Audie Cornish and Ari Shapiro on Friendship, Feeds and Their New Podcast

18:44Kara Swisher:Although it often degenerates into anger yells on cable, particularly. As you know, I have a thing about that, like the idea that conflict has to be idiotic conflict, right? And to your point, you and I have talked about this as well, that sometimes there's, let's just say there's some people performing in those spaces. You have noted that. They don't exactly have real conflict with each other. They are actually friends, and they perform this wrestling-like thing. We're not doing any of that. This is like a pretense-free situation. So you're not going to the White House next week? I mean, the MMA fight, like, I'm into it.

19:19But it's more like, you know, Ari and I, like, we just, it's not worth it. It's like we both covered bigger things. And all we want to do now is, you can even see our posture is like sort of more relaxed. and we're kind of like, hey, like, we're going to break character for a bit and just talk. And we do disagree vigorously about things, but it's not personal and it's not existential. And the things we're talking about are not make or break. You know, I'm thinking about like in our latest episode, we were getting into protein maxing and the idea that I think MAGA is very gender coded. I think the MAGA movement emphasizes not only gender conformity, but gender extremes.

20:00And Audie was pushing back saying, okay, but the Kardashians. And I was like, wait a minute. Are you claiming that politics and entertainment have bled into each other? What a shocking concept. You know, like those are the kinds of disagreements that we're having with each other.

20:14Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

20:25Kara Swisher:Hi, I'm Maria Sharapova, host of the Pretty Tough podcast. Each episode, I sit down with high-achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology. This week on the show, clinical psychologist and founder, Dr. Becky Kennedy, and I unpack what it really means to raise kids today. I think parenting is the most important job in the world and the one that has the most impact on your world and the world. It is nonstop. Check out Pretty Tough, new episodes on Wednesdays. You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app.

21:01Kara Swisher:Support for this show comes from Delete Me. Have you ever thought I should really be doing something to protect myself from stalkers, scammers, and hackers, but you're not sure what? Here's what to do. Go join DeleteMe.com slash Kara and enter the code Kara. You get 20 % off Delete Me. Delete Me removes your personal information that's being sold online. In the age of AI, we're all especially vulnerable to scammers using your personal data that's floating around on the Internet against you. Have you looked at yourself online and found your home address, phone numbers and the name of your family members?

21:34Kara Swisher:It's unsettling. I have done this. It is very unsettling, especially when a lot of it is inaccurate. But it's grouped together in such a way that seems vaguely threatening and also very troubling in terms of your own safety and your own privacy. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me. Now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20 % off your Delete Me plan when you go to www.joindeleteme.com slash Kara and use the promo code Kara at checkout. The only way to get 20 % off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash Kara and enter the code Kara at checkout.

22:10Kara Swisher:That's joindeleteme.com slash Kara code Kara.

22:18In the span of a decade, Ben Shapiro built The Daily Wire into a conservative media empire. He produced hit podcasts that bit at liberal excesses and documentaries and lectures about the founders, the genders, the gospels. He peddled polos, hats, candles, provided a home for deplatformed conservative stars like Matt Walsh and minted stars like Candace Owens. Let's put a pin in that. The Daily Wire even has kids programming a judgmental puppet named Zoodles. Zoodles. Zoodles. Who shares Shapiro's load-bearing eyebrows. This year, though, the empire showed signs of collapse. The Daily Wire's YouTube videos are down from millions of views to the lo-fi figures.

22:55Web traffic is plummeting. And recently, Shapiro laid off 13 percent of his employees. Asked by The Washington Post what had happened, Shapiro accused other conservatives of click-whoring by embracing radical Islam, theorizing about the evils of Winston Churchill and mocking the widow of Charlie Kirk. The kids still got it. On Today Explained, the fall of Ben Shapiro. Today Explained drops every weekday afternoon.

23:44this is coming after the summer of Weapons and Sinners. And when we were discussing this in our pitch meeting, Audie was like, are you a horror fan? And my answer is, I'm a fan of good movies, whether they are horror or rom-com or action or superhero movies. So I'm really interested in this horror moment. That might make it onto a future episode, but that's one of the things that I'm thinking about a lot. And also, horror as allegory. If you think about all of Jordan Peel's movies from Get Out to Nope to Us, like, horror is such a good way of talking about how we live now, I would even put zombie movies in that category, the 28 days, 28 years later.

24:18Anyway, this is how my brain functions when I get off on it. Right, and you can see the trends among people. But the difference is I watch horror movies. Right. I watch them too. You're naming the big ones. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I watch the good ones. That's like listening to rap music and talking about Macklemore. I mean, you can.

24:35Kara Swisher:It's not the same. Yeah, yeah. All right, so, Audie, what about you? What is some of the ones that won't make it, for example? Oh, actually like a great example is the um the time that someone got put in the signal chat with the white house right the atlantic and jeffrey goldberg that's like a great story that i think in a typical newsroom is kind of already doing and like are there jokes to be made about like texting and all that stuff maybe but there's no greater story there you know what i mean that we can say to people and here's how this intersects with your life no it's just a bunch of dumbasses It's kind of silly season, right?

25:13And even little kids know how to text and how to add someone to the group chat. So no lessons learned. Whereas something like the horror movie story is also a story of like, independent creation. You know, are we going to see a 90s style era indie boom just because they can do it on YouTube? Okay, we're about to find out and horror is the right vehicle for that. But it's over and over again, we're mostly reverse engineering. We're mostly being like, why is this a thing? Like, why? We know that it is a thing. Protein is a thing. But untangling the MAGA masculinity diet culture. GLP-1s. GLP-1s. Podcast health ecosystem.

25:53Right, RFK Jr. Like, untangling that Gordian knot of things that made it viral.

25:58Kara Swisher:Although I have to say, I did like catching snakes. I did. I did. Yeah, great. You're in luck. I know. You're in luck. He's always providing capital C content, you know? One of the things that we ask ourselves in every pitch meeting is, is there somewhere we can go with this beyond LOL? Just saying. Look at this. What does this say about our life? What does it say about our culture? What are the levels that we can dig into and ways that we can explore this that'll be meaningful and value-added to people beyond this is on your radar? Or is it meaningless? Is it like, the snakes is meaningless. It was just entertaining.

26:30Kara Swisher:So Ari, the main goal of the show is to transcend the cultural silos that social media algorithm put us in. And our feeds look so different because they're tailored to us. Talk a little bit about this because one of the things, as you said, you're a white queer man. I can see that. Audie is a black straight woman. I can see that. But you're also both quote-unquote media leads who are around the same age and live in D.C. There's a lot of overlap too. So talk about that idea of trying to transcend cultural silos. Yeah, I really used to enjoy in the All Things Considered editorial meeting when you had like 20, 30 people of different backgrounds sitting around the table talking about what they thought was interesting.

27:06And going into those meetings, I would graze widely to try to find stories that weren't breaking through my algorithm. And one of the things that I really enjoyed about making this show is going back to that idea of actually going out and looking for stories and not just waiting for things to cross my path in my social media feed, but looking at local and regional newspapers and magazines and industry websites and trying to figure out what's going out there that might not be on my radar. But also, we deliberately structure the show so that there's an opportunity for people to join in and tell us what they are seeing and give us a pitch of something that they are trying to unpack and understand.

27:43Because we want it to be a dialogue. And we know that we're not seeing the same things that our audience is seeing.

27:48Kara Swisher:Now, there was a great piece in New York Magazine recently about how a lot of hype on social media is manufactured. Companies are paying people to generate clips to generate the impression that everyone is engaging with someone. This is someone I've known for a long time. So talk about, Audie, you're thinking about genuine enthusiasm versus Astor turfed hype. Yeah, I'm obsessed with this because I'm doing this kind of show to jailbreak the algorithm. I hate the For You page, my kingdom for an actual search that works. I don't like the word feed. Like everything about the way they have structured social media in the last 10 to 15 years bothers me deeply.

28:24Kara Swisher:You know, the only word that they say user, what's the other industry that uses the word user? Drugs. Drugs. Exactly. Like all those, I do the same thing. I'm like, yeah, feed, user, like just everything about it. Content. It's just, they hate us. Like I really just think tech companies hate us. They think we're suckers. And I don't like that if your eyes flick towards like a parakeet puking, now you're going to get 5 ,000 parakeets puking. I despise this. You said in a recent address at Tufts that you didn't think we were benefiting from the algorithmic information distribution system. Did I say all that?

29:01Kara Swisher:You did. That sounds very smart. Deeply nerdy. Again, I was trying to be professional. I was trying not to be like, I hate these dudes. That's my job. Me and the Pope. That's the Pope and Kara Swisher's job. I just want to say, the Pope is lifting a lot of my lines. I don't mind that. But it's like we're not geese whose livers need fattening. They just pump all this stuff out, and it can be manipulated. Even now, the whole conversation around clips, and to me, I'm like, okay, I've seen this movie before, and guess what? We are one dude-with-a-shake conversation from someone being like, actually, that's not the thing anymore.

29:41It's a little bit like if anyone out there is old enough to remember The Wiz when The Wizard is like, the color of the day is X. This is how they treat us as consumers and as people who make the content. And part of this show was being like, let's really mine this and figure out if this is a thing, why it's a thing, and then if it's a thing.

30:01Kara Swisher:All right, making a pop culture show, talk about the challenges when it feels like our sense of shared culture has evaporated, right? Because there was a shared, well, not really. It was kind of white guys on the Upper East Side of New York telling us what was interesting. Look, it's a challenge, but it's also an opportunity. You know, like, if there's a show that everybody is talking about, there's a little bit less to say than if culture is fragmented and you're able to illuminate something for a person who might not be in that conversation. All Things Considered was a show that in its name, it had to appeal to everyone and it had to cover the waterfront.

30:37And we're making something now that is, I don't want to say curated, but it's okay if it's not for everyone. And it's okay if we're talking about something that is not your culture, that is not in your viewfinder. And so, yeah, the monoculture may be dead, but maybe there's an opportunity in that that a show like ours can take advantage of.

30:58Kara Swisher:Audie, do you think the monoculture is dead? Or was there one in the first place? I do think there was one at one point for sure. I do think it's dead now, but I think the pursuit of it is so strong because people still have a desire to connect to each other. So there is still the sense of like, I'm not just going to watch this reality show reunion. I'm going to film myself reacting to it, upload it, and it's going to join these, you know, stream of other sort of pop culture salmon. And like, we're all going to, we're going to force a watercolor moment, even if that's not how this thing is built anymore.

31:32So I do feel people still wanting that. And also I respect people's time. Like I don't have time to be read in and all this truly random stuff. And it's really nice. I want to make something for someone like me, who's like, You're busy. You care about culture. You generally know stuff. But do I have to know every little thing about every little thing? I'm not trying to be in hot take culture. And so I think we're choosing a lane for people who don't want to know every single thing, but definitely don't want to be left out of the conversation. It might be a small thing, but I really like that our show is an edited 30 minutes.

32:09because there are a lot of shows out there that are really sprawling and there may be an amazing 30 minutes in that 90-minute episode. Yeah, who has the time? Yeah. Like, who has the time? A lot of people. I know, but it's just like, there's a million podcasts to listen to. I only listen to Kara Swisher podcasts. There's not a lot of time. Because we do a tight 30. Because we're doing a tight 30. No, just like listen. Never. And then be like, we're good. I wash the dishes. Okay, we're good. I walk the dog. Amazing. Never a tight 30 for Scott Galloway. I'm sorry.

32:41Kara Swisher:It's a long 60 at least, if not 72. I mean, it's a vibe. Yeah, yeah. I do, you know what I do? I don't know if you guys will start doing this, but I measure how much percentage he talks versus me. I send them to him. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I send him word count. And you send it to him? No. Of course I do, of course. Why would you invoke that level of sort of competition comparison? No, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. My theory about Kara is Kara treats men the way men treat women. So occasionally she has to remind him, I am not your actual work wife. Yes, exactly. I'm a person with ideas and stop talking.

33:21Adi, I am going to make you a promise that I will never measure how much you and I talk relative to each other in our show. Well, that's how I know that you're gay. Yeah, exactly. That's correct. Because you have a regard for women.

33:34Kara Swisher:Yeah, exactly. And their voices. So every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Yours comes from your former colleague and host in NPR, Steve Inskeep. Let's listen. Hi there, Adi. Hi there, Ari. Congratulations on Engagement Party. I have a question for you that grows out of the idea of engaging people and also relates to the work that I try to do. And it's this question. how are you going to deal with what I think of as the destruction of coherent thought? And I don't just mean short attention spans, although that's part of it. What I mean is the device on which you'll be reaching people, the device on which I try to reach people, also has a tendency to make it impossible to think things through.

34:19It's hard to have the right perspective. It's hard to understand what's important and what's not. It's hard to have a line of logic. That is the world in which we live. That's something I struggle with all the time in the way that I try to present stories. And so that's my question for you. How do you mean to deal with that? What are your thoughts about it? Thanks.

34:39Kara Swisher:Ari and then Audie. Steve is just such a great guy. Extremely NPR question. Extremely NPR question, but also just so nice to see Steve again. Nice to see him around the building. I miss him. I think the answer is that you can't change the ecosystem that we're living in. You have to try to work within it. And so in our 30-minute show, we are going to have deep analytical conversations about important topics, even if those topics are related to pop culture. But we're also going to have TikToks and Instagrams, and we are going to have clips, and we're going to be in the chat, and we're going to be in the comments, and we are going to engage with the fragmented attention economy because that's what the attention economy is right now.

35:21And if you're not working with it, you're out of the conversation. And so I think you have to kind of straddle these two worlds. I mean, as Steve and others on NPR do every day, where you're creating a space for the kind of discourse that you want to have, the kind of deep, fact-based, analytical, thoughtful content. And also, you're recognizing that some people just won't find you there, and you need to go find them where they are as well. Right. So it is the oxygen, essentially, what you're saying. Audie? I'm in a different place because I've spent the last couple years, instead of fighting this trend, just simply literally going with the flow.

36:01So like I've done hits on TV. I now have a morning show. I've done social stuff. I've done YouTube only stuff. I mean, Kara, you and I have piloted stuff. It's like I'm constantly just going to where the audience is and just be like, hi, have you thought of this? Hi, have you thought of that? instead of being like, how can I figure out like them coming to me and taking the time? Like I'm just done trying that. I'm just trying to be in as many places at once. And I always make sure everything on the plate is edible. So even in the jokey thing, there's, we've smuggled in an idea, you know what I mean?

36:36Even under the joke. And I think that's how I'm approaching it. Whereas what Steve's describing is, of course, far more relevant to my life as a morning show anchor doing political news. Like, literally this morning, I had one of those conversations where I said to the guest after, I don't want people to hate you for your worst take. I want them to hate you for your best take. So when I present the question to you this way, it's not a gotcha. I'm trying to figure out, like, what's the through line? What's the logic? And so all that work I'm doing, it's like I'm kind of doing it elsewhere. This is not the show for that, you know, and I don't feel the pressure to do that here.

37:15Can I follow up on something Audie said, which is everything on the plate has to be edible. I think on all things considered, the enjoyment of the experience was almost an afterthought. And on engagement party, it is the point. If we're not having fun, if we're not enjoying ourselves, the audience won't be there. We shouldn't be there. We're missing the boat. And that is so essential to what we're doing now.

37:37Kara Swisher:So what you're saying is you're putting spices on the vegetables. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. No, that's the thing. I don't think that's right. I mean, there's no vegetables here. You know what I mean? Like this, it's protein. I enjoy a vegetable. I don't like the metaphor. Well, I mean, let's think about it this way. Kara, you and I did do a pilot of something. Yeah. Where we and someone else, who is also very smart, hashed out a bunch of fun ideas and made jokes. And I never once looked at Karen and thought, wow, she's really given us vegetables here. Right, right. Even though you completely brought all of your knowledge of the tech industry.

38:07Yes. Every—

38:08Kara Swisher:I think one of the things I used to tell people that used to work for me when I ran All Things D and Recode was, look, there's a lot of hot dogs out there. And hot dogs are delicious. I like a hot dog. but you're not going to win by having a better hot dog. You have to have something else because it's just a fucking hot dog. Stop making fucking hot dogs, essentially. And at the same time, you have to also be very promiscuous, is I think something I've told you many times, is going where the people are and stop being so fancy about it. But there is a line between going with the flow and playing the lowest common denominator or playing into what social media platforms want, which is, I don't know if you'd agree with me, but this is hard to resist.

38:51I do, I do. I'm just not sure I'll get there since, as we talked about, I don't even know how to swear in public yet. Right. It's just sort of like— I got your back. I'm sure, yeah, exactly. I got you covered. I'm sure we'll get there, but it's taking a minute. If anything, just, yeah, being like, is it okay to make a hot dog or is it okay to make something else? Is it okay to make something other than vegetables? It's like I'm still giving myself permission to do that.

39:13Kara Swisher:Right, but I mean, Ari, you're talking about this idea of lowest common and honor is not what you're going for, right? It's not who we are. Like, if we're talking about being our most authentic selves, if Audie wants to talk about love is blind, it's because she actually has really meaningful insights into what love is blind says about the moment we're living in. And I want to hear those insights. It's not because we know that love is blind is trending and that's going to get us hits. Right. We would not be good at that, actually. We'll be back in a minute.

39:48Kara Swisher:Pregnant athletes are not fragile. Yeah, that's right. I said pregnant athletes. I am Rabinatr Son, VP and head instructor at Peloton, and I PR'd my deadlift the week before my son was born. I was also a, quote, geriatric type 1 diabetes pregnancy, and so I know there can be a lot of fear and uncertainty about what is healthy movement when you're pregnant. That is why I got trained in pre - and postnatal fitness. And this week on my podcast, Project Swagger, I am sharing some key guidelines and the story of how I stayed active during my pregnancies. Listen now at Project Swagger.

40:27Buy Now, Pay Later is everywhere. And honestly, we need to talk about it. 60 % of Coachella goers put their tickets on Buy Now, Pay Later this year. You can even pay off your DoorDash order in installments now, like your sushi. So this week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm breaking down exactly how these companies are making money off of you, why missing one payment can flip your interest rate from zero to nearly 36 % overnight, and the uncomfortable truth about what it really means when you need to split a$200 purchase into four payments. Plus, I'm answering your questions, including what to do if you're already in over your head.

41:02Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com slash YouAreRichBFF.

41:08Kara Swisher:Let's talk about podcasting and what sets it apart from traditional media. At NPR, Ari, and also you, Audie, most stories and interviews are cut down to about three to four minutes. Maybe you get a little more time for a big-name interview. Podcasting is very different. It's a very different media. It kind of rolls out. You can talk for hours, and people tend to stick with it. Talk about how you look at the difference between podcasting and what you both were doing. you know obviously social media is degrading our attention spans but podcasts are bucking that trend people do tune in they like the narrative and I'm firmly of the belief the reason they tune into our show is because it's about a relationship it's not about what we talk about it's our relationship and it's the constant narrative of that relationship with using news as the vehicle Cara you basically could run a pledge drive I mean it's pretty much the same conversation right And, you know, and I think that in radio, that is literally how we approach things.

42:02I know people are talking about, you know, NPR, like it's dry or something, but like it was a cultural phenomenon for a reason. It spoke to people's cultural interests. But it almost, that conversation, what you're saying doesn't feel relative to the, where we are now. You know what I mean? We've been in this so long that we've now seen the thing we grow up with become the new thing. You know, like all of a sudden you do want things long again? Great. You know what I mean? But now we can make the choice. Instead of something being imposed on us because this is just what it is, we can decide what we're offering people.

42:33And to your point, yeah, maybe people will be like, I don't want 30 minutes. I want three hours. And it's like, great. But for now, I think it's okay in a world where you can do anything to actually make a decision about what it is you want to do and what it is you can do well.

42:48Kara Swisher:Right. So, Ari, how do you look at sort of why people are attracted to podcasting? Is it, as Audie's noting, everything old is new again? I think there's just something so intimate about listening. And I realize that most podcasts are now viewed rather than listened to. Are they? I still have questions about this. YouTube is the biggest podcasting platform. Yeah. But I know from my years at NPR that people feel like they have a relationship with the voices that are in their car or their kitchen every day. That was something that I didn't take lightly at NPR. And if our podcast engagement party has a future and an audience, I think it will be because people want to spend time with us.

43:24That's correct. As you said about your show with Scott, like, the ideas are important, but the ideas are almost secondary to people just wanting to spend time with you and hang out. And what was more parasocial than NPR nerddom? You know what I mean? Totally, totally. Yeah. It's not like being a fan of the New York Times or, you know, Time Magazine or something. People knew the person on a beat. People would come up to you and be like, have you met Sylvia Paglioli? It's like, how do you know that? Sylvia Paglioli. See?

43:54Kara Swisher:From Nicosia, Cyprus. Susan Stamberg used to say that if she sounded sick on the air, people wouldn't just send her a get-well-soon note. They would actually deliver chicken soup to NPR headquarters. Like, that was the kind of relationship that they had with her voice, this person they had never met. And Susan Stamberg and her cranberries. Her famous cranberry. The fact that you even know that. Exactly. Pretty much says it all. We are not foreign to the idea of the relationship. In fact, we're here because we want the relationship to be closer. Right. And there were things that we did in recent years that didn't put us closer.

44:27And now that we have the choice, we're doing that.

44:29Kara Swisher:Right. Absolutely. The parasocial nature of it. But I collect my hate mail. I save it. I think it's a sign that people are paying attention. You've always been so weird about this hate mail. I love the hate mail. I call them. I call people who hate me. I'm like, hi. Wow, that's a prize. Yes. That is a gift. I'm not really trying to do it. I call them hi. And then they're really nice. They're always... I don't know. Maybe you guys have less racialized hate mail. You know, there's some people I don't want to call. I got some, you're a giant kind of thing. I mean, I'm not trying to be special. There's no oppression Olympics.

44:57I'm just saying, I don't want to know them. Right now, if you want to write me and say something mean, enjoy your life.

45:03Kara Swisher:Oh, I love when someone makes a lesbian insult. I'm like, hi, it's a lesbian. I will not be reading. Well, again, you're the person who's like ready to fight. Ready to fight. Which I learned from reading your book. Yeah, that's true. One of the things that someone did come up to me that was very sweet. It's usually nice, by the way. It's never hostile, which is interesting, is when an old lady crutched up to me and is like, I just want you to know you're my friend, but I'm not yours. And I was like, that is correct. Thank you. And that was the whole encounter. No, that's amazing. And I was like, I'm good with that.

45:39Kara Swisher:So, Audie, last time— Wait, can we have a moment of silence for this amazing person who said this to you? Yeah. And let's just spread that message throughout the land. Like, when you're a keyboard, a warrior-ing, just know. Right, just know. Chill out, okay? It's fine. Let's listen to the elders on this one. Right, exactly. So when you had a podcast three years ago, Audie, when you launched the assignment, you said you worried whether anyone would listen because, quote, and this is what you said to me, the world does not need another person with an interview podcast. How do you stand out? Is it the relationship?

46:11Kara Swisher:Is it what do you think are the key factors? I am very proud of what I accomplished on the assignment because we ended up being nominated for Webby's like literally with you. You know what I mean? And like you had an audience and do have an audience that was orders of magnitude larger. But we had a, to me, a hard won audience of like real people. You know what I mean? Like it's not like we could go out and buy a bunch of bots or something like that. It was like these people really listened and they listened all the way to the end. But in that case, it's because it was service oriented. They like spending time with me.

46:43They like the way I delivered news stories. But I also was bringing them someone that they never had heard from before. They had never heard from the doctors who provide gender-affirming care. They had not heard from people who had actually survived a police brutality stop. They hadn't heard from the paparazzi out of it, like, reporters out of L.A. who understood why Harry and Meghan were a thing. Like, it was a service. I'm very nervous, right? Like, now I'm suddenly just being judged on, like, whether or not I'm a good hang, right? Like, that is a different schematic. The most perfectly named podcast of all time.

47:19Yeah, and I get, I'm certainly nervous about it, but I'm nervous about everything, you know? And I think that at a certain point, you have to take a leap. But we're not two celebrities interviewing each other, which is a genre. Sometimes I'm like, it's a club, we're not in it. And yes, there are people who want to be a fly on the wall for that. But I don't want to listen to a celebrity interview where the celebrity has final cut. That's for someone, not me. I don't want to be trying to catch every joke and reference between two people who genuinely don't know we're there. Like, are conducting the conversation as though nobody else can hear it.

47:59And we're not there to just randomly bring people on. There's not going to be interviewing for interviewing's sake.

48:06Kara Swisher:You're not having guests. We will occasionally have guests. We will, but we won't be on the guest treadmill. I know, but let me just say, we got rid of guests on Pivot. We talked to listeners, and they're like, we don't want your guests. This show is also going to evolve. Like, we're figuring out what it is as we go, and I like where we're starting from, but it may not be where we are six months from now. Yeah, you might have a ritual sacrifice. Maybe a ritual sacrifice. That was going to be a surprise. Oh, now Audie knows. Everybody, the monthly slap Scott Jennings, I mean, figuratively, not literally.

48:35Kara Swisher:Do you see how this woman tries to get me into trouble? Okay. Speaking of which. Bringing up people I've never even heard of. Like, what is she even saying right now? You slapped him so hard. I did not take that back on that show. Not really. No hand in his face. But that encounter was so fantastic. Well, here's the thing, Garrett. Think about that. That was a trillion clips ago. Like, there's no. I remember it like it was yesterday. I felt that was the finest you Audie has just Ari just so you know she has an ability to slap the dickens out of white guys all I request is that if I'm on the receiving end take off your rings first oh my god she won't slap you no it's a certain kind of guy and I've seen her do it in private I've seen her do it in public and it is so beautiful every person has their limits you are so good at it I'm very polite we were in a meeting and she did it in this thing.

49:28Kara Swisher:And I was like, yes. Like, it was so enjoyable and so perfect. And they didn't know what to do. I won't say who it was, but it was exactly who you want her to slap. Anyway, let's end by talking about the state of media and the news business. This is where we, this is the hard question part. Karen, this is the stuff you know. Why are you asking us? No, no, no, no, no. You can answer these questions. It's about where the state of media, you all work for media and you also worked in public radio. Yeah. Two big areas, right? We all work for CNN. I'm a contributor. I don't know if Ari, what you are.

49:58Kara Swisher:I'm a contributor, too, yeah. As of now, yeah. And Ari is. So right now, you don't have to talk about the middle of the Paramount and David Ellison's takeover. And James Murdoch is also buying parts of Vox Media, including the podcast network, Vox.com, and New York Magazine. I was very—I was in the middle of that, which is just—I know a lot about that. And I have said I'll leave CNN if the merger with Paramount goes through, because I don't want to work for certain people. I am not going to put you on the spot in that regard. But how do you navigate this major media acquisition and consolidation time?

50:29Kara Swisher:How do you look at it as a bigger topic? Because it is part of culture at this moment. Very much so. So Ari, why don't you start and then Audie? Well, to me, it's part of the larger story about the decline of news and journalism in this country. I think having more journalists and more news outlets is better. Full stop. I think every major and minor city in the country should have a newspaper. It's even better if there are two newspapers. In too many places in the country, that is not the case. I think competition is good for democracy and good for media. And so, you know, whether you're talking about a corporation owning most of the local TV stations across the country or whether you're talking about a newspaper laying off hundreds of journalists, I think the trend lines are moving in the same direction.

51:11And it's it's not great for journalism and it's not great for democracy. Go ahead, Audie. I come at this having survived a merger. Like my introduction to corporate media. From leaving NPR, right? Yeah, it was quite literally, you know, the sale and the purchase of CNN by Discovery.

51:32Kara Swisher:Oh, so you missed the AT &T one. I missed the AT &T one. And before that, AOL. Exactly. There's so many. So I hopped on the train with a lot of warriors who have been through it. Right. And it has made, I took that one really hard. because I just was like, what am I doing? Why did I come here? Is this industry dying? Like, what a mistake I made. But like, NPR is struggling. This is struggling. Like, MS Now went through a transition. Like, everybody is struggling. And what gives me hope is that the audience sees it, recognizes it, is pissed, and is willing to talk about it publicly. Whereas it's not some like back page business thing where people are kind of like, who cares who owns what?

52:15It's like, oh, wow, actually, a lot of people seem to care who owns what, and they're talking about it.

52:21Kara Swisher:So that's actually a good thing. It is actually. People are quite aware. And they seem willing, even people who wouldn't talk before are willing to say something publicly. Yes. I mean, I saw this go around in circles around Oscar time in the Hollywood press, where it was complaining about who owned all of the trades. Variety, the Hollywood reporter. And how did that affect the campaigning? That's like TikTokers were talking about that. You know, just being like, oh, don't believe this campaign because the papers are owned by this and blah, blah, blah in this studio. And so I'm not here like weeping and wailing, basically.

52:53It's like full speed ahead, doing the work and connecting with the people who you want.

52:57Kara Swisher:Right. And you feel like you'll be able to do that within that. I don't even know, Kara, but I do know you've given me some hope about that. You can. Like, I'm not the person I was three years ago where I was literally like, how can I do anything? How am I going to pay a mortgage? The landscape has changed. The world is littered with little cable news hosts who have created other lives for themselves. They're actually doing rather well, a lot of them, you know. Yeah, exactly. So I'm not Chicken Little, you know. It's pretty much like, okay, well, let's do this. Whatever's coming next, great. That said, Chicken Little.

53:31Kara Swisher:Yeah, you're right. Chicken Little didn't end well for Chicken Little. Anyway. Were you trying to remember? You were like, actually, Chicken Little was Cassandra. Like, no, it was still bad. Right, it was still bad. So both of you, I'd love you to comment on public media. because NPR just announced buyouts. I've talked to a lot of people there after President Trump and Republicans rolled back more than a billion dollars in federal funding. They are getting some funding from very wealthy people like the bombers and et cetera. But even before that, listener numbers and sponsorships were dipping.

53:58Kara Swisher:What's it need to do to become self-sustaining? Because part of me is like, well, good. Now they'll have to figure it out, right? And then not rely on the fucking government or whoever. Like it's long past time because this is a war that's been going on since I started covering media a lot, like, dozens of decades ago, essentially, it feels like. So talk a little bit about how you look at the public media system. Yeah. Ari, you have to take this, because for me, it's been a couple years now, and I wasn't there for the real rock of the boat. Yeah, I was there when the government funding was cut.

54:29That had nothing, I should reiterate, to do with my decision to leave NPR. That had been a long time coming. But I think it's going to be a rough couple years. And after that, I think the future could be really bright for NPR, because it's one of the few news organizations in the country that is only answerable to journalists. The challenge, listenership to the radio is going down, sponsorships, as you mentioned, going down. I think NPR has to evolve in ways that have nothing to do with government funding and everything to do with where and how you reach your audiences. I really think Catherine Marr, the CEO, is incredible.

55:00I'm very impressed by her, and I think she's the right leader for this moment. But I think NPR is going to have to evolve a lot in the next couple years, not only to envision a financial future without government money, but also to envision a future where they're able to reach people in ways that are not turning the dial to 88.5, as much as I love listening to the radio dial. That, I think, is the big existential challenge. I'll only add to that. Like, if there's one thing where public media people are well-positioned to do, it's ask you to subscribe, which is pretty much the environment right now.

55:33So it's really more everyone else has moved to our model. And I think, yeah, NPR is like, it's working it out like everyone else.

55:39Kara Swisher:Right. Is there one thing you would do, each of you, if you were running it, if you were Catherine? I will just say that the seeds of what to do are already there. We saw something like the Tiny Desk concert that hit at the right time, in the right medium, in the right way. They have the building blocks for doing things. That's a really good point. I think the secret, and this is not a secret, everybody at NPR knows it, is that we have this network. I'm still saying we, of hundreds of local stations. And there is a bureaucratic bottleneck between the thousands of talented local reporters all across the country and the national network that takes some of their really outstanding work and shares it with the nation.

56:20Figuring out how to get rid of that bottleneck, I think, would be a huge liberating public service opportunity that someone should figure out how to take advantage of.

56:29Kara Swisher:I like it. I like it. I just think you're going to have to find a billionaire. That's what I think. Well, that too. Unfortunately, a nice billionaire. and then if he goes crazy, you've got to cut him loose. Anyway, as they want to do, I'm always on the lookout for good billionaires. And then they always go crazy in the end. Except for Mackenzie. Kara, please tell me Mackenzie's nice. The wives of the bad billionaires tend to be great. They are. I love Lorraine Jobs. Or the ex-wives. Or widows. I love Lorraine Jobs. I think she's amazing. I recently was talking to her. I love Gates, Melinda Gates.

57:02Kara Swisher:I'm French. I'll be on Team Billionaires X. I love Ann Wojcicki. Let's make a First Wives Club follow-up that is the First Wives of the tech billionaires. I would really watch that movie. And Mackenzie, when I knew her, she's very shy, was wonderful, always wonderful. Yeah, there we go. His changes have to do a lot with a lot of things. A lot of things. He was never nice, though, let's be clear. It's no lady's fault that he's such a jerk, Jeff Bezos. Anyway, two more questions. Audie, during your dress at Tufts, you also talked about AI and journalism, the inevitable AI question. How do you find this article?

57:37I find everything. We're stalking you, Audie.

57:40Kara Swisher:My producers stalk people. No, there's a student newspaper very happy right now. I know. Okay. You said, as journalists quote, our job at this point is not to be the voice of God, but to listen and analyze and interpret and share AI is not going to be good at that. How do you see the role of journalist or reporter evolving as newsrooms start to rely on it? I mean, you can't talk about culture without talking about AI, obviously. especially AI-generated content. Yeah, of course. But I watched your show and I watched you talking to an AI version of yourself. Yes, I did. Didn't do it well. Not yet.

58:10And I don't even think in two or three years it's going to do it well because you are fundamentally an unpredictable person.

58:17Kara Swisher:Yes. And I think human beings do have the capacity still to be unpredictable. And I feel like AI is unpredictable in predictable ways. Again, maybe that'll change. It'll be so amazing. but I just don't think it's an accident that no matter how many new media come along, we all find a way to talk to each other directly. Right, I think you're absolutely right. Ari? I have stopped trying to predict what AI is going to do for the future because I think it's a bigger transformation than any of us have ever lived through in our lives and we were both alive before the internet came along and so anything that AI can't do today, I assume that it's going to do tomorrow and I think we have to pay attention and evolve with it and I'm every day finding new ways that AI is changing my life and opening doors that were not open before.

59:05And that's going to touch everything, including newsrooms. I can't say how, but I'm not naive. I'm not Pollyanna-ish. I'm also not chicken little about it. I just think as journalists, we're uniquely suited to track and report and narrate and question and convey what we learn. Yeah, that's a fair point. I was also speaking to students, in fairness. So these were people who were their freshmen, their sophomore, and they are still going into journalism. And so they're really like looking at me being not like, why? You know what I mean? Because they still want to do it. Right. But they're kind of like, will there be a place for me?

59:38Kara Swisher:Right. You wanted to be the speaker who didn't celebrate AI and they went, yay, Audie. Oh, yeah. I didn't know that was a thing. It was a thing. I was like, no, this is coming for you. And there are bosses that are going to have you training it to take your job. Like, yeah, it's grim right now. That's why they liked you. You were on the right side. Yeah. Like students having none of it. Yeah. But you're not stupid for wanting to do this work. That's how I was approaching it, you know? So I have a last question. You end the show with what you call touch grass segment, where you talk about something important in your life happening offline.

1:00:11Kara Swisher:Let's end on that. I will start. I just bought a paint by numbers set. Oh, wow. Okay. Tell me more. Well, then. We were in Manhattan. We were in a weekend in New York this weekend. And we went to a Blix to get some of my daughter draws, and she loves to draw. And so we got her some really good paper because she's actually getting quite good. And my youngest son and I were looking at all the toys because that's where we got to bring him to. Something he can hit something with or throw or a car or some sort of thing, which is not in Blix, by the way. And I saw a paint by numbers thing that was beautiful.

1:00:45Kara Swisher:And I used to do it as a kid. And I bought it. I was like, I'm going to paint. I used to like it. Have you started doing it? No, I just, I have it as a little paintbrush inside. And instead of the old days where you have the paints, they're on the paper itself. They've embedded the paint on the picture. And then you send it as a postcard. And each of you are now going to get a postcard, obviously, from me, Paint by Numbers. And then the second thing I did is I was in the rest stop on the way home. And do you remember where they would have pictures where there were hidden things like a spoon? Oh, yeah.

1:01:16Kara Swisher:Hidden pictures. There's a whole box of hidden pictures. I bought a book of hidden pictures because I used to love that. And so I'm curious how the paint-by-number experience rewires your brain. Right. Very much so. I think very much so. So I bought those two things. And I don't know why. I just had this moment. I'm trying to picture you having the patience. I know. Well, I think that's why you do it is to build the patience, right? I know. I used to do it all the time. I used to do all those things. So I'm like actually trying to picture it. I'm trying to come back to a time when I was patient enough.

1:01:46Kara Swisher:I used to love paint-by-numbers. Well, it's like I'm not in shape enough to exercise. No, the reason you exercise is to get in shape. That's correct. I'm not patient enough to paint by numbers. That's the reason you do it. You're going to be getting the first postcard that I'm going to make. It's going to be beautiful because, you know, because I'm not artistic, but I enjoy it. All right. What is each of yours now? You start, Audie. For me, it's funny you guys brought up paint by numbers because I often make these little kits, activity kits for my kids. So that if we go to a restaurant or if we're in the car, that's what they get handed.

1:02:15They don't get handed an iPad. I never pay for the cellular anyway, so it wouldn't work. But one of the recent things I found for the kit was a little game called Tangos, which is a little geometry game that has a bunch of squares and triangles. Oh, I remember this from when I was a kid. Exactly. You're supposed to form them into various shapes to solve the puzzle. And it's the kind of thing where you put it in front of a kid and they're like, oh, what is this? It's not magnetiles. Magnetiles. Yeah. Oh, magnetiles are huge in our house. But all of a sudden there's silence, right? And you look over and they're there like trying to figure this thing out and it is like travel size.

1:02:56So shout out to tangos. I don't know who still even makes it, but that was my touch grass moment. All right. All right. For me, it's the garden. You know, I started gardening in the pandemic. I have a vegetable garden and especially when, you know, it was rainy all Memorial Day weekend. And it's nice to be able to say like, well, this is good for the garden. And you actually see the garden respond to it. And we're in this moment of transition now from kind of the spring crops to the summer crops. So we're taking out the, like, hawkerite turnips and the carrots and the beets and the peas and putting in the cucumbers and the tomatoes and the zucchini and the peppers.

1:03:29And so for me, just, like, getting outside, hands in the dirt, touching and feeling and smelling and tasting, like, it's a very sensory experience. That's very grounding for me.

1:03:40Kara Swisher:So you do watch all those Instagram videos on gardeners, hot gardeners. Of course. Yes, hello. You have a literal touch craft. I like it. But that's on screen. We're talking about off screen. That is the finest thing to come out of online is all these hot gardeners that do hot gardening. Even I like it. Like I'm just saying, I'm like, you're a hot gardener and I appreciate that. If engagement party doesn't work out, I'll start a hot gardening TikTok. I know. Anyway, I appreciate it. You guys, I hope everyone listens to engagement party. It seems like a happier version of Scott and I, which I appreciate.

1:04:12Kara Swisher:It is a happy marriage. Give us time. We'll get jaded. Listen, but the model works. The model works. So you give me your review. You always tell me the truth. Well, you know what I say? You've got to be useful, interesting, and you can't replace it. And it's hopeful. That's one of the great things, I think, that I've found out. And I think that would be my advice is be a little more hopeful than you think. Because I think people are tired of people not getting along. even when they disagree. I think that's true. So anyway, good luck. I'm so excited. Thanks, Kara. I'm excited for you to beat us at the Webbys next year.

1:04:43Kara Swisher:You won't, but I appreciate your efforts to do so. I'm excited for Audie to slap someone down. I'm looking forward to that. What is this? It's the finest thing in the land. Oh, it's so good. It's so good.

1:04:59Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Michelle Eloy, Catherine Millsop, Madeline LaPlante-Duby and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Catherine Barner and Ruella Roof. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. And our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're touching grass or maybe painting grass. If not, your feed is clogged with puking parakeets. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

1:05:37Kara Swisher:We'll be back on Thursday with more.