Stuck in a Creative BLOCK? THIS 3-Minute Practice Will Unlock Your Creativity (This Quick Daily Act Will Help You Feel Inspired Again!) With Amie McNee

26:25Residents at Brightview Senior Living Communities enjoy enhanced possibilities, independence, and choice. Brightview, Dulles, and Great Falls offer vibrant senior independent living, assisted living, and memory care services through various daily programs, chef prepared meals, safety and security, transportation, resort style amenities and high quality care. Take financial possession of your apartment by December 31st, 2025 and save. Discover more at brightviewseniorliving.com. Equal housing opportunity. And back to our episode. This is such a nuanced conversation. I'm so glad you said that because it is so complicated and it's so very valid to want to just make art for art's sake, to just want to play and create.

27:07In fact, I think that's an imperative part of every artist's journey. Like, have fun. Like, that's so important for us. But there are so many narratives around, you know, how to do art properly and how you're meant to be an artist and you should make a certain amount of money and you should be showing up in this way. There are so many stories that I think mean that we start feeling it can be incredibly stressful. Being an artist on social media is so stressful. How do I put myself out there? How am I meant to promote myself? Do I should I want to promote myself or should this be a private practice?

27:36I think this is an intensely personal thing that you need to sit with and decide where you're at. But for me, my calling is to be seen. And I love supporting artists who want to be seen. And I think there's a weird amount of shame that comes from a creative who wants attention for their art. And so my new thing at the moment is to say, I create art for the attention. Because I create art to connect with people. And I think a lot of artists do. Like we create because we want to show you. and it's a really beautiful thing to do to make art and say here do you see yourself in this like I made this what do you how do you find it and so I want to really validate creators who are creating stuff because they want to connect I think we get this other story that is again a very valid story that says you should only want to make art for yourself like Rick Rubin talks about this a lot and I love what he's saying because if we do get too focused on the external And we start thinking, okay, well, I'm going to make art only for other people.

28:36It can really muddy the waters. We get very confused and we lose our internal compass of what it is we want to create. But I think there's this balance to be struck because, yes, we have to love the process. We have to love the act of art, of creating. But at the same time, it's okay to want to connect with other people. It's okay to want to have a relationship with audience. It's okay to want to be seen. It is so human to want to be seen. and I want artists to feel very validated that that is a beautiful and normal almost holy part of this I love artists that are out there asking people hey can you witness me I made this thing will you see me like it just sets me a light I'm like yeah I do want to look at you I want to see I want to give you my attention yeah and you're so right that so many artists and I know I carried this at the beginning there's a sense of shame and guilt in well am I less than if I want my to be seen?

29:27Am I, am I doing something wrong if I want my art to connect with people? Am I, and, and I agree with you that that can be such an excuse for us to not create and for us to not make, or we create, but then we play small and we hide and we kind of keep our work very, very separate because we want to, or we say things like that where we say, oh yeah, I mean, you know, I don't really care about followers. I don't really care about how many likes it gets. And inside it's eating us as opposed to accepting and saying, well, maybe I do care and I don't care. There's two sides of me. And I think I've always, I feel that balance that you speak of is so true because there's a part of me that cares about everyone listening to this podcast right now, because I want to, because I want to have a connection.

30:15I want to create something of value for you that benefits your life and changes your life. And you'll listen to this and it will be the reason three years from now, you'll say, I listened to that episode with Amy and I started creating and all of a sudden I'm writing a book and my art's in a gallery or whatever it may be for you. I want that feeling. I do. And at the same time, I don't care because I just want to have a conversation with Amy. And so both of those things are true. But when we start denying parts of ourselves, it's almost like we start lying internally to ourselves. And when you do that, you then really disconnect.

30:45There is such a duality to being a human being, and especially and being a creative. And I love that. Like I, I care about my art impacting people, but I also want to make sure that I'm making art that I want to make and that I'm not making art just for an audience. And these two things can be true at once. And we can honor both the fact that, yeah, I make art for the attention and I also make art because I just love to tell stories. And these things are true at one time. And we've got to honor both those parts of ourselves. You've done a lot of different jobs on the way here. I believe it was like, You were a waitress at one point.

31:19Yeah, very bad waitress. You were a trainer. You've done financial planning. I want to hear - I wouldn't say I did financial planning. I was a personal assistant for a financial planner. So I was financial adjacent. Terrible at that job too. But I want to hear about that journey because I think that's what I find fascinating about artists. Like as an artist, you're always having to pay the bills, finding a way to solve this until your art becomes, you know, enough. anyone who's I'm doing uh air quotes next to enough to to be recognized etc walk me through that part of your life where you're like doing things that keep you afloat and at the same time trying to keep your art alive what was that like because I think a lot of people listening right now they may be working a 12 hour job a day they're working three jobs a day just to survive but they're like they've got this skill and art and really when they get home at the end of the day they just want to switch on a tv show and and escape and switch out like how did you keep both alive when it wasn't your main thing.

32:17Yeah. I mean, one of the things that makes me angriest is how much life robs us of our art time. Like I want so many of us to have the time, the energy, particularly to come home and to create. But for so many of us, it's just, it's not possible. And balancing a regular work and a creative life is hard. And I really want to validate any creative who's navigating this because I think we get a bit of the hustle narrative where it's like, just make it work. It is hard to balance your creativity and your real life job and, you know, caretaking and being a kid and just being an adult in general. Like I can, it's huge.

32:52And I really struggled with it. I was waitressing because I was doing all these little jobs because I was trying to fit art around them. So I was waitressing because I could, then I could work after 3 p.m. maybe. I was a personal trainer because I'll train clients in the morning and the evening and I'll try and write in the middle of the day. Like I was trying to choose jobs that would work for me. But it was exhausting. And especially because these jobs were so like the antithesis of Amy, like I'm not made to serve people coffee. I can't hold the skim milk situation in my head. Like I don't care.

33:24So I don't pay attention. So I'm not a very good waitress. I'm exhausted by the end of my shift. Then I get home to my writing and I think, okay, well, I've got to write two to 3000 words. This is too much. And so I would let myself down. I I would feel like I betrayed myself and I would get in patterns of constantly feeling like I've betrayed my inner artist. I've betrayed my dreams. I can never reach up to this level. And I think I see it all the time. Like artists are like, okay, because I didn't write at all this week, okay, I'm going to weekend, I'm going to do, I'm very biased to writers, but any sort of creating, I'm going to create for like six hours to make up for it.

33:59And then they can't do it because they're exhausted. And then in this pattern of self-betrayal and they start not trusting themselves that they're going to follow through. I had a real breakthrough when I decided that I was only going to write 300 to 500 words a day, just baby steps, small steps. I realized that that was a promise I could keep. 300 words could be done in like 20 minutes, 15 minutes. They could be crap. That was another big thing. I think we demand huge amounts of time for our art when we're already exhausted and we're like, and they better be perfect. And it's so unfair, so unfair.

34:33And also it's a recipe for absolute disaster. And you're not going to be able to finish your creative projects because these working conditions are horrendous. So it was 300 shitty words was my bare minimum. I also had a bare maximum so that I couldn't keep going so I could contain my energy. So I wasn't allowed to write more than a thousand words. And that's how I wrote my books. That's how I still write my books, 300 to 500 words a day. And it's so doable. and when you come home from an absolutely hectic day, you can say, okay, 300 words, 300 potentially crappy words or 10 minutes on the guitar or I want to take three pictures with my iPhone.

35:13You know, whatever it is, it's just really small, really doable and then you start accumulating wins. So if you've done that like three, four times a week, you're like, okay, maybe I could do that again next week and by the end of the year, you have a portfolio of your creations and you've become, you know, you've improved as an artist. You've got something to show for yourself. Some of you will have a finished book if you've chosen to write. We ignore the magic of the baby steps so frequently because I think we're just such a go all in or go home culture. Yeah. And you're so right that, you know, go all in or go home culture, just it blocks us the most because it's also, this comes from like a bit of ego where it's like, I want to be the best at this.

35:53Like this has to be incredible. And it's almost like, well, maybe I'm not going to be the best at this the first time I try or for the first year or maybe for the first 10 years. And that's okay because I'm just trying and I'm just learning. But that requires a sense of detachment and egolessness to be like, it's okay to make bad stuff. And I know you are the biggest proponent of this. Shitty art. Yeah. And that's really been validating for me. Like every time I read you say something like that or write something like that, I'm like, yes, thank you, Amy, for giving me permission. Walk me through how we, because I think we oscillate between procrastination and perfectionism.

36:28And so this kind of solves both of them really. But walk me through that. Yeah, they're so closely related, procrastination and perfectionism. One causes the other and such a like perfectionism will mean that you procrastinate. So my ethos is like shitty art. Like if you can't point to a giant pile of shitty art that you've made recently, then you're not doing the work. And I think so many artists see that as a sign of failure. But to me, that is a sign of like giant success. We have to connect to that messy, playful part of ourselves when we create. That's when the best art is made. I watch artists finesse and finesse and they're trying to get it so right.

37:04And they're like narrowing and narrowing their point of view. And they're getting so constrained. And they're losing, I think, their own creative voice almost by these huge restrictions to be perfect. Whereas if you just say, make shitty art. And I often do this at workshops. I say, I've got three minutes. Just make something shitty. And the cool stuff that comes out of that, shitty poems, shitty drawings, there's also that little element of magic to it. Because when you just let yourself play like a child, it's so fun. There's a lightness to it. Ideas come in. Perfectionism is rigidity. And we think perfectionism is the answer.

37:39It's like, oh, if I'm a perfectionist, it's like that will get me to where I want to go as a creative. It's like the one fault that we're allowed to have. But perfectionism will destroy your creative career. It will destroy it. We need mess. We need play. That is when you will become the best artist you can. Yeah. And that's actually often where I find the seeds of great ideas come. Yeah. Like you did something bad. You did something random, but there was one word or one line in it. There's one dot or whatever it is for you. There's that one thing that you go, oh, that was the real thing. That's the thing I want to create now.

38:13And all of a sudden it sparks it. But if you didn't allow for that messiness. It was never going to happen. You would never have seen it. You would never have found it. and that to me is is definitely why I crave more play and more messiness in my life because there's a sense of the the profound will only come from playfulness it's not going to come from trying to be profound or create something profound it doesn't it doesn't originate that way I think so many of us think that art is like a child thing and so we're trying to be like adults creating and adults would create in very structured ways like we'd have rules you know we'd follow an expert and we do exactly what they say and we try and make art a very responsible and neat thing.

38:53But art is like that in a child playing and art is messy and it should be a kind of a chaotic experience. We've got to invite that back into our lives. Yes, I do this activity that I got introduced to many years ago. It's known as the 30 circles test. I don't know if you've ever seen it. So it's basically an A4 piece of paper with 30 circles printed on it. And I often hand it to executives at corporate coaching and corporate clients that I have. And the task is you have to uniquely fill and complete and use 30 circles in 30 seconds. And the clock starts and everyone starts scribbling away, doing their thing.

39:30And then clock stops at 30 seconds. And I asked them, what have they done? Over 50 % of the audience will have done one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight to 30 or A, B, C, D, E, F, G to Z, Z to A, B, C again. And so they will have done that that's what over 50 % of the audience has done some of the audience has done squiggles just random squiggles nothing there maybe knots and crosses or they've some people done emojis and some people have done like footballs and soccer balls and pizzas or whatever like using surfers and that's generally runs the gamut of 99 % of the audience yeah and maybe in the adult side you'd get one but they also did this with lots of 10 year olds and I tried it out with 10 year olds as well and some of the stuff that comes out is unbelievable and so this one girl had done all this like intricate shading on it and when we asked what it was she said it was a chessboard from a bird's eye view and when you ask another kid what it was they um had put like a line around it and put a little thing on top and they said it was a bag of marbles and they put five dollars on the bag of marbles and this was my favorite one someone had done all this intricate shading this little girl and put all this like curves and all this stuff.

40:41And when I asked her what it was, she said it was bubble wrap. Oh my God. And it was so creative. It's a genius. Yes, genius. And it's so interesting what you're saying is so true that when adults hear 30 circles, 30 seconds, we go logical brain, structure, completion, deadline. So we switch off the part of our brain that has any. Yeah. And you can imagine how many of those adults are thinking there is a right and wrong way to do this. And I'm going to be marked on it. Whereas these kids are just like, it's so beautiful, so playful. And when we talk about creative genius, I think we often think of some of, you know, the greats like Mozart or something, but like, look to the kids because they are finding out fun stuff.

41:23They are the creative geniuses. And we have that within us. It's just that we've been told to squash that part of us from our culture, really. How do you start to structure and strategize art and promote it in a way that then it does allow you to, because it's almost like we're trying to become adult about our art, not adult about how we market, promote and strategize our art, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's almost like the art should remain playful and messy and truly creative. But then how we get that art out there should potentially have structure and strategy. Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you.

41:57I want to hear your thoughts. But first, here's a quick word from the brands that support the show. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead, save up to 50 % and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter, park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we're taking a closer look at a condition that affects hundreds of thousands of men each year, prostate cancer. I first found out about my cancer at the age of 45. Anything with cancer, you just think death sentence.

42:36In this episode, we'll explore the science behind detection, along with the practical steps men can take to protect their health. Listen to Health Discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app, search Health Discovered, and start listening. Residents at Brightview Senior Living Communities enjoy enhanced possibilities, independence, and choice. Brightview Dulles and Great Falls offer vibrant senior independent living, assisted living, and memory care services through various daily programs, chef-prepared meals, safety and security, transportation, resort-style amenities, and high-quality care.

43:14Take financial possession of your apartment by December 31st, 2025 and save. Discover more at brightviewseniorliving.com. Equal housing opportunity. All right. Thank you to our sponsors. Now let's dive back in. I think there's a lot of room for mess, for playfulness, for the chaos, the traditional creative chaos in marketing, putting your art out there. I think we get really stuck on, okay, well, I've made my art. It's incredible. It's beautiful. It has my inner child like infused within it. Now I'm going to market it. and now I need branding colors and I need a social media scheme and I need to be I need to be doing you know four to five consistent posts a week and three reels and all of a sudden that like I see it like artists just shrivel like we don't thrive under those kind of circumstances I think there's so much room for I think marketing is an art form in itself and therefore I think that when we put our art out there when we promote our art there is room for mess and there's still like shitty art should still be a part of it.

44:14Like we should still be playing around, seeing what works, having fun when we promote our art as well. I think artists feel so claustrophobic when they feel like they have to niche down or they feel like they have to, you know, neaten up their Instagram grid, like be messy in the promotion process. Like we're out there looking for real humans to connect with, not brands, not companies. I want to connect with artists who are real human people. And so I want to invite artists to bring that mess into the marketing process as well. But I think it's very easy for our perfectionists to flare up when it comes to sharing art, because not only have we just done the bravest thing, which is make art, now we have to share it.

44:55And so perfectionism is going to flare hugely because we're like, okay, I've got to protect myself. Because this is a moment where I put it out there and people are going to see me as the artist. They're going to see my art. They're going to judge it. So we start trying to structure it really heavily in order to feel safe. And I just think we lose so much of the magic when we do that. I want to see the artist. I want to see the human. I want to see your mess. I want to see you playing. I want to see, I just want to see grit when it comes to promoting. No, I actually agree with you. I actually agree with you.

45:25I definitely, when I was talking about structure and strategy, maybe I used the wrong words. I definitely don't mean, definitely don't like the idea of people having to, you know, like you said, choose brand colors and be organized. Yeah, no, not in that way at all. And I couldn't agree with you more that often that's the stuff that stifles even more creativity because you're now playing a game that you hope to figure out. Yeah, I see artists, you see it everywhere online, especially in the space I'm in because I'm so in, you know, the creative space. Artists are just so tired of having to show up in specific ways online in order to please the algorithm.

46:03Like there's a weariness that I see in creatives that's so heartbreaking. And I just want to say, first of all, I know it's hard to navigate these systems. But second of all, break all the rules. Rebel. Artists are inherent rebels. We break the rules. We've already broken loads of rules because we've created stuff in a world that wants us to stay small and compliant and silent. Now it's time to break the rules with how we put our art out there. Do whatever you want to do. Do what makes you happy. do what feels creative rather than you know constantly obeying what's going to go you know what what we think might go viral or what reels are preferred by the algorithm this stuff is making us feel like shit and it's not I don't know that it's helping us and how do you feel like if someone's doing that but then they're also like going months and years without feeling like their work's being seen yeah it's so hard yeah yeah it is incredibly difficult and there's nothing to me there's nothing more painful than when you're sharing your art and nobody is seeing it like there is an exquisite pain when it comes to that silence and navigating like putting something out there that you've just created and having no one respond like for me when I was navigating that like I was very very upset by it and I felt almost ashamed by how upset I was by it again it's that idea that artists shouldn't want attention but I wanted attention I wanted people to see and read my books.

47:23I wanted to be witnessed. So when artists aren't seen and when we're like, okay, I'm going to break all the rules, but it feels like by breaking the rules, you get missed or you get put to the side. That can be incredibly difficult. I think there's a way to kind of toe the line and play the game, but at the same time, make sure that it feels good to you. Certainly for the way that I like to share my art, I don't want to do what's going viral, but I will still consider like, you know, how it's going to impact my audience and what people have enjoyed of my content lately like there's a game that I'm playing and it's a balance that I like to there's a line I like to walk that makes it so it's still creatively fulfilling for me but I'm not going to obey whatever the next niche thing I have to do in order to be big on social media yeah yeah do you find that like in terms of your creation I mean totally I mean we in the beginning you know for me the videos that I started with were me just freestyling almost kind of rough words, poetry on topics that I loved, they went viral by chance.

48:26Like they weren't crafted for a particular time length or a particular editing pattern because I didn't know them. I was just making videos and they went viral and people loved them. And then I made more of those because I enjoyed them. But the day I stopped enjoying making them, we stopped. Yeah, beautiful. And then we created a new format where I'd seen a lot of comedians who would do sketches and there'd be hilarious sketches of real life. I was like, well, what if I did sketches of real life? Like, what if I was to create real life experiences as dramatic performances with messaging? So we did those and I loved it.

49:03And those went viral. And then there was a day I didn't enjoy making those anymore. I felt like I was trying too hard to come up with storylines. And then so we stopped doing that. and then I started the podcast which I'm still doing today because it feels like the most realist fluid form because there is no set structure to make a interview go viral it's truly a deep conversation it's far less there's not a science to that as much and if there is I don't enjoy it because I choose not to ask I have a rule that we have of not to ask gossip-based questions clickbait questions because that's how we protect our art yeah and I want the conversations to be true and genuine and sincere but basically when I've stopped finding something fulfilling as art I've stopped doing it because I've found that if I keep doing something I hate I'm going to end up hating parts of myself yeah and I'm going to feel disconnected from myself we get a lot of bitter artists when we have you know a practice that we're doing whether that's in the creation process or whether it's when we share it.

50:05If we don't like it and we keep doing it, we are going to become bitter. We see a lot of bitter artists out there who are just so angry at what the world has made them do, whether that's to sell their books or sell their art or be seen on social media. And they're so pissed that they had to sacrifice their creative integrity in order to be seen. And it just cannot be worth it. I want creatives to create with what feels good, exactly like you, Jay. It's such a beautiful example. When it stops feeling good, stop doing it. try something else yeah because it will it did feel good at one point of course yeah and it was new and fresh and it was great and the funny thing is the parts of me that want to go back to some of those now yeah so it's like because i'm like i used to love those videos eight years ago maybe if i reconnected to them i'd come at them from a really genuine place and so i can now go back home feeling happy rather than go back home feeling bitter because i feel forced to be there yeah and so i feel like when you let the algorithm dictate what you make you feel forced to be there and it's almost like your parents forcing you to come to family dinner and you don't want to be there exactly and I love what you said about artists being rebels because I remember when I wrote think like a monk my first book and 14 out of 17 imprints that I took meetings with at different publishers told me not to call it think like a monk because they were like Jay who wants to think like a monk no one wants to do that and it was this big thing that I remember this conversation and I was talking earlier about when you're writing your first book you don't know how much to push for and how much not to.

51:31That was something I pushed for wholeheartedly. And I'm so glad I did. I'm so glad you did. And, you know, it's so interesting because same with my second book, I was like, I had this view of an artistic cover and I pushed for it again because I believed in it so deeply. And I could have gone for the cover that they thought would sell the most or whatever. And it was never that. It was always like, I want to create something that I think is beautiful and powerful and builds a movement. Yeah. I think we've been taught to we've got to create the thing that's going to go the most viral but what if we create something that impacts you know 100 people like that's still incredibly worth it I think we're always aiming for virality we're always aiming for like again what's that big or go big or go home like what if we make art and share it in a way that no it doesn't go viral but it connects and it impacts and it maybe only finds one or two people but it does its thing and it and it resonates with them I feel like artists are always told, you know, go viral, be Taylor Swift or be a starving artist.

52:31And it's this binary that doesn't serve us. I talk a lot about like, I want this to be the era of the middle class artist where it's like, we don't need millions and millions of dollars. We need a stable income and we get to enjoy a stable income. We're not the starving artist and we're not JLo, but we are thriving, joyful, you know, financially secure artists. Like that's what I want for us. And I think it's much more possible than we realize. You just talked about how you want this culture of middle-class artists, which I love that. Like that's such a, such a great vision and such a great mission that you're on.

53:04Like I really like that because like you said, I think for so many years we've been told art's not a real job. It won't make you a living. What's the point? And we've subscribed to that. And then you do a safe job and then you realize you left your dream back there. Yeah. Or you got lucky enough and art did become a really big thing but then maybe you lost touch with the art you wanted to create and you felt like you sold out and I've always described it as the selfish artist or the sellout artist and it's like the selfish artist only creates them for themselves but then they don't ever get to feel what it feels like to share their art and the sellout artist only creates for the audience and then they never create what they truly want and the balance is in between yeah but when it comes to monetizing your art, I feel like people are scared of asking for money.

53:48We're scared of valuing our art accurately. And then at the same time, we're struggling to pay our bills at points in our life. How do you encourage people to think about monetizing their art and becoming a middle class artist? There's so much shame around for all of us, whatever we're doing, there's so much shame around money. But I think for artists, there are so many narratives. There's this almost glamour around being the poor artist. And then as you say, then there's the glamour around being like the super mega famous artist. And there's no healthy story about an artist who gets paid for what they do and can live, you know, a sustainable life.

54:22And, you know, there's a value exchange and it feels good. And the exchange of money feels good. And I feel like for me personally, on my journey, like it's been the most beautiful thing to realize that selling my art has felt really good. selling my books has felt so aligned. I know that my stories are going to serve them and there's a value exchange and they pay me for my stories or they pay me for my words. And it's felt really beautiful, like a very, like a relationship. It's felt very intimate. It's felt very aligned. And I always thought that it was going to feel icky or it was going to feel yucky or that I was going to feel like I was taking advantage of them or manipulating them.

54:59But I've found a space where it feels good. And I want artists to understand that selling your art can feel good. And so I want artists to start getting comfortable with the idea that art is valuable. And perhaps that's maybe the part of the problem. Like we don't understand that art is valuable. People think, oh, you know, food is valuable because it feeds me or, you know, I need a computer because I need to do work on it. But we don't really understand the value of art. And it is incredibly hard to put a monetary value on art. I mean, I have so many conversations with creatives being like, how do I put like a dollar sign on my art and that is hard.

55:33It can feel very arbitrary, but art has value. Art brings so much value to other people and the artist needs to learn that because I think there's too many creatives going around out there thinking, oh, I'm just, I'm making decoration for the world or I'm just doing something so silly. I'm telling stories, I'm making movies, but it's just, you know, it doesn't make a difference. Art makes a difference and we're getting some very cool research coming in about how art impacts us physically, how it impacts our mental health, how it impacts our communities. Like art changes us, but artists don't recognize that.

56:09And we still think we're doing something frivolous when in reality we are doing something incredibly profound that is making real change, political change, personal change, biological change to other people around us. You deserve money for that. That story needs to sink in. And then that value exchange is going to feel so much better. So powerful. I'm so glad you made it so easy and clear. And it's so true. I have so many friends who are artists who do something and it's quite easy for them or it's effortless for them. And then they're scared. And there's this beautiful old made up story that I heard a long time ago where it's not true at all, but it's got a nice message.

56:45And Picasso walks into the marketplace and this lady sees Picasso and she says, Picasso, will you draw me a portrait? He says, sure, I'll draw your portrait. So he grabs a pen and paper and he draws a portrait of her and he gives it back to her. And she says, Picasso, that took 30 seconds. And he's like, it took me 30 years to do that in 30 seconds. And it's like, when you're working as an artist, you're almost recognizing and reminding yourself that when you're putting a value on your work, you're putting a value on all the training, all the pain, all the stress, all of that, that went into that piece.

57:16That's maybe it've taken you 20 hours, maybe it took you two hours, maybe it took you two minutes, but there's so much experience that went into that piece. And so whether it was a quote on Instagram, or whether it was a piece of art, we're always valuing how long it took us to do the thing, not how long it took us to live what it took to do that thing. I also think we think that because art can be joyful or easy to make, that it shouldn't be worth money. Because I had a really good time writing my book, I should give away it for free. Yes. Which is ridiculous. I think we almost feel like we've got it too good.

57:49Could I love the process and be paid for it yes you could because your art has a lot of value and you deserve to be paid for it again i want artists to understand that what you are making has value you deserve money for it yeah yeah no and i think about it all the time like there's also this feeling of if you're doing something truly to help people it should be absolutely free yeah and and that's a really interesting one oh go on you have a reaction I can see your reaction to that. I think it happens for artists a lot too. And I get a lot of creatives telling me that, oh, they're family members asking for free art.

58:26Or, you know, if you really wanted the world to change, you would give it away for free. Lots of narratives, again, constantly asking artists to work for free, devaluing creatives, devaluing artists. And it's so painful because it's kind of a seductive narrative. I actually really want to hear what you have to think about it. but this idea that it's only generous if there's not a value exchange it's just so cruel and it leaves artists first of all it perpetuates the scarcity story and the artists are poor we have no money which means we end up not creating that much which means we don't have the money which means we're working multiple jobs which means we can't create the art like if we don't support and nourish artists with money we lose artists so we need to be paying our artists if you want more art If you want a world that is filled with books and movies and creations and musics and beautiful gardens and good food, we need to support our artists.

59:18And I still think that when we put our art up for sale and when we sell it, it is a profoundly generous act, especially when we ask for money for it in return. Yeah, you asked my opinion on it. It's similar to yours. I remember at one point in my life, I had 100 million views and I was four months away from being broke. and I was starting to think okay I'm gonna have to go back to work I'm gonna have to get a job again and I know that the job I would probably get would be demanding because that's the job I'd get with my education and everything I have and therefore I'd probably not be able to do much of this anymore and that means if I can't make this anymore but the hundred million views I have the comments and everything I'm reading are Jay this really helped me this changed my life I shared it.

1:00:02I like all the comments I'm reading are like, people are benefited by this, but I'm not going to be able to do that anymore because I don't know how. And I remember going through that whole process and I was thinking, well, wait a minute. And at that time I was shaming and guilting myself for even thinking that I could charge for something. And I was like, well, how do I do that? And like, but people are getting value from it, but then I really want to do it for free because that's how I was trained to always. And obviously with my monk background, it's like everything was for free and everything was charity work.

1:00:30And so I really had that conditioning. And then I thought to myself, well, if I give up what I love that helps people and serves people and I can't do it any longer, is that the world I want to live in? And it was a really clear answer where it was like, well, no, I want to live in a world where I can do this forever. I can help more people do what they want to do. We can even create teams that will all be living a purposeful life that they want to, excuse me, that they want to live in. Yeah. And we'll be able to hopefully impact so many more people who create amazing journeys for themselves. And I'm so glad that despite any criticism, shame, guilt that comes with that path, I'm glad I made that choice because I'm far happier having pursued that than I would have been if I just went, okay, well.

1:01:14I'm done. I'm done now because I can't afford to do this anymore. What a huge loss for the whole world if you would have been like, I'm done. And for myself. And for you, yeah. and and the creative of like just also just not just thinking about well i can't make more if i don't have enough to make with like yes who am i going to pay to edit the video exactly how am i going to film this and how how all of this and there was even even with the podcast which which is free and i always thank everyone for us allowing to have our sponsors and our ad partners which is the way we're able to do this and we're so i always said this to everyone i'm well not I say this to my friends behind closed doors.

1:01:48I'm like, we're so selective over which brands we work with, which companies we partner with in order to present that to our community. And we probably leave more on the table than we even make because of that desire to get it right. And I'm not saying that to sound holier than thou or sound. What I'm saying is everything's done intentionally. And I think if it's done intentionally, there's a heart there and there's a truth there of wanting to serve and wanting things to be good. Yeah. And the podcast is absolutely free. But there are certain things that may not be if that person wants to hold that integrity for themselves.

1:02:22I love that. No, it makes a huge amount of sense. I think artists are just constantly, people always want to call them out for selling out. And I don't know why we're so vulnerable to that narrative. Because you don't go up to your accountant who's doing, you know, important work and say, why are you being paid for this? We don't go up to, we don't ask other people, why do you want money for your job? But we ask artists that all the time. We ask creatives that all the time. And it's interesting. And I don't fully understand the narrative there, but I question it. And I want to like double down.

1:02:56Like we deserve to be paid and we deserve not to be questioned about that as well. Like, of course, we bring value. We deserve money. Yeah, yeah. I think it's because, and that's a great point. It's like wanting to understand it. I think it's because emotional and spiritual exchanges are not valued in society as deeply. Yeah. Right? Like you can't, we all know there's people you meet that energetically make you feel better. Yeah. Because you don't know to pay for that as an energetic exchange. You almost think it's impure if you had to pay for it. So we see money as impure and we see art as pure.

1:03:29Yeah. And we don't like them touching. Correct. Whereas I want to very gently suggest that art is like messy, human, like not pure at all. It is holy and incredible and the most important force ever, but it's messy and it's human and it's ugh. Same with money. It's like, you know, none of these things are impure or pure. They're all very human ideas. And I believe art and money belongs together. I love that. I want to ask you a few more about some emotions that artists often go through. I think one of them today is oversaturation. Oh, yeah. This feeling of it's oversaturated. Like I was looking at someone the other day, a friend of mine said to me, they said, Jay, I feel like you were one of the first podcasts.

1:04:09And I was like, I think you must be kidding, right? and they're like no no no I think you were like one of the first podcast I was like I launched my podcast in 2019 and I pulled up this chart I googled it there were 336 ,000 podcasts that existed in 2019 and of course there are so many before that that were that were well known and big as well and it was like but to them because I was the first podcast they'd discovered I must have been the first podcast and I was like it's really the first thing of anything that takes off has lessons, has whatever. Today, I think there's over probably. I was about to ask, do you know the number?

1:04:42I think I could be wrong. So maybe like 2 million maybe today. Okay, cool, yeah. And so I'm sure it's high because it's been five years since we live. I want to say though, like 2 million isn't that high. Not for the world. There's 7 billion of us. People are like, I couldn't start a podcast. It's saturated. I'm like, it is. There's 2 million podcasts. There are so many of us. There are billions of us. I think we can kind of get the scale a bit confused sometimes. Totally. But yeah, whenever anyone says I can't, it's oversaturated.

1:05:11no. Plus there's no noise like your noise. Again, you're a one-time phenomenon. You're never going to be repeated. You have something to say that's never been said. You have a viewpoint that will never be replicated. You almost have your own market. Yes. There's so much. I see that more and more when I see creators come up and I'm like, there is so much demand in the world. We're so hungry for art. Yeah, for art and to be seen. And you can make people feel seen in a way that no one else can. And that's your superpower. And that's what's so beautiful about you. And that's what's needed. Because you're going to make someone feel seen, heard and understood in a way no one else can, in a way I can't, in a way you can't.

1:05:51in a way. I love that. Yeah. I really, I often use this example when people talk about oversaturation and art, because I think art sits in a really different space to other products. So for example, like a toaster, I only want one toaster or I could maybe want to, but basically I want one toaster, but I want hundreds of books. I want, I can watch so many films. I can have so much art around me. Like I want so many different types of plants for my garden. I want, you know, know, to try different types of food. Like we have a really, really big appetite for art. And so when people come in and say, I couldn't possibly be a writer, there's so many writers in the world.

1:06:28I'm like, I can't have enough books. Like I'm mainlining them on audio books, like just all the time. Like art is not toaster. It's not a fridge. We don't need just one of them. We have a much bigger market than you realize. And I always feel whenever a creative, I very gently say this when a creative comes to me and says i can't it's oversaturated i go there's got to be another reason yes you're playing small like because it's a it sounds great it sounds like a perfect excuse but we need your voice there is no nice no noise like your noise start taking up space yes and like two million podcasts seven billion of us and i want more podcasts i listen to new podcasts all the time totally and and most people i've found listen to a collection of podcasts i totally yeah people and i dabble was asking that like how do you feel about so many other podcasts coming up and and that's the funny thing it's like that's the conversation when you're established and the conversation when you're new is there's too many yes everyone's like oh and i'm like i love it because most people are listening to like two or three different podcasts at the same time it's how we like we don't all go i only watch netflix it's like no i like shows on apple and i like some shows on whatever else there is here sorry i'm i only know the american yeah that hbo and hulu and whatever else there is it's like you don't just go oh no no, no, I only watch this one platform.

1:07:45I only watch YouTube. I don't use Instagram. Like it doesn't work like that. No. And like on Instagram, it's like, oh, there's an oversaturation of poets. I'm like, give me all the poets. Yeah, exactly. I'm not just following one poet on Instagram. Totally. Totally. Yeah. And there's a renaissance for so many art forms at the moment because of social media, because we have this like connection economy and there is more space than ever before. And it can feel like there's a lot of noise because of these spaces. And because when you scroll through Instagram, you can see a lot of creators, but it's because we're hungry for it.

1:08:16And more than ever, we're hungry for very vulnerable, real connection. We're hungry for art in a world where we're showing a lot of, you know, listicles or like viral content, like we're hungry for human expression. And so it's time for artists to step up, take up space, share their art, make things because we're desperate for it. So yeah, I really won't hear anything to do with the saturated market i will shut that down another emotion i think a lot of artists experience is jealousy yeah if we're being really honest jealousy and envy of like i wish i had that i wish i got those views yeah i'm jealous of you jay but i am but i see jealousy as a compass i think it can be a beautiful emotion if we let it fester it can be toxic i love the way you use your platforms i love the art you make i love the way that you uh use this podcast like and in there is a definite like almost it feels a bit like jealousy like I want what you have but I can use that in a way that is incredibly inspiring to me in my art and I know where it is I want to go I can learn from you I can be taught by you I can follow in your footsteps and if we can use jealousy in that way rather than sinking down into patterns of comparison so instead of me sitting here and being like oh why am I not in Jay's position and like listing the reasons why and like comparing two incomparable artists.

1:09:35I can say, I can use jealousy as a compass. And I really wish that artists could see it in that way, because again, it's another emotion that can take us down. We can feel constantly less than, never enough. And I also feel like it's an emotion that maybe doesn't go away. I'm not sure if that's been your experience, if you've seen that, like, it doesn't matter how big you get, there's always someone who's got something that maybe you want or something like that. And it just, if you don't get a handle on it, I feel like it's not something that yeah it doesn't fade away with success yes yeah there's two questions I ask clients of mine when I'm coaching them and the first question is who do you envy and there's no one that I've met no matter how successful they are that doesn't know that word on the tip of their lips like that they know it and I've found that learning to deal with envy and transform it is core to happiness and fulfillment in life because you can't forget even how much you do what you love even if you did what you love every day and it paid you well you'd still be unhappy if you had envy in your life like envy is that force that what you're saying to use it as a compass and what I often do and I said this to you the moment you walked in because I love it the way you write I said to you oh yeah I probably need to take a workshop with you and that's me saying I'd rather study with you than envy you.

1:10:56I love that. Like that's the choice I get to make. I'd rather study you and your work and how you've learned that and study with you and grow and have a relationship with a mentor than to envy that person and want to never give myself the opportunity to grow and become, but only to unbecome and unlearn and kind of go backwards. That was stunning. I loved everything you just said so much. I feel like that's so beautiful. The idea that it's an opportunity to level up as soon as you feel that jealousy and envy. I think you've got two options. It's like you could really let this take you down or you could really let this take you up.

1:11:31So it's very exciting. Yeah, it's similar with imposter syndrome. I have to feel like imposter syndrome is a sign that you've leveled up as well. You're in that new skin and it feels like uncomfortable. But yeah, it's an opportunity to say, no, I'm gonna learn from you. I'm gonna sit at your feet. I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We Need Your Art is out right now. I'm excited for everyone to grab a copy of the book. Amy, is there anything that I haven't asked you that's really on your heart or something you wanted to talk about that we somehow didn't get to that you want to share now that intuitively is coming to you?

1:12:02Yeah, I mean, we could talk for a long, long time. For sure. I think I want to talk about how when I wrote We Need Your Art, it was not long ago, I love that I got to speak to the creative experiences from in the trenches. And because it can be such a challenging experience navigating yourself as a creative, there's so much rejection, silence, imposter syndrome, comparison, like so much of what we've spoken about. And I love that I got to write this book in it. Like I'm still experiencing rejection, still experiencing violence. Yeah, exactly. And I love that I got to, yeah, delve into this topic with everyone as we all navigate it.

1:12:45And yeah, I'm very excited for people to get to read this book and for me to be on that journey with them. Like the greatest privilege in the world for me is to sit by an artist and watch them create. There's no greater honor to me. So I'm very excited for this book, Baby, to be in people's hands. That's beautiful. Me too. I really believe it's going to be that, you know, that generational book that's going to inspire all these new creators and artists at a time when I don't feel ever since social media took off, we've really had a book that speaks to that dilemma of being an artist. And I feel like We Need Your Art is that book.

1:13:20Thank you, Jane. I'm really excited for you and excited for everyone to have it. Excited to read it myself and have it. But, Amy, we end every On Purpose episode with a final five. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So Amy McNeil, these are your fast final five. I've been preparing. I love it. I love it. Question number one, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? I love what Liz Gilbert says when she says, this world is just a school for endless learning. I love this idea. And I feel like you embody this so much. It's like, this is just a school for endless learning.

1:13:55We just get to keep being curious, keep learning, keep making mess. and then finding something magic within it. And I love taking that into each day because it allows for so much room and it gives me, even if it's shitty or if it's good, I love it. I love it. Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? Honestly, like in a more general term, it's like, be careful. I wanted to recklessly pour myself into my art. I wanted to be risky. And the words I kept getting was, be careful. and it made me feel like I was doing something wrong but I love the invitation for artists to rebel to be the revolution to just be messy and recklessly like throw themselves into this creative life I just got goosebumps I was like that's really like they're so right that that cautiousness which is for safety but always ends up feeling like it trapped you instead of keeping safe yeah that's beautiful I love that uh question number three what is the worst piece of art you've ever made oh man you should talk to my my partner so we write books together and so I'll write the first draft and then he'll read it and watching his face as he reads my first draft he's like what is this he's here right now yeah and you know it's because I and I pride myself on this I write spectacularly shitty first drafts and I'm genuinely proud of it because I just word vomit It's just la, la, la, la, la.

1:15:22There's so much magic in there, but it is difficult to navigate as an editor. And poor James really has to wade through some shit. But I'm incredibly proud of my first drafts. I love it. That's great. And what is your favorite piece of art that you've ever created? I wrote a fiction book called Regrettably I'm About to Cause Trouble. And it's just that, it's that don't be careful kind of vibe. It's a witchy, historical fiction, like rebel book. and I loved it was this reckless abandon novel of just throw yourself in so she she has a special place in my heart I love that uh fifth and final question which we asked every guest who's ever been on the show if you could create a law that everyone in the world had to follow what would it be I want people to make some shitty art I want you to find out what happens when you take perfectionism out of the equation and you just let yourself create so yeah make shitty art It's all I want.

1:16:18I love it. Amy McNee, everyone, the book is called We Need Your Art. If you don't follow Amy already on Instagram, inspired to write. Amy, it's been such a joy. I look forward to getting to know you so much more. I'm so excited for you to continue to create art in this world. And we definitely need your art. So I'm so happy to have connected with your work and found it organically, fell in love with it. And it honestly does work wonders for me when I'm struggling and figuring things out. and just go to your page and find something that resonates very, very deeply. So anything I do that helps anyone, you get the credit for it too, because I wouldn't be able to do it without people like yourself.

1:16:56So thank you so much. Thank you for your art. We need your art. I'm so grateful for you. Thank you. Thanks, Amy. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my conversation with Megan Trainor on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out. My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for five minutes. It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C-section scar with all the stretch marks, now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked. But day three when I did it, I was like, you know what? Her thighs are cute. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut.

1:17:29Book ahead, save up to 50%, and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter, park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. Residents at Brightview Senior Living Communities enjoy enhanced possibilities, independence, and choice. Brightview Dulles and Great Falls offer vibrant senior independent living, assisted living, and memory care services through various daily programs, chef-prepared meals, safety and security, transportation, resort-style amenities, and high-quality care. Take financial possession of your apartment by December 31, 2025 and save.

1:18:05Discover more at brightviewseniorliving.com. Equal housing opportunity. Have you ever heard a story so unbelievable it just had to be true? Roof Man is the jaw-dropping new film about Jeffrey Manchester, played by Channing Tatum, a man who becomes infamous for breaking into over 40 McDonald's through the roof, then secretly living inside of Toys R Us for six months. With humor, suspense, and heart, Roof Man is a cat-and-mouse story that will keep you hooked until the very end. Don't miss Roof Man, only in theaters October 10th. This is an iHeart Podcast. Thank you.