A Silicon Valley Satire That Feels Uncomfortably Close to Reality

21:38Kara Swisher:And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you're just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process, so you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

22:11Kara Swisher:support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Groons if you're looking for a health goal that you can actually stick to you might want to check out Groons Groons is a simple daily habit that deliver real benefits with minimal effort their convenient comprehensive formula packed into a snack pack of gummies a day this isn't a multivitamin a greens gummy or a prebiotic it's all of those things and then some at a fraction of the price and bonus, it tastes great. Gruen's ingredients are backed by over 35 ,000 research publications. While generic multivitamins contain only seven to nine vitamins, Gruen's have more than 20 vitamins and minerals and 60 ingredients, which include nutrient-dense and whole foods.

22:49Kara Swisher:That includes six grams of prebiotic fiber, which is three times the amount of dietary fiber compared to the leading greens powders and more than two cups of broccoli. It's a daily snack because you can't fit the amount of nutrients Gruens does into just one gummy. Plus, that makes it a fun treat to look forward to every day. Kick off the new year right and save up to 52 % off with the code CARA at Gruens.co. That's code CARA, K-A-R-A, at Gruens, G-R-U-N-S dot C-O.

23:25Kara Swisher:Think Verizon is expensive? Think again. Anyone can bring their AT &T or T-Mobile bill to a Verizon store today, and we'll give you a better deal. So bring us your bill. Walk in, run in, pogo stick in, teleport if you can. Ride on the back of a rollerblading yak, or fly in on the wings of a majestic falcon. Any way you can, bring your AT &T or T-Mobile bill to a Verizon store today, and we'll give you a better deal on the best network. Based on RootMetrics' best overall mobile network performance, U.S. second half 2025, all rights reserved. Must provide a very recent postpaid consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal.

23:54Kara Swisher:Additional terms, conditions, and restrictions apply. billy your co-star of course is trying to figure out how to get that way uh your co-star sarah goldberg plays a therapist to tech ceos it's a little like uh the the sopranos right that relationship dr melfi and and soprano um her name is dr joanne felder their fates become intertwined after duncan blackmails her um without giving any way talk about the power dynamic between those tech billionaires on the show and the professional class i thought you nailed like That's the one thing that you always sort of focus in on the billionaires. But there's a whole series of enablers that live around them.

24:30Kara Swisher:And they're really interesting because they're barely seething. You could feel that from them. But I remember being drawn into one among the Google founders of the chiefs of staff of various people fighting with each other. But the chiefs of staff were the ones fighting with each other on behalf of the billionaires. And literally, they started dragging me. And I'm like, you need to get away from me. I don't want to hear about your stupid chief of staff beefs, essentially. But talk a little bit about this relationship, because that dynamic is well done. First of all, I just would love to say Sarah Goldberg is a fantastic actor, and every day working with her has been an absolute treat.

25:06I'm sad she's not here on this trip, but God, she is fantastic. I can second that. Yeah, she's wonderful to work with. You know, for me, I think the people in your world, if you pay them enough, they're going to tell you everything you want to hear. That's correct. That's one thing. But then it's funny that for some reason, Silicon Valley has made the importance of these billionaires the top peak of what people have to pay attention to. And it's just made up rules. Everyone in that valley are making shit up. And so for some reason, that's where the money is. The people around them are also saying like, oh, this has to be important because they're making money doing it.

25:46And so that is a perpetual cycle of just bullshit on top of bullshit on top of bullshit.

25:51Kara Swisher:You do a lot of like drinking different elixirs and things like that and then throwing them at the assistants who keep bringing you things, whatever you happen to ask for, which is really very funny. Of course, of course. Yeah, you're really good at it. Oh, really? You'd make an excellent billionaire, yeah. Thanks. I wish. Yeah, came very easily to him. That's not true. Is there anyone you were focused on that you see publicly? Yeah, just look at the valley. Again, as an artist, as an actor like you like to I like to see the things I love about people and I love hate about people and I make my own melange that's like the the gift of acting I think is having the freedom to create these characters and build all the kinks and weird things and the unique qualities that they have so yes of course it's based off people out there and then it's a melange of the ideas I incorporate myself so there's also a Zach Galifianakis character Carl Bardoff he's fantastic wonderful by the way.

26:49Kara Swisher:He's a tech pioneer, a former idealist who made money off of spam, ultimately, which just hurts because he did. And everyone knows it, but he tries. And he's filthy rich. He's still miserable because he thinks he's underappreciated. Carl tells Joanne in therapy, where's our parade? All I see is pitchforks and ingratitude, which is a great line and just angry about it. He's like a really mean Steve Wozniak. I don't know who else is. And Steve Wozniak is not mean by the way what does he represent to you because there is a class of early valley yeah that is so wealthy that they've lost all perspective of everything and at the same time they're one of the things that's always i try to communicate is the victimization they feel is so profound um i've had so many people say you're so mean to me and i was like you need to get a dog or you need to speak to your parents about hugging but it's not my problem and so talk a little bit about that the victimization zach's character carl bardolf is he's actually the only billionaire in the cast billy's character is wants to be um and i i think that part of that desperation to get to that class is what drives our billy's character and so many of the others but but carl's landed there with spam um and he's embarrassed about that he doesn't like being Yeah, he's also about legacy, which is also very important to these guys.

28:15Carl is stuck between being aware of the bullshit and also wanting to be a part of it.

28:26Kara Swisher:Yeah, he needs relevance. He needs relevance. He's desperate for relevance. He does, but at the same time, he knows that that's an absurd notion. And so that sort of, that split, that splinter in the brain creates in Carl, and really played brilliantly by Zack, this kind of, you know, this need to fill the hole. Yeah. And he thinks that maybe Duncan could be a unicorn. He's very attracted to Duncan. He's very attracted to Duncan. And wants to kill him, essentially, at the same time. But he's never met anyone as relentless as him. It doesn't matter how many times you knock him down, he keeps popping back up like an inflatable clown that you punch.

29:04He just keeps coming back up at you.

29:06Kara Swisher:And actual punches, actually. And he does actually, yes, there's some punching involved as well. But, yeah, he's somebody who understands that back in the day, we all talked about when we were making this sausage, making the world a better place. And we all, all the billionaires kind of come to a fork in the road and most of us go Dr. Evil. Right. And he's not comfortable doing that. He's not ready to do that. But he also really wants to be in the club. Of relevance. Of relevance. The next thing. As we're writing season two right now, which we were just greenlit for season two. So we're very excited about that.

29:45Thank you. Thank you. We find out the backstory of why he doesn't feel like he's in the club. what the incident was that caused him to not feel like he was, you know, part of the gang, the, the, what we call God Mountain, the figures of God Mountain. And, uh, and it's very, very small and petty. It is.

30:08Kara Swisher:It's amazing. And still angry. I was, I, I'm in, I'm in Washington now and they've followed me there. Um, because they can't get enough of me. And I ran into one of them, one of these people, well-known name, and they came up to me and they like they're in with Trump now. Right. and they go yeah it looks like we've won and I looked at him I said but you're still an asshole and they crumble I still had him what do you think that change of that idea there was a time when Silicon Valley started that they kept the separation from the government they figured out you can buy things I think they had a real disdain especially like Bill Gates was always bragging he didn't have lobbyists and then they realized especially as they moved into things that were more analog, like cars and things like that, that, oh, wait a minute, we disdain them, but we can buy them.

30:59Kara Swisher:And Trump is the ultimate coin-operated president. So as I know, so... In the Michael Lewis one... It's just quicker. Sam Bankman-Fried, there's a moment where Sam Bankman-Fried is like, oh, this is actually very affordable. Buying a politician... It's affordable. You can do it with us. And Trump's explicit about it. Like, give me the money, you get a pardon. Give me the money, you get to stand in front of the... It's very easy. And I think they privately, they insult him constantly. And just so you know, Kara, I'm like, get the fuck out of here. I'd rather talk to Marjorie Taylor fucking Green than you.

31:30Kara Swisher:Because at least she believed in him. She actually did. Not any longer. She's still terrible. So just ask her about trans issues and then you'll stop loving her so much. You could have made Duncan the CEO of a food delivery app or social media. but it's data mining what's happening here. It's this godlike omniscient idea, which has been around for a long, this idea, which they have now, they really do. And I think you articulate that really well. You're making a point about privacy, obviously, or total lack of it. And that started back with Scott McNeely, there's no privacy, get used to it kind of thing.

32:08Kara Swisher:Talk about what that means, why that's such an important thing, because that runs throughout this show, this constant surveillance. And I talk a lot about surveillance culture. It's obviously very key in China. Here it's for more selling you shit. But eventually, when you have an administration that feels treacherous, it could be problematic. It feels really problematic. Talk a little bit about that. So yesterday on our panel that you did with us, Rob Corddry, one of the actors in our show, told you about something that was very real that happened with all of us, and that was one of the characters in a later episode who works at Cupertino, she's telling her room full of employees that are all, you know, young, in her 20s, you know, you know not to accept cookies, right?

32:55Yeah. And they all go, no, I don't really know that. Right. So, and we all kind of looked at each other like, we didn't know that either. Right.

33:05Kara Swisher:Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not afraid to say it. So, so that was a, that was a big conversation with all of us like oh shit like so so really I personally for in this I'm coming through that like going to like do my parents know that every time my mom gets on to shop does she know that she's what she's giving away and the truth is no people don't know what they're what they're doing so that's a big lens also again to bring up the kids again and we get into this a little bit in the season two, which we're, there's a writer's room up now for it, which is, I didn't grow up with social media and I'm really glad I didn't, you know, like imagine if every single thing you did could be broadcast to the world, right?

33:50It's just a different time we're living in now and there needs to be a different level of protection that we are not offering right now. So we kind of just want to just from a very sort of like in the ground, like, do you know what you're signing up for every time you click that button? And the answer is no. So that's kind of one of the things that's important to us.

34:11Kara Swisher:So early in the first episode, we see a billboard for a company called Spookle. The names are really great. Yours is hypnosis. Hypnosis. Too much knowledge. The names are fantastic. Yeah, thanks. You could call a company that, actually. But the tagline is, you agreed to this. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, truth is, we agreed to this, to be honest. Yes, we did. So, Billy, when you're preparing for the role, did you lean into that uncomfortable truth, we agreed to this? And you articulate that later. Because on some level, we have accepted the terms and conditions. Because you do lean into it as a character, which I suspect you don't believe what you were saying.

34:51Kara Swisher:This guy really says, too fucking bad. Too fucking bad. But I think he also has such a need or desire. His want is so grand that nothing can stop him. Any steel door is going to be knocked down either with a pickaxe, a blowtorch. He's going to keep fighting through it. But he never thinks it's a bad thing. You really do deliver on that, that he never questions. I think a lot of the other characters do know what they're doing is vaguely evil. Yes, I think it's a mindset Duncan has is like, no, I'm doing this for you. It's what you need. It's the medicine you don't need. I'm giving it to you. Don't worry.

35:29I'm going to make your life better that you don't even know it. So that's a dangerous person, in my opinion.

35:34Kara Swisher:Absolutely. He's terrifying, actually. I was just going to say, I mean, I think that it is in the end of the season, and I don't think I'm giving too much away. Duncan does basically confront all of Silicon Valley at a conference that Kara did not host. I would never wear those chunky glasses, but go ahead. But there is a sense of you all already, they're angry at him for basically, he's going to market people's personal data, commodify it. And they're angry at him for what is really going to happen is a disruption of their profit center, which is us. and that's the thing when i when i first went up to silicon valley one of the things that i asked about was what should this guy what's this company and i didn't get the answer but i then said what about data and they're like oh yeah that's evergreen that's not going away right and then especially with ai especially with ai and then i did more research into and the truth is it is how they make their money is off of us through advertising how they sell to third parties all of that stuff.

36:47And so if there's a guy that comes along and is going to sort of pull back the curtain and say, this is what we're doing. This is what we're doing. And you guys, you're such hypocrites. You're already doing this. You know when women's menstrual cycles are, you know when to sell them sweatpants and when to sell them stilettos. Like that's what, that is what they're doing. You're already doing it.

37:10Kara Swisher:I'm just explicitly saying, I mean, there's one, Sam Altman, as I said, we see the future where intelligence is a utility like electricity or water, and people buy it from us on a meter. And of course, the intelligence comes from, which is an astonishing thing. He also talked about, he went on to say intelligence needs to become, quote, too cheap to meter. And of course, he also said that it takes a lot of energy to raise humans. So what's the problem with data centers, which is unusual coming from someone who just had a baby. But that's another, we're not going into that. But when you think about that idea, this sort of, Walt Mossberg named them rapacious information thieves 15 years ago on stage.

37:52Kara Swisher:He said to Sergey and Larry, you're rapacious information thieves is what you are. And just this week, Grammarly was stealing me. They were selling me to people without asking me if it was okay by pulling in all my stuff. How do we not agree to this, Gina? What is the, we do agree to this for convenience, as you noted. It's really a trade of ourselves. We are the product for convenience of a cheap free map or a dating service or a piece of information that we actually paid for in the first place. Yes. Yeah. You know, going back to Duncan's first company that he had, which was called Fafa. You know, we hear a character go, yeah, I bought my first Subaru on Fafa.

38:41And I thought, you know, there was a moment when it really was that, like, you know, it really was something that, you know, candles and canoes and shit. Yeah. We have another character, Anushka, who is the Cupertino executive, say, OK, great. We can get Q-tips delivered overnight. But really, what have we done? What are we doing? We actually go there in one of those scenes and we have someone saying exactly what you're saying, which is let's take this moment and know the world we're living in. and it's like, but really, what have we done?

39:13Kara Swisher:Right. What have we done other than we can get shit delivered in 24 hours, really? You know, and that's a question. That's really a question. Less than 24. Yeah, and it's also, you know, did we do anything that we set about to accomplish? Are we a more tolerant society? Of course not. Did we do anything positive for our kids? Provably no. Did we, you know, help the environment? No, these data centers are running more than a city. Right. I'm going to talk about the business, the larger Hollywood business in a second. But one of the things that's most poignant here are the kids. I happen to know a lot of these kids that you're depicting.

39:53Kara Swisher:And I feel for them. And a lot of them I actually, some of their parents aren't talking to me anymore, but the kids are. Just FYI. and I went out with one of them and one of their parents took a took an ugly turn I would say and he asked me he's 16 years old and we had dinner and his mom asked me to have dinner with him and he goes what do we do I said here's what we do when your parent when your dad dies we're going to take the money and give it to the Sierra Club that's what we're going to do we're going to do good things like very much like the people who ran the gas companies the Rockefeller Foundation I should turn around.

40:30Kara Swisher:It's like, you have an opportunity to shift it into something better, like that kind of thing. But the kids, I think, are the key to this entire show. All the kids and the way they're hurting in ways. That scene, there's a scene where they're at dinner, which is devastating as they're not paying any attention kind of stuff. So that, to me, is the heart of the show. I agree, yeah. And it is, you know, one of the main characters is this kid Orson, kind of based on me i grew up in a house with two psychiatrists and i could i could hear them yeah um and uh but he in in our story he he moves from baltimore into this bubble where everyone is optimizing their brains and their bodies and he is an awkward pubescent with IBS and the idea of like, can we come up with a bet, you know, some, somebody who is so genuinely human, genuine, you know, his corporal, uh, self is betraying him in this culture that is basically saying, Hey, you could take this, you could take that, you know, uh, you can, you can be a better person mentally and physically and seeing it happening all around.

41:48and there really are literal billboards for, I'm sure.

41:52Kara Swisher:No, that's what my whole series is about. None of it works, but you're going to die in the end. Just plot spoiler for my series, but you're all going to die someday. And thank goodness, too.

42:07Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

42:21Kara Swisher:Support for this show comes from Odoo. There's an endless supply of software out there that promises to streamline your workflow. That may be true for a specific aspect of your business, but if you need one app for accounting, one for inventory management, another for sales, how streamlined can your workflow actually be if you have to be the middleman between them? Odoo says they're the answer you're looking for. The only business software you'll ever need. Odoo can be your one-stop shop for CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. Plus, it's super customizable and easy to use out of the box.

42:53Kara Swisher:And the best part? They say not only can they replace multiple applications, but they say they'll do it for a fraction of the cost. Whether you're just starting out or already well on your way to scaling, Odoo wants to help you put the clutter aside so you can do what you set out to do when you started your company. Thousands of businesses have made the Switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.

43:24Pepsi Prebiotic Cola, an original and cherry vanilla. That Pepsi taste you love, with just 30 calories and no artificial sweeteners. Pepsi Prebiotic Cola, unbelievably Pepsi. Spring Fest is heating up at Lowe's. And for a limited time, we have the extra big deals you need to impress guests. Get your outdoor space ready and save$50 on the select Cobalt 24-volt blower kit. Now$79. Plus, save$80 on the Char-Broil Performance 4-Burner Grill. Now$199. It's springtime, and our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Valid to 413. While supplies last, selection varies by location.

44:09Kara Swisher:I want to move to the industry in general because it's also affecting all of you. All of this, what you're depicting here is what's happening. The rest of us are being pulled around by the nose by this industry. So I just had Matt Bellany on the podcast, who's a journalist, very good journalist. He told me the biggest question in Hollywood is, will I lose my job? For a lot of people, the answer is yes. Actors, we'll see. At least in the short term, you're okay, Billy. Thanks, thanks. Not for long. But there's a lot of job losses. Billy, first talk about, you've been working as an actor for 20 years.

44:45Kara Swisher:What do you think the next 20 years is going to be like with AI and other, what is the top of mind for each of you right now, the mood you have? The mood I have is... Sometimes, always? Rarely, never. It's a line from the... All I could relate it to is kind of like the music industry, weirdly. I think of like the idea of like being in touch the original idea of Napster or like all these things is to have access to all these beautiful programs or songs I would say and then slowly over time you realize these artists that were creating this music couldn't make it anymore because the money never made it to them they couldn't sell an album and I think it's happening in our industry where like you used to be able to do DVD sales or or have part of the VHS sales and you had back and you could support a life as an actor um because of this technology and like i applaud amc to not having a tech company supporting them they're doing it against all this shit um today today today yeah but you know i hope they keep strong um yeah they're just stealing all the pot and not giving the resources the people that are actually creating these pieces of work and these pieces of art and that that scares me what do you think about when the tech companies are buying which i wrote about many years ago they're gonna this is the next thing their health care in this um well if they're gonna organize it properly we already know like ai has the ability to if i have a bottle in a scene and if they're gonna show this movie in like thailand they could put whatever product out in thailand is the best-selling product in my hand at the same time shouldn't that uh performer or people that created that show get a cut of that profit yes yeah they should um you won't i don't know who's fighting for it i want to but yeah that shit scares me what if it's hitler beer you don't even know say in it too i think it's just on grok and they're not doing very well but go ahead um well i came up in uh 90s independent film in new york in the miramax world which is a whole other podcast.

46:57And at that time, we were working with, you know, lots of filmmakers that were auteurs, and we shifted from film to digital in that time. And that was a huge conversation, right? What does this mean? This is not real filmmaking. This is not, this is, we're going to, this is going to die, we're going to die from this, right? And, you know, I'm a creative producer. I view my job as a producer of bringing other people's stories, helping them bring their stories to life. So I kind of saw at that time that, you know, there's a, as any innovation, especially within the creative industry, there is a reluctance to change, right?

47:42Like, this is how film is made. We need to carry cans around and we need to, you know have it with our hands gradually everybody accepted it and they accepted it because some of the old guard like Scorsese and Coppola started saying no this is great this is this is a new democracy for filmmaking this is now everybody can do it it's not just this specialized thing for you know a certain group of people not anyone can be a filmmaker so we found a silver lining then, which was then shooting a phone on my phone. I can be a filmmaker. I can be a kid making a film in my backyard in anywhere in the world, right?

48:22I don't know what that silver lining is yet for this, what the phase we're about to be in. I believe we will find one because we always have. As creative people, we've always found a way to hold onto the stuff that's most important, to keep telling the stories, to keep putting it out there. But we have to do that. And we do it together. We find it together.

48:43Kara Swisher:Jonathan? I mean, are you, there's, look, tech companies are going to own these things. We don't know how AI is going to transform Hollywood. We've seen what happened. I don't know if you've watched the Doge staffers. It's really disturbing to watch them. They're these kids who use ChatGPT to cancel over$100 million in humanities grants without any reason, just because. They were doing searches and replacements, essentially. Yeah. What is that? How do you think of it as a producer? I would be worried if I were you. Yeah, sure. I'm warning you. No, first of all, I feel incredibly fortunate to be able to be making this show and to be working.

49:23A lot of my friends are in trouble. The amount of shows that are being made is reduced just because attention spans are going elsewhere. Maybe that's the natural flow of economy and art, the format being adjusted as it always has over time. I do have some faith in that storytelling is not going to go away. We've been doing it for thousands of years. I don't expect that we're going to stop. I think that the desire to see a story that plays out for more than 60 seconds is also not going to go away, although it will be diminished. It has already been diminished. Attention spans. I mean, one of the most frightening articles that I read recently was how film schools are having a difficult time getting their film students or paying to go there to watch a full feature film.

50:20They just, they can't. Books, same thing. What's that? With books. Oh, with books, for sure. That's been going on since I was in school anyway. But my refuge was the movies. And, you know, two, three hours in a movie was a fantastic place and way to spend my time. And that is a difficult thing to get people to do.

50:44Kara Swisher:Especially when you can minimize it and do it quickly, as you say, point people to it. Although I don't think AI could write lines like, cheaters never lose and losers, they never cheat. and information is not insight. I thought that was one of the best lines. Thank you, yeah. And going back to succession, I don't think any AI could write, you are not serious people and have it mean so much. I think right now AI can do a procedural pretty well, especially something that's been around 20 seasons. Yes, they're not particularly original. 20 seasons of Law and Order, I'm sure that that can be replicated.

51:22I'd like to think as a viewer and as a fan of storytelling that most people at some point after there's a I'm sure there's going to be a fed I'm sure there's going to be something that comes out there the way it is now in music where there are actual AI celebrity singers and songwriters if you can call it a writer there's going to be something that comes out that is going to have that you know AI, the newness of that. But at some point, when you're being asked to emotionally invest in characters and story, do you really want it to be written by a fucking computer? I don't.

51:58Kara Swisher:I don't know. I don't. I think that we have to acknowledge the, and this is, I think, in many ways, the real thesis of this show is that we are losing touch with our humanity. and that no matter how good they get, they're only going to get good because they are absorbing our experiences and then spitting them back, as Mr. Olvin said. It does get better. In this series, I create a bot of myself, a 3D bot, and it gets better and better. I hate to say it, but at first it's creepy, and then it's like I had a real conversation, just like you do in this show. And I was like, wow. And they're like, what do you think about me?

52:44Kara Swisher:I said, I'm trying to figure out a way to kill you. But that's your instinct. And I think that that's the instinct of, perhaps it doesn't come out as bluntly in others. I did kill it. You did? That's exciting. That's exciting. I want to see that. I made it. I am the creator and the destroyer. So, last question from me. I'd like to know if you think this series is hopeful, dystopian. What word would you use to describe it? Billy first, then Gina, and then Jonathan. Oh, man. What word would I describe it? I can't encapsulate everything that's in Jonathan Glatzer's mind and the talent that has been putting this show together in one word because like human life, you can't...

53:32How do you feel doing it? for me it i love it it's it's every every day waking up and showing up to set was a gift uh the people i work with the language that i get to speak and it was always a gift it was a feat and i feel the responsibility like the as an artist is like you are supposed to put the mirror up to reality and like i'm not saying we're good or bad or whatever but this is what's out there and this is how we see it. And it's your choice as an observer or someone who digests it to interpret it your own way. That's the point of art. It's like, I have a feeling you have a response. If we can connect on an emotional level out of it, that's the magic of art.

54:17And I don't think an AI model can paint a photo that will touch my soul, like someone who could just draw a line, like fucking Picasso, you know? It means something. Hopeful. Hopeful. The kids in our show are hopeful. They're redeemable. And that's hopeful. By the end of the series, they're not going to be their parents, I don't think.

54:44Kara Swisher:That's absolutely true today, I have to say. I also struggle to come up with the word, and hopeful is not it. I'm sorry to say. That's why we're great together. I know. I know. It's true. It's true. You know, hope to me is, I think I said to you yesterday, you know, the old line that satire is the protest of the weak. And it is. I am weak. And I don't have the ability to change society. But if we can just remind people of what is unique about our species and how much of that is being diminished by this tech and remind them that they're going to die. As you say, the brackets of life that we have for millions of years understood fairly soon after we're born that we're going to die, that's what gives life meaning.

55:49And it is something that I would love for them to understand, that their own fallibility is a gift.

55:56Kara Swisher:Which was interestingly the message from Steve Jobs when he did that speech before he died about that. We talked about death as the great, it's actually a big theme in this, how it shifted, like as you say, the fork in the road, which is important to understand. It's everything. It is, and that I have a great allergy to certainty. I think anybody who claims Absolute knowledge of any particular topic is You know about to step in a bucket of shit. Yeah, and they just don't know it and you often do and he often does your character Not you don't get I don't know what you do in here really myself as well.

56:36Yeah

56:38Kara Swisher:Anyway, this is a wonderful show. I truly I I watched it all last night. It was wonderful. And I have to say, I don't want to spend another minute with these people, not these people, but the people in tech. And I really felt for them. And I'm furious that you made me feel for them in any empathetic way because it's just pathetic with a prefix. Anyway, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining me. Jonathan Glatzer, Gina Mangachi, and Billy Magnuson. Thank you so much. Thank you. Audacity premieres on April 12th on AMC and AMC+. Thank you. Thank you, Cara. Thank you. Thank you.

57:22Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Wassell, Michelle Eloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Catherine Barner. Our engineers are Rick Juan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trachademics. If you're already following the show, we're glad you agreed to this. If not, all we see are pitchforks and ingratitude. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On With Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On With Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

57:59Kara Swisher:We'll be back on Monday with more.

58:07Kara Swisher:Thanks again to Odoo for supporting this show. Odoo wants to be your ultimate all-in-one, fully integrated platform to handle everything. Seriously, everything. Inventory, CRM, accounting, HR, and much more. No more shopping around or settling for expensive services that can only handle a fraction of your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Amen.