Why Your Unresolved Trauma is Keeping You Stuck & How to Rewire Your Brain to Move Forward with Laverne Cox

27:36I've learned very, very, very quickly to get out. and so I've become very good at like identifying what safe space is I'm like so this is not girl you're just spinning out with something some historical stuff some childhood stuff some old stuff just came up for you and so when once I was able to do that and regulate then I was able to go out and say babe I went into a shame spiral it's not about you it is what it is and he just like held me and I cried and

28:14and what's interesting to me what I've learned on I'm sure this is an experience that you have interviewing so many brilliant people I've had so many brilliant people in my podcast and so I think about that moment through a shame lens right there's a we can talk about a shame spiral we can talk about it through a trauma resilience piece around regulating my nervous system there's also or an attachment piece, attachment theory piece, where there's healthy attachment with him. So there's all these different lenses that I was able to kind of filter that moment through that kind of brought me back to the present and brought me into a resilient space where I wasn't spinning out.

28:58And it was deep. And so reckoning with the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves, it just a thought can spin us out right just a thought can disrupt my nervous system that's not it's a thought maybe it's a comment I've seen on the internet it's a thought I could have about myself that's like oh you're a piece of shit oh you're a horrible person that could just spin me out and just like becoming aware of those thoughts and then you know is this thought useful I can let this go this isn't the truth can I reality check this thought or maybe just letting go of all thoughts you know there's there's um in some of my meditation i do transcendental meditation too sometimes it's about trying trying imperfectly to let go of all thoughts and just be just be letting go of stories letting go of thoughts in absence of um data we create stories as human beings we're hardwired for story but trying to let go of story trying to let go of thoughts and just be it's so hard and but I have those moments when it's just like you know and I'm like am I an airhead you know am I being an airhead right now and just like letting go thoughts and just like ah you know sometimes I think like people yeah I don't want like I don't want to be judgmental but sometimes people who are not like intense thinkers they just kind of like chill sometimes I like envy those people because they're not like thinking about like the socio-political implications and then the sort of therapeutic and somatic implications and then the attachment theory implications and then the intersectional feminists and like there's all this stuff going on all the time and then i'm an artist and then like you know my humanity is and as an artist and like having empathy for the character and analyzing human behavior just there's a lot going on in there and so sometimes it's just i envy people who just there's not a lot going on up there and they can just kind of, you know, let go of the thoughts.

30:53Stressing about being healthy is very stressful. Especially as a 51 year old, because it's not just mental and psychological health now. It's like I'm getting older and there's the question of mobility and I have such a problem consistently working out, but I want to stay mobile and I want to stay looking lovely, you know, and the aging piece being 51 years old and like my mom is 70. just turned 73 this year and then watching her and thinking about getting older and my job you know and I feel like my in so many ways my career is just getting started and we're on strike and this just it's scary aging as a woman in Hollywood and I think what's beautiful about being trans is that like you know I the public has been very as transphobic as people are the transphobia of some people in the public has helped keep me right-sized around my appearance.

31:50Because sometimes I'm like, oh, Laverne, you look cute. Laverne, you're sexy. You know, oh, you look pretty good for 51. And then like, you know, I'll read a comment of like some, she looks like a man, you know? And luckily I can laugh about that. Luckily, I think it's, you know, I think it's ridiculous. And I understand people are transphobic, but it keeps things in perspective. But I also would be delusional and not in the truth if I didn't acknowledge that I'm not just I've not just been on multiple magazine covers because I'm smart and talented. That there is a desirability politic that goes into being an actress on screen in Hollywood and doing a lot of the on-camera work that I do.

32:37And aging in that environment is scary as a woman in an ageist business, in an ageist culture, and the connection between misogyny and aging and then being a black woman and a trans woman. And so all of that is like happening to. It's so funny. I was thinking about this. I haven't done like the Botox or the fillers or anything to my face, but obviously as a trans woman, I'm not opposed to surgery, but I'm terrified to do anything to my face. And there may be a point when I need to or need to. And I don't. And it's funny. I'm like comfortable talking about not having done it now. But I'm like, once I do it, I probably won't want to talk about it.

33:18so there's also that in the sort of transparency of that and i i don't talk about as a trans woman i don't talk about surgery in terms in relationship to me because so often that's a way to dehumanize trans people and reduce us to our bodies um but it's just something you know that i'm grappling with around aging and being a woman and so those are other stories and other you know thoughts that I spend way too much time thinking about maybe because I'm on strike we're on strike and I have a little more time I don't know I was gonna say that I actually find it remarkably comforting to hear someone open up and tell me the genuine real honest thoughts that they're having because I think all of us are actually having those in our own world, in our own universe, whether you're an actress in Hollywood or whether you're someone who's dropping your kids to school or whether you're me or whoever you are.

34:18Like, I think all of us have a kind of interesting tapestry. You've lived so many chapters of your life. If this chapter had a title right now, what would it be called? Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead, save up to 50 % and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter, park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we're taking a closer look at a condition that affects hundreds of thousands of men each year, prostate cancer. I first found out about my cancer at the age of 45.

34:59Anything with cancer, you just think death sentence. In this episode, we'll explore the science behind detection along with the practical steps men can take to protect their health. Listen to Health Discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app, search Health Discovered, and start listening. Hey, it's Rich Davis from Covino and Rich. Toyota is moving toward a more sustainable future by giving you the freedom to choose from a full lineup of hybrids, plug-in hybrids, regular gas, and 100 % electric vehicles. Including stylish cars like the Camry and Corolla, as well as efficient and spacious SUVs like the RAV4 and Grand Highlander.

35:41All backed by Toyota's reputation for reliability. No pressure, just possibilities. Visit BuyAToyota.com for a great deal on an efficient Toyota today. Toyota, let's go places. 51 fabulous and anxious as hell. That sounds like a great chapter. It's a fun chapter to read. It's fun to live too, I guess. It is what it is. You know, I interviewed Glennon Doyle. She's so amazing. And what I love about her, what I love about Brene Brown, is that like we so much in the wellness space, we hear about sort of how people are the sort of the result of the struggle and not the struggle. And I agree. I need to sort of be with people in the struggle.

36:33I need to like understand what folks are because that's what I can connect with. People who have it all together, I don't relate to that. And as much as people may think I have it all together And I, girl, I am, and I go our list into neutral. And in this case, girl, like compared to 10 years ago, to 15 years ago, Laverne has grown. I've done so much work on myself that just being able to be in an intimate relationship and tolerate it and like tolerate the vulnerability and the uncomfortable things. Like there's been so much growth. So yeah, I'm so much more evolved than I was 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

37:17certainly 20 years ago, but it doesn't mean that I'm not still struggling with things that like the world. I mean, honestly, just being, just being a trans person in 2023 is, I mean, I could, I could cry and I love being trans, but there's an attack on my community legislatively and rhetorically that is having real world consequences on, on, on people who I know and love their families fleeing states right now, which is insane to me because of the laws that criminalize parents who, you know, support their trans kids, criminalize doctors and health care professionals. And that's not unrelated to the, you know, people who need to flee states because of abortion restrictions.

38:01And being a public figure who, too, who's trans, who's, you know, you know, I was in the cover of Time magazine nine years ago with the headline, the transgender tipping point. And there was a sense that there was so much progress being made around trans visibility and trans acceptance. And that certainly, speaking of both, and that certainly is happening and has happened in a lot of ways. But we inevitably, when there is a social justice movement where people sort of come forth and there's more acceptance, there's inevitably backlash. And we are like, eyebrows deep in the backlash right now on a legislative level.

38:4420 states right now have banned gender-affirming care for young people. This year alone, over 500 pieces of legislation have been introduced in state legislatures all over the country targeting the LGBTQ community at large, mostly trans people, mostly drag artists. It's insane. And it's supported by a media that is so sort of siloed, you know, right, where people can just like get this confirmation bias that deeply stigmatizes trans people and LGBTQ plus people in general. And don't hear from real trans people and don't get our human stories and our beautiful humanity. And it's scary. A dear friend of mine, Chase Strangio, who works for the ACLU, they're fighting all these things in the courts right now.

39:33On Friday, he was arguing two different appeals for two different states where they banned gender-feming care in Tennessee and I think Oklahoma. It's just a scary time when the government, when the state is targeting your ability. And for years, they were sort of saying that this is about children. It's about protecting children. And earlier this year, a state, I think it was Oklahoma, passed a law that would prevent gender-feming care up to the age of 26. My home state of Alabama, I'm from Mobile, Alabama, bans gender-affirming care up to the age of 19. You know, there's other states that, you know, so it's not, it's never really been about the children, right?

40:05It's always been about doing what the Daily Wire's Michael Knowles proclaimed at CPAC, erasing transgenderism from public life. That has always been the project. and to hear that stated so emphatically and then seeing it play out on a state on various states is scary it's really scary and so there's that piece of like how do we as as trans folks just like our mental health how do we sort of deal with that and so what it's been crucial for me as a public figure but also just as a person who loves trans people and a person who's been just terrified by all of this. It's like how do, like understanding that the narrative about who we are has been hijacked and there's a deep propagandistic misinformation campaign that's going on around our identities that is leading to legislation that seeks to erase us from public life.

41:05But there is a reality of our lives. There is a reality of our existence. There is a reality of our beauty and our talent and our anointedness that I'm amazed by. I'm so blessed to have a group of trans people in my life who I marvel at. I was in L.A. in July, and we were doing something with Hardness Foundation about the relationship between reproductive rights and gender-affirming care. It's interesting but not ironic that as access to gender-affirming care, bodily autonomy for trans people is being taken away, bodily autonomy for people who can get pregnant is also being taken away on state levels all over this country.

41:48And then a dear friend of mine, Peppermint, we were hanging out afterwards and we were talking and she was telling me about this situation. She was dealing with a man and I was just, she was telling me about this and I was looking, I had watched her at this event that we were at and I was just marveling at how smart, how charismatic, how resilient, how incredible she is as a human being and all of the bullshit she was dealing with from this man. And I was just like, I was like, do you know how beautiful you are? Do you know how amazing and talented and just what a light you are just because of who you are?

42:26And that you're, I just am so honored that you're my friend and you happen to be trans And your transness is part of why you're such a light, you know? And I just have trans people in my life who are lights like that, who are just epic and beautiful and amazing. And then there's this, like, these narratives about who we are. And I just would love for people to get to know us and get to see what I see when I see trans people. And so that's what I have to hold on to, our humanity, our beautiful humanity, and shout it from the rooftops, and then surround myself, continually surround myself with the beautiful trans people in my life who are anointed.

43:11You know, I always like to remind people that in indigenous cultures all over the world, trans people were considered spiritual creatures, spiritual leaders in India. The Hijra, you know, pre-colonialism, where, you know, folks wouldn't get married or have a christening without the presence of a Hijra. And they understood that if they got a blessing, their child got a blessing from the Hijra, that their child would be okay and be better. We have two spirit people here in the Native communities here in the United States, the Mahu in Hawaii and in the Philippines. They're all indigenous cultures all over the world.

43:51They were third and fourth gender tradition. So trans people aren't new. Non-binary people aren't new. We've always existed in pre-colonial communities. And so wellness for me and mental health cannot be divorced from structures of domination like white supremacy and cis-normativity and patriarchy. And, you know, colonialism is synonymous with a gender binary that necessarily erases the natural occurrence of people who exist outside that binary. And so when we have conversations about health and well-being, we have to understand that I personally know from my own experience that as a black trans woman from working class background raised in Mobile, Alabama, that I internalize deeply transphobic things about myself that I had to unlearn deeply racist things about myself and my community that I had to unlearn.

44:50So part of my mental health journey has been unlearning transphobia, my internalized transphobia, unlearning my internalized white supremacy and anti-blackness so I can love myself more, so I can love the people around me more. and understanding that we're all raised in a culture that teaches that for me creates so much empathy for people who might be struggling with that who might not understand the extent to which they've internalized transphobia or white supremacy and so I can give them a lot of grace because I've been there too I've I've been transphobic I still have transphobic ideas and thoughts that I have to unlearn and check myself with.

45:31And that is part of my mental health. I've said on my podcast, and I say in life that there, you know, it's like 50 % of things, 50%, I don't know if it's 50 % are the structures, are the things that we internalize around white supremacy. Bell Hooks says imperialist, white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy. I add to that cis-normative, heteronormative, imperialist, white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy, the structures that we sort of exist under, these intersecting structures of domination is the way Bell Hooks would put it. But then there's the 50 % of like, what's my part in it? What is the 50 % I'm responsible for my life, right?

46:06And so I'm more responsible, I'm able to take more responsibility when I'm educated, when I have an education for critical consciousness. So in this world that is anti-intellectual, that is where we're defunding schools, that education becomes so critically important so that we can, like, take full responsibility for ourselves and our lives. And that education is around mental health. That education is around health in general. It's around these structures. It's around understanding capitalism, right? There's so many people who are frustrated, you know. my boyfriend who's considerably younger than me, he makes a wonderful living, can't buy a house right now because real estate prices are just so insane.

46:46And that's not because he's not working hard. He's working 60, 80 hours a week and he makes a lovely living. But the system is set up in a way, this capitalist system, where home prices are just like, it's out of reach for so many people. So like, and that can cause us mental and emotional stress. But if we understand that there is a system in place that is keeping a generation of people from being able to buy their homes, that can help give us some perspective and hopefully not feel like we're not enough. Because I think a lot of I see this happening to him where it's like, I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do.

47:24And I think we and he and he happens to be a straight white man. And so there's all these conversations now about crisis around men. And there's a you know, I don't know if you would agree with that. But I think so much of that crisis, especially when I see, you know, dating a very attractive, you know, dirty blonde, blue eyed, straight white man that this, you know, that the world has told him this is what, you know, should be available to you as a straight white man who's attractive and who works hard. And then these things are not available because of a system in place that really is designed to keep a lot of people down, whether you're black, white, whatever.

48:06And so I think so much of the cognitive dissonance now, and we've displaced that. We say that feminism is the reason, right? I see if you go into the manosphere on the Internet, you'll hear a lot of men saying, oh, feminism is the reason why or, you know, diversity and inclusion programs are the reason why. When maybe, you know, predatory capitalism and corporations who have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders and no one else. Maybe that's why you, the promise of what you're supposed to have in this country as a straight white man, maybe it's not the fault of immigrants or feminism or diversity and inclusion programs.

48:49Maybe it's this capitalist system that has lied to you and told you. And so I think having that critical awareness for me is a part of mental health. For me, having a critical relationship to the world around me on a systemic level is part of me having a perspective, placing things in perspective. And so that like I'm not, it reduces the beating myself up. It reduces the like I should be working harder. I should be doing more. I'm not enough. And, you know, it doesn't absolve me of responsibility for my life, because I think there's a mentality of saying, oh, racism is this, I'm never going to get to where I need to go.

49:36We can do that, or we can say racism is this, sexism is this, misogyny, war, trans, all of these things are true, but I'm here. But I'm here, and I have an opportunity. In this corrupt system, how can I navigate? How can I negotiate within this system to let my light shine, to be on purpose? Why am I here? Why has God put me here on this planet? And how can I, in the face of all these things, rise up and be there for myself as much as I can so that I am not a victim of any of this? I refuse to be a victim. that I can say to myself, in the face of all of this, I'm going to proceed in the world with dignity, with self-respect, with love for myself, with love for other people, and a deep, deep passion for what I do, and a passion for getting better, and it's going to be okay.

50:37Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead, save up to 50%, and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter. Park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered, we're taking a closer look at a condition that affects hundreds of thousands of men each year, prostate cancer. I first found out about my cancer on my birthday at the age of 45. Found out my cancer has spread to my pelvic bone And from there, life just changed. About one in eight men will be diagnosed with prostate cancer during their lifetime, and the risk increases with age.

51:24Anything with cancer, you just think death sentence. And the only thing I could think about was, who's going to take care of my family? You have to go out there and build your support system. You got to build your team. In this episode, we'll explore the science behind detection, along with the practical steps men can take to protect their health. Listen to Health Discovered on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app, search Health Discovered, and start listening.

51:57This is Rob Parker from The Odd Couple with Rob Parker and Kelvin Washington. The Toyota Tundra and Tacoma are designed to outlast and outlive. backed by Toyota's legendary reputation for reliability. So get in the tundra with the available iForce Max Hybrid Engine, delivering exceptional torque and towing capacity. Or check out a Tacoma with available off-road features like crawl control. It can take you beyond the trails. Toyota trucks are built to last year after year, mile after mile. So don't wait. Get yours today. Visit buyatoyota.com for deals and more. Toyota, let's go places. Well, I'm genuinely in awe of how someone can internalize what's going on around them and at the same time remain independently thoughtful about what that means.

53:03It's work. It's work to stay separate, to detach from that, to not become hopeless around it. There have been moments this year when I have felt deeply hopeless and deeply sort of unempowered in like, how are we going to sort of fight this? And when I think it was when the gender affirming, I think it was Oklahoma that when they banned gender affirming care up until the age of 26, I was like, OK, we have to change this narrative. And it just something clicked for me. And sometimes we I have to go away and think and I have to strategize. And it's not I can't always just be on TV or be on a on a, you know, picket line or at a protest.

53:43Sometimes I have to go and think and strategize. It's like we have to change this narrative. And I cannot have the conversation about who I am on these terms that have nothing to do with me. All of the terms that they have set forth that have deeply dehumanized trans people, when senators are asking Supreme Court candidates about what is a woman and they're talking about mutilating children, all that is deeply dehumanizing of trans people. What those people who do not want trans people to exist in public life have done very successfully propagandistically that have led to legislation that take away the bodily autonomy and the rights of trans people is that they've dehumanized us.

54:26to such an extent where people can't have conversations about LGBTQ, some people can't have conversations about LGBTQ plus people without equating us with things I don't even like to repeat. I don't want to repeat any of those narratives, but I think you know some of the disparaging, dehumanizing, very retrograde narratives that we can trace back to the 1970s, right? What about the children and all those sorts of things? So understanding deeply that I will not have my identity be up for debate. That my access to gender affirming care is actually no one's business. It is between me and my doctor.

55:08And that the access, even for children, is actually not up for debate if you're not a healthcare professional. It blows me away. All of the journalists and all of the people who feel like it is fine. Oh, children getting gender affirming care and having access to different that is up for debate right we can debate that because children when the american academy for pediatrics when the endocrine society when they um you know all these different you know very reputable organizations say that this is the way that we should treat transgender children and this these are the protocols with parental consent etc etc and all these other people say well we have to debate this my no no it's actually if you're not a trans child, the parent of a trans child or a healthcare professional, it's actually none of your business.

55:58And I feel the same way about reproductive rights. I feel the same way if you're not a person who can get pregnant in need of an abortion, it's actually none of your business. And I think that for me needs to be the conversation. It's deeply empowering for me to say that to myself and to say it publicly, that it is actually, and it's dehumanizing. It is deeply dehumanizing for people to sit on television and on podcasts debating my access and children's access to a care. I mean, if a child had cancer, we wouldn't be having debates about what, whether this, I mean, there's all sorts of side effects to chemotherapy.

56:43But we would defer to the experts on that. Nicole Maines is a brilliant, beautiful trans woman who is an actress. She played Dreamer on Supergirl. She's just so incredible. And she transitioned as a child. I recently interviewed her on my podcast. And it was so lovely to hear from a child. She's in her early 20s now, but she transitioned as a child. And so many of these conversations, again, that people are having about trans kids, and they're not talking to any of the kids. And then the kids are saying there was a recent story the New York Times ran where all of this whistleblower, you know, said that this clinic was doing all these things.

57:25And then the parents, these parents came out and said, well, no, the clinic wasn't doing this and that my child was treated well. And the children are saying all these things and the children are saying that we were treated well. And the parents are saying that we were treated well. And then they're just going with this other whole other narrative. So people aren't even listening to trans people. They're not listening to the parents of trans people. So they've just hijacked the narrative and they're not listening to us. And underneath all that is them not wanting us to exist. And if we think about it, then if you go back to the beautiful podcast you had with Oprah, what happened to you?

57:58if you don't if you're so deeply invested in stigmatizing trans people and saying that trans people are mentally ill how if you don't know somebody trans if you don't have a train how does it even affect you how in the world does it affect your life what happened to you and so that's the empathetic piece that i have that this that people are in these times that we live in people are in so much pain. And I think that's why we have so many wellness podcasts and things, and people are so, people are in so much pain for so many reasons. And so many of those things are systemic. So many of those things are about unhealed childhood trauma, not having language, words, skills, neighborhoods that have just been completely divested from poverty, income inequality, so many structural things, so many, you know, interpersonal things, so many, so much unhealed childhood trauma.

58:53It is an inside job when it comes to my healing, but it is also a structural job. It is also that we can't just charity our way out of it, do philanthropy our way out of it. We have to, our governments have to invest in schools and communities and mental health in a serious way. And I don't necessarily have faith in our governments. So then what do we than do for ourselves and for each other. And whenever I have a problem, you know, I'm less there these days, but when I used to have problems with other people, it's usually about an insecurity that I had with myself. And so I had to take a moment with myself and to self-reflect.

59:41Media literacy becomes so crucially important in this moment. You know, sometimes I get into arguments with my boyfriend specifically about something. And I'm like, well, let's check that source. And then like, let's cross-reference this source with this source and which one is more reputable. So I'm constantly checking different information and seeing the source and looking for the biases, right? So because that's really where we have to be in this moment. And I think it's around wellness too, because there's a lot of people who are gripping around wellness, right? and they're trying to sell some product or sell something.

1:00:19And we have to just always have critical awareness around the things that we receive, the information we're getting on the internet, the information we're getting from cable news, from the news in general. Just a critical awareness around information is crucial. And critical thinking skills are so important and teaching people how to triple check sources and get information, you know, get in, try to get find reputable sources and thinking about like how a study can be manipulated. Right. Just having those that critical awareness is just crucially important in this in this day and age, because I think we can spin ourselves out in a psychologically emotional way when we think about the people, you know, I think about those folks who said that they were radicalized around January 6th, right, through social media propaganda and then found themselves, you know, on trial for their lives and admitting that they were sort of propagandized and, you know, didn't, and their incredible consequences.

1:01:21And I think they were probably struggling in their lives. You know, when you hear about, you know, young men being radicalized into white supremacist groups, so much of that is about a loneliness, about trying to find a sense of community, right? And so there's always something going on psychologically and emotionally with people. And if we can have that frame for people, giving people grace. I mean, I think there's, you know, I think our actions must have consequences, right? So I'm not like forgiving people for terrorist activities or anything like that. But I think we can, you know, I'm responsible for my actions and we all are.

1:02:00So, you know, if you do unfortunate things because you've been radicalized, then you have to sort of deal with the consequences of that. But then for those people who've come out on the other side of that, I think their stories are very valuable around talking about how they were radicalized and maybe were de-radicalized and began to understand what pain they were in and what they were struggling with. And everyone is struggling with something. And it's like, if we can, if they can, hopefully we can meet people with love and empathy in their struggles, the people in our lives who might be going down a road, some sort of very radical road.

1:02:35And a lot of people are right now. If we can hold them close, We may not be able to, we may have to let them go. Certain people we have to let go of because it's not healthy for us. But if we can keep these people in our lives with love and empathy and maybe just love them through these moments, maybe they won't end up in situations that become, you know, where they're going to prison for, you know, behavior they've been engaged in. On that point, I want to ask this question because every time I feel what happens with any difficult, uncomfortable conversation is that, again, you pointed this out earlier, it's happening in silos.

1:03:11So you have a group of people over here talking about it, but they're talking about it with each other. Then you have a group of people here talking about it with each other. If you could sit down, not a debate, not an argument, but a genuine discussion, conversation of learning from both sides with someone in the world, who is that person? that you think you'd want to sit with to have that educated, thoughtful, conscious conversation around the subject matters that you care about. I mean, that's why we reached out to Joe Rogan, because, you know, he has had so many. But he's kind of in the middle there, right?

1:03:43He's kind of trying to talk to both. He's interesting. He's interesting because, you know, some people would say he represents a lot of normie, you know, sort of opinions on things. And then, like, there's some things that have gotten more sort of radically conservative on his podcast. But he's someone I was interested when I was interested in going on his show. It was just like I would just love to chat with him. I'm not just to be a go and be a human being. I'm just go and be Laverne, you know, just go and like not necessarily if we want to talk about some of these issues. I mean, I'm certainly not an expert in sports.

1:04:12That's a big issue with him. Trans people in sports. I'm not I don't play sports. I've never, you know, not athletic. I know a little bit about the studies that have been done, the very few studies that have been done on actual trans people in sports. But he's someone who comes to mind because I think it's really just about how can we be human? Can we be human together? And I think that's the first piece, that like so much of what has happened has been deeply dehumanizing, where they've sort of made trans people into an ideology. I mean, people sort of like transgender ideology. I'm like, what exactly is that?

1:04:49And what are some of the concerns? you were talking about empathy what are some of the concerns on the other side so to speak that you empathize with or that you parts of the narrative where you're like oh i understand where that's coming from but that isn't actually what i believe our thoughts are like what would you say is like oh i get where that's coming from but that's actually a missed narrative because i think what ends up happening and i'm looking at it from a trying to look at it from an observer point of view and going is it that people are actually arguing two completely different things and we're arguing about the wrong thing like we're not even talking about i think the part of i mean i think honestly part of the problem is that a lot of the ways in which for many years since oh gosh since the early since the early 2000s there have been states have been attempting to do bathroom bans um i think phoenix um was one of the first cities and we were able to sort of not have that you know protests happened and they were not bathroom bans against trans people using the bathroom.

1:05:47Famously in 2016, HB2 in North Carolina was the big bathroom bill, but there have been other states who have been trying to ban access to bathrooms for trans people. So for years, conservatives were working to get trans people out of bathrooms. That actually didn't really work anywhere. And so after marriage equality became the law of the land, conservative groups had focus groups, And they were like, they talked to them specifically about different trans issues. And what seemed most salient to them were trans women specifically in sports. And so then that became the focus. And they were like, okay, we can take the playbook.

1:06:25They need a buy a playbook from the 70s and then focus on children, trans people in sports and children. And so then there was a proliferation of new stories on Fox News and conservative, in conservative media, all over the internet. Google it. It's just hundreds of stories on Fox News about trans people in sports. None in like, you know, more mainstream media. Like we didn't like if you're not watching Fox News or conservative media, you didn't realize you wouldn't realize that there was an issue with trans people in sports. But if you watch Fox News, you would think that like trans people are dominating sports, like that trans women are like, you know, so that I mean, this is really for most people, trans women in sports becomes the crazy thing that like we can't do.

1:07:06For Joe Rogan, it's the issue. And there's not enough real studies on actual trans women in sports. You would need to do double blind studies of trans women's performance capacity in different sports. There's one study that was done with trans women specifically with running, but it was a small sample size that looked at their performance pre-transition and post-transition. But then there haven't been any studies on like weightlifting, on swimming, on all that. And there are different skill sets that are required. People make assumptions because people don't think that trans women are women. So they make assumptions that if you've gone through a puberty that releases testosterone, that you're going to have a physical advantage.

1:07:45In 2002, the International Olympic Committee created standards for trans people to compete in 2002. It had to do with testosterone levels being on hormone replacement therapy for a certain amount of time. And since 2002, so that's 21 years, we've had one trans Olympian. and she like, she was a weightlifter a few years ago and she like failed to qualify. Like she made it to the Olympics, but then she was out in the first round. So in the 21 years that trans people have been able to compete in the Olympics, for example, trans women are not dominating. There are a few trans women who win competitions and we hear all about those trans women, right?

1:08:23And like conservatives know those trans women probably better than I would know those trans women. They're like on the handful of trans women. And then you look at sports bans on trans children. I was a governor, I forget, I think it was West Virginia, who was on television, it was at MSNBC, and Stephanie Rule was like, you know, are there any trans girls dominating in your state that you know of? And he said no. And he did know of any, and there weren't any. And there was one trans girl who was playing sports that we knew of in, I think it was Utah, and they created a sports ban for one person, for one trans girl.

1:09:00And so, so much of this is this anxiety. But what's interesting to me is at the same time that there are these sports bans that we're going to ban trans girls from sports to keep fairness in sports, that they're also banning gender affirming care and stigmatizing and creating misinformation around puberty blockers. And what I do know about sports and alleged advantages that people might have or trans people might have is that that advantage happens after puberty, right? That pre-puberty that there's not really because testosterone hasn't been introduced yet, that there's no advantage. And so the same people who say that they don't want trans girls competing also want to take away the ability for trans girls to be able to go through the puberty that is consistent with their identity and that would actually not give them an advantage.

1:09:52And so many of the kids, the trans kids who play sports are not dominating. They just want to play with their friends. They just want to have this communal experience from what I've, from the trans people I talk to, that there's something, I never play sports. But allegedly, apparently, people who play sports, there's a sense of teamwork and community. And the young girl in Utah, there was a field hockey team. The team didn't even exist. She basically rallied the girls to get the field hockey team together. And then after she had done all this work to get the team, she couldn't play on it. And that just feels, it's really discriminatory.

1:10:29And I think that like there is, I think fairness in sports is something that we should, there are standards in place for that. But I don't think it's really about that at the end of the day. And so I think that like even having this long sort of drawn out conversation about sports, it's actually not about that. It's actually not, I don't think it's about fairness in sports. I think it is about stigmatizing trans people. It's about people being deeply uncomfortable. That's almost always where it goes. That they're talking, they say it's about sports, they say it's about the children, but it's really about a discomfort with trans people existing.

1:11:07That's at the core of it. If we look at empirically at what they're saying and then the public policies that are put in place. So people make sports an issue. They make gender-affirming care an issue for children, But it's ultimately about them wanting to erase trans people from public life because we make them uncomfortable for some reason. Parking shouldn't slow you down. ParkWiz gives every driver a shortcut. Book ahead. Save up to 50 percent and skip the hassle of circling the block. Park smarter. Park faster. ParkWiz. Download the ParkWiz app today and save every time you park. This week on a very special episode of Health Discovered.

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1:12:50possibilities visit buyatoyota.com for a great deal on an efficient toyota today toyota let's go places do you do are you feel me on that do you feel me because i think we can parse out all these different issues that they say they have a problem with but at the end of the day when we're talking about banning gender forming care for adults in florida effectively gender forming care for adults is banned with they've medicaid is no longer covering gender forming care in florida for trans people. And DeSantis passed a bill that would allow only doctors, not nurse practitioners, to administer gender affirming care when 80 percent of trans people in Florida get their gender affirming care from nurse practitioners.

1:13:33So this is very similar to what they're doing with abortion bills. Right. So that's why it gets tricky to go into having conversations about sports and like parsing out and getting distracted about that. That is actually having the conversation on their terms. Having the debate around trans children and gender affirming care is having the debate on their terms. It is actually not your business when it comes. And fairness in sports, and I think too, because we see a coalition now of women who call themselves feminists, who care about women's rights, a coalition between them and right-wing conservatives who want to take away the abortion rights of women and people who can get pregnant.

1:14:16So they have like coalesced and are like, you know, in common cause around getting trans people out of women's spaces and protecting women's spaces and protecting women's sports. And so this is just about transphobia. It's about transphobia. And so why is it? And I think there's a larger conversation around gender roles. What, you know, that whole sort of Matt Walsh question, what is a woman, And I think, ultimately, what is a man? In this moment, in this historical moment right now, women are so beautifully independent. We make our own money. We, in so many ways, we don't need men. And we, a lot of women have evolved.

1:15:00And a lot of men have evolved, but a lot of men haven't. And the structure of patriarchy has not evolved. and their backlash against women having autonomy and these roles being challenged. Trans people are a part of that. The existence of trans people and defining gender on your own terms and defining what it means to be a woman on your own terms. Being a woman used to be an antebellum United States of America. Black women weren't women. Black women weren't even human, right? Right. Womanhood in the United States is a colonial white supremacist construct. It is a patriarchal construct. And that is being dismantled as women are taking control of our lives and our our abilities to have children or not.

1:15:54And just all a lot of that patriarchy is just being dismantled by the lived experiences of women. And so many men don't know how they fit into that because they haven't done the work of interrogating patriarchy and interrogating that model. And you've talked so beautifully on your podcast about being vulnerable as a man and what that looks like. And vulnerability is a piece of it. And that is my own, for men, dealing with the ways in which they've internalized patriarchy and these systems that are not serving them. Patriarchy isn't serving most men, especially if you're a man of color, especially if you're a working class man.

1:16:35Right. Patriarchy is not actually really serving you. And I think the frustration of a lot of working class men of all races is that patriarchy isn't serving them. And it's supposed to be. And it's confusing. Right. And then women are so empowered now and don't necessarily need men. But I still want a man. And then trans people are in the middle of all this. Right. And so then it's like we become a scapegoat. We can become a scapegoat for like all of the anxieties that people have, that some women have who are not transgender, that some men have. We become a scapegoat for all of this anxiety about gender roles changing.

1:17:14And these trans people aren't helping. And then like we're usurping women. All these narratives that actually have nothing to do with trans people. It has to do with a certain level of progress, a certain level of like these systems not working for people anymore and the uncertainty and the uncomfortability of all of that. So much of this is about being able to sit with discomfort and uncertainty and not being able to make any sense of it. And what makes sense to so many people is when someone is having a baby, is it a boy or a girl? If I can't even hold on to it's a boy or a girl and that binary, if I can't hold on to that, what can I hold on to?

1:18:02And so people desperately need to hold on to some sense of certainty. And trans people and our existence does not allow that. And there is a cognitive dissonance and there is an anger because there's so little that we can hold on to that we can be certain about in these times. Can I hold on to something? And the existence of trans people is another thing that we can't hold on to. But trans people have always existed. It's a lie. Intersex people exist biologically. All these people who want to talk about biology, biological sex, and that term is a very tricky term, but let's use it for now for expedience, is not binary.

1:18:42Intersex people exist. There are more intersex people than redheads. Right. So that like even biologically, gender doesn't exist on a binary. It's just on a spectrum. So it's so then it's like. How do we sit with discomfort and uncertainty and like sit in that and let go again, going back to letting go of the story, like the stories that I can tell myself about not being enough? Those stories are so often tied to I'm a woman. I'm supposed to be this way. for people who identify as men. They're a man and you're supposed to be this way. I'm white and it's supposed to be this way. I'm from this place.

1:19:24Letting go of those stories. And it's sometimes deeply uncomfortable to let go of the story that I've always been attached to, deeply attached to. It's painful. It's painful. And so what conservatives who don't want trans people to exist have done successfully is play it on the fears of people not being able to sit with discomfort and uncertainty and have used that to attempt to legislate and adjudicate trans people out of existence. That is what's going on. So even having the narrative of talking to people from the other side is a false dichotomy because we're all in the same boat. Of course.

1:20:07I was doing it as a framework. I feel you. And I went there a little bit with you. But it's like, I think we're all in the same boat around this uncertainty, around all these questions. And if we can sit with that and hopefully sit across from someone like we're doing now and see their humanity. No, that's, I mean, sitting and listening to you and anyone else that I meet, I'm only seeing humanity. And that's how, at least I was trained in my tradition, was to only look at someone for their humanity and the essence that exists within. And my intention, Levan, honestly, with this is that I feel so educated and enlightened today.

1:20:45And I've learned so much from you. Thank you. And I genuinely, genuinely do hope, even though I was doing it as a thought exercise, I do hope that, and it may be one of these, you know, idealistic viewpoints, but I think it's needed. Like, I wish we could sit down with people that we think we have opposing views. There's been so many moments throughout my life where I, you know, waited tables, I worked in restaurants for 19 years in New York and encountered so many people from different backgrounds. I did not talk about being trans or trans politics. I was just myself. Yeah, of course. I was just myself with these people.

1:21:22And it's just been so beautiful, the empirical evidence of my life that I just get to be myself. And people are like, oh, yeah, she happens to be trans, but she's cool. She's awesome. And it's not I'm not the only one who's cool and awesome. like we all are like a lot of trans people are cool and awesome there's some people aren't cool and awesome there are people across every demographic who aren't cool and awesome but a lot of us are and even if we aren't cool and awesome we're still human you know and sitting across some people and just chilling you know it's like it's it's beautiful i think about all of the um sort of parents um of the different men i've dated over the years i i i'm 51 so i've met some parents in my life my day and i just remember um like 20 years ago i was dating this guy and then we met i met his parents and they knew i was trans going in like oh she's so lovely and then i was another guy's um mom who i met um this is early 2000s i met her she loved me she thought i was great for her son like three years into relationship i um he was on the phone with his mom he's like oh laverne is giving herself an estrogen shot and she's like oh my god what is she pregnant what's going on and she's freaking out like no she's and he just starts laughing she's like she's trans and we thought she knew but she didn't know and she had met me and loved me and then she freaked out and then she comes to visit she's from minneapolis she comes and visits and then we have dinner together and she's like laverne is lovely she's great i i'm so happy that she's in your life you know and she had whatever story she had around me being trans and then we had dinner together and hung out and was like, she's great.

1:22:58Yeah. And I just have so many of those experiences in my life. And so I, part of me is just like, let's just sit down and have dinner, girl. Let's just chill. It's all good. I love it. Laverne Cox, you have been a joy to be around today, honestly. And I love how smart, intelligent, intellectual, thoughtful you are about the words that you share, the way you present them. And you're a change maker. and I'm really honored to have sat down with you for this time to learn from you, to grow with you. And I really hope that we'll continue to have this conversation offline too. Me too. I really look forward to that.

1:23:33Do you feel on purpose, darling? Definitely. Definitely. That was... As do I. That you are very on purpose. I try. Thank you so much, Noah. Thank you. Thank you, honestly. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my conversation with Meghan Trainor on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out. My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for five minutes. It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C-section scar with all the stretch marks, now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked. But day three when I did it, I was like, you know what? Her thighs are cute.

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1:25:16This is Mario Lopez from One with Mario Lopez Daily Podcast. Toyota is moving toward a more sustainable future by giving you the freedom to choose from a full lineup of hybrids, plug-in hybrids, regular gas, and 100 % electric vehicles. Including stylish cars like the Camry and Corolla, as well as efficient and spacious SUVs like the RAV4 and Grand Highlander. All backed by Toyota's reputation for reliability. No pressure, just possibilities. Please visit buyatoyota.com for a great deal on an efficient Toyota today. Toyota, let's go places. This is an iHeart Podcast.