Zane Lowe ON: 3 Tools for Navigating Social Anxiety & 3 Ways to Change Your Relationship with Your Ego

29:30We went for a beer at a pub, which I think is called the famous cock. I mean, there's a lot of cocks in London that serve beer. Yes. Right? There's famous cocks and there's roosters and cocks. And there's like, you know, the Thames on Henley cock. And there's lots of cocks. Yeah. So we went to one of those cocks, I think on Regent Street. And it was me. And I hope she doesn't mind me telling you this, but I'm sure she wouldn't because it's a great footnote in our story. It was me and a good friend of ours who still is a good friend of ours called Hoose and Kat Deely, who I knew from MTV, who was just getting her break in MTV and doing some great stuff even as a young person on TV.

30:11And so we all went for a pint and that's how I reconnected with her. And then from there, our story started to unfold and we'd have to drink wine to tell you the rest of that. But, you know, it's just long and brilliant and, you know, unique, like everyone's story. But yeah, I mean, I've known hers. I mean, I always joke I had to move halfway around the world to marry someone I'd known most of my life from home. When you've known someone for that long, I always wonder how you allow that growth on both sides because I guess when you've known someone for that long, you've been three different people or at least more of who you are and she's becoming more of who she really is.

30:47Like how have you continued? Because you said you've been together for over two decades or something like that. Yeah, nearly 24 years we've been married. Yeah, 24 years to be married, you said. Exactly, which is a really long time. Congratulations. Like how, was that conscious and intentional or you've both just been flowing? To stay together that long? To stay together, but more importantly, it seems and it sounds from what I'm hearing that you've kind of grown together. Oh yeah. During that time and allowed the growth. I think you can stay together unless you grow together. Otherwise you grow apart.

31:17Well, you know, we got married quickly. You know, we were together and it was like, oh, this is meant to be. And then for one reason or another, our marriage was really dictated by other things. It was like a visa issues and she'll have to go home. And because, you know, we didn't have a, I could stay in London, she couldn't. And so, you know, it really came down to like, look, if there's a future for this, then this has to be the only way forward. And so we got married and it was in a registry office and with two witnesses, you know, and it was short of telling our parents, which we did about two weeks beforehand.

31:49I mean, it would have been, we would have eloped. I mean, it was so fast. And, you know, I think both of us felt like it was forever, but I think it's kind of too simplistic to say that we were dead. I think we were just trying to keep it going. I think we were just like, look, this is really great. We don't know what the future holds, but if you have to leave and I stay, it's going to make it that much harder for us to find out. And in a way, that works for the kind of people that we are. I mean, not to speak for her, I'm very conscious not to do that because she's her own person. but I think both of us just liked finding out and we're still finding out and I think that's what's cool about it is that we didn't go into it with some kind of major pressure with no disrespect, I've been to some incredible weddings and I think you should be entitled to celebrate your union however you want but for us, not feeling like there were 150 pairs of eyes on us, you know, like this is for life everybody.

32:41I mean, it just suited us to just get going, just get to work. Like we just woke up one day and we're like, let's just get to work And we have, and we've been working at it ever since, and it takes work. But as someone said to me once, you know, even the days when it seems like it's really hard work, the next day, like anything in life, the hard work pays off. Yeah, absolutely. So just so you know, we had 400 people at our wedding, and I'll tell you why. Because in an Indian household, your parents are obliged to invite every person that's ever invited them to their kid's wedding. So you could literally, you could start the ball rolling early and just invite everybody, whether you know them or not.

33:21Totally. And then just be like, I am set for the rest of my life. I have so many great experiences I'm going to have. Literally, and they only get better, right? That's amazing. So it's like literally my parents and my wife's parents have a list of people that have to be invited to the wedding because they've been to their kids' weddings. Love that. And so half the wedding list is - You're like, who are these people? I mean, we don't know. Like my wife still talks about it. We're like walking around at our reception. Take a loan. My wife's like, I have no idea who this person is. And that's small for an Indian wedding.

33:50Like I have friends who had like 500 to 1 ,000 people at their wedding. We were somewhat given some... In a way, it's not dissimilar because it's not like you're signing like some kind of emotional contract for these people. Yeah, no, no, it's not at all. It just comes down to the union, to the team. And it's like it either works or it doesn't. I don't hold my parents... I don't have any ill will to hold my parents or hold them responsible for the end of their marriage. it just ceased to exist. Yeah. And it happens all the time. I've got good friends going through it right now. Same, yeah. I just think for us, we try to keep things really simple.

34:24We make each other laugh like a lot. And if it's not the same thing, it's at each other. It's at each other. She gives that to me, like she really dishes out a lot, you know, like, you're a moron kind of stuff, you know, and I am. So it's an easy joke. and then I think beyond that we like each other's company and we know that we're not always going to agree but we know that it's not gonna it's it's not gonna get in between the simple principles that keep us together she's just smarter better way hotter you know she's just I definitely married up. It's beautiful. You talked about having social anxiety and being a DJ and talking about how we were joking about how it's easier to get away with that.

35:16But obviously in your career, there's been so many opportunities, as you said, with your children, you want them to be able to walk through the door and stay there. And that requires one to kind of negotiate through that social anxiety sometimes. I'm sure you've had to walk into the rooms and pitch yourself and hold your own. and negotiate and then stand your ground and whatever it may be, talk to lawyers. And, you know, there's so much to it when you're in. And I feel like there's so many people who are listening and watching where social anxiety is at a point where it cripples them. It stops them from walking into rooms, starting that conversation.

35:49What was, what were you saying to yourself? What were you working on in order to move through some of those uncomfortable experiences? I'm Radhi Dvlukia and I'm the host of a Really Good Cry podcast. And I have the opportunity to talk to Logan Uri. Logan is a dating expert, a behavioral scientist, a best-selling author, and someone who is seriously changing the way we think about love and dating. In our conversation, we talk all things dating, that Logan has studied and tested, from what to put in your dating profile, the pictures you should and shouldn't be using, to the conversation starters that actually work, and the huge no-nos that people probably do not realize are reducing their chances of success on apps.

36:26Whether you're single, dating, or just trying to be more intentional in love, Logan offers the kind of clarity we all need. relationships do require work. And the best relationships are people who really work on them together. They're so focused on if I find the perfect person, then I'll have the perfect relationship. Instead of understanding really that they can choose someone great and then build that relationship together. They don't need to keep searching for perfection. Listen to a really good cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. It's case by case. you know my friend was having a function the other night beautiful function a total a reason to celebrate and I I nearly was like I can't go there wasn't any valid reason for me to not go in my mind from a cerebral kind of oh that makes sense none of it made sense and then there are times and you know I'm skipping out the door it just depends I mean for me in terms of like breaking it up into two things because you make you made some good points like in terms of like the social side of it I try to be kind to myself I try to allow myself the space to make a decision that's as pressure free as possible and then more often than not i find good valid reasons to continue forward i feel that if i apply too much pressure on myself most of it's unreal and then i'll end up just not going anyway and then i'll feel bad because the unreal will evaporate and i realize that i made a decision that wasn't based in the real so i try to i try to i know myself enough to get ahead of that and just be like you don't have to do anything don't go and once i just tell myself that i'm like oh well there's a couple of good reasons to go you know and I start to bring myself forward on that in terms of the work side of it and getting in the room I don't know what to tell you I mean the few times when I've when I've I know that I've had to step up and do something that's ultimately helped change the shape of my journey and therefore my family's journey or whatever that's when you start getting into the intangible a bit for me into the sort of the magic of the moment and what makes performers athletes surgeons I mean I'm going lofty but anybody i mean some heroes people do out of body things it's nowhere near on the same level and i'm not trying to put like getting in a room and pitching your best shit at the same thing but it exists in the same space of like i don't quite know why what's motivating this extra gear but i'm using it and i think true greatness comes from people who know how to access it more consciously than I do at this point in my life um you know you're talking about you know the Michael Jordans of this world who can the Beyonce's of this world who are like I can you know they don't shy away from the occasion they level up they see it they know what it is they understand and I'm just talking about the arts now respectfully to everybody else like because if I start you know going in apologizing for every other outlet or occupation or thing in life that's more important than the arts to everyone else then I'm just going to end up in of like the fetal position in this podcast is going to be over.

39:21So I'm just focusing based on your background. I know how it goes. I know how it goes. There's more important things in life than music and the arts. I get it and I respect it. But for me, that's the world I'm in. So I'm just going to focus on that. So, um, in the performing arts, you know, I watch, I watch people all the time step up further than they have before. And I just think it's something in us that, um, is there and sometimes the occasion requires it. And sometimes you'd meet someone who has found a way to harness it and that is when you start dealing with like the greats like the people who just they see it they manifest it it happens but then they recognize that it's happening and then they recognize the feeling and then they remember that feeling and then they practice that feeling and then they get the ball in with 0.3 0.3 seconds to go every time that's like that's when you're dealing with just another level.

40:17I'm not there. But I've had a few moments in my life when that gear's kicked in, and I love it. I mean, you know, the job I'm in now. I mean, I nearly got on a plane and flew home because I just was like, I don't know where this is going, and I'm unhappy. I don't feel like I can do this. And I had a big meeting the next day, and I went the next day, and I had a great meeting, and it changed everything. So who knows, man? I mean, it just comes out of nowhere. But I'm more interested in the people who just somehow know how to, like, kick that shit into action. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they exist.

40:44Yeah, absolutely. they exist yeah there's a beautiful book called flow don't know if you've ever come across it i forget the author's name it's like me hi i think it's a name if i mess it up everyone please do not be mad at me i think it's cheek sent me high i think that's how it's said me high chick sent me high the book's called flow and that's what you're describing this flow state that people experience where you see freestylers rappers musicians you know athletes artists where time stops but it's really fast and no one knows what's happening like it almost feels like time slows down and speeds up at the same time i've had a couple of conversations in that state weirdly like on the record like like interview situations where it's like there's been such a nice mood in the room and i feel it is such a strong like to and fro going on in terms of the question the answer and then the question the answer and it's just been i'm like wow and then someone's like okay time it's been going for like two hours i'm like it was like that yeah yeah i mean you must have done that too.

41:43It's lovely. It's really cool when it happens like that too, because it's human experience with somebody else. So it feels really nice. I also, you know, my social anxiety, I think, I think it's, it's, it's unique for everybody. I mean, I have no problem walking in a room and being around people, but there's a difference between being present and fitting in or playing a role that you think is going to serve a purpose for that environment or that party or whatever. And just being able to be comfortable in yourself. That's what I'm talking about. Like, I'm not always and very often entirely comfortable.

42:17I just have figured out how to maintain. But there's always something in me that I feel that like my skin's a little bit too tight or my brain's not really focused on what someone's asking me. And I guess that's my form of social anxiety. Yeah. And I think I find that most people at events, especially in the entertainment and the arts, feel that way. I don't know many people who don't feel that way. That's good to hear. I mean, I definitely do. Yeah, whether it's at an award show or whether it's out of red carpet or whenever I speak to people behind the scenes, that's the number one emotion that people are experiencing.

42:52And everyone's feeling it in a different way. So why do you think that is? I think it's because the way events are organized, they're not crafted for community and connection. So the challenge is that the way it's been built is not set up for people to come in and feel. So I went to one place that was, I went to Cannes Lions last week. I'd never been to the Lions Festival before. It was my first time there, I've been to Cannes. And it was crafted for community. Like I felt like you could walk into any space, you connect with people, you could hang out with people. You bumped into people walking in and out of stuff.

43:25No one had an ego where people were like, you know, on a high horse. Maybe that's part of our evolutionary state. That's 75 years of that festival. That's what I'm saying. And maybe we need to actually just start looking at every single micro experience rather than like we're all going to evolve, like something's going to happen, we're all going to evolve. It's like maybe we are. Maybe it is just like right down to the smallest thing, like an event like that where being able to walk in there and for you to feel connected to people and like you came away with something that was meaningful, not just valuable.

43:50Maybe that's going to inspire people to do it in multiple different places. I mean, I would like that. I've gotten better at just maintaining. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when you're younger, it's like, oh my gosh, everything rests on this night. And then after a while, you're like, can we go? That's exactly what it is. You're spot on. That's exactly what it is. Like when you first, I remember that when I first moved to LA, I went somewhere. It was like, oh my God, if I don't make this move right now, that's the end of my career. And then like years later, you're like, actually it didn't affect it at all.

44:18Someone asked a friend of mine who I was working with at the time. Someone in the industry was like, is Zane afraid of success when I first got to LA? Because I wasn't in 65 parties a night running around doing everything. And then, yeah. And my goals become very clearly that my intention is always like, can I find one person tonight who I can bear my soul to? Like if there's one person that I can fully be myself because then at that event, I've fully been myself. So how do you know who that person is? I know it probably changes, but is there a constant to that? You can get a sense pretty quick, obviously, and like we're saying, it's respective to what you personally are interested in.

44:48So for me, I'm hoping that I can have a conversation like I'm having with you today, which is meaningful, it's purposeful, it's vulnerable, it's open, it's thoughtful, it's about growth, it's about being better. But when I walked in the house today and we met for the first time and we sort of held each other's gaze for a second and it was like, all right, cool, we've got this moment here, Like it's, it's more than just like transactional, like, all right, if we're going to do this, let's do this and let's start and see where this relationship goes in the future. Right. It's not just going to be like, good to be on your podcast next.

45:14Yeah. Like, is that like, is there a technique to how you do it, how you find people? I wouldn't say it's a technique. I think it's more of a intuition. Like I do believe it's energetic as opposed to like ask these three questions. I don't think I have a, like a, a formula like that, but I feel like you can usually tell by someone's language, body language and emotional language as to whether you're on the same frequency or vibration. I find over time, I've been able to, to sense that. And, and I've also realized where your ego wants to force it with someone because there's personal gain. Oh, that's self-awareness.

45:52That's big self-awareness energy right there. Yeah. You can tell when it's like, oh, there actually isn't a frequency, but I'm pretending there is or hoping there is or trying to manufacture it because I think this person can do something for me or I'm useful to them or I feel significance because I'm being useful to them. Yeah. I think also realizing that you don't want to be that to someone, but also someone's trying to be that to you. Correct. It's really important for anybody going into any area of life. And it's something that I think people should try to develop that radar from a young age because it'll save you so much time and energy.

46:25Yeah. Yeah. And also it's fine to acknowledge that you're doing that to me and I'm doing that to you because we're in a trade that's totally fine yes great work great things come out of that but friendship is different like I'm really realizing how important my friendships are and I'm and there are multiple types of friendships there are people I love to just hang out with and sometimes some of them I like to talk industry with and music with and they're not the people I'm going to call up and have a heart to heart with about something else and there are others that you know I know I can call up when I'm at a low point or they can call me and there is that.

46:58I think it's just understanding that, you know, we all serve, we all serve a purpose. And if you're in someone's life, you've got a purpose, just understand, try to understand what that purpose is. That's what being thoughtful with your thoughtfulness is to me. Like maybe I'm not the person to pick the phone up and check on someone's wellbeing. Cause that's not the kind of friend I am to that person, but they have those friends. It doesn't mean I'm not their friend. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. We have different relationships with different people in our life that, that serve us in different ways. And we serve in different ways and knowing how you do that for someone is is so important it's really important and yeah it's that's that's a big self-awareness lesson that i think you know it took me a while to figure that out i was always trying to like be all things to everyone i think yeah for a lot of my life trying to fix everything be all things be this be that be funny be caring it's like sometimes just be funny or not just try that's a great boy i love that yeah that's that's actually really powerful to think that like i think you're so right we want to be all of ourselves to everyone yeah well Oh, because we're covering all the bases.

47:53Yeah, covering all the bases. And there's that subtle ego in like, we want to be considered funny and this and smart and this. How do you manage your ego in a situation like this where you, I mean, you said at the very beginning, you have the number one health podcast in the world. Congratulations, by the way. Like that's a real thing to have a number one of anything, but to have a number one in an area where you're adding so much value and support to people. But the very nature of a number one anything is really, that's just like, you know, bourbon for the ego, right? It's like number one is like, by its very nature is connected to an ego experience.

48:31How do you continue to build around success, but manage, what's your relationship like with your ego in this environment? Yeah, it's a, I would say it's a constant conversation on a daily basis between my conscious self and my ego self. I think that it's something I have to be vigilant of on a daily basis because of the world we live in and the environment we're in just someone that I mentored messaged me this morning and he's kind of having a real moment in his career and things are going well and he was saying the same thing to me because Jay I don't think this is healthy for me like I'm worried about my ego and I was like this is amazing the fact that you're even aware and you're conscious and you're because 99 % of the time you have the success and then it falls apart and then you think about your ego and so for me I there are a few things that I do the first thing is that But I always look at how I compare to the work I really want to do.

49:29So the impact I really want to make in the world is not just downloads or views or whatever else or numbers. it's actually i'm trying to create a journey for everyone that connects with my work from entertainment through to education through to personal enlightenment in how they define that term and to me it's like i'm trying to create that journey by building steps that i know from the journey that i've been on the journey that i'm still on and the journey that i've learned from the greats and trying to put those building blocks in place for people and my goal is unless I'm helping people walk that journey the number is is insignificant but you but the but the beautiful thing is because by the way I'm not anti-ego like ego serves an important role this is a great conversation you know there's ego and it and those two things need to be managed in in a way that with like I said a sense of self-awareness and understanding of what is going to press your buttons both positive and negative but what I'm interested in is like it's interesting because because you're building this thing internally from within your own vision your own what inspires you it's come from this tiny little fire that you're building into this beautiful thing that helps people but you can't help more people without your ego serving a purpose a role yes absolutely and so i think engaging it and being aware of it the only two options you have because i think that when you try and ignore that there were probably even times in my life where i tried to suppress the desire to do and make an impact because you think it's ego not realizing that then it's just brewing and now you're envious of everyone else that's why the word humility so interesting to me right because we kick around humility all the time like it's a really important positive part of our makeup and it is it can be there's a time to be humble and there's no universally sort of positive humility and there's no universally negative ego complexities across both of them but it's interesting isn't it like you can find yourself if you deny your ability and what you love and your talent and and your ambition too much you find yourself in a false state of humility yeah and you can't help the people you want to help so it's ultimately turning your back on what you should be doing yeah and and to me ego when it gets dangerous is when you feel better or worse than others and so i feel like there's a difference between doing what you think you're meant to do and doing it well than thinking you do it better like i am friends with so many people in this space who do, who are number one in their fields, but, and even in a similar field in a different way.

52:00Like I know a phenomenal set of scientists in this space who are doing incredible health and wellness work and are number one in the way they do it. But it's like, I have my own version and I have my own way and method. And that's what I'm excited and have an ego about, I guess, is the idea that I'm doing what I'm doing, but it's not a, it doesn't make me better than someone or worse than someone. And I think - It's so interesting, isn't it though? Because growing up, like in music, there is an innate competitiveness of wanting to be the best. And in sports, you won't find a coach that will look you in the eye and tell you that that attitude is going to get you to be the best in the world, right?

52:36So it's so interesting how we relate to this thing that I think we know very little about. Yeah, which is why I think some of the best athletes, like I know that Cristiano Ronaldo, who's the biggest football and soccer star in the world for anyone who's listening. Is he though? I mean, him and Messi. We just did a little Rolling Stones Beatles thing. Yeah, exactly. The world is divided. My TikTok feeds me Cristiano Ronaldo. My one feeds me Messi. Yeah, there you go. We're a complete human being. And now we're in the US and so Messi, everyone's excited because Messi's coming to Inter Miami. Get on board, man.

53:06And he's awesome. And my point being that whenever he does an interview, I always see him say, I have to think I'm the best in the world. Like I have to think that way is what he'll say. And I think that's really interesting language because he's not saying I am or I definitely am saying, I have to think that way in order to perform at my best. So he's dividing it into a mentality versus a reality. Correct, yeah, that's beautifully said. Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's what's so fascinating that if you sat down with Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant, who I had the pleasure of interviewing, or today LeBron, it's like, I'm sure they have to feel that way, but it's whether like if they were, you know, all things said and done behind closed doors, you know i'm sure they have an opinion on on stuff that you can say when you retired too that you couldn't say when you were playing are you a manifester i would honestly say i've been an accidental unintentional manifester so i don't believe that i ever set out to say okay i believe in manifestation i know how it works and i'm gonna do it i don't think i ever had that i've just had things happen in my life where i can track back when i first visualized it in my mind and then it came to fruition, but I never intended for that to happen.

54:17And so when that happened, did you ever have the intention to try to kind of do it more or master it or anything else? Or were you just like, I love the curiosity of that. I like to let it happen. I love the curiosity and I love the magic of it because that also makes me realize that it's beyond me. And I like that humility. I love that. Okay. So the mystery of it is, that's cool. That surrender of it that I don't, I love the idea that it's happening and it's happened in my life so subconsciously. that it also makes me recognize that there is more than me to this. I'm saying I'm more like you than I am like some of the other people who I know who, you know, are continually searching for that feeling that they can, and with some success.

54:56Again, yeah, oh yeah, yeah. I know people who I consider to manipulate material energy. Like they have that ability. And I don't, that's just not - Ryan Reynolds. Ryan Reynolds is a master manifester. Yeah. I'm so sorry, but you cannot take Wrexham and do that unless you know how to bend energy. forms. Yeah, absolutely. That's the point. They sell billion dollar telecom companies. Oh yeah, that mint. Yeah. And I don't think there's a right or wrong again. Like I don't think someone who focuses on manifesting in the, in the sense that the way it's been packaged or marketed is, is a bad thing. It's just not the way I function.

55:30Can I ask you another question? Is it cool if I ask you a question? Of course, this is a real conversation. I want to, I want to talk to you about ambition, like what your relationship is with your ambition, because you have a big, you have, you've already built something massive and you want to continue to reach more people. Um, so how do you manage your ambition into something that is balanced with your life? I think it's evolved over time. So I've always honestly said that when I first started, I was working 16 to 18 hour days and seven days a week, but I never missed meditating. and that was always my grounding practice i was like i'm gonna meditate and i'm gonna work my socks off because i kind of had that moment of or at least what i've heard when you were saying that about your kids like i remember the first time i felt the door open and i was just like i never believed this door would ever open like i have to be so grateful and responsible for this and that was through meditation that was no no no that was oh no spiritually that had happened i mean like externally with building a platform got it got it like when you realize like wow i have a shot.

56:33I have an opportunity to do this, you know, like I was happy and content. And anyone who knows me back then would verify this. Like I was happy and content doing what I do today for the 10 people that showed up every week for 10 years. And I was so happy. I didn't feel like, oh, there's not enough people or like, oh my God, I'm not like, I just felt grateful and happy that even 10 people would show up. And I loved it. And then at one point I did feel, I was like, I feel this message matters. The people that are coming are having great success from it. I think it should reach more people. So I should attempt to.

57:03And when I attempted and I had that first glimpse, then I was like, wow, I'm so grateful and I should be responsible for this. And I shouldn't take this, I should take this as a gift and I should give my heart and soul to it, not just live off this momentary success. So for me, that's, to me, the graft was me expressing my gratitude back to the universe to say, I see that you've given literal me a shot. And I feel my only way of expressing my thanks and appreciation back to you for this gift is to show you that I'm willing to work to make the most of it. Correct. So that was like a couple of years where I did that.

57:42As soon as I started doing that and things started to grow externally, I started to realize, all right, this is not sustainable, like on an energy level. And so then I cut back. So then I was like, I'm only going to work five days a week. So I took my weekends back. I was still working evenings. Now I'm at a point where I've taken my weekends and my evenings. Because that to me is like, that's, that's the crucial moment where perhaps some like maturity and some life and some, some distance between youthful ambition, the desire that I've got to go and take every opportunity I can versus where you were at that moment in your life really served you.

58:12Yes. Because, because that, that's the moment when I think it can consume people and relationships get hurt and, or, or get torched. and we chase something so far down the road that we forget where we wanted to go in the first place. Totally. So yeah. That's a really great point. And I think for me, it was like - That was a turning point for you that moment, right? Yeah. And at the beginning, it was just like, all I'm as is this and my wife. Like those are the only two things that mattered. I don't really have time for anything more than that. And now I'm at a point where working backwards, where now I only work, I have the privilege of only working 9 a.m.

58:47to 6 p.m. and don't work evenings or weekends. And now I can take care of my wife and my friends and my family. Because you're in the era of no. Yeah. And I think there was an era of complete yes. And there has to be. And there has to be. There has to be. And I don't want to lie about not like perfect balance. You can't get to no without figuring out like where your line is. And you can't figure that out unless you push yourself. And that's what work is. That's what the working era is. Like when you just grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind. But yeah, I'm a fan of balance. I was talking to someone about this the other day about ambition.

59:20Because I have friends of mine who are never going to stop. and I love them for that. And they just, to them, it's all out there. And why would they ever not grab every opportunity or explore the next thing and no numbers too big and no opportunities too far away. And I love it. And I've definitely been that in my own way. But I'm reaching a point in my life, which isn't to say I'm going to turn down opportunities or I'm not in semi-retirement mode. I want to do my best work over the next 10 years, but I want to do it in a way that is joyful. And to your point, really make gratitude like the number one driving force.

1:00:02I think to be truly grateful, you need to allow yourself space to be grateful. I think we kick the word gratitude around a lot. I know I've been definitely the kind of person who's like done 100 things in a day. And then when I've had two minutes at the end of the day gone, I'm really grateful. oh yeah thank you so much for and it's like it's not a checklist item like you got to feel it yeah and i think to do that and i guess that's what meditation provider i've never been able to find the space to meditate and calm my mind down enough i know i will i just can't force it yeah you have a naturally zen energy though that's cool yeah it's like i i would have thought you were a meditator which is quite nice yeah which is yeah you you have that i the i always said like i mean and Kobe Bryant did meditate, but he was the most, like he had the most gravity around him of any person I've ever met.

1:00:51Like he was just like time, like things stood still when he spoke and there was that, but he did meditate. But I feel like you have a real, like there's a peace around you, even though it's not, you know, if it's not from that, which is really beautiful. Hard earned peace. Yeah, hard earned peace. Yeah. But I think it's true. Like I think also, you know, it's what we're saying about the yes and no. There's also a different time in life. sometimes it's scale sometimes it's speed sometimes it's strategy sometimes it's sincerity sometimes it's you know like it's i i think what you realize is that if you just go speed speed speed speed like that doesn't actually make any sense well you miss your opportunities more than you actually grab them i think yeah you think about like being a formula one racer it's not speed at every turn that helps them master the track speed's a massive part of it but only when you need to go fast only when you need to go fast like round the bend if you just go fast because you're like no no no i just got to beat the other guy you could potentially turn over and throw the you know the the race away that's why i love boxing so much like i've just started to like like do boxing training and stuff it's my wife boxes that's the most fun it's the it's the greatest exercise i've ever done i've struggled with exercise my whole life fits and starts like everybody else no pun and well pun very much intended um but yeah this is a whole other level i love it right and the reason i love it is because like my mom has dementia and and she's the latter stages of dementia, I feel.

1:02:12And it's, it's, it's been really tough to witness, but I've also watched church sort of want to hold onto memories and the whole cognitive awareness thing has become very present for me. And what I love about boxing is that it's really, it's, it's, it's 100 % mind and body and it's about strategy and it's about people just think you just bash stuff. It's so not the most tiring thing I do when I'm working out boxing is the inside work where I'm not, I'm not actually punching anything. I'm just trying to push this guy off like that's the most exhausting thing out of any of it like punching the mitts is like just rhythm yeah that's the driving fast correct yeah and that's what i mean i think we just live in one mode of like speed or or slow we think we think those are the only two things to play with yeah yeah and when you box or if you drive a car or whatever maybe you start going oh wait there's there's so many other yeah dials to play with here yeah yeah and so i think i'm trying to you know i've i've realized that and i also realized that it's the same as a hike like getting up the hill is different to staying at the top and getting down again and going deep into the valley like yeah it requires a different skill set and so i try and you know i i try and live a very disciplined life health-wise in order to be able to be high performing and i value all of that like the high performance world like i value all the do you have cheat days though do you allow yourself a chance to slip out a routine always i mean you have to like this morning was one of those mornings i said so i was you just got back off tour for a start so you're all over the show right No, no, no, no, I wasn't.

1:03:33That's the thing. I allow myself like small windows and then I go back. But like this week, I haven't missed a single workout. And this morning, last night I told my friends that I was going to work out with today. I go, guys, I'm sleeping in tomorrow. I'm burnt. I'm not going to be there. I'm tired. So I woke up an hour and a half later than I usually wake up today. It was the best thing I ever did. And I loved it. Do you sleep well? I sleep, yeah. That's a big thing for me. I actually read you, that's been something you've had to work through, right? Dude, I've never been, I'm not a good sleeper.

1:04:01I never mean a good sleeper. you know what's crazy and I was telling a friend of mine who's in a band about this this morning because she was like I'm just trying to kind of come down off tour and I said listen man let me give you a bit of advice and I know it's going to work for you but I'm telling you like I read somewhere something ages ago where Rick Rubin said that he goes out every morning when he wakes up and exposes himself to natural light yes first thing he does is expose himself to natural light and then someone else said it and I was like alright this is like too many things pointing in this direction and I haven't had a good night's sleep in a long time and so I started going outside and it was so strange, it was such an alien experience for me to stand out in my yard at like 6.30 in the morning in my boxer shorts I feel like a weirdo, this is really weird and then the second day we felt less weird and the third day felt less weird and I started putting shorts on because I was like, you know, I'm going to enjoy this.

1:05:01And I had been sleeping like I wake up and my head is just like heavy on the pillow and I'm just rested. Like that works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That circadian rhythms thing. Yes, yeah. I mean, it's crazy. Like, yeah. Yeah, no, they're all ancient practices. I know you do yoga too. and so the ancient yoga asana is called the Surya Namaskar. So what that means is sun salutations. And so the ancient practice was the first thing you do in the morning is you salute the sun, which was that bathing and gazing and paying respects to the sun. And that was what was happening. Like your circadian rhythm was kicking off.

1:05:44Now you're on that circuit. And we sit there and we read that and we think, oh, it's only a worship to the sun. It's all worship-based, but actually it can be worship based and it can also be lifestyle related. Exactly. They were figuring out how to get a good night's sleep. Exactly, yeah. They were figuring out how to get vitality and energy as well. And that's what they were paying gratitude to the sun for. And your day started with gratitude, but for everything, not just for being the sun, but for the light, the heat, the warmth. I mean, for everything that it provides, right? So we have all this literature and all these opportunities, like even in this conversation to be able to just dive into all of this.

1:06:18And there'll be the people who roll their eyes and they're probably not listening or watching. and there'll be the people who are open and absorbing and ready to sort of try and make positive changes and help others further down the line. But where do you think we're going wrong? Like if the ancient species were saluting the sun, increasing their ability to be able to manifest good things, understood the power of gratitude, understood the power of rest, understood what they needed in order to maintain that. This is thousands of years ago. why do you think we seem to be getting either further away from that or trying to get back to that but we haven't actually gone on from that yeah i mean it's a it's a big question and one place i really experienced it beautifully was when i was in hawaii and every morning which island we were on the big island okay so in kona kawaii is like i've heard i need to go i need to go ever been to a place where the the energy the ley lines and the oxygen coming up from the ocean is so intense.

1:07:15It's amazing. I need to go next year and you'll have to give me all the recommendations. No, I've got no recommendations. It's not that kind of place. The beautiful thing is it's just pure local. Like, it's not like go here, go here, go. Just rent, just get a really awesome little Airbnb near the ocean. That's my recommendation. Okay, good. And just barefoot it to the coffee store every day. I love it. Anyway, sorry. No, no, no, no. And so I remember when we were in Hawaii, we'd get like a kayak every morning, one of their, I forget the official name of this big like canoe kayak. They have a name for it.

1:07:42jumped in we'd go out they'd pay their respects to the sun they had their own offerings which i loved learning about they'd offer it to the water like so what i find that where we've gone wrong is that we've unlearned and reconditioned to a new way of working so hard and so strong and for so long that undoing that and resetting our habits to be healthy for us is the biggest challenge so discipline is 99 % of the challenge. And I think the problem is that because if you think about school, which was the only thing that had the opportunity to discipline us and parenting, those are probably the only two things that you have.

1:08:20Certainly our introduction to it. Your introduction to it. As school discipline, you always knew what you were going to do. You always knew what the next grade was. You knew what the next class was. It was all mapped out for you. You never actually had to discipline yourself. And so when that runs out at age 18 or 21, whenever you finish school, you now are left to your own devices to figure out discipline. And you've never actually been taught how to build a habit, how to break a habit, how to grow discipline, how to end discipline, right? You just, and that's really what's missing. Like my wife has single-handedly coached me to better eating habits than anyone ever has in my life.

1:08:56And I had to live with her every single day, you know, for the past seven years for her to do that for me. And I'm like, well, if I didn't live with her, I don't think I would be able to do these health changes. Like to me, eating pizza, burgers, you know, a Sprite or a 7-Up, like that was my like every other day. And then all of a sudden I married my wife and she's just like, you know, I'm sure that I was doing. Yeah, and you know, like, and I'm like, well, wait a minute, it took that much coaching and guidance and steer. So I don't think anyone's at fault. I think it's more that society set us up to not know how to, the biggest skill you can learn is how to build a habit and how to break a habit.

1:09:32Yeah, because one of the best things that we're capable of doing, but we tend to use against ourselves is the ability to absorb and translate. Absolutely. And it's like, all right, if you can manipulate that, if you know how to put things in, because we're really complex, but also quite simple. Totally. Everything's a routine. Right. Everything's a pattern. It takes one person to do something cool and we live in a singularity pretty quickly. It's just like, you know what I mean? It's just like, oh, that's cool. Let's all do that. Yeah. Right. We all do it. And so, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

1:09:58Like, I think you're right. We allow ourselves and to your point about discipline, we need to have the confidence in our own abilities and in our own determination to be disciplined enough to do what's right for ourselves yeah right yeah because otherwise i think we are susceptible to the the shiny lights yeah of course and and i think that discipline comes ultimately through going what is truly valuable to me it goes back to what you were saying that that singularity of not having this fragmented approach to, I want to be this and I want to be this for that person. I want to do that. You know, it's, well, what do I care about?

1:10:35You used to overwork too, right? Like that was a big, big thing for you. Big. Did it lead to, did you ever get to that brink of burnout and pain? And that's what shifted you? Yes, absolutely, man. I had physical pain for like five years. Chronic pain, like? I wouldn't say it was chronic. It was a consistent, there were consistent pains. Where in the body? arm, finger, neck, lower back, hip. Wow, a lot. Yeah, a lot of pressure points. And a lot of it really was, well, there's a couple of things going on there. There was some stuff I had to process from one side of the brain to the other that I hadn't done.

1:11:12So it was stuck in my body. So once I actually started to work that through in therapy. And you did that all through therapy, that shift. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, my guy put me to sleep. Once he basically broke it down for me, I was like for 20 minutes woke up and three weeks later things started to dissipate but also I was I was absorbing a lot into my body through of the of the work and the stress and the overwork because I didn't have anywhere else to put it and so my body was trying to protect me it was like well we'll store it but after a while that body gets filled up and then it starts to ache and hurt and the pain starts to happen and I really genuinely thought I'm just going to live with these aches this will be it for the rest of my life right as long as it doesn't kill me I can live with it why would you want to live with pain so i'm so glad that i was able to kind of start to unlock that so verbal release you all the therapy you did was traditional therapy it was more even just a concept that actually in my mind in my brain i have been storing it in an area where my brain is telling me to put it all in here and what i need to do is to create space in here to put it somewhere which has infinitely more ability to be able to process and distribute and remove and and and to release.

1:12:21So I needed to get it over there. And as simplistic as that sounds, it just worked for me. I mean, it was a concept and perhaps it's rooted in truth and perhaps it's not. I'm sure there'd be people who are saying, what are you talking about? And other people who'd be like, ah, that's exactly right. But you know, the way that it was, it was, it was explained to me was that I had been storing it in my brain because I didn't have the ability to be able to deal with it emotionally. And so I didn't want to. And so once I figured out that I didn't have anything to be afraid of, just talk it through, get it out, release it, let it go.

1:12:46It started to transfer and the pain starts to disappear that's the first time i've heard about that in therapy that's cool but i was working through it yeah like working around the clock because again it's a great distraction isn't it you know getting up and going to work is a great way to spend your time avoiding things that you don't really want to deal with and it's also more productive so the harder you work the more you achieve the more you achieve the more you tell yourself you're okay the more you tell yourself you're okay not dealing with absolutely so it's like okay you know and the opposite the opposite's also true which is why back to your argument of balance like the opposite's also true where you have, you're too idle and there's no direction and there's no pursuit and there's no work.

1:13:20Yeah, for sure. There's an infinite amount of ways to do it. I'm just, that's how I did it. And, um, and you know, there's a difference between working hard and, and working and working hard. Right. Like, like for me, it's like, I love to work and I love to work hard, but I don't have to work hard to be working well. Right. I can, I can, I can do it in a way that is like, you know, efficient and good for my balance. Excuse me. Good for my balance. my decision-making got better my ability to delegate got better I became less stressed out about the things that I didn't have any reason and or right to be stressed out about I stopped feeling a need to respond to every single email and every single thing and I start to trust the process and I don't know you have to ask my colleagues but I feel like I'm happier and better at what I do hmm so yeah I'm a big believer in in just because you put in the hours in doesn't mean you're actually getting the most out of it.

1:14:14Absolutely. Absolutely. You've sat with so many of the, you know, most iconic artists of our time and this generation. And, you know, you're a brilliant interviewer. You ask awesome questions. You listen so effectively. Like it's fun to watch, like genuinely fun to watch. Who do you feel was like wise beyond their years or like an old soul? Because most of them are young. Like a lot of them are very young. Who did you find was kind of like? I find the conversations that leave me most inspired and feeling like something in my life has changed and I've learned something new tend to come from the people who reached a point in their life where they're not trying to sell something anymore.

1:15:05And they don't have to do this. it's there's some value in the conversation and perhaps they're looking for a learning themselves the truth is more often than not i find elements of that in everybody because i'm not trying to squeeze juice out of the lemon i'm genuinely not trying to sell anything at this point in my life i love music so it's easy for me to talk about it and to say it's great and to back and forth about it. But I don't feel any need. And I don't feel there's any requirement for me at this point in my life to try to sell anything. When I go into the conversation, and I don't know if I was going to answer your question, because no one immediately sprang to mind because I think I'm not, I'm not existing in a hierarchy anymore.

1:15:56Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a beautiful answer. I'm not, I'm not thinking like this person surprised me or this person was not charming or this person was wise beyond their years. If you'd asked me that five years ago, I could have given you an answer like that. That's a beautiful answer. I love that. But I'm trying to go into every conversation, whether it's little Yachty or Neil Young or Billie Eilish or, you know, whatever. I'm just trying to go into a conversation from a position just like us of what is the most interesting and human experience that I can have. And I remove as much of the cell as I can.

1:16:35And I try to get into a place with people where like, I don't really have questions anymore. And I don't really go in with a high, with a, with a, with a framework anymore. I just try to feel the music, retain how it makes me feel and just get to that as much of that feeling as I can in the conversation. And so everyone is surprising and everyone catches me off guard with their observations because I'm not going in with any prior observations or any kind of premeditated framework. I'm not coming in and going, I think I know what you're like. And I will say that the one only time I've ever had a proper long form conversation with Justin Bieber changed.

1:17:19That's what changed it for me because I thought I was going to get a great conversation focused on an album that served the purpose that the label and the management and the artist wanted it to serve and serve the purpose that Apple Music wanted it to serve and I would get something out of it too and that conversation became something very different very quickly and I realized that he wasn't interested really in selling anything either on that day and that was the moment that I learned how to listen and stopped trying to control the narrative and gave myself the the space to go with it and not panic it's just a moment it's just people yeah stay present listen observe and try and figure it out so from that point forward everybody that i've spoken to really i get there with everyone in some way shape or form yeah yeah that if that makes sense makes so much sense makes beyond sense i love it i every every time i'd have a conversation with anyone before that I would come in with so many different metrics of, you know, questions and orders and this and that and expectations and whatnot.

1:18:26And, you know, if you ever get a chance to sit, if you haven't already opposite Neil Young, you cannot go into it with that. He has no interest. It's like, this is all that matters. And if you think you're going to be able to sort of carve out some shape with him then he's just gonna be like look man like it's not what i'm here for i'm not interested in it so i really like this yeah yeah yeah i love that thank you for saying that i don't know what to do with the old method anymore i used to have one i just don't know what to do with it yeah and every now and then i find myself falling i find myself falling into it because i'm worried and i can't stick to it everything you need to know is in the answer right every question you need.

1:19:11You have a structure when you're untrained. And then when you're trained, it's spontaneous, spontaneous. It's like a, I just wasn't listening, Jay. I was just going in and trying to figure it all out before it even happened, which is very in line with who I was and who I've been. And how people train too, I think sometimes, right? Yeah. I'm just terrified. I mean, a very anxious person. I got to know that, you know, my therapist always says, you know, anxiety is based on not knowing the outcome, right? You're scared of what the outcome is going to be. And so, you know, I need to prepare for every outcome.

1:19:38And at the end of the day, what I really need to do is just start and listen and it will be what it will be. Zane, this has been such a special, honest, open conversation. I've loved every bit of it. And we end every on purpose interview with a fast five. So these are questions we do ask everyone. Okay. And every question has to be answered with one word to one sentence maximum. Okay. So it's short answers. So Zane Lowe, these are your fast five. The first question - Do they change every time? No. Okay. They stay, four out of five stay exactly the same. Okay, hit me. Okay, so the first question which we've asked everyone who's ever been on the show is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

1:20:14Be yourself because everyone else has taken. Nice. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? Eat that, it's not that hot. All right, question number three. Hot ones, at me. Seriously, hot ones, call me. My kids won't ever respect me until I'm on that show. I love that. Question number three, what is... The one thing that if you'd want your children to remember every day, what would it be? You are loved and you can love. Love that. Question number four, what's something you're trying to unlearn right now? That I don't have to wash my hands every time I touch a surface and I don't have to check the taps.

1:21:01I'm always trying to unlearn my OCD compulsions. How does that affect life? Where's that? It's been my life for so long that I think the most frustrating thing is I'm used to it. That's what frustrates me the most. If I ever stop and take a step back and realize and actually try to step back for myself and realize what I'm doing and what it must look like, not that I'm ashamed of it or that I worry about what other people think of it, just for my own sense of awareness, I get very frustrated and really try to tell myself, Like if you don't do this routine, the world is not going to end. And I have varying degrees of success.

1:21:40That's hard. But I'm always trying to unlearn it. Fifth and final question that we ask every guest on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? That we would allow ourselves the privilege of listening to each other before we act. That we would do our best to understand. And there are many points of view and that level of understanding and ultimately that knowledge would allow us to come together to fix things and not keep breaking things. So needed. Zane Lowe, everyone, if you've been listening or watching wherever you are, whether you're walking a dog, whether you're cooking, driving, whether you're at home, whether you're at work, wherever you are, thank you so much for listening and tuning in.

1:22:18I hope that you'll tag me and Zane with the things that you love, the things you're going to talk about this week because of this podcast, the things you're going to share with your friends and your family that resonated strongly with you please tag us both on twitter on instagram on tiktok on any platform you use uh sharing your favorite clips i love seeing what connects with you all and i hope this conversation is connected with you all as it has with me so thank you for listening and zane thank you for your generous time and energy and presence and i'm really grateful that we got to listen and connect with each other today so thank you so much same jay Thank you.

1:22:50Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my conversation with Megan Trainor on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out. My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for five minutes. It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C-section scar with all the stretch marks, now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked. But day three when I did it, I was like, you know what? Her thighs are cute. Okay, this is something that I've been waiting for and you are absolutely going to love it. My wife, Radhi's book, Joyful, is launching on February 27th.

1:23:28I am so excited for her first book ever to be in your hands and be in your home and fill it with joy. So go to j-o-y-f-u-l-l-book.com to pre-order now for an exclusive video and a daily wellness guide made by Radhi herself. Again, that's J-O-Y-F-U-L-L book.com, joyfulbook.com. Check it out, pre-order it right now, get your free video and wellness guide. You're going to love it. This is an iHeart Podcast.