Why 62% of Americans Never Break into Millionaire Status w/Nick Maggiulli

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20:58Dave:Welcome back to On the Market. I'm here with author and analyst and investor Nick Majuli talking about his new book, The Wealth Ladder. We've been talking about just how these different broad buckets of wealth influence how you should be thinking about money, the investing strategies, the income earning strategies that you should be thinking about. We've talked about one and two. I want to get to three because I think this is where a lot of people get stuck, at least in my experience. And it's not a bad place to be. I mean, having a hundred thousand to a million dollars in net worth is a fantastic place, but a lot of people dream about that.

21:35Dave:But it's, I don't know if you've seen this, but in my experience, coaching people in real estate, getting from three to four is a really big jump. Is that something you see as well? Yeah. So actually in chapter 10 of the book, I kind of looked through the mobility data. So like if you start in this level, what percentage of people that start in, let's say level three, make it to like level four over a 10-year period or a 20-year period. And in that chapter, like the two levels that are the hardest to break out of are level three and level four. Level four is actually harder over a longer period of time.

22:06So let's just use over a 20-year period. If you start in level three, roughly 62 % of households will still be in level three 20 years later. But for those that start in level four, it's 64%. So that is the highest number in the little matrix here on that's on page 154.

22:24Dave:So going from a million to 10 million is harder than going from a hundred thousand to 1 million. Yeah, this is hit. This is obviously based off historical data using household following the same set of households over time within the United States, right? And this is going from 1984 to 2021. So we're looking at all those changes overall, every 20 year period we can get in there. So there's not a lot of data, I admit, but regardless, it is it's harder and we can explain. I mean, it's just the amount's bigger. It's harder to get there. But I think one of the things to think about in level three, the difference between those that stayed in level three over, let's say, a decade versus those that made it to level four, the biggest difference is their income.

23:04So I talk about income a lot, and I know I'm kind of beating a dead horse with it, but it's so true. The difference between the households that stayed in level three over a decade versus those that started in level three and made it to level four is their income. Those that have a much higher income, and that allows them to save and invest more. And so I think the thing to focus on in level three, obviously, besides income is investing. And so whether you do that through real estate, whether you do that through a stock portfolio, your retirement account, etc, it's adding money and having that money grow over time.

23:31And that is by far, I think, the most effective way to do this type of thing to get into level four. If you're trying to go past level four, that's a completely different conversation. And you know, your 401k is not going to do it for you. And we can talk about why.

23:45Dave:I mean, it sounds obvious. Yeah. Just increase your income. But are you saying that is a bigger variable than the returns on your portfolio, whether that's in real estate or stocks? It really depends. So like when you say the return, I mean, because obviously we can take this to an extreme. If you're getting 100 % return a year, then it doesn't matter what your income is, right? Of course, yeah. But within like a normal range. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, if you're getting 7 % versus 12 % annualized returns or whatever. Yeah. And if you can get, so 7 % nominal, which is probably like a, let's say a four to 5 % real versus getting 12 % nominal, which is going to be like an eight or 9 % real that, that does make, that does make a difference, especially over, you could have a much lower income.

24:27And with that extra, you know, 4 % more per year on a nominal basis, that is no joke. That is a serious amount of money. But the thing is, I don't try to, okay, all you got to do is just get 4 % more than the market average. That's very difficult. All you got to do is beat the market. It's a very difficult thing to do. I'm not saying it can't be done, but to bank your strategy on that, there's a little bit more luck involved, in my opinion, than just trying to raise your income. You can do some sort of work and create value and then get paid money for that value. That seems easier and more likely for most people than like, hey, we need to assume that the price of these assets you're buying go up or they generate enough income for you to kind of have a higher return.

25:11Because obviously, you know, no one knows the future. Like we go through another COVID scenario, all sorts of things happen outside of your control. Sure. Which as much as I trust me, I love investing, I love talking about it. I always assume like a market portfolio, like an index fund or just like a broad-based REIT as my way of thinking about investment returns because I don't know what the market's going to do. And so I just have to assume the average return.

25:34Dave:Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's a really wise way of thinking about this. And it is not a popular opinion in the real estate investing world because I think in our world, a lot of it's like hustle, go maximize your returns, get that extra deal, go figure it out, get creative, which is true. In real estate, you could go from a 7 % nominal return, you could get 25 % nominal returns. If you're flipping houses, you get 40 % nominal returns. There is ways to do that, but it is super hard to forecast if those are going to exist well into the future. And my personal philosophy about real estate has always been just try and hit doubles.

26:11Dave:Don't try and do something super crazy. I still work. I'm past the point where I think a lot of real estate investors would stop working. But I just want to keep earning as much money as I can to just reinvesting into my real estate, trying to hit doubles. And sometimes they turn into home runs, and that's amazing. But sometimes as long as you're just like sort of protecting the downside, especially in real estate, because I think that's relatively easy to do if you buy well, you protect your downside and just keep investing, you're going to do well. And I think that's for me always been this path.

26:44Dave:I haven't put it in such a helpful framework like this. But it's sort of the way I've been able to create a sustained momentum upward, even during market cycles and trends. Yeah. I think that's what you have to do is you have to say, hey, I'm just trying to be consistent and get a decent return and not try and beat the market, go all out because that it's a double-edged sword. The types of behaviors you take to have a 40 % return in a year are the same type of behaviors that are going to get you a negative 40 % return in a year. Of course, I mean, that's still unlikely, but you get the point. Okay, cool.

27:18Dave:Now let's talk about group four. This is, I think, a group most of us aspire to be in at some point with a million dollars and$10 million in net worth. You said that this is the hardest one to get out of. Do you have any idea why? Yeah, because in level four, which is, as you said, one to 10 million, the strategy to get into level four is very different than the strategy to get out of level four. Level three and level four have more or less the same strategy. The only difference is one of them has a higher income. Like you could imagine someone has like a, you know, a decent job in the United States, maybe a blue collar job.

27:53Let's say they're making 80, 90K a year doing well. They'll just take time, save, invest. They'll get into level three, right? Now you take that same person and you put them in a maybe a slightly more, you know, higher compensated role. Let's say they're a lawyer or a doctor or something. Now they're more likely to get into level four, right? And so, but once again, it's the same thing. You go out into the society, you work, you collect a paycheck, you save, invest, right? That's the same thing. I mean, obviously, some lawyers and doctors can own their own practices and really kind of get beyond level four.

28:22But that's kind of getting into my next point, which is the difference between those that get into like level five, which is 10 million plus, is some form of business ownership. They actually own equity in a business. So they're not just working for money, but they have like their business, which they own. And they kind of own some of the labor of the individuals in the business as well, right? And so through that, through the capitalist system and using, we'll just call it entrepreneurship, they're able to either have a higher income, which really kind of ramps them up through level four into level five, or they sell the business eventually and have a large liquidity event that creates that wealth.

28:56And so that's why it's different because getting into level four, I'm not saying it's easy, but the strategy is pretty simple, right? It's like have a decent income, save that income over time, invest it, and just kind of wait. So it's like time, savings, investing, and a decent income.

29:12Dave:So in level four, though, I guess, yeah, you're asking people to sort of shift their approach because you're going from this maximize your current income, your active income, into becoming an entrepreneur. And I would imagine for a lot of folks, whether you're working in tech, you're a doctor, you're a lawyer, that's just like outside of your comfort zone. Whereas, I mean, again, I'm framing a lot of this through the lens of a real estate investor for our audience here. I wonder if real estate investing, the way you're framing it, to me sounds like a potential solution to some of this because it is both an investment and entrepreneurship.

29:48It definitely is. I didn't cover this as much in the book, but I think thinking about it this way, it can be. The only issue I have with real estate is because of the leverage. So it kind of makes it, it can be riskier at times depending on how exactly how levered you are, how many properties, Like the devil's in the details here, right? So, you know, you have one property, okay, put 20 % down on top of, let's say you have a primary residence or something that's different than like, okay, put 5 % down or nothing down or something like you hear about people that can work out these deals. And I think it just fundamentally changes because yeah, you do have a business now in some ways.

30:22And so it is possible. And especially with leverage, it makes it even more possible. But there's also the risk of, you know, falling down the wealth, you know, losing everything. You hear about Dave Ramsey say he lost his whole real estate portfolio early on because he was a little too levered. He had debt. He had a lot of stuff that he now doesn't recommend. But I think thinking through that is the key here. So yeah, I do really believe like besides like celebrities, athletes, entertainers, like those people that have like really, really high incomes. The only other way I know of getting into level five or beyond, which is 10 million plus is through some sort of business ownership where that business is paying you just an exorbitant income or it's you own the business and you just sell it one day for a lot of money.

30:59Dave:And is there any theme to what kind of businesses tend to work like outside of real estate? Is there or is it just any kind of business that winds up being successful? So I haven't looked into this data in particular, but I know there's a book coming out in the future called like the Stealthy Wealthy or something, which is a play on it's like a extension of, you know, Millionaire Next Door. And a lot of these people are like beverage distributors, like you're the biggest beverage distributor in a certain area or it's not always the most glamorous businesses. says it's not like tech companies all the time, but you know, there's different, there's a variety of businesses where this can be done.

31:33And so people can do it in real estate. People can do it in blue collar things. You hear about, Oh, I own a bunch of laundromats. Like that happens to all, all over the place. And so there's different ways of doing this. You know, I don't necessarily think that it's necessary to escape level five. That's another thing I want to talk or escape level four. I apologize. Yeah. I don't think that's necessary, but I'm saying if you want to, the tactics and the strategy are quite different. So just keep that in mind. If you are thinking about that. I don't think everyone wants to do that. I don't think it's necessary.

31:59I think you can be very, very happy on level four and just chill out. But unfortunately, not a lot of people want to listen to that.

32:05Dave:I do want to talk to you about that more, Nick, because I feel like this idea that you need to make linear or even exponential progress through these levels is not necessarily what a lot of people want. And I want to dig into that, but we do have to take one more quick break. We'll be right back. If you think property management is expensive, try mismanaging a vacancy or an eviction or a maintenance issue that turns into a five-figure problem because no one caught it early. That's expensive. A good property manager isn't overhead. They're protection against small mistakes turning into big losses.

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35:27Dave:Welcome back to On the Market. I'm here with Nick Majuli. Where we left off was talking, Nick, you made a comment about whether, you know, some people might just want to stay in one of these levels. And I, just as an analyst, always find it really interesting to dig into that data that talks about how at certain points getting wealthier has diminishing or almost even no value in terms of happiness or contentedness in your life. Did you look into that at all as you were researching this book? Yeah. So chapter 11 is the chapter called Does Money Buy Happiness? And the answer is a little complicated and I'll just summarize the result and then we'll talk about it.

36:05So if you're poor, more money will buy happiness. If you're happy, more money will buy happiness. But if you're not poor and you're not happy, more money won't do a thing. So how I translate that to the wealth levels. I like that. If you're in levels one or two, I do think more money can bring more happiness, period. If you're in levels three or four and you're not happy, money's not your issue. I'm pretty convinced money is not the problem that needs to be solved. It's something else in your life. It might be, oh, I don't feel motivated. I don't like my job. I mean, it's not that things can be related to money, but it's not money per se.

36:41right? And so, but in general, people that are, if you're really happy and just having a great time already, like, and you found more money, you would be happier. But if you're like unsatisfied with your life and you think money is the solution, it is not the solution. It's kind of a weird, it's like a bit ironic, right? It's like, if you're already feeling great, it's like, yeah, more money would actually make you happier. But if you're like chasing it because you're not feeling great, then it's actually not your solution. So it's very funny. But that's what the data shows. You know, everyone's probably heard that study from Kahneman and Deaton, which is like after$75 ,000 a year in income, there's no more happiness.

37:12Well, they went back and looked at the measure again. There's a guy named Killingsworth came and like they reanalyzed all the data. And that's actually not the correct conclusion from that original study. It's that more money doesn't prevent unhappiness. I know that's a double negative. More money doesn't prevent unhappiness beyond 75K. But basically it's like after 75K, you can still be unhappy. That's all. It does. It does prevent unhappiness below that. So going from, you know, 20K to 50K to 75K does actually prevent unhappiness. Beyond that, you can't stop unhappiness, basically. And so the new data was like, hey, the more income, we keep looking up further up the income spectrum, and then even looked into wealth as well.

37:50And the more wealth or income people have, the happier they tend to be, all else equal, assuming they're happy. If they're already happy, when they get more, they're even happier. There are those unhappy people where they didn't see that, though. If you're unhappy, it didn't matter how much you had. So it's a very interesting kind of flip of the script there. And so that's what I talk about. And so I'm like, hey, if you're in level three or four, and you're chasing money, because you think that's going to make you happier, that's not the solution. If you happen to be in those levels, and you happen to get more money than great, but that's, you know, it's really about your motivation around that is, I think, the more important thing.

38:24Dave:Yeah, I've obviously heard that study, a lot of people cite it, and it makes total sense. If you are just stressed about paying your bills, and your life is wanting for convenience and flexibility because you're just constantly working to make ends of me. Like I could imagine very easily, I've been there at points in my life where you just, it makes you unhappy. It stinks. It's not fun. But I guess when you reach a certain point, would it be fair to say, basically, at a certain point, you just need to be a happy person. And then if you happen to make money, you can scale that happiness, but it's not going to be a solution for you.

39:01Dave:And I think that's a really important lesson for our community. I don't know, Nick, how much you follow the real estate investing education world, but there's a lot out there about scaling to 100 doors or getting 1 ,000 units. I honestly think it's crazy. I think much more modest schools are probably better for the average person or you're going to be running a massive company and you're going to be back to having no time or anything like that. And so I just hope everyone listening to the podcast takes what Nick is saying here to heart that, yeah, real estate investing can be an amazing tool for moving throughout these levels.

39:38Dave:But you don't necessarily need to. And getting to level three or four is an accomplishment in itself. And for a lot of people, it might just be enough to stay there. And that's totally fine, especially if you're a happy person. Then you have it all. Yeah, I agree. I think a lot of this is, you know, I talk about this in part three of the book. It's kind of like the kind of zoom out, talk about what is wealth really, like what other types of wealth are there, like thinking through all these things. And one of the things that I kind of argue is that the reason people chase money is not even for money and obviously for what it can buy and stuff, but it's easy to measure.

40:13Like that's the thing. You have a scorecard. You have something you can like, I have a tangible thing I can look at. I can pull out of the bank, do things with it, right? It's much harder to measure like your social wealth or your time wealth. How much free time do you have, right? Like there's your health. Like even I can get a lipid panel once a year. I can get my blood drawn. I can, you know, go do a VO2 max test or something, but I can't check it like every day. Like I could check my bank balance. And so I think there's something to that where like because it's so easy to measure, people chase it so often.

40:44And I think that's a big piece of what's going on here. And just I think people need to realize that, especially those people like, you know, oh, you make it. Oh, I want to get to this or that. Like that's great. And that's fine. If you really want to do it, you can, but there are trade-offs associated with that. And I don't know if that's going to be your health. I don't know if that's going to be your relationships. I don't know if that's going to be your time. And so, you know, once you like, I talk about, I wrote this blog post a long time ago called the liabilities of success, which is like, imagine I, so I just write a blog post once a week, right?

41:12And so people ask me, why haven't you started a YouTube? Why haven't you started a podcast? Let's say I start this podcast or I start a YouTube channel and I go, I have to get an editor. I have to film myself. I have to spend so much more work than I spend now just writing my once a week blog post. Now let's say it actually succeeds. So it does the thing that I'm hoping it to do, right? Oh my gosh, it's doing exactly what I want. Well, guess what now? I have to keep producing this content. I am now on this hamster wheel where I have to keep giving my fans what they want and all this and all that.

41:39I technically have that right now with my writing, but one blog post a week for me is relatively easy. I've been doing it for a long time. It's not too hard to write a thousand words. Compare that to a YouTube show or a podcast. There's a lot more work that goes into that, at least for me. I'm not that experienced with that. So if I get what I want, which is the success, I am now trapping myself in this liability of this success. Right. And it's not like I can just sell it because like, oh, the YouTube or the podcast can be based on me. It's not a business I can go sell to someone. Oh, hey, you can have my podcast.

42:08It doesn't work like that. Right. Or at least I haven't heard of many podcasts where that's worked out. Right. So me thinking about that, it's like, OK, you want to have 100 doors, you want to have a thousand doors. Do you know what it's like to have that? Do you realize what the demands on your time are going to be like? You're going to have to run that business. You're going to get that. Okay, let's say you get there. You have that success now, but now you're trapped with that level of success. And so you have to think about, is that what you really want in dealing with that? So only thing I push back a little bit on when we discuss these issues.

42:36Dave:Yeah. I just want to circle back to what you said earlier, just about the measurability of wealth. I think that's super true. It's easy to check in on. And one thing I think about a lot is just how there is no other quantifiable metric that societally we value. You know, if people want to feel good about themselves in our society, for better or worse, they look at their wealth. And like, there are obviously other things that I believe are more important than wealth, but like, how do you quantify contentedness or wellbeing or a sense of purpose? Like, it's very difficult to quantify. Net worth, super easy to quantify.

43:13Dave:So people, you know, there's this saying in business that I always follow. It's like, what gets measured is what gets done. And so you measure wealth. People pursue that because it's something that they can benchmark against. It's something that they can track. And the other things that might actually make you have a better life just lack that measurability. And it probably leads to a lot of unhappiness or discontentedness in our society because people don't know how else to evaluate themselves. Yeah, I also think it's very school-based. Like, you know, oh, I got a I got a score of 80 on my test or 95 or 100.

43:50Like it's numeric. It's school based. It's easy to jump through those hoops, do well. Like I trust me, I did all this stuff. I had straight A's in high school. I was valedictorian. I did all this this stuff over time. I know what that's like. I've been down that road. I started to see myself going there. And I said, hey, like this is not the way to do this. Like I'm trying to do less stuff now. As much as like, you know, I have a job. I write the books and stuff. But like I'm not trying to go all out and have a YouTube and a podcast and this and that. And I've seen people do that. And it's great if they love it.

44:19That's great. But I think for me, it's like I'm really trying to say more no's now than yes's.

44:24Dave:One more question, Nick, and then we'll let you get out of here. A lot of the ideas that you have in this book are geared towards younger people getting into college, getting out of college, starting to figure out, like chart their path through their career, wealth building. Can you provide maybe some of the high level advice that you think our younger listeners should heed from your research and your thinking around this topic? Yeah. So I think the biggest thing, you know, in chapter two, I talk about the relationship between income and wealth and its strongest relationship in all of personal finance.

44:56And so I know it's very easy to be like, oh, just raise your income. Like I wish we all had a magic wand and we can do that. That's definitely not the case. but I think it is easier than people think if they are thinking about it over a multi-year period. If you're like, okay, you have to raise your income in the next month or two, it's very difficult, right? But if you think about a very long time period or a longer time period, it is doable and you have to just figure out, okay, what are the steps I need to take to start moving in that direction? Does that mean a side hustle? Does that mean getting different types of skills or an education or something?

45:30And I don't think everything just has to be like, Once again, I say education, everyone probably just thinks college. Sales is a skill. Can you sell something? Can you sell me something right now? I think that's a skill that's also AI is not going to be able to automate away. I don't imagine a world where we're buying houses from robot AI realtors. I really believe it's going to be people there that are selling you. People are going to be selling you most of your stuff. So that's just one example. There's other types of skills out there. I use that one because it's one that scales very well. You can sell one thing.

45:58You can go sell another thing. and eventually you make your way up the sales spectrum and there's really no limit on sales income in terms of if you just sell, you just have to sell more expensive items to people and that's how it works. But that's an example of something where you gotta really grind, learn the skillset and you can do it, but it just takes time. And so what is a multi-year plan you can put together or start thinking about to start raising your income over the next few years?

46:22Dave:It's great advice. And just to bring it back to real estate investing, I'll just tell a little bit of my personal story here. It was in 2014, 2015. I had been working in tech, had a decent job and had gotten, I think I was like seven units as a real estate investor. And I sort of had this decision point of like, should I go all in on real estate? Like it was a good time to be an investor in 2014. It was in Denver. It was a great place to be doing it. And ultimately I decided not to. And instead I went back to graduate school and took two and a half, three years, you you know, going to school at night, working a full-time job, manage my portfolio all at the same time, because I decided I'm a good real estate investor, but the parts that I'm good at, which is analyzing deals, looking at markets, that kind of stuff, I could still do not being a full-time investor.

47:12Dave:And in fact, the thing that I needed most was just more money to put into the deals that I was already having an easy time finding. And so I just, like you said, Nick, sort of looked at it in a long-term perspective and said, the best thing I can do for my real estate career is actually to supercharge my W-2 job. And that actually worked out quite well for me. I got a graduate degree. My salary went up 50 or 70 % when I finished graduate school. And that's what really supercharged my investing, not me all of a sudden quitting my job and having more time to go look at deals. It was just having more money.

47:48Dave:I was more lendable. I was able to go and build my portfolio a lot more aggressively because I took that sort of long-term approach. So really appreciate all the research and stuff you're talking about, Nick, and just kind of wanted to bring that back to real estate investors and how this could apply to you and your own portfolio as well. All right, Nick, thank you so much for being here. This was a lot of fun. Really enjoy talking to you. The new book is The Wealth Ladder. Where can people find it and where can they follow you? Everywhere books are sold, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Target, Apple Books, you name it, we're going to have it there.

48:18And they can follow me and on Twitter at dollars and data on LinkedIn at Nick Majuli or Instagram at Nick Majuli. And by the way, I answer every DM. So if you send me a DM, that's not absolutely unhinged or crazy. I don't think that's going to be your listeners, but you know, very rarely do I not answer a DM. I answer basically every DM.

48:37Dave:So I'm going to, I'm going to copy that from you because I also answer pretty much every DM, but I never say that publicly because sometimes they're unhinged and then I don't respond. They're like, you said you answer every DM. I just need to add that caveat. I don't, I'll be like, I will scream. If someone, if someone accused me of answering a DM and I find their DM, I will screenshot. I'm like, you said it, you called me out. I'm going to put your DM out here and let's see why we wouldn't answer it. So yeah, would anyone in the right mind answer this DM? So if you answer, ask a reasonable question, Nick will answer your DM as will I.

49:10Dave:Thanks again, Nick. Yeah, thanks. Appreciate it. And thank you all so much for listening to this episode of On The Market. We'll see you next time. The right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. At Blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50 ,000 five-star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals. Free samples. Zero pressure.

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