experience. So no, even when it's someone you really respect, when they're suggesting something, maybe that would work. Maybe I'll try it. Maybe not. But listen to what's going on inside yourself. And I would say getting to wherever it is that you've gotten, we've usually gotten there through listening to something going on inside of ourselves. I have many successful musician friends who have gotten there through listening to what's going on inside themselves. And then in success, think it's time to start taking direction from the outside world.

1:45:29Makes no sense. It's hard. Yeah, like you either do it at the beginning or you do it at the end. And it's almost like they're the same in the sense of what you were saying earlier, the idea of there's this beginner's mindset where you're always open to hear people's thoughts. You don't know. There's that idea of I don't know. We have to feel and see. But that's different to I don't know. Therefore, someone else must know. Or I've known up till now and now I don't. No one knows. I don't know and nobody knows. No one knows. And everyone's intentions are good. They're not out to get us, but nobody knows.

1:46:04They think they know. The wisest thing we can do is know enough to know we don't know. If you start from maybe, maybe that's true, it could work. Who knows? Not hold anything so firm as this is the way it is. I know how it is. Anytime you know how it is, your world just got a lot smaller. Yeah. Tiny. Yeah. Yeah, this idea is crystallizing for me as we're talking, this idea that you can be thinking, you can be doing, you can be feeling, or you can be knowing. And a lot of us try and place so much emphasis on knowing, but no one actually knows. And so it's better to either change our thoughts, change our behavior, or focus on our feelings and sense, as you've been saying all along.

1:46:52It's like you've got to feel how it... And I'm not saying we'll always be right. No, no, no, no, no, no, there is no, well, there is no. Yeah, there isn't even a wrong, right? Yeah. Pay attention to what's going on inside yourself. There's so much information going on inside of ourselves, intuitive information. Rick, this has been such a beautiful and fascinating conversation for so many reasons. We end every On Purpose episode with a final five. And these answers are answered in one word or one sentence each. So you have that kind of capacity. And I want you to tell us about your new podcast that's coming out as well.

1:47:29So we'll talk about it at the end. But the first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard, received or given? Don't listen to anyone. And what is the worst advice you've ever heard, received or given? Don't do the thing you love. Question number three, how would you define your current purpose? Making every step that I make in the interest of the highest good. Question number four. What's something that you believe strongly that you think other people find it hard to understand? Everything. That's brilliant. Everything, everything. And fifth and final question. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

1:48:24Love each other. beautiful rick rubin everyone the name of the book is the creative act a way of being if you don't already have a copy again i highly recommend it uh i promise you it will be an investment that will be something you pick up for years it's not a book you read and put down and then you never see it again it's going to be a book that you're going to go back to again and again and again day after day month after month and find new gems and new jewels and new wisdom that will inspire your creative journey. So if you've been someone who's been blocked, stuck, trying to find out, you know, where that's gone or haven't ever seen it before, this will be the book to unlock it.

1:49:01I highly recommend it. And Rick, you also have a new podcast as well. Yeah. It's called Tetragrammaton. I've been doing the Broken Record podcast for about five years, where I mainly speak to musicians. And I'm so interested in people who are not musicians. I I mean, it's just one of the things that I'm involved in, but I'm much more curious than just about music. And it just seemed like, why would I do that? So I've recorded the first 15 of them. Okay, amazing, amazing. Where can people find it, everywhere? Everywhere. Okay, okay. Make sure you go and subscribe to the podcast. Got 15, I'm sure they're coming out weekly or?

1:49:38They'll come out weekly. They'll come out weekly. And sounds like, I'm sure you've got some phenomenal guests already lined up. So please, everyone who's listening and watching with the book, go ahead and listen to the podcast as well. I'm sure you're going to be hearing amazing interviews and introductions and new insights on people that you know and love. And I'm sure there'll be some new people there too, but make sure you do that. Rick, thank you so much for today. Thank you for your energy, your presence, your work and putting this together and making sure you put out the book you wanted to put out.

1:50:05I'm very grateful for it. I was, as I said, I was personally amazed at how you'd transformed, how people would have thought about a book from you. And I hope it inspires many more people to find their truth as well. Beautiful. Thank you so much for reading it. Thank you. Of course. Thank you. I appreciate you. If you love this episode, you'll really enjoy my episode with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion. My fears are only going to continue to show me what I'm capable of. The more that I face my fears, the more that I feel I'm gaining strength, I'm gaining wisdom, and I just want to keep doing that.

1:50:48This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given. And Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations. When I use my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get eight times the points on all the purchases I make through Chase Travel. And even access to one-of-a-kind experiences. Experiences like music festivals and sporting events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets me into the Sapphire Lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve.

1:51:24Trust me. Discover more at chase.com forward slash sapphire reserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank, NA. Member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Terms apply. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.