Bernie Sanders on Beating Authoritarianism, Billionaires & AOC

19:43Gilded Age, exactly. But you got something different now. You got in these guys, in Peter Thiel and in Musk and these other guys, they got a philosophy. They really do. And I talked about it a little bit in my remarks today. They really do believe. You know, I mean, every corporation wants tax breaks. Every corporation hates unions. Fine, we're used to that. These guys are different. In fact, I think I was reading something the other day. Peter Thiel was actually using the expression antichrist, a religious term. If anybody suggests that these big tech guys should not have unlimited power, that you want to control them.

20:23It's not that I disagree with you. You're wrong. It's you're antichrist. We are the kings. I mean, it is kind of interesting, the similarity to what we had back in the 1770s, where these kings really do think God gave them their power.

20:42Kara Swisher:Right. So when you think about using that, when they make the argument, well, we made it through our own means and this and that. So how dare you think about either you or Elizabeth Warren doing a tax on us? It was our money. This is a capitalist society. Nobody makes it on their own. You and I are chatting this. There are a lot of people who developed the technology that we're using right now. You have people, workers there. I have my staff. Nobody does it on their own. Nobody goes to work if you're not on a road. Nobody, you know, gets information without zillions of people contributing. Nobody makes it on their own.

21:18They went to schools. You know, they had great teachers. But it's a philosophy. You can have a philosophy. I get it. That is their philosophy. It's mine. I don't give a damn about you. It is mine. I will do anything I want, and I don't want you to touch it. That's one way of looking at the world. That is Trumpism, a part of Trumpism. And there's another way to look at the world and to say, you know what? I'm a human being. You're a human being. And to be human is not for me to say, I want it all, and I don't give a damn about you and your family. It's to say, you know what? We're in this together, you know?

21:55and I want you to care about the problems my family has and I will care about the problems that your family has. And we will work together to improve life for each other. That there's a level of solidarity as human beings. We share common dreams and I don't care about the color of your skin or where you were born. You want your kids to have a good education and be healthy and that's what I want for my kids and grandchildren. So we are looking at very strong philosophical differences.

22:25Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

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26:13Kara Swisher:Your rallies that you've been doing with Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez do hundreds of thousands of people in both red and blue states. You say the crowds are bigger than you saw when you're running for president. We obviously don't have official numbers for today's Neil King's protests, but these are large protests. talk a little bit of how you translate that into actual sustained opposition. I mean, I think it was striking to a lot of people of the crowds that you got. What is the next step beyond that? Well, let me just say it was striking because, you know, it's one thing you're running for president of the United States.

26:50You go to Los Angeles, you're going to get a big crowd. Nobody was running. I'm not running for anything. Alexandria was not running for anything. You had 36 ,000 people out in L.A., but it wasn't just L.A. You had 20 ,000 people out in Salt Lake City, 12 ,000 people outside of Boise, Idaho, for God's sakes, 30 ,000 people out in Folsom, California, which is represented by a Republican congressman. And what we saw, we keep, you know, I have a pretty good political organization, and we keep tabs on these things. So we know pretty much who comes to these rallies. They sign up. About half the people came were Bernie supporters.

27:25Half the people were not. And you know what? There were a significant number of Republicans and a significant number of independents who were there as well. So the takeaway from all of that is that there are a lot of people, not just progressives, but some Republicans, independents who are very concerned about the direction in which Trump is taking this country.

27:52Kara Swisher:So that said, you were very open about the ways you feel about the Democratic Party had failed voters, as you just noted, in the working class more broadly. According to polling, the party has never been more unpopular, even though President Trump is also unpopular. You've said it's because the Democrats have abandoned politics and helped working families. But it's not like the Republicans have adopted those policies. Yet voters without college view favored Trump, as you know, in 2024 by double digits. There's a cultural component to MAGA's appeal that goes beyond policy. Why is there that conundrum?

28:25Kara Swisher:Is that they don't like either thing? That's a great question. That's a great question, Cara, that we don't talk about enough. Before I answer that question, let me tell you, as part of our Fighting Oligarchy tours, we didn't just go to big cities and stuff. I went to West Virginia, a state that I happened to love, really just a working-class state of very good, honest people. We had a town hall meeting. It wasn't attended by tens of thousands. 400 people came out. And it was an incredibly moving experience to me. You had working-class people saying, you know what? We don't have health care. We got to go hours to find a dentist.

29:09We got to go hours to find a specialist. Kids are not getting the quality education they need to make it in today's world. Decent, good people coming up talking about what is going on in their state. And while West Virginia, in fact, is poorer than many other states, you could say the same thing in Vermont and any other state in America. So this is what I think. I think that Trump wins not because people who voted for him, working class people, believe in tax breaks for billionaires or throwing 15 million people off the health care they have. Many of them will be Trump supporters. That's not what they voted for him.

29:47They voted for him because the Democratic Party has not given them an alternative vision. And in West Virginia, the Democratic Party, for example, doesn't exist. It's officially not existing. Used to. So there is no alternative. So your point is right. What I have said over the years, and say it very loudly now, is the Democratic Party has got to make a fundamental decision. And that decision is, do you worry about your campaign contributions from AIPAC and from the other billionaire super PACs, or do you come up with an agenda that speaks to the needs of the working class in this country? If you come up with that agenda, you will win back many of the working class votes who are supporting Donald Trump in my view.

30:35Kara Swisher:So one of the things that Trump is actually good at is he normalizes racism by delivering it to me as entertainment, like hateful rhetoric as show business, really. How can the left strip away that disguise to make the harm visible instead of letting him smuggle bigotry in through humor and charm, really? Karen, let's be clear, and I'm glad you raised that. You know, Trump, before he was involved in politics, was a very successful TV personality, right? He got a top-rated show. He was good. He's a good entertainer. And in many ways, his administration is a reality presidential administration where you have really talented entertainers from Fox television who know how to perform very well on TV.

31:20That is what they do. I'm kind of old-fashioned, and I think that the best way is to come forward with an agenda which speaks to the needs of working families. So, interestingly enough, you know, I was on CNN the other day with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. We did a town hall. And, of course, the Republicans are crazy, Bernie, lunatic Bernie, all that stuff. They attacked Alexandria. So they sent out this long press release attacking me. You know what they forgot to mention in their press release? What? Not one word about health care. These guys do not want to defend the big, beautiful bill, which threw 15 million people off the health care that they have, which studies indicate will result in the deaths of some 50 ,000 Americans every year.

32:19They don't want to talk about that. They don't want to. In Vermont, just the other day, people started getting their insurance notices. In Bennington, Vermont, you got a couple making$80 ,000, going to pay a quadruple increase, quadruple, in their health insurance. Half of their income going to go to health care. That's insane. My Republican colleagues don't want to talk about that. So what should Democrats do? Talk about it every bloody minute of the day. 50 ,000 people will die unnecessarily when you throw 15 million people off the health care they have. That's what you talk about. People cannot afford 50 percent of their income going to health care.

33:00Kara Swisher:So one of the things you do is blame Democrats' problems on billionaires, as you noted, and conservative influence they have on the party's policies and candidates. As you just noted, why Kamala Harris lost in 2024. for. That said, their support for Democrats may be fleeting. Salesforce CEO Mark Benioff, who previously donated to Democrats, recently said he wanted Trump to deploy the National Guard to San Francisco, although he's walked back those comments and seemingly - Who said that? I'm sorry. Mark Benioff. He runs Salesforce. OpenAI CEO Sam Altman has donated money to hundreds of Democrats, and he criticized Trump for years.

33:31Kara Swisher:Now he's partnering with him. Democratic mega-donor Barry Diller told me he wants people to give Trump a positive spirit, and he pushed back against what he called Trump derangement syndrome. On the other hand, we've seen a lot of pushback from billionaires like Lorraine Powell Jobs, who owns the Atlantic, and Ron Conway, another very wealthy person pushing back on Trump very hard and very vocally. Do you think the Democratic establishment is coming around to your view, given the sharp heel turn we've seen from some of these formerly friendly tech billionaires? I honestly, I don't stay up nights worrying.

34:05Yeah, about them. About what billionaire, But I do find it interesting, Cara. It's—again, I'm not an expert on this thing. I suspect you know more than I do. But Mark Zuckerberg, I guess he loved Barack Obama. They were pals, right? And Jeff Bezos, the nice moderate guy, Washington Post, blah, blah, blah, blah. Musk, I think, if I'm not mistaken, voted for Obama in 2008, right? He did. So what you're seeing now is the billionaire class going where the money is. And Trump has, let's be honest, you're a billionaire. Trump has been very generous and kind to you. He repays his friends. They help elect him.

34:48They support him. And these guys are making out like bandits right now. So, you know, it's fine. If there are decent billionaires who understand that we've got to fight to retain democracy, God bless them. That's great. But the future of this country will not rest on a handful of billionaires. arrests on working class people and the vast majority of people standing up and fighting for justice and democracy.

35:10Kara Swisher:But you did note that Elon Musk gave$250 million to help elect Donald Trump. It probably helped quite a bit. Should the Democratic Party be counting on wealthy donors anymore to raise cash? And what's the alternative? No, the alternative is, look, I mean, today, millions and millions of people came out. If you give those people and many who did not come out an agenda, a vision for the future, which says that in the richest country in the history of the world, it is not a radical idea to say that everybody should have a decent standard of living. You tell me, in America, should we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major country?

35:48Really? In America? Give people a vision, and you know what? They'll trip in 25 or 50 bucks to help your campaign. And you know what? Money is important. I'm a politician. You don't need zillions of dollars to run a campaign. You need a certain amount, and you can win. But that is, and then, of course, ultimately, you got to get rid of the Citizens United, which allows billionaires to buy elections.

36:12Kara Swisher:So he'll turn on billionaires. Just ignore it. Just say, good for them. If they want to contribute and play a role, that's fine. I mean, I appreciate that. I'm not, you know, there are a lot of decent people who happen to be billionaires. They think that democracy and truth is important. God bless them. But the future of this country depends on working class people standing up and taking on the billionaire class, which is getting richer and richer. Now, you tell me how it could be that with all of this new technology that we've seen in the last 50 years, and I want to talk about AI with you in a minute, you know more about this stuff than I do.

36:46But you tell me, how does it happen that over the last 50 years, an explosion in technology, worker productivity exploding. You got millions of workers who in real inflation accounted for wages are earning less than somebody in their place 50 years ago. And what's going to happen with AI?

37:02Kara Swisher:Yeah, well, we'll get to AI in a minute. But every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours. Hi, Senator Sanders. This is Jill Lepore from Harvard. Historically, most of the reforms that you endorse required pressure from third political parties, from the Free Soil Party to the People's Party to the Progressive Party. So I wonder whether it's really possible for the billionaire-funded Democratic Party to reform itself without pressure from a third political party. And I guess another way of asking the same question is whether, in hindsight now, looking back, might it have been more useful for you to have spent the last half century building a third political party instead of caucusing with the Democrats?

37:49Kara Swisher:Thanks very much. Well, thank you for your question. It's a good question. And my answer is that it is right now what we are doing, I am doing with my co-workers, are supporting candidates who are running as independents. You don't want to run as a Democrat. We are right now, Cara, working with literally thousands of people who are running. We're helping them figure out how to run for school boards, city councils, state legislature, etc. Many of them are running as progressive Democrats. Many of them are running as independents outside of the Democratic Party. Now, it's very easy to say, let's form a third party.

38:36Well, it's a great idea. And you have examples of it. the Green Party is a third party. Have they played an important role in modern American politics? Maybe to some degree they have. I would not say that they have been enormously successful. I don't know what they get, 1%, 2 % of the vote. When I ran for president as an independent in the Democratic

39:03party, I got millions and millions of votes and brought forth an agenda that millions of people were nodding their heads. And an agenda, I think, which has helped to some degree transform politics in America today. Would I have been able to do that running as a third party? So the idea about a third party is I'm not dismissing it, but it ain't easy. You need a lot of money to do that. You need to deal with some states who have very, very restrictive regulations. State of Vermont, you want to get a third body, pretty easy. Other states, not so easy. So the answer is, where we are right now, is I have made it clear.

39:44I personally will support and am supporting candidates who are running as independents outside of the Democratic Party. And if people are wanting to run as independents, taking on conservative Democrats, establishment Democrats, I will be there, given, you know, the nature of the race. So—

40:02Kara Swisher:But not a national political third party. At this moment, you know, I think it's rather difficult. And I think we are seeing momentum right now to transform the Democratic Party, some great candidates around the country, et cetera, et cetera. And when you talk about transform, one of the things that you run into all the time is Bernie bros who became Trump supporters. Talk about how you feel about that heel turn. because they seem to be turning back again. This is what I think. What Trump, and again, I think Trump has his mental issues. I think he's unstable. I think he's a pathological liar. I think his agenda for America is horrific.

40:43All right? So let me be clear about that. But he understands something that the Democratic establishment did not understand. The system, Cara, is broken. So, you go out. How's America doing? It's broken. Health care system, broken and dysfunctional. Child care system, broken and dysfunctional. Housing, who can afford to buy a house? No young person can afford to buy a house. Nutrition, our people are overweight. They can't afford decent quality food. Kids are doing drunk food. All right? On every basic level, the system is broken. And Trump, in so many words, he doesn't use it that way. He says, look, it's all broken.

41:27And the reason for it's the undocumented people. It's the trans people. That's why it's, well, it's crazy stuff. But he understands the system is broken. And what are the Democratic establishment says? Well, you know, I think if you make$48 ,392, we will be able to provide you with a program that gets you 14 % help on your health care.

41:52Kara Swisher:Is that your voice of a Democratic Party? In other words, they are tinkering around the edges. Everybody in America knows the health care system is broken. Right. There are 47 members of the Democratic caucus. I got 15 or 16 of them on a Medicare for All system. Why? Everybody knows that we have massive wealth and income inequality. How many Democrats have the guts to say, you know what? Maybe Mr. Musk and Bezos should start paying their fair share of taxes. So these guys tinker around the issues. They wanted a little bit there. And in 14 years, we're going to be successful. That's not what the American people want to hear.

42:28So Trump is tough. I'm going out there. The system is broken. I'm sending ICE agents over there. The military's going there. I'm doing this. I'm bringing these guys in. And people respond to that. Democrats got to be tough too. But they have got to take on not poor, undocumented people. Most of them will work at a hardship. They got to take on the goddamn oligarchy. That's what they got to do.

42:52Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

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46:35Kara Swisher:So, let's then talk about a lot of news items that are in this oligarchic area. As you noticed, you just mentioned AI. We'll start with AI. So, you're proposing a robot tax that would increase taxes on corporations that use AI to eliminate jobs. I just did an interview on the future of work of AI, and my guests pointed out that it would be incredibly difficult to assess what counts as an AI-related job loss since it's going to be incorporated into everything. It's sort of like electricity. So, talk about the practical implementation of a robot tax, and how do you think it should work? Well, look, a robot tax is one of the visions.

47:07And again, I don't want to claim to be an expert. All right, but this is what I, and please, you know more about this than I do. You correct me if I'm wrong here, okay? My understanding, which is right, is that the Musks, the Zuckerbergs, the Bezos, the Ellisons of the world are putting many, many hundreds of billions of dollars into AI and robotics. Is that correct?

47:32Kara Swisher:Yes, indeed. Okay. So the question that we want to ask ourselves is, okay, why are they doing that? Are they doing that to benefit the working families of America? No. Well, you know what? Between you and me, I don't think so. I think the reason they're doing it is they see wonderful opportunities to become even richer and more powerful. Okay, that's my view. So should the American people and their elected representatives begin to stand up to that? The answer is yes. Now, when you talk about AI, and again, I bow to you, I have more knowledge in this stuff than I do. Certainly one of the immediate things is the people that I talk to, and I've talked to some people know a lot about this, is they worry that many, many millions of entry-level jobs, of factory jobs, will disappear.

48:26Do you agree?

48:27Kara Swisher:Well, it's both robotics and AI together. Robotics doesn't get as much attention, but the numbers are huge in terms of improvements. Right. And we're just beginning to see robotics in this country. China is way ahead of us. So for a start, it's insane for the elected officials of this country to say, whoa, wait a second. You know, what the hell is going to happen when millions of people no longer have a job? All right. So I came up with some proposals. You know, I think attacks on robots is one. I'll tell you what I think is even more important. And that is if robotics and AI is going to increase worker productivity, which it certainly will, right?

49:12Kara Swisher:Absolutely. The benefits should not simply go to Mr. Musk and his friends. They should benefit ordinary people in this country. What does that mean? It means radical idea. You know, the 40-hour work week was established, I think, in the 1940s. You know what? Maybe it's time to do what companies and some countries are beginning to do, lower the work week from 40 hours a week to 32 hours a week without lawsuits. of pay. Okay. Maybe that is a proper response. Maybe we should be thinking now of giving workers more power over the companies that they work, a worker ownership of companies in large corporations getting workers and their unions on the boards of directors, et cetera.

50:01But I think I don't have all the answers to this. But I do think that this is a incredibly transformative and potentially destructive moment for working families, and we've got to respond aggressively.

50:16Kara Swisher:Not just working families, upper middle class. That's right. Okay. And then, you know, I'm just talking about the economy. And then you go to, look, again, you know, you go to the mental health issue. I mean, we have kids who spend their lives on the internet, and their best friends are somebody in a chat box. What are the implications of that for humanity in general? If my best friend is somebody on a chat box, really? If I don't interact with other human beings, what the hell is that about? What kind of society do we live in? So thus far, Congress has done nothing, I would say, less than nothing.

50:58Kara Swisher:In fact, given them all kinds of gimmies. Yes, I agree. How do you begin to pass any—I mean, Senator Klobuchar has tried, Senator Warner has tried. These never go anywhere. Look, this gets back to the basic issue that I talk about all the time. It's not just AI and robotics. It's not just health care. It's not just that we have a federal minimum wage of seven and a quarter an hour. Not just that we're the only major country not to guarantee health care at all. It gets back to the nature of our political system. So does anybody out there really think that the United States Congress in its totality is standing up and worrying about the working class, the middle class of this country, the future of America, our young people?

51:47Or are they more worried about getting campaign contributions from wealthy individuals?

51:52Kara Swisher:They certainly have tried, though. Was that not genuine? Because those bills just died. No, of course. Look, there are serious people. I do not hear me to say otherwise. So why don't they pass? Because they get paid off. The others who have to vote get paid off. So how do you break that logjam? Well, for a start, you rally the American people to get rid of the Citizens United Supreme Court decision, which allows billionaires to buy elections. If billionaires were not able to buy elections, you know how much time my colleagues spend raising money? A lot. Half of their lives are raising money. That's pathetic.

52:25They feel it's pathetic. Wouldn't it be kind of nice if we had a Congress that was responsive to the people back home, not spending their life raising money from wealthy people so they could address the real issues facing their constituents? So we need a political revolution in this country. If you're going to deal with the looming or the existing crisis that we're going to face from AI and other issues.

52:51Kara Swisher:For speaking, that conservative justice in the Supreme Court appear to be ready to finish gutting the Voting Rights Act. They may strike down the section that is guaranteed majority-minority districts. The New York Times analysis says that decision could strip Democrats around a dozen districts in the South, coupled with the gerrymandering fight right now, redistricting. We're facing the possibility of Republicans cementing control of the House. If that happens, what's the strategy? How do you overcome this, which would be a major structural disadvantage? Look, it gets back to, you know, maybe the beginning of this discussion.

53:23These are very disturbing and difficult times in American history. And at the end of the day, the only way out is going to be with millions of people, and we saw it today as a good start, standing up in every possible way, fighting back to protect American democracy and the needs of working families.

53:43Kara Swisher:So if they do cement that, there is no alternative, is there? Well, there are alternatives. You know, if the American people are rallied, there are, you know, the civil rights movement. Remember, you know, Dr. King and the others had to take on the racist governors. And senators. Controlled their police. And they ended up winning because they spoke to the moral sense of the American people. And they made it impossible for that type of segregation and racism to continue to exist. Can we do the same? I mean, we'll have to develop the tools as we go along. So we've seen Trump escalating his troop deployments.

54:26Kara Swisher:The DOJ also brought its first Antifa terrorism charges against two Texas men. We've seen indictments of former FBI Director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James, also Trump's former National Security Advisor John Bolton, though the case started during former President Biden's term as a support of career prosecutors. taken together, they don't feel like the actions of someone who believes the movement will be out of power in three years. How close do you think Trump is to succeeding at that? I mean, if you're fighting oligarchy, he's the ultimate oligarch, right? Correct? Yeah, he is a representative of the oligarchs.

54:58Look, on the other hand, what we are seeing today, I don't have the numbers in front of me, is maybe more people coming out in rallies against oligarchy, against authoritarianism than we've ever seen in American history. I can tell you that they're in the House of Representatives, doesn't get a lot of attention. It's not just Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. There is dozens of other strong, young, often people of color, progressives who are taking on the oligarchy back home. I can tell you that there are thousands of people running for office at the local level. So we're seeing a lot of very positive things happen in this country.

55:36But, you know, I share your concern that what we are taking on is a very dangerous president and a dangerous moment in American history.

55:44Kara Swisher:I'm curious why you don't seem to want to talk about Trump maybe trying to stay in power. Do you think that's a threat or not? Look, who knows what Trump will do? He is an authoritarian. He is a demagogue. Clearly, we know by forcing getting his states to gerrymander their congressional districts, he wants to stay in power. Another example, a woman from Arizona, Adelita. Yeah, they won't seat her. Yeah, he won't seat her. I mean, she will get seated, waiting, delaying that, perhaps because of the Epstein files. Look, there's no magical formula. The bottom line here is that we have got to mobilize at the grassroots level.

56:26Today was a great start. We've got to strengthen the trade union movement. We've got to get young people, working class people, senior citizens to begin to stand up and fight for the country that we can become.

56:38Kara Swisher:So let's turn quickly to the government shutdown, which is now in its third week. Speaking on MSNBC on Wednesday, Senate Majority Leader John Thune said that he offered Democrats a vote on extending Obamacare subsidies the party is demanding in order to reopen the government. You're not a Democrat, as you said, but you caucus with them. What specifically do you and others need to see for the Republicans to end the shutdown? Well, first of all, a vote. What does a vote mean? It's not only a vote. And then what happens in the House? And the president can veto all this stuff. What, to my mind, and I think the minds of most Americans, this shutdown is about is the possible collapse of our current health care system.

57:17I do not know how any member of the U.S. Congress can vote to throw 15 million people off of their health care. and, according to studies, allow 50 ,000 Americans to die unnecessarily every year. I don't know how, when people are struggling right now, we could allow people to see a doubling or a tripling of their healthcare premiums. So, to me, that is what the shutdown is about. And when Republicans—and Republicans don't want to talk about those issues. And that tells me that they are afraid. It tells me that we are winning this. It tells me we got to keep talking about it. When they come to the table and say, all right, we're not going to let 50 ,000 people a year die unnecessarily.

57:59We're not going to double premiums. Let's get moving. The House will pass it. Senate president has promised he will sign it.

58:06Kara Swisher:That's when it ends. Now, some of the things Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer warned about when he voted to keep the government open earlier this year are playing out. Trump is consolidating power. The administration is pushing for more mass layoffs, so the federal judge has blocked them for now. The president has held billions of projects in largely Democratic districts. Even if you manage to force Republicans to extend the health care subsidies and permanently, are you worried about the risks in getting this or is this still the right strategy? What do you mean the risk in getting it? Does all the things the Republicans consolidating power even more worth the health care subsidies themselves?

58:43Look, they would do that. What do you think? Trump needs a shutdown to lay off. We went through Doge. They don't particularly worry about the Constitution. They don't worry about the law. They will do what they want to do for their own political purposes and their own economic purposes. But I think right now, let me just mention to people who may not know this, the essence of what's going on right now in the shutdown is you've got majority rule in the House. They pass their budget. In the Senate, you need 60 votes. That's what has been the case for a very long time. And what that is about, it requires, it means that there must be bipartisan negotiations.

59:25That's what it means. Republicans up to this point have refused to negotiate. What they have said is our way or the highway. Take it or leave it. And what Democrats are saying, appropriately so, sorry, that ain't good enough. You're going to have to sit down with us. These are our demands, and you're going to have to meet them if you want our support.

59:43Kara Swisher:And where do you think it will end up? And you think sticking with it is the best course of action? I think so. I think that when people get notices that their health insurance premiums, which are already sky high, unaffordable, are going to go up by double, triple, I think my Republican colleagues are going to say, okay, enough is enough. We can't go home and defend that. Let's negotiate something. And so, but you and Representative Cortez says you're not going to take a pinky promise. It has to have passed legislation, signed by the president. Oh, absolutely. Look, these guys lie all the time.

1:00:20Kara Swisher:So that would be an extension or permanently? I think it should be permanently extended. Look, and by the way, having said that, I'm not a great fan of the ACA, the Affordable Care Act. Before Trump, to be honest, the health care system was broken. Right. We paid the highest prices in the world. We need to do what every other major country does, and that is a Medicare for All system. That seems far away. So this is what you'll accept right now. Yeah, right now. That's a progressive stance, Medicare for All. Let's talk about the modern progressive movement. As I noted, you and Representative Ocasio-Cortez joined you at many of these fighting oligarchy rallies.

1:00:59Kara Swisher:Is she your heir apparent? Can you explain this relationship for people? I mean, it's adorable. Adorable. Well, look, she is, I think, an outstanding person. I think she is really, really smart. I think in the best sense of the word, she's a great politician. I know she was up in Vermont a few years ago. We had breakfast together at a restaurant. People come out over there. And her smile, the way she greets people, it's genuine. She's real. She's a real person. And I think people see that. But there are other great people in the House of Representatives who are doing a great job as well. So I don't have any heir or parents.

1:01:40She is just doing great. But there are many, many others out there who are fighting the right fight as well.

1:01:46Kara Swisher:Well, she is on your tour, though. I don't see others. She was on my tour. Yeah, so one of the things that's important to think about is what's coming next in the Democratic Party. And there are all these interesting races, like with Graham Plattner in Maine a few days ago, the state's two-term senator, where Democratic Governor Janet Mills announced she's running for Senate and setting up a tough primary. What do you think, if you had to pick, if there's all these different people like Plattner and others, that means for the 2026 elections and then the 2028 elections, if it's going to be built around a progressive agenda?

1:02:22I think what you're seeing, I mean, for example, it was interesting to me that more and more establishment Democrats saying, you know what, I don't want any AIPAC money, right? That's interesting, because they are understanding that the American people have been disgusted with billions of U.S. dollars going to Netanyahu to starve children in Gaza. So they're catching on. I think what you're seeing in Michigan with Abdul El-Sayed, you're seeing it in Nebraska with Dan Osborne, you're seeing in Texas with some strong candidates, James...

1:02:59Kara Swisher:Tallarico. Tallarico. And others, and congressional candidates as well. You see working class candidates coming up who I think are resonating with, you know, people like them in their willingness to take on big money and fight for an agenda that works for working families. And I think that is fairly transformational. We're beginning to see some really fundamental changes in the nature of the Democratic Party. All right, my last question. You're 84 years old right now. You told Politico that your current term, which ends in 2030, will likely be your last, but you also filed papers to run again in 2030.

1:03:37Kara Swisher:Do you feel like there's enough of this movement that you've instilled, whether it's AOC, whether it's Mamdani, someone like Texas Congressman Greg Kassar? When do you imagine you'll be able to say, okay, they've got it from here? Or where do you think of yourself? Well, they have it already. It's not a question, you know, Momdani is— So what about for yourself? I don't think you're going to be a 200-year-old candidate. You don't think so? No. I would advise against it. I try to do unprecedented things. You are suggesting that I'm not going to be a 200-year-old senator. See? You people are always doubting, doubting, doubting.

1:04:13I don't know. All right, anyhow, look, it's not me, okay? I do my thing. I am really proud of the campaign Momdani is running in New York, a brilliant campaign, grassroots campaign, talking about the right issues, what Alexandria is doing, what Greg in Texas is doing, what great candidates all over the country are doing. For as long as I can do it, I'm going to play my role. I grew up in a three and a half room rent controlled apartment in New York City. OK, I am from the working class of this country. Those are my people. And I hope to God I never forget where I came from. So I'm going to continue that fight for as long as I can.

1:04:49Kara Swisher:All right. Thank you so much, Senator Sanders. Thank you very much. Take care.

1:04:57Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Rosel, Kateri Yoakum, Michelle Alloy, Megan Burney, Kaylin Lynch, and Devin Schwartz. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Rosemary Ho and Catherine Barner. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get an inflatable frog costume. If not, you're a 200-year-old senator. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

1:05:35Kara Swisher:We'll be back on Thursday with more.

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