SYLVESTER STALLONE: “I Wasn’t Stupid. I Was Just Misunderstood.”

26:37And then I could go to my grave going, I had an opportunity. The lack of opportunity, I think, is what drives people absolutely nuts and forces them, well, I start drinking and this and that because it hurts. It's like I'm never going to get a chance to really show my worth because the opportunity didn't present itself. And it really doesn't. No one's going to go, hey, show me how good you are. See if you can lift that 100 pounds and then I'll give you a job. Those opportunities are very, very, very rare. And that's why I think that Rocky touched so many sensitive nerves because of that situation.

27:17and not being allowed to show if you got it or you don't. I remember there was this guy who came into the gym, and there was a fellow that I was training. His name was Jerry Cooney. He was a big, tough, ranked heavyweight. And the guy came in and was even bigger than him and tougher looking. He was the head of the Hells Angels in Boston. And he comes in and he goes, I could kick everyone's ass. I'm the baddest of the bad. I think I could be heavyweight champion of the world. He goes, I want to spar you around. So Jerry goes, yeah, get into the ring. Guy gets in. He's about 290 pounds. He's huge.

27:58I would say the fight lasted 11 seconds, including the count. However long it took him to walk across the ring and throw one left hook, knocked the guy out. But here's what I took away from it. He goes, thank you. now i know i made the right decision you completely proved me that i yes i should have been a biker i am a biker i'm very successful biker i might be the scourge of the earth but i'm successful at it i never would have been so so a lot of the time to be able to have your dream even pop like oh thank you god now i know i can go back to doing my other jobs this episode is brought to

28:43Jay Shetty:you by Amtrak. You know that feeling when you're already tired and you haven't even gotten there yet? That's where Amtrak comes in. Leave the driving behind and settle into a comfortable seat with plenty of room to stretch out. Catch up on work with Wi-Fi, grab a snack at the cafe car, or just sit back and enjoy your favorite podcast. Choose a cellar or northeast regional and get there without the stress of getting there. Visit Amtrak.com to plan your next trip. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. I know how important every hire is for a business. If you need to make the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs.

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30:32Jay Shetty:Visit apple.com slash applewatchseries12. This episode is brought to you by Vinted. Value can be found anywhere, even in the clothes sitting untouched in our closets That's where Vinted comes in Vinted is a second-hand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer want and get more value out of them Whether you're running out of space, moving or simply updating your wardrobe Listing items is a quick and simple process and once something sells, Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you And the best part, there are no seller fees so you keep what you earn it's a simple way to clear out your closet be less wasteful and maybe make some extra money along the way give your clothes a second life with vinted download the vinted app for free to start selling with no seller fees so you keep every dollar you earn saying i made the right choice i think that's what differentiates you as i'm listening to you is that you were happy to start at being bad at what you did like you were okay yeah at starting from a place of this may work, it may not work.

31:37Jay Shetty:I want to give it a go. I just want an opportunity. And I feel like that's what's missing today because I think nowadays everyone thinks, oh, you've got to launch something that's worth a billion dollars, or you've got to launch something that goes to the number one on the box office. There's such a pressure to be the best at everything that you're not happy being the worst or the first. And so you never start. And then if you never start, then you're never going to get to be the best. There's that famous Zig Ziglar quote of, you don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great.

32:05Yeah, that's so true.

32:06Jay Shetty:And you were willing to start at the bottom wherever someone gave you a shot. Right. You know, I guess it's in the Bible, never put false gods before me. I never, and this will sound very egotistical, I never said, oh, God, I want to be him. That person I covet, whatever. I said, no, you just got to be you and the best you can be. And if you're mediocre, so be it. That's it. You're mediocre. Or if you have something unusual. But I just never caught on to like, oh, wow, I want to be exactly like this person and talk like him and dress like him. No. And that helped you. Not having someone you were chasing actually helped you because there was no pressure.

32:53Jay Shetty:I think so. I'm always shocked. Oh, yeah, I love this rock and roll singer. I've gone to 30 of his concerts. I go, why? Just buy the album, man. What are you, like, are you trying to absorb him in a way? Are you trying to morph into him? I never quite got that. And I don't know if that's a plus or a negative, but don't try to be someone you're not. I mean, you're not going to be that person ever anyway. You're just not. And so I just tried to follow my own, you know, stick with my weaknesses, like make them stronger, not try to be that dude up there who's already made it. So how dare you presume that you're on that same path?

33:37You're not.

33:38Jay Shetty:You were offered$360 ,000 to not play Rocky, but you were adamant that you had to play Rocky. That's a lot of money. That's a lot of money. Why were you so adamant that you had to play Rocky? I had been told no so many times, rejected so many times. I never really ever fathomed being rich. I knew what it was like to be poor. I had mastered poorness. I had gotten that down to a sinus, so I was able to live on nothing. But I knew no matter how much, if this was going to be my gateway to heaven, if I sold it for money, I'm going to hell. This is exactly what the story was about, is not being bribed.

34:31I almost looked at it as a bribe, but I know it sounds egotistical, but they didn't want me, so they continued to pay me. So are you bribing me? And I go, I just knew in my heart, if I sold this and this thing became successful, and this was what I had been building up to my whole life, I deserved the most miserable life. And I would have been miserable my whole life. I would have hated myself. I would have never understood the word, the meaning of happiness because I had sold out. Even today, to sit there and imagine, we're imagining right now I'm watching TV and there is actor number X doing a great job at it.

35:22And that could have been you. That's what you were built for. I mean, this whole trial and tribulation going this route and this and that and taking all these crazy challenges. they were leading up to this moment of will you or will you not crumble under the temptation of money and it would have been a complete disaster.

35:46Jay Shetty:Yeah, what an experience to be writing about a character who's not distracted by temptation and then to actually have to live it in your own life. That's a whole other book, isn't it? Yeah, that's a bad one. Was there ever in your life where you feel you did give into temptation and it didn't? Oh yeah, no, no question. So I understood temptation and I got it, believe me. And sometimes I would, I would have to take, like when I was a movie, taking tickets in a movie theater because I'm making$34 a week. And you know, if you can pick up an extra 10,$15, well, you're living big. You can actually have half a chicken for this week, Something like that.

36:25So I understood temptation, but I knew when the chips were down, this was more than temptation. This was that crossroad, and this was crossroad number two. And the other one would be marriage and perhaps then birth of a child. Those are the four major crossroads, I think. And I go, my God, if I do this, I'm going to, I can't even tell you the wrath I will feel for myself for being such a coward. And the fact that they also didn't want me really pushed my body. You know what I mean? It was like, you know what? This is exactly what I've been facing for years and years and years of saying you're not good enough.

37:08So I'm just going to play tough to get. That's it. I'm just going to, because I really felt I had nothing to lose.

37:14Jay Shetty:When you started playing the role, and obviously you were writing, directing, you know, you're involved so much. was there a sense of imposter syndrome? Was there a moment then where you started to lack confidence and started to question yourself while you were actually making it? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was that. I'll never forget. I was, it was freezing and I was not wearing my rocky clothes, which were my real clothes and workout. I just wrote Italian style on the back, but this is the junk I used to wear. And I said, now you got everything you want. are you really up to it? Are you as good as these other actors?

37:52You're not really experienced. And then finally, then I meet the guy outside. He goes, okay, Sly, we're ready. I said, Rocky, call me Rocky. From now on, I'm going to be that guy. And whenever I put those clothes on, I became that guy. You know, some actors, everyone has a different method. They really do. Like there's no, like how many different ways do you interpret a character? What is your training method? I think it's really very simple. I think Daniel Day-Lewis said it goes, it's good acting and bad acting. It's truthful and there's not truthful. You know, it's something like that. And that's really it.

38:34So I said from that moment on, I'm really going to actually believe I'm this guy. I'm going to start talking like that, you know what I'm saying? And all these like things. I'd see these other fighters they'd always be you know shifting their shoulders like always imagining like they're ready to fight or just staying loose and all these things started coming to me what I call isms little mannerisms and it really was it was quite different I could literally remain in a character 25 hours a day it was just I really felt comfortable

39:06Jay Shetty:you just saying that the idea of being true I think when you watch Rocky it feels very true yeah It feels very real. It feels very honest and earnest as well. You really feel his pain. You really feel that what he's experiencing. And it's something you can relate to as well. I feel, to me, some of the most powerful scenes were between Rocky and Mickey. Without a doubt. Yeah. That scene where I had written a scene and I felt it was too short, too mediocre. And then I said, you know, I'm going to play this scene like what I've wanted to say to my father. And I never did. and that scene of me, what about my life?

39:44What about, you know, you had a problem. I had nothing. That was coming from my soul. Because sometimes, I know other writers will disagree with me, some things can be beautifully written, but they're not as truthful. In other words, you haven't lived them. You're writing about them, but you haven't gone through them. And I did that twice. Here's the first example. When I did First Blood, at the very end, I made sure Rambo didn't talk until at the very end. He spits out everything that's been eating him alive. It's almost like an autistic person speaking for the first time. Now, I hadn't been to Vietnam.

40:29I had not had people die in my arms. So I'm writing from other people's experiences. And Rocky, that was my experience. I was living that. So one I was acting and one I was like psychologically flashing back.

40:46Jay Shetty:Do you believe that Rocky helped you grieve what you never received from your parent? Unfortunately, no. No, no. It didn't because I still feel it to this day. And it's something that you never really get over completely. I guess that has to do with DNA and genetics and stuff that we don't even understand that bind us together. with our parents. So you just try to come to terms with it. You try to have a better life with your family, and that's all you can do. But scars don't go away. You just can't laser them off because they're inside. They're not out here. Oh, yeah. Can you take the scar off?

41:29Hell, yeah. Can you take the one off my heart? Sorry. That's there forever.

41:35Jay Shetty:Yeah, I appreciate the honesty because yeah, it's kind of like a romantic idea to think that you can heal those scars on the inside. But what you said feels real. Yeah, it feels so true. And it's such a painful experience. And I've been watching this more and more, especially when I interview people who've lived decades of life, like you have real life experience and you go, you look back at that experience and say, that made me who I am today. That made you a fighter. It drove you to this incredible life. I got to meet your beautiful family today. Everyone's like the most sweet, kind, sincere family.

42:06Jay Shetty:like so hospitable, so welcoming, so warm, and made me feel so at home in your home. Like, I feel so, I'm like, I'll move in. It's fascinating that pain has to make that. And you go, is there another way? And I don't know. I've been thinking about that. What have you seen from your years of life and friends and family and people you know? Is everyone who's done life well gone through something painful? I think so. I think they do. And I think it's just a matter of coping with it. And, you know, it rears its ugly head now and then. You might see something it reminds you of and it triggers it. But, again, it'll settle down.

42:46Because, you know, I've gone through some pretty brutal things. And you can keep a lid on it for a while. But, of course, the lid does come off. And usually, hopefully, you're alone when that happens. And then it settles back down. I call it volcanic. It's like volcanic eruptions in your soul. You have them. It erupts now and then, but it never goes away. But I'm sure you've gone through it. How do you go through life without being beaten up? You start getting beaten up the minute you're born. This is as easy as it's ever going to get for you right now. You're crying over a toy. Guess what? that's the easiest it's ever going to be it gets a lot rougher when you have to cry over serious things in life

43:36Jay Shetty:Were a lot of the monologues in Rocky pep talks that you gave yourself when you were younger I know what you were just mentioning now getting beaten up obviously in Rocky Balboa you're talking about the scene with Mickey channeling emotions to your father what are other memorable moments for you that felt like you were channeling your own inner pain and emotions into a scene? I would have to say like when I'm speaking with my son, that one just came so fast. And a lot of people say, was that written for your son? I go, truthfully, I was writing about me. Like, are you going to live in the shadow of your father?

44:19Are you going to blame other people? So I was writing about literally what I had gone through as a young man and how you don't do that. That's not how winning is done. Get up, take the punches and keep going. So it was like self-reflecting. It was almost like a lesson to myself, a reminder of what you have to do to get through this thing called life. You know what I mean? Just keep punching, keep punching.

44:46Jay Shetty:I love that you said that Rocky's more of a love story than it is a sports film. Of course. That's why I think I like it so much too. What are the softer qualities of Rocky that you most identify with? He just is so sensitive to her feelings that when he does say things, you know, women, weak legs, and I got to stay strong, then he feels terribly sorry for what he said. Or when her brother starts to say terrible things about her, and like you slept with him, you did this, and that Rocky comes over and he has every reason to really destroy this horrible guy. But he forgives him. He understands his pain.

45:34And then he goes and he says to Adrian, you want a roommate? Or she says, you want a roommate? That's the difference. He understands other people's pain because he has been so torn apart by life. Oh, my God. I was going to write so much more about his father and about his mother. No one ever realized it, but in the movie, the loan shark was his brother, and they made me change it. Yeah. He was even working for his brother. like he's like that even my brother used me as a thug and and but the brother was also he was he was kind to him too there it was just interesting different dynamics and relationships that

46:24Jay Shetty:it was very biographical i mean honestly i i want to say it's just so brilliantly written as well yeah genuinely like i'm not just saying that i i grew up as a massive fan of autobiographies it's my favorite genre of books and so i grew up reading everything from i grew up in london so David Beckham and all the way through to Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. And so for me, I love reading about real life stories. And this one is just, I'm there with you. Like I can picture the scenes. I can experience it. I wasn't sure it was going to work at all. No, it's spectacular. Honestly, I mean that. It was grippy.

46:59Jay Shetty:I was there. I was just, it was so easy to read too. It's just, you're just fully there with you following the story along. But when I was reading it, I was thinking to myself, like one of the hardest moments was when, and you've talked about this in other places too, but like how your mom doesn't go to the Oscars with you. And, and I was thinking about how did that feel? And did you ever feel she was proud of what you'd achieved? No, never. No, it was, it's a very odd thing. She had been raised horribly too. And she was just passing that on. And I always thought, why would you have learned from that and not be the same, have the same degenerating kind of mentality that I'm going to make it even worse for someone else?

47:47Because someone was bad to me, so I'm going to show you. She was very witty. She was smart, but she never forgave me for, in her mind, destroying her opportunity. Like, it's, I mean, I'll never forget. I didn't put this in the book. Like, I was late for school, as usual. And there was a plate glass window, like glass. And my mother was like, hurry up, hurry up. I don't want you to stay home today. You got to be late for school. And she pushed me through the window because I stumbled. And I literally got close to 60 stitches here. I could see my bone. And the only reason I didn't bleed to death is there were workers next door building a house.

48:35And they came and took me to the hospital and like sewed me up. And it was so critical. They couldn't at that time give me Novocaine or anything because it was that bad. I go, do you remember when you pushed me through the window? He goes, you tripped. I go, you pushed me. Now, here's where I'm getting at with the story. In a lot of other ways, she just pushed and pushed and pushed me in terrible directions and very, very mean to people around me, mean to my wife. And at the very end, when she was like 90, I said, do you regret anything? And he goes, no, never. In her mind, she never made a mistake.

49:22And I'm wondering, is that a gift from God that you're able to completely block out truth, that you could go to your maker with actually no guilt whatsoever? Or are you completely a psychotic? You literally have lied to yourself so much that lying is the preferred format of how to conduct your life. I will just lie about everything until it becomes natural. And I'm just, and that's what it was. She literally had never told the truth her whole life that she became very comfortable. She never had a thought of, I'm actually telling a lie. No, it was all her lies became truth. And I saw that. Was that a gift or is that a curse?

50:11I don't know. But anyway, you could see the effect has been, was long lasting. I think it even affected my brother more because I was able to somehow turn it into something creative. Really, I do a lot of painting and stuff like that, and it comes out. It just pours out.

50:31Jay Shetty:Why did you choose to leave that out of the book? I didn't want to sit there and sound like I'm just whining and complaining and oh, woe is me. The truth is everybody in this room has issues, has had moments. If they haven't, they're really, really blessed. They really are blessed. But everyone has had to deal with this situation called dark side of life. And I just don't want to say, oh, again, you're not the only one, Sly. There's people a lot off, a lot worse than you are, a lot worse. I mean, I've been literally tortured to death. and so I just thought let me just leave it at this relatable level people can relate to this but if you go too far so you know because I could have gone believe me oh really oh trust me don't trust me oh yeah my family knows about it it was it was really quite unbelievable yeah Thank you for sharing that.

51:36For what it's worth, I think you being that open about what you've been through and how much drive you had, I'm hoping that that's actually going to help a lot of our listeners find their motivation in their life. As you said, it's very complicated because I'll tell you another story. It's very, very odd. My mother, for some reason, I always was still trying, always trying. And I never felt it was giving back. Then when my father, who is also a tough cookie, he's dying. And he has a form of cancer. and she calls up hysterical crying, like, be nice to him, please, show love and kindness like I gave to you, I'll pass it on to him.

52:27And I was literally just sitting there, I said, do you mind if I tape this because I can't believe what I'm hearing. He said, you can do whatever you want, but please do something for your father before he dies. And I'm thinking, this is the woman that made his life hell, and he made her life hell. And now they care about each other rather than their own children. And I thought that was quite fascinating that when you're really at death's door and how priorities shift. Like, this is the man you divorced 50 years ago and hated. You used to talk about him in a horrible term. Now you're shedding.

53:16I've never heard you sob, heaving, like in my life. And then when I passed the word on to him, he goes, always please be kind to people. And I said, do you have to be near death to feel like this, that you feel as though you should have been kind to everyone? He goes, yes. And I went, wow. You see all the confusion? People are so complicated, and they're beyond Rubik's Cubes. They're made of flesh and bone, and that transitions all the time. It's always morphing. The same person you met at 10 is not at 20, and 20 is not the same at 30. And they evolve. It takes a very erudite individual, quite perceptive, to sort of understand the machinations and the mechanics of how people will change.

54:18We're not furniture. We're not, oh yeah, that antique's perfect. We're not antiques. We are slowly becoming aging artifacts of the past. Yeah.

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55:14Jay Shetty:A lot can happen when an accident doesn't. Visit mazdausa.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. Was it confusing to be at the moment when you were losing your parents? Yes, it was. It was. It was very sad. Because, you know, you go, why does it take so long to have a realization of something so profound that my father was a very, very physical man, you know, big time. like I'm talking on the floor, let's go. And to have this revelation, I'm like, my God, maybe he had that in him, but he just didn't know how to release it at the time. So you start to go through all this stuff.

56:07And then it's like the Robert Frost poem. We all dance around and ring and wonder, and the answer sits in the middle of no's. And that's what drives us. That's what drives, you know, all intellect is driven on curiosity of not knowing what it's all about. So we all develop philosophies. And this is my interpretation. This is my religion. This is how I see it. You know, and each of us have a different proportional way of dissecting their lives going, this is the direction that works best for me. Where it may work terrible for. Or like, I'm going to be a tough son of a bitch in my life, and no one's going to hurt me, and that's my route.

56:51And that's what he did. See what I mean? No one's going to crack this crust. But it did crack at the end, see? And I wonder if he blew his whole life by not being the really genuine person he could have been.

57:05Jay Shetty:Yeah. And I always think about that, because I have traits. I have habits that reflect his. Even to this day, they come out and I go, God, that's him. He's still, you know, your parents, for better or worse, they're still alive in you. Even when they move on, there's trademarks of them. Idiotic. Boy, you laugh. You laugh like a mother. You know, your hand gestures. It's like drives you fucking crazy. You know what I mean? What do you do about this? What do we do about this? It's like, you know, get an exterminator? No, there's nothing. An exterminator for the soul? No. That's why it's so goddamn complex, and that's why our minds are always churning.

57:56I mean, I used to study all these different kinds of theologies and even chanting and, you know, tantra this and so on and so on. And you go, how do you clear out the mind? Like, I think it's almost virtually impossible to be without thought. I agree. You know, just, I think it really is just to be, give me one minute of no thought. Well, that's a thought right there. You don't think you're thinking. It's just, it's wild. So it's how do you corral these thoughts and try to keep them under control? Some of them are destructive. They're there to like test you. It's really a pain in the ass.

58:41Jay Shetty:Life is a pain in the ass. It really is. I was going to ask you, you said your dad's version was almost like this, be this tough cross, this thick. Yeah. You know, I'm stronger. How would you define your philosophy of life? Oh, now you're getting deep. I feel like you're a philosopher in this book. Your movies are philosophical. Like everything has such an undertone of just life advice in everything you do. Like it speaks to me. I used to think that I'd like to confront things head on. And my philosophy is like sort of not, not confront him head on because, you know, like sometimes it's not worth the battle.

59:23For example, when I wrote Rambo in the book, he was a homicidal maniac and he was just running to violence. He couldn't wait to kill because that's what he'd been trained for. When I took it over and started to rewrite it, I had him running away from everything, avoiding it, trying not to confront his demons. Just like, I don't want to fight with people because I know I'm going to get crazy and take your life. So I felt as though I was very confrontational. And I think it wasted a lot of my life being angry. You know, that old thing, they'll turn the other cheek. I never turn the other cheek. I was just the most combative and looking for a challenge.

1:00:18And I always felt as though I had to compete with people that weren't even competing with me. I just thought that, like, I have to try to be the best. I have to try to be the best. You know, because I was always told I was not the best. So that kind of thing. And it took me until... Allohm. And maybe 70 years old to stop doing that. To just like, let it lie. Let other people have their moments. Don't always be competing. Don't always invent these frigging dragons that you have to slay. There are no dragons. They're only in your mind that you just are looking for some reason to stay relevant. You're relevant.

1:01:02You don't have to continue to battle and also to be envious and jealous. That in my profession reigns supreme. Because people in my profession, when you're rejecting, you're not rejecting a product or a car you're selling or rugs you're weaving. You're rejecting the flesh on your bones. You are not good enough anymore. You're passe. You're leftovers. And actors go through that. And that's a terrible death. I've always said, you know, actors die twice. And the second one is a lot easier than the first one. Because you're being told that you're not valid or nobody wants you anymore. I've been told that.

1:01:50You know, like when I was going to do Rocky VI, Rocky Balboa, it was a very interesting time. My career was in a slump like for eight years. That phone had spider webs. It was a dead, dead instrument. And I thought, wow, the only way I'm ever going to get out of this is to write my way out of it. So I wrote Rocky VI. And the movie is about grief and it's about loss. It's not about fighting at all. It's about pain, replacing old pain with new pain, something like this. Rocky couldn't live without his wife. and this situation here is something that I knew I had to do because no one was hiring me anymore.

1:02:37So I said, let me write something like this. And again, the studio said, you're over and Rocky is dead. You're both are finished. And I found one person who said, all right, let's just give it a try. And it turned out to be a very big hit. and I went on to do Rocky and Rambo and Expendables. But literally, it took something like that to dig yourself out of this. It's really remarkable when you're told, told, you're done, your character is done, you're finished in this business, nobody wants you.

1:03:14Jay Shetty:Which one was harder, being told you weren't good enough at the beginning or being told you were done after you'd had massive success? After, afterwards. Why did you believe it more that second time? Because you went through all the trials and tribulations. You were incredibly successful. You achieved all your dreams. And then now you're worthless. I go, wait a fucking minute. Worthless? Now I'm back to 10 years old again? I'm back to reliving that whole chapter again? After I've done, we've won awards, we've won the Oscar, everything? thing, you have no value anymore. So that to me was, cause you're a grown ass man now, you know, it's that kind of, it's like, it's so humiliating.

1:04:01It's one thing as a child, but as an adult and having done it, climbed to the highest peak in this industry, this be told that you're on your way to hell and there's nothing and you're gone. There's, you just don't mean anything anymore. That's a rough one. See, it's not like, oh, we don't like your product. you're the product. So I feel great empathy for performers. And I feel that way all performers, writers, dancers, anyone that they feel the impending clock ticking. That's like, I always put like 90 % of my paintings, there's always a clock in it because I feel that thing, you know, that horrible impediment of time.

1:04:44How do you value time today? Time is more precious now than ever because I've put my body through a lot. I've had nine back operations, three neck fusions. I've had heart problems. I've had everything that you like. Always use the stuntman. That's my motto from now on. If I can pass on any knowledge to young actors, use the stuntman. Okay? You know what I mean? Because it's going to catch up to you at the end. So I realized that I'm on borrowed time. The average age is 77, 78. That's when you say goodbye. I'm 80. So I'm three years over the quota of where you should be saying sayonara to this life.

1:05:27So I look at it as very, very important. I mention it to my wife all the time. I got to keep living. I got to keep staying alive. I got to enjoy my life now more than those other 80 years. And I said, Jesus, if I could just get a few more out of this, then I'm going to understand what true happiness is. Not manufactured, not semi, not partial, like full. Real friends. I mean, really honoring your friends. I mean, friends are hard to come by. Really, really hard to come by. And I've had one friend like for 65 years. So you've got to covet that. That's a very rare thing. And that only comes with age, and age can play tricks on you.

1:06:14One time, just walking. Because I was supposed to pass away a couple of times because of just inner problems and just beating up my body so badly.

1:06:25Jay Shetty:How close did you get? Oh, I got close. I got like two heart attacks, like major. And then I go, come on. God, give me a break, will you please? I'll be a nice guy. I'll be all right. I promise I'll use my time to the best of my ability. Also, here's what's weird, and I don't know if this is just self-delusion, and you're a young man now, and you'll feel it, you know, hopefully when you catch up, which would be a long time in your case, that you're doing your best work. Now, you may not be writing your best or painting your best, because I can see the generation in painter, you can say, oh, he was better, Picasso was better when he was 40 years old than he was at 90, without a doubt.

1:07:21But I find that acting, I've had so many different dramas in my life, and I've taken away, and I've had my heart broken, and I've broken hearts. And I've done, in other words, you've done so many things that now when I speak, I'm not acting. I'm not just saying the words. I'm feeling the words. And that's the difference in acting. Anybody can learn words. But to understand the words, you gotta have lived it.

1:07:53Jay Shetty:You're talking about friendship. How do you define a good friend? A good friend literally will show up when you don't even need him. You know, he's just there for you. He can sense that when you're sad, like if a tragedy happens, God forbid, they're the first one on the phone or at your house. If you want to insult them, ask them, hey, do you need some money? And they go crazy on you because that's not a friendship. That'll be the end of it. You know, that kind of thing that wants nothing from you, wants to give what they got. That's a beautiful definition. And you have a 65-year friendship, you said.

1:08:29Yeah, I do. That's unbelievable. I do. I don't mind. How often do you talk? Every other day. Wow. I know. Isn't it weird? That's impressive. No, it's great.

1:08:37Jay Shetty:That makes me feel... I talk to the best man from my wedding every other day. Do you really? My best friend. We've been best friends for 20 years. Yeah, well, keep that up. Keep that up. Because he's going to know things about you that no one your parents will ever know. Yeah, exactly. He's the only person in the world I can tell everything to. Exactly. And he won't judge me. And I don't feel embarrassed sharing something that I might feel a bit, you know. It's amazing. They know exactly what's on your brain, how you think, how you don't think. I mean, it's just great. Yeah. You've been married for 29 years with Jennifer, who I just got to meet, who's absolutely wonderful.

1:09:10Jay Shetty:What do you believe you had to unlearn from how your parents raised you through their marriage? The greatest asset people can have right up there in the top three is, I've always thought patience is not a virtue. I thought impatience to me was a virtue, like, let's get it done. Well, not so. When you have someone who has patience that is willing to ride out the storms without any shelter, just bear themselves to the volatility of your personality and all the baggage you bring, which I brought a lot. And she was so healing. and the patience she showed, because, I mean, she inherited my parents.

1:09:59She inherited this whole thing. And it wasn't until, you know, they eventually moved on that I really said, this is the greatest woman ever born. This is the greatest. And I try to say it every day, you know. I never go to bed without saying I love you, ever, ever, ever. And that was never the case, you know. I didn't know what love was. I really didn't. Love is the most complex word there is because there's a billion different kinds of love. And then when you hit on that one where you say, I can't live without this person, that's it. That's love. That's it. You're done. Done. Go no further. It's like what Calhoun Gibran would say, love is the thing that can take you the highest and at the same time drive it to the lowest.

1:10:50It's a sword hiding within the pinions of the feathers of the angel. Like in those feathers is also,

1:10:58Jay Shetty:be careful, is a sword. So it's, I mean, let's face it, it's a one-word novel. You could literally write, and people have. I mean, has there ever been a better writer than Shakespeare about love? And yet it goes on and everyone, But everyone has a different interpretation. It's that, well, you died for this person. Can you not live with this person? Would you literally want to follow this person into the ground? That's the person. You mentioned the word true happiness a few times in our interview. How do you define true happiness? Oh, when your wife's happy. That's really happy. Because if that's working, nothing's working.

1:11:42Trust me on that one. because the woman, they transition as they move on. They become your lover, and now it's your companion, and now it's your boss, and it's your mother, and it's your guide. It's your woman that holds it all together. And I was just talking to my wife about that, about how the different stages. A man, not as much as a woman because they go through birth. It's like, well, they're not going to be the same after that. You know, it's like, and they raise all the children. That's a lot of work. So they're going to be different than they were when you met them at, you know, 20. So as you can imagine, you have to somehow, and she brought this up recently, you have to adapt to their adaptation.

1:12:28Because that's like, you're not the same as you were. No, I'm not. I was 20 years old and I was carefree and happy. Now I've had to live an entire life, support a family, support you, support this. go through tragedies, go through exaltations. I'm different. And you have to treat them different.

1:12:47Jay Shetty:You're never married to the same person. You're not. You're definitely not. I go, God, whatever happened to that kid? Well, you lived life and life changes you. There's no getting around it. It's like changing your skin sheds. Well, so does your soul. You mentioned in your documentary, this beautiful statement that life before 40 is about addition. And life after 40 is about subtraction. What have you had to learn to let go of? Well, up until 40, there's a sense of almost invulnerability, like I'm getting there. And then I realized a lot of the relationships that I thought were good were business relationships.

1:13:31And any relationship based on money is not a relationship. It's commerce, okay? Period. and when that commerce stops, you wonder why your phone stops ringing. It's not complicated. And then loved ones start to go and that's where the pain starts. That's where you really want to hang on to your friends at the beginning because they're going. We're on our way out. There's no maybe about this, not a guessing. People always go, oh, I wish I could live forever. No, you don't. If your friends are all gone and your love is gone, your wife is gone, your children are gone, you really want to be a vampire, really?

1:14:12Does that sound good to you? Not to me. It sounds like the worst curse there can be, you know, that kind of a thing. That's when I really, when I wrote about Rocky, I said, this is, he's going to undergo the worst grief a man can undergo. And it was not aging, it was his life, his love, you know. the reason he woke up every morning and had someone, I love you, that's gone. There's a pillow next to you that will never be felt. Brutal, brutal, brutal, brutal. And that's what that whole thing was. That's why I knew that to me, Rocky 1 and that was the best one because it was so true. You know, I've come close to that a few times.

1:15:02I said, nah. Yeah. So right now it's the happiest because when you get to be a certain age, you kind of figured out all the mysteries and you realize they weren't mysteries. They were common sense, but you were too stupid to realize it because you had the foible of youth, the invincibility, like, yeah, I know everything. Like, God forbid, if we had listened to our parents about our grandparents, they say, listen, don't do that. Fire is hot. Don't stick a hand. Maybe to you, but I'm not going to feel it. You know what I mean? If we had just listened to some of those life lessons and avoided all those pitfalls, oh my God.

1:15:44You know what I mean? Especially about love and relationships. That's not going to happen to me. Oh yeah, it does. Do you have any regrets? I have so many regrets. It would really take about another 10 hours for you. Yes, you have regrets because you took chances. And regrets are the failure of taking chances. You regret it. Oh, God, I went for that. You know, it was romantic here. You know, I tried to become the finest athlete, and I was never. I was not good. I failed. Regret, regret, regret. But more regret is where you've used your mouth in the wrong way and said the wrong words. And that is really, because you can't take them back.

1:16:32If someone's willing to forgive, but you have patience, they understand you said that out of anger. That's not me. Well, it is you, but it's a part of you you don't want to bring out. You know, he was just in a bad mood. Well, that bad mood came from somewhere. He's got to learn how to control it. But yeah, that's all part of forgiving that because God knows. He's forgiven me a billion times. Also, if you're complex, I mean, Jesus, be careful what you wish for. I want a complex person, no use of those. I want a person with a single track mind and like, yes, really simple. you get the complex ones they're always questioning everything and that's me

1:17:22Jay Shetty:so you're the complex one ah yeah she's the balanced one, the straight head the honest one, the one that figures it out it's really interesting, she says something all the time, it's very interesting math does not lie numbers don't lie but when you're, she's pragmatic when you're abstract abstracts lie because you change it you change the story you tell the story 10 different ways you embellish it as you get older it gets bigger and the fish gets larger and like it just but when you're a pragmatic person you just see things for black and white and that's that's the right way to see it like practical i'm impractical like i told you i bought this ourselves without looking at it.

1:18:13That's not practical.

1:18:15Jay Shetty:But it worked out. It worked out because she did the investigating. Right. So you need, it's a good balance. Oh my God. Yeah. Are you kidding? So many things that you just thought you needed in your life. Like, why did I have to buy a bear trap? Did I really need that? Or why do you think so? Like, did you need 10 pair of red shoes? Like stupid. I mean, I'm exaggerating, but we just do things whereas she'll be, think about it. In a year from now, will you burn those things? Probably, yes. So why are you buying this? You don't need it. You don't need 30 watches. Time is time. You don't need that, that kind of stuff.

1:18:57So it's common sense.

1:18:58Jay Shetty:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Last thing I wanted to quote from your book that really stayed with me. And it said, I had to calm down, and it's this part, and convince myself that dreams are put here on this earth to comfort us through the very dark storms that rage in our souls. And that was really powerful, I thought, how lucky we are to dream, to have the opportunity to dream. Imagine without a dream, that means you have no aspirations to go any further than where you're going. And I also said in there, too, that sometimes people can get so lost in dreams, but dreams are also a cloud that will eventually dematerialize and disappear.

1:19:48So with that dream must come a solid vision of what you're talking about. Oh, I dream I was rich and famous. How are you going to do that? Oh, I don't know. I'm not sure yet. That's when you need a vision. I'm going to go here. I'm going to do this for a year. I'm going to work eight hours a day no matter what. Sometimes I would sit there and I didn't feel it. And I would literally sit at that desk, put a clock there, and I wouldn't move. I said, I'm going to torture myself. If I don't come up with something, because I don't believe totally in writer's block. I understand it. It does exist. No question about it.

1:20:34But how do you overcome writer's block? You block the block. You sit there, and I'm going to outlast you. And eventually your brain will go, this is so boring. It'll come up with something. Something. You'll just start doodling before you know it. It starts to come out. And that's how I would get over writer's block. It's easy to get right in the block when you're not making any money. So you're writing and no one's buying it. So what's inspiring you? Nothing. So you got to inspire yourself.

1:21:10Jay Shetty:In your best days, how much are you writing? How many hours a day? I used to write. I'd start at 11 at night and write till like 5 in the morning. That was mainly during Poe. And it was very, very dark and nihilistic writing, the subject matter. And then I started doing investigation, and the majority of writers would write in the morning. So I would write at about, oh, God, five in the morning till about three in the afternoon, which is a lot. Wow, that's a lot. It is a lot. And also, if I didn't, it wasn't just because sometimes it's just not rolling out. Then I would go back and rewrite. So I always had something to do.

1:21:55Because writers don't write, they rewrite. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They really do.

1:22:02Jay Shetty:Yeah. I can't imagine writing this book. How much was it cathartic? How much was it healing? How much was it painful to revisit? Some was really painful. Yeah, some was. What was the most painful moment to revisit and live through again? When my father was selling me a car, a$40 piece of junk, and I was going to drive that to California. I was driving into the unknown and he apologized to me for being a bad father and I'm sorry. And I wanted to literally attack him. I said, please don't say this. Don't all of a sudden change my thoughts about you and this and that. And I felt as though maybe I did something wrong.

1:22:48Whatever, I was a bad son and you were, whatever it is, of just don't change the way a relationship is by making me feel so sorry for you. You know what I mean? And it killed me. It killed me. Whereas I never had that with my mother. And then as an adult, it was when I wrote Rocky and they were starting to tempt me with all this money and I needed it. I went out in the back. I'll never forget because I almost broke my hand, my fingers, when I started pounding this baked hard rock of a backyard from the sun. Because I said, God, it's like I was saying to God, like, give me the strength not to quit, not to buckle, not to be cowardly and give in.

1:23:47Just let me fight this fight until I win. And if I don't win, it's okay. At least I have my pride. I'm willing to go the distance, but I don't, I feel like I don't have the strength at this moment. I need more. So I got the strength from somewhere to, because that was like$2 million today. It was like a lot. That's why in the beginning of Rocky, I start with the picture of Jesus and come down. There's a reason for that. It's like this fella has been chosen to do something very noble for other people to see. Like he's this poor, broken, discarded man is going to evolve into something because he believes.

1:24:37And you notice he always did give thanks.

1:24:41Jay Shetty:Yes, always, yeah. Always. And he just run by and take the blessings before the fight. Without beating people over the head with it, you know, but just enough. Like, if I get beat up, it's not too bad. Do you still talk to God today? I do. I think it's very therapeutic. And there's a point where you have to stop talking to yourself. Go to a higher power. So, yeah. And I have this beautiful sculpture on my desk. It's literally life-size of Jesus. It's powerful looking. Sly, the last five questions, these have to be answered in one sentence maximum. We ask these to every guest who's ever been on the show.

1:25:21Jay Shetty:The final five today is brought to you by State Farm. It's important to have the right people in your corner to help you live your best life. State Farm and their agents are just a call or click away to help you choose the right coverage for you. What's the best advice you've ever received? You must face life with the eye of the tiger. That's an old Indian quote. And that is what I always have. The other thing is to be loved, To love and be loved in return is the greatest gift, like the song goes, that we can have. That is the greatest gift, to love and be loved in return, period. Question number two, what's the worst advice you've ever had or received?

1:26:01You have too many flaws to make it in the world of a professional. So stick to something physical. Get a job like that. and in other words, learn to use your muscles, not your mind. That was the worst advice I ever got.

1:26:21Jay Shetty:Question number three, if someone feels down on their luck right now, what would you say to them? You got to be very realistic about your talent. You have to be really honest with yourself. If you're down on your luck because you're trying to do something you're not equipped to do, then it's your fault. If you're down on your luck because the opportunity has presented itself is to hang in there. But the most important thing is to thine own self be true. Your ambitions should never exceed your ability. Period. And it does. You know, guys think that why am I the lead in that movie? Because you don't have the ability.

1:27:06You're not that, you know, it's a God-given thing. People ask me, what makes a star? Exactly, that's it. What you just said, yes. A mystery makes a star. It's a mystery. There is no formula.

1:27:21Jay Shetty:Yeah, well said. Question number four for the book, The Steps. What are you hoping that readers will get? No, I'm hoping that readers get this, that they look at this as somewhat of a guideline of how a journey can eventually lead to a positive result. But understand a journey is all uphill. You're fighting gravity the whole way. So be strong, be tough. Your hands are going to get bloody, but keep clawing away until you reach the top of the steps. That's definitely the message people are going to get. Oh, really? Yeah, very clearly. Oh, good. Very clearly, yeah. While I was reading it, I was like, it was regenerating all these emotions of just like what it takes.

1:28:05Jay Shetty:Oh, thank you. I haven't interacted with a piece of writing or film or television recently that's just like reminding you of what it takes. You know, I think, and that's so important to just remember what it takes because then you'll never quit because this will remind you that this is what it takes. There's no shortcuts. No. There's no easy paths. There is definitely no shortcuts. And if it is, it's going to be very ephemeral and quick. Like, oh, someone got you the job. It's that thing and it won't last. Because, you know, it's really, I'm sure you've been asked, like, how come you made it and this guy didn't?

1:28:39And, you know, you can be very vain and say, because I have more talent. But maybe you worked harder. That's just it. You were just hungry. You had the eye of the tiger. Just something that wouldn't let you stop. But you also, you had the stuff. You had the right stuff. If you don't have it, you can't manufacture it. Like my brother said once when he's very drunk, he said, he goes, you know, you can't be better than you are. I go, you're right. You can't be better than you are. You can't really. I'm not going to be the best basketball player. No, thank God you were drunk when you said it because now I'm going to remember it.

1:29:24But it's so true. Yeah, it is true. really can't be better than you are. And some people, and some people spend their whole lives fretting over that. It's going, I know. Yeah.

1:29:36Jay Shetty:You just put the ladder up the wrong wall. Yeah. There's another wall that you can put your ladder up against and climb up. Yes. That one you might be able to climb. Yes. And fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? It's really funny because the laws of human nature are the ones that, like in the Bible, whatever, they're the ones that we're most prone to do, you know? Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not cover thy neighbor's wife. It's all the things that you write about, you see about, you watch TV today, you're streaming.

1:30:14These are the subjects. Has anything really changed? No. No, not overall. Only yourself, only you. You have to be the architect of your life. You have to build it. You have to create it. And you have to live in it.

1:30:29Jay Shetty:Today's Final Five was brought to you by State Farm. Having people in your corner for life's biggest milestones makes all the difference. With a State Farm agent, someone is there to help you along the way. You can talk to one of their 19 ,000 local agents in person, over the phone, through their easily accessible app, or at statefarm.com. Whatever works for you. like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Sly, thank you so much for writing the steps, for walking the steps, for giving us this pathway. I hope that this interview continues to inspire people for many, many, many years and many decades.

1:31:05The fact that I sat down with you, my credit's gone up a thousand percent with my daughters, my God.

1:31:11Jay Shetty:They're the best. We literally connected like years ago online, and I'm so glad I get to meet them. Thank you so much, my friend. You're the best. FX's American Horror Story returns for an unrivaled 13th installment. With the iconic horrors you love to fear and an all-star cast reprising fan-favorite roles. Light your candles, draw your pentagrams, and prepare for a supreme surprise. FX's American Horror Story 13. Now streaming on Hulu. This episode is brought to you by Netflix's new series, East of Eden. A bold reimagining of John Steinbeck's masterpiece following generations of the Trask family through love, betrayal, and the choices that shape humanity.

1:32:00Jay Shetty:Starring Mike Feist and Christopher Abbott as the Trask brothers and Florence Pugh as Kathy Ames. The complex anti-heroine determined to build the life she wants, no matter the cost. Watch East of Eden, October 1st, only on Netflix. Mr. President, my company tore me of the explosion on our rig. On October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant. What would happen if I stopped doing it? You starve, you freeze to death, that's what.

1:32:38Jay Shetty:With great power comes great deniability. I'm not the first daddy. Digger. See the trailer online. Only in the years October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not a middle without parent. Thank you. Thank you. So grateful and honored, truly. You're the best. Thank you. Keep punching. Yeah.