Stop Trying to “Win” An Argument With Your Partner! (THIS Shift Will Turn Conflict into Communication)

0:00Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. Today we're talking about messy love, difficult conversations for deeper connection. We're living in a time where people are more connected than ever before. Yet so many of us feel deeply disconnected in our relationships. We have access to endless information, constant communication, and more tools than ever to improve our lives. We set goals for our careers, our health, our routines, and our personal growth. But rarely do we pause to reflect on how we love, how we listen, and how we show up for the people closest to us. Many of us were never taught what healthy love actually looks like.

0:44We weren't taught how to communicate when emotions run high, how to repair after conflict or how to feel safe being honest without fear of loss. Instead, we carry patterns from our past into our present, hoping things will somehow work themselves out. And when relationships feel messy, confusing or painful, we often blame ourselves or the other person, without realizing that most of what we're experiencing is learned behavior, not personal failure. Today, I want to share five powerful relationship lessons from my new Audible original, Messy Love, difficult conversations for deeper connection. My hope is that these are not just ideas for you to think about, but active practices you can bring in to your real life relationships.

1:37In my Audible original, Messy Love, I sit down with three different couples over three sessions each. Together, we explore how to build emotional safety, navigate conflict, and rebuild trust in their relationships. I'll walk you through five core principles from the series, and after each one offer you a simple exercise you can try for yourself, whether with a romantic partner, a family relationship, or any bond that holds value for you. And to hear how these tools come to life, make sure to check out Messy Love, available only on Audible. Audible's Wellbeing Collection has everything to inspire and support you in every step of your well-being journey.

2:22So let's get started. Principle one is all about influence, respect, and recognition. Early in the series, I meet Amanda and Ryan, a couple who feel out of sync in their schedules and emotional connection with one another. I quickly identify that beneath their frustration is a shared desire to feel influence, respect, and recognition from one another for what they do. When we don't feel seen or valued, we start to build resentment. Not because we don't care, but because we don't feel safe to keep giving. Let me share a moment from my conversation with Amanda and Ryan that really captures what this looks like in real life.

3:07As you listen, notice how both of them aren't actually arguing about tasks or schedules. They're wrestling with something deeper, The need to feel valued and understood in the relationship. Hearing Ryan and Amanda share, it's becoming clear to me that the underlying core issue is respect, recognition, and influence. In any relationship, people aren't really arguing just about the finances. They're arguing about, do I have an influence in the decisions we make? People are not just arguing over what roles they do or how many chores they have. they're arguing over how much respect they feel and ultimately everyone wants to feel recognized by their partner for the work they put in and so that's at the core of this relationship thank you both for being so vulnerable and open i really appreciate it's this is the reality of what we're all dealing with which is we like each other we love each other things make sense but there's the realities of life, whether that be financial, emotional, mental.

4:15And as I'm listening to you both, when we really get beneath the surface, it seems like less of a income conversation and more of a influence, respect and recognition conversation. And I mean, Ryan, you just said totally straight away. Yeah. And it took a lot of years to understand like when things happen, it's not personal. Like if I feel like she took a low blow, understanding that like it's not her legitimately wanting to hurt me. That's just her protecting herself in the same way that I do it in my way. When I get insecure, when I feel less than, my natural reaction is to get angry and like loud and big because then I don't feel weak.

5:04What are your exact roles right now? I get the sense overall, but what are your exact roles right now? And how have you learned to place value? It sounds like in those heated moments, there's an unequal value on certain roles. Now I generally go to Pilates or work out before I teach because I need to like set myself up for the day. And because by nine o 'clock, my phone, like I have a work phone and obviously a personal phone. The amount of people needing my attention is so intense that I really like those hours. So usually before Ryan and Piggy wake up, I've already worked out and like taught two classes and I'm already like well into my day, late morning or midday.

5:50That's where a little chaos comes in as if Ryan and Piggy have gone for a walk and I come home and I'm a little bit of a tornado. And then I go to the wellness center and I see patients. She's kind of always a tornado because everything's stacked. If the smallest little glitch in the schedule happens, things start to fall apart. I'm the support role. Back to what you're asking. Traditionally, I'd be like in the 50s, like the man that goes to work. We kind of joke about that, that I'm more of the homemaker and I make everything run around the house and all of the errands in the store and things like that, you know, and she works.

6:27And in those moments where she's flustered and busy and like, I got to do this. I got to do that. And I'm trying to like, He's the fixer. Like make her some food and make this and gather this. Another thing that happens a lot when she's like that, she'll just be barking orders and do this, do that. And like, where is this? Where is that? So now I'm freaking out having anxiety attack because I can't find this piece of paper or we ran out of this and she needs that. And so that's where the resentment builds up is like, I do so much, but in this moment, you'll make a comment like, I'm not doing enough.

7:02And all this other stuff that I did that you have no idea that, you know, helped your day out and made it more efficient, you're going to harp on this one thing. And now I have to feel bad about that. What you're hearing there isn't really about who does more. It's about what happens when appreciation turns into accounting. When recognition fades, resentment fills the gap. Here's an exercise I want you to try. For the first set of the exercise, I invite you to ask yourself, in what moments do you feel seen and recognized in your relationship? And then, when do you feel invisible or overlooked, like you aren't being seen and recognized in that connection?

7:46Notice what comes up for you, then see if you can share this information with the other person in your life. I want to start with something that sounds obvious, but changes everything. A lot of people think the foundation of a romantic relationship is chemistry, but chemistry is the spark. The foundation is respect. And here's how you can tell the difference between a relationship that feels exciting and a relationship that actually feels safe. In a healthy relationship, you feel respected, recognized, and influential. Not in charge, not dominant, influential. Like your presence matters, like your feelings register, like your voice changes the room.

8:32Because love without respect doesn't feel like love. It feels like anxiety with good memories. The respect part is really important. Respect isn't just being polite. Respect is how someone treats your reality. Do they take your feelings seriously? Do they handle your boundaries like they matter? Do they speak to you like you're someone they're proud to be with, especially when they're annoyed? There's a reason respect is such a big deal in research. Respect is one of those things you don't appreciate until it's missing. Because when respect is missing, everything starts to feel personal. A joke feels like a jab.

9:16A disagreement feels like dismissal. A boundary feels like you're asking for too much. And here's a modern, very 2026 reality. A lot of women aren't breaking up because they stopped loving someone. They're breaking up because they got tired of being handled casually. The relationship didn't end in one big betrayal. It ended in a thousand tiny moments of disrespect. The eye roll, the sarcasm, the you're too sensitive, the I forgot that happens every time it's important to you. Respect is the difference between I don't agree with you and I don't take you seriously. Notice the difference between those.

10:01I don't agree with you is respectful. I don't take you seriously is personal. Now let's talk recognition because this is where so many relationships quietly fail. Recognition is the feeling of my partner gets me. Not just my highlight reel, not just my cute side, not just my social self, me. In psychology, there's a concept called perceived partner responsiveness. It's basically the science version of I feel seen. It means you feel your partner understands you, cares about you, and appreciates you. And here's why this matters. When you don't feel recognized, you start performing. You start editing yourself.

10:43You start picking your words carefully. You start managing your emotions so you don't ruin the vibe. and you can call it being chill, but it's actually being alone while in a relationship. Recognition is what makes love feel like a place you can exhale. A lot of people I speak to say some version of this. They say they love me, but I don't feel known or they're there, but I feel invisible. And in real life dating culture, recognition looks like simple things. They remember what stresses you out without you having to remind them. They notice when your energy changes. They don't make you explain the same emotional pain twice.

11:25That's recognition and it's rare because it requires attention. Now here's the piece that changes the whole game. Influence. Influence is when your partner is open to being affected by you. Not controlled by you, affected by you. This is where the Gottman research is powerful. John Gottman's work on couples Consistently points to the importance Of accepting influence Being able to say in small daily ways Your opinion matters I can be moved by you I'm not in a power struggle with you And Gottman's team has written about how In heterosexual relationships A common predictor of long-term stability Is whether the man can accept influence From his partner Meaning he can soften consider, adjust, and share power rather than turning everything into a standoff.

12:22Let me make this very modern and practical. A lot of people think influence means I get my way. Nope. Influence means I don't feel like I have to fight to be considered. It's the difference between being with someone who listens and being with someone who only hears you when you've reached to a breaking point. Influence shows up in tiny moments. You say something bothered you and they don't argue out of it. You make a request and they don't treat it like an attack. You bring up a need and they don't punish you with withdrawal. When influence is missing, people start doing what they're famous for doing.

13:02They start adapting. They get quieter. They get easier. They get more low maintenance. And everyone thinks the relationship is better now until they leave. Not because they stopped loving them, but because they stopped feeling like themselves. Here's the cultural trap, being cool versus being respected. Here's a trend I want to call out gently because it's everywhere. So many women have been taught to be the cool girl, the unbothered one, the easy one, that I'm not like that one. But the truth is, being low maintenance is not the goal. being highly respected is. Because love is not earned by shrinking.

13:45Love is sustained by mutual care. If you have to downplay your needs to make someone love you, that isn't love. That's emotional rent. If you're listening right now and thinking, okay, but how do I know if this is my relationship? Here are three questions that cut through the noise. One, do I feel respected when we disagree? Not when we're in love mode, when we're in conflict Do I feel recognized on my hard days? Or am I only lovable when I'm convenient? And number three Do I have influence or do I have to escalate to be heard? Do I need to cry, threaten to leave or shut down for my feelings to count?

14:28Because if your relationship requires emotional extremes to produce basic consideration It's not intimacy, it's instability So here's what I want to share about principle one Respect is how love stays safe Recognition is how love stays seen And influence is how love stays equal Now principle two is all about scorekeeping This is another key principle that plays out with Amanda and Ryan And is at the root of so many couples, I mean Scorekeeping happens when we track what the other person did or didn't do and quietly use that information to build a case against them. But over time, this internal scoreboard can turn into resentment and emotional distance.

15:14Scorekeeping makes us adversaries. Shared understanding makes us partners. And when couples begin naming what they value in each other instead of what's missing, the emotional tone of the relationship changes almost immediately.

15:38I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, in the lead up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Bowen. Hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt. Hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway. We are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

16:23In my work, I've noticed that contribution usually shows up in five areas. financial, mental, physical, emotional, spiritual. Conflict often happens when two people are giving generously just in different currencies. And because those currencies aren't named, both people feel depleted and misunderstood, even used sometimes. Conflict often arises when someone feels they are over-giving in one area and under-receiving in another area without naming it. So here's an exercise. Your next step is the same one I asked Amanda and Ryan to do. Ask yourself, in what areas of your relationship do you feel like you are overgiving and under-receiving?

17:09And in what areas do you feel you're undergiving and over-receiving? Share your findings with your partner and see if you can make any alterations to find more balance in your relationship. And schoolkeeping's often very unlabeled and random. It can be, I planned the last three dates. I always text first. I was there when they were struggling, but where were they when I needed support? I apologize they didn't. Scorekeeping doesn't usually start with resentment. It starts with imbalance. And imbalance doesn't feel dangerous at first. It feels annoying. But over time, small mental tallies turn into emotional distance.

17:48And here's the part that's uncomfortable. Scorekeeping feels justified, because most of the time, it is. The reason we keep score from a psychological perspective is humans are wired for fairness. Research in social psychology shows that people are deeply sensitive to perceived inequity. When one partner feels they're investing more than they're receiving, relationship satisfaction drops significantly. Equity theory basically says we don't just want love, we want fairness. And when something feels unfair, your brain flags it. That's not pettiness, that's biology. But here's where it gets complicated.

18:31Fairness in relationships is rarely mathematical. It's emotional. One person might be caring more financially, caring more emotionally, caring more mentally. and the imbalance might be temporary or chronic. The problem isn't noticing imbalance. The problem is turning it into a silent ledger. Let's make this real for 2026. Scorekeeping today looks like tracking who initiates plans, noticing who says I love you first and more often, watching who shares their story on social media, counting how long it takes for someone to reply, mentally logging who compromised last. It sounds small, but it changes the emotional tone of the relationship because once you start keeping score, you stop giving freely.

19:21You give to balance the sheet and that shifts love from generosity to transaction. John Gottman's research on relationships found something fascinating. Couples don't survive because they split everything 50-50. They survive because they respond to each other's bids for connection. A bid can be small. Look at this. Can I tell you something? Are you okay? Healthy couples turn toward those bids about 86 % of the time. Unhappy couples, around 33%. Not because they're evil, because they're tired, because they feel unseen, because they're already keeping score. And when you're keeping score, you start missing bids on purpose.

20:04Oh, now you want my intention. Oh, now you're affectionate. Oh, now you care. Scorekeeping turns connection into revenge. Scorekeeping feels powerful. It gives you evidence. But here's the truth. Scorekeeping is usually unspoken resentment. And unspoken resentment becomes emotional withdrawal. You don't scream. You don't leave. You just start caring a little less. You stop initiating. You stop softening You stop reaching Not because you don't love them Because you're protecting yourself from feeling foolish So what's the alternative? This is important The solution is not to ignore imbalance The solution is to address it directly instead of storing it Scorekeeping thrives in silence Healthy love says, I'm feeling stretched here I need more support I notice what you're giving me here But I do feel like I'm carrying this alone That's not nagging, that's clarity Because once resentment builds, you're not negotiating needs You're negotiating wounds The next thing I want to talk to you about is conflict styles In Messy Love, the second couple I meet is Gladys and Justin Who are having a difficult time with the way they communicate and trust in one another I shared with them three core fight styles or conflict styles Venting, I want to fix this right now Hiding I need space and time to reflect on my feelings And exploding What happens when the first two go unheard Here is a moment where I introduce this idea to Gladys and Justin As you listen, notice how naming the conflict style Immediately lowers the temperature Often when we finally speak up We speak louder but not clearer When I say louder, I don't mean you're shouting Yeah It's more confident but it doesn't mean confidence is clarity in is that person really able to understand what we're saying that's why this exercise of that trigger and reaction is so important because what's happening is the trigger is speaking louder maybe not clearer and the reaction is minimizing and projecting value onto it and that's where everything escalates what happens when it escalates so you don't feel seen and heard gladys justin will say can't believe we're here again It's too small.

22:25Why are we doing this? Where does that go? I just shut down, which is the next one. But I just shut down. And then that's when he kind of wants to have a conversation. And at that point, I don't want to have a conversation. It just becomes an argument. And then the conversation becomes very defensive. And then at some point, that is probably the biggest thing. Like, I feel it in my chest when this happens. I get so angry that I'll just scream and be like, I don't care anymore. and just get off my phone. Like, I don't even care. I don't want to talk to you. Walk away. And I start becoming really rude.

22:58Yeah. And that's when we've already gone too far where it's like, it's unsavable at that point, that conversation, because tension's high. There's loads of emotion. We've lost that rational part of us that has the ability to... Justin, your thoughts on that? Yeah, that's pretty accurate. And it happens on both behalves. You know, there's some times where she'll shut down and then I do the same and then we just don't talk. and then there's like that awkward silence and then somebody breaks the ice most of the time it's me you know coming to try to figure it out right yeah and so what we're really speaking about here is that in terms of your communication challenges the communication challenges for Gladys is saying what you really want when you want it and being really clear about it and for the challenge is when we only communicate when it's triggered, it's no longer communication.

23:53It's now a trigger. That's why we call it that. And I think communication is actually there's nothing wrong right now. And there's nothing that I'm agitated right now. And in this piece, I'm actually going to share what I want. If I communicate when I'm not triggered, chances are I won't trigger the other person. But if I only communicate when I'm triggered, chances are I'm going to lead to a reaction and I think for yourself in that just in if you're only reacting to a trigger you're going to have a reaction but for you to break this cycle we've got to make sure that you're able to even if Gladys gets triggered to be able to approach it in a form of validation and making her feel seen and heard and so there's responsibility and accountability on both sides because we don't want to get to the escalation point because that's the point of no return where repairing from that is a lot harder.

24:46When we understand how we fight, we stop assuming it's about whether we care. Here's a moment where we go deeper into triggers and how quickly reactions can spiral when clarity is missing. Conflict styles aren't flaws. They're patterns we learn to protect ourselves. But when those patterns go unnamed, they collide. The goal isn't to eliminate conflict. It's to understand it well enough that repair becomes possible. Conflict styles aren't flaws. They're patterns we learn to protect ourselves. But when those patterns go unnamed, they collide. The goal isn't to eliminate conflict. It's to understand it well enough that repair becomes possible.

25:28For this exercise, I invite you to identify which fight style is most common for you in your relationship. Then consider why you think this style developed and whether any adjustments could be made. Are you a fixer, a venter, or an exploder? Most relationships don't fall apart because of big betrayals. They fall apart because of how two people fight or don't fight. Your conflict style is the invisible script you run when something feels off. It's how you react when you're hurt, when you're misunderstood, when you're disappointed. And most of us didn't choose our style. We inherited it. Here's what's fascinating.

26:07Research shows that conflict is not predictive of divorce. Avoidance of repair is Gottman's work shows it's not about whether you argue It's about whether you repair quickly Do you soften after? Do you circle back? Do you say I didn't mean it that way? Or do you stay in ego? Here's the hard question Ask yourself When we fight, do I feel closer after or more alone? Because conflict styles don't determine compatibility Repair does It's not about finding someone who you never argue with It's about finding someone who stays with you Even after you argue Principle number four The final couple we meet in Messy Love, my Audible original Is Jeremy and Richard Who are deeply in love and committed to growing together But working through very different communication styles This is something I see quite often in my work with couples And can be incredibly frustrating without a solution For this, I offer the XYZ method, a simple framework for expressing needs without blame or judgment.

27:12It goes like this. When you X, I feel Y. How can we work together to get to Z? Let me share a moment where I introduce this framework to Jeremy and Richard. The challenge is as humans, we all internalize all statements. So most people, when they hear the statement, you don't understand me, what we hear is you're not an understanding person. Yeah, sure. Right? I'm not an understanding person. And then what the person on the receiving end does is think of all the ways in which they are an understanding person. Hey, but wait a minute, I understood when you had that doctor's appointment. Hey, wait a minute, I understood when we were with Jay.

27:48It's like, no, the way you want to share it is very specific. When you do X, I feel why yeah how can we get to see we can use this framework that is evolved from many solution focused therapies to be really specific right that's how we want to try and have that conversation moving forward because the other challenge we all say to our partners is we all say you always do this and you never do that right you always leave the dishes unclean you never organize vacations for us to go on. And so we speak in finality and completeness as opposed to when you leave the dishes uncleaned, very specific, when, not always, not never, when you leave the dishes uncleaned, I feel you don't value me.

28:40Whereas you could have just said that you don't make me feel valued. And that lands completely differently. You just don't value me. And the other person's like, what do you mean I don't value you? I just made you coffee this morning. I took the dog for a walk. I cooked us dinner last night. What do you mean? Like, no, you don't value me. The dishes were unclean last night. And now you've already lost the argument. When you do X, I feel Y. What you're doing is you're taking accountability for your feeling and you're being specific to clear up when you feel that way. And then the person gets an opportunity to explain how those two things are not connected.

29:17So what I want you to do, Richard, is I want you to express something to Jeremy. You may have done something before. I want you to take something you shared in anger or flippantly or something you shared without this process. Maybe you said, you don't value me. Maybe you said, you're careless with money. And I want you to now say it with this new rhythm and new script. I was just kind of thinking about like, when that typically happens, it's usually around like cleaning the house. Oh, that's true. That's where my mind went to first. And I'm a very clean person. I just want to state for the record, but he's freakishly, obsessively clean.

29:54I don't think you're a dirty person at all. I think you can be messy. And when I spend a lot of time making our house nice and clean and lovely like a hotel

30:13i and when so yeah so now i want to use the script so how would richard have said that before today how would richard have said that how would you say this without the script um god why can't you just wipe that up you're a dirty slob brilliant great or like god i just cleaned up deep cleaned the whole house and like you're you know making a sandwich you can't even wipe up the crumbs he will get bothered by me eating food after he's clean the kitchen deep clean but like i don't mind just like wipe down the counter there's like crumbs how would you say it with a new skill set okay when when you do these kind of things when you leave the crumbs on the counter after i cleaned i deep cleaned our home, I feel like you don't value the love and work that I put into our household to make it nice for us.