Can Data Centers Be Done Right?

22:15It has to be flushed. And when it is flushed, what happens is those chemicals, those biocides that are used to clean all the chips come through that. And if we haven't read about what's happening in Wyoming, a Metacampus is responsible. They traced it back. Aaron, I mean, you obviously know, they traced it back to the Meta Campus. So the closed loop is not the panacea that it has been told. And my question is for the campus in Lansing, what is the backup generation? Every data center campus needs backup generation. What is that, Mayor? Again, our generation was going to be, they were going to generate what they could from the fuel cell.

22:55And we had eight megawatts reserved for them. We have excess power because we have a municipal utility. And the city controls the municipal utility. It's not consumers. It's not DTE. So our utility had reserved, in essence, power for the max generation. We didn't think they were actually going to do 24 megawatts naturally. We thought they would do, again, 16, 18. But at a high peak, we had the power ready for them from the grid, which was available. Again, we weren't going to, you know. They don't have backup diesel generators. That's what I mean. They don't have backup diesel generators. No, not at all.

23:32Nope, this was straight fuel cell non-combustion. We would not allow that. I didn't know where you were going with that, so sorry. It never even came up. Diesel generation never even came up. Right. Go ahead, Darren. So on the closed loop, I'm really glad we're having this conversation. And, Elaine, exactly what you pointed out happened in Cheyenne is one issue with closed loop. But there's another, and Logan might really want to jump in on here, because the closed-loop system is kind of a paradox to the engineers. I call it kind of an illusion because if they don't have the open evaporation systems, which is where they're using more direct water, we go to the closed-loop system, which actually is going to end up consuming more water off-site because you need the electricity for all these closed-loop systems.

24:23And now you've created a bigger problem. So there's two issues with the closed loop, but it's presented to people as, oh, it's closed loop. You're going to be using less water. In actuality, you're going to be using more water offsite. You're going to need the Duke Energies of the world. You're going to need the PG &Es of the world, the utilities, the nuclear, the coal, to provide all the electricity for these closed loop systems. One of the biggest misconceptions that I found as the Stratos Data Center conversation was starting to ramp up and reporters were getting really interested in trying to understand the issue is there's actually two water stories.

25:03One is the water of consumption of the data center itself, but then the other one is the water consumption of your energy generation. And usually folks, the data center developers, will just talk about the water consumption of the data center itself and they'll say, oh, it's closed loop, we're not using very much. Right.

25:20Kara Swisher:I was just about to shift to water. Data centers require vast amounts of water for what's known as evaporative cooling. A 2024 report found that most existing data centers use this method. Logan, you estimated that Kevin O 'Leary's proposed Stratos project in Utah would use 16.6 billion gallons of water a year to operate the gas turbines. O 'Leary recently said that he is prepared to significantly reduce the size of the proposed 40 ,000 acre project. break down this water use for people to understand and how does Stratos compare to other water intensive projects? And we know golf courses use too much water.

25:51Kara Swisher:We're aware of that in places like Utah where water is already scarce. So Logan, if you could go through that and full disclosure, I call Kevin O 'Leary a moron almost on the daily. So just full disclosure. I think he's the greatest face you could have for this because that means none are ever going to get built. But you don't have to say that. I can say that. Logan, can you explain that? Like how big this is and break down the water use? Yeah. So again, the Stratus Data Center proposal here in Utah, it has many of the similar elements. It was under the cover of night. We had this extra dynamic where we had this special quasi-governmental organization that was signing off on it.

26:30But when it came up and when it started to hit the public awareness, I started looking around for, oh, what is their plan? What are they actually planning to do? And there was no details. The level of detail was we're going to build 100 % natural gas, non-gigawatt data center, which is insanity. Because, I mean, the entire state of Utah uses about four gigawatts total at our peak. So it's more than double what the entire state of Utah uses. So I just said, okay, well, if there's no details, you know, people are screaming for details. They want to know, like, what does this actually mean? And so I said, okay, what are the two most common types of natural gas power production?

27:13And there's two different dominant technologies. There's more out there. There's boutique technologies that are getting deployed at small scale. But if you're looking at building a non-gigawatt data center, you're going to use whatever the dominant technologies are. So the first option is combined cycle turbines. Those are the most common kind of utility scale power generation. And they use evaporative cooling for the power generation. And that's, again, this is in addition to the data center itself. And that's what would take, if you were to build nine gigawatts with combined cycle turbines, that's what it would take 16 billion gallons of water.

27:48The problem with that is, I mean, there's lots of problems with that. There's lots of trade-offs, depending on what technology you use. But there's such a rush to gas right now that those turbines are backordered five to seven years. So they're not available right now. And so what's happening is all these data centers are pivoting to this other technology called reciprocating engines. And they basically look like a diesel locomotive powered by natural gas. I mean, some of them actually are diesel. The backup generators are diesel, but they also make natural gas versions of these. They consume less water.

28:18It's still a non-gigawatt facility would take 2 billion gallons of water per year. But they emit tons. They're way less efficient in terms of the combustion. So they emit tons of nitrogen oxide pollution that contributes to ozone and particulate matter. This is what's happening down in Tennessee. Exactly. And so there are real trade-offs there. And this is just the water consumption from the power generation. This is in addition to whatever water consumption there would be from the actual data center campus. And I think one of the really big flashpoints in Utah is the location where they were planning to put this is right on the north shore of the Great Salt Lake.

28:58And if you know anything about Utah, you know that the Great Salt Lake is having troubles. We're using too much water. And there's a major effort across the state. There's tons of awareness on reducing water consumption. Everybody, farmers, cities, everyone's being asked to conserve water. You know, don't water your lawn. We're in a drought. We had the worst winter snowpack as a function of climate change and natural weather variability. And so everyone's being asked to conserve water, especially in the Great Salt Lake watershed. And then, you know, this data center is getting this kind of like free pass with these backdoor deals, going to consume a massive amount of water.

29:36And so that just really, really ignited. Furiated people. Yeah.

29:43Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

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33:29Kara Swisher:So, Erin, you've reported increased turbidity and cloudiness in the water where data center is being built in addition to loss of water pressure also on top of that. What is the sense of what's causing it and whether these effects are limited to the construction phase? That's a great question. So, you know, I've been watching the arc from proposal stage, which we've talked about. And the main thing is the complete lack of transparency. and then all of a sudden construction starts. And it's during that construction phase that you start hearing from people, whether it's I've got a trickle of water, whether I've had to redrill a well because my well water went too low, too turbidity.

34:12So depending on like if you have shallow water, you're going to get a lot of turbidity and discoloration. And so we're now during this construction phase, We're getting into the noise, the disruption, the water issues, the lack of water, consistent water, dirty water, water you can't drink, into electrical. They're getting power outages. It flickers on. It flickers off to the huge, huge disruption. And to watch it, it's almost like really violent. They're just destroying the trees, the habitat, and then all the way to up and running. And when they're up and running, this is where we hear so much about this 24-7 noise.

35:01So it's kind of an arc. And so during the construction phase, that's where you're starting to get so many reports of different water issues.

35:11Kara Swisher:So data centers require continuous power to operate. Virginia recently passed an energy consumption tax on data center operators. They'll pay 11 cents per kilowatt hour of electricity used, and the tax is capped at$600 million a year. Not sure why it's capped. Elena, how much of an impact do you think the tax will have on electricity costs in Virginia? And Andy, would something similar be effective in Michigan? Elena, you go first. So the tax really won't have much of an impact. What would have had an impact is had they removed the incentive. What will have an impact is a rate care pace right now before the SEC based on the hay market transmission line.

35:49I appreciate this conversation, but I just want to interject one thing, if you don't mind. Sure, please. So here's what people should be paying attention to. Virginia is your future. Why are we still fighting for Virginia? Because there's still plenty left to say. What is happening in Virginia is literally the canary in the coal mine. We are running a 21st century industry off coal that's coming from transmission lines all the way from West Virginia. And on days where there's too much stress on the grid, they are running on diesel generators. And it's not about NIMBY. It's about a very basic principle of a democratic process that has left us out.

36:30And instead of ensuring that we have clean air and clean water, we want to make sure

36:33Kara Swisher:that this industry can function no matter what the cost. Right. So even in your point being that even if you paid more, we shouldn't let them even pay more because it's not worth the cost. Here was the perspective of the coalition of why making them pay this particular cost allocation was critical in 2016. If they have to pay for their own stuff, you better believe they'll innovate. Because I give this example all the time. Somebody drops you off at a CarMax and they say, the world is your oyster. Pick whatever you want. You're probably going to pick the Ferrari. But if they say, hey, you have to cover the cost of your own car, you might pick the Ford Fiesta.

37:10And right now they're picking the Lamborghini off our dime. And it's time they pick the Ford Fiesta.

37:15Kara Swisher:They have to innovate. You're making an excellent point. So you don't even think that more taxes is what's needed. Andy, can you respond to this? Do you think that having these energy consumption tax, you're saying, Elaine, it's not good enough. Andy, how do you respond to that? I mean, I think one of the biggest concerns that I hear is, you know, I don't want my rates to go up for a business that is going to be making a lot of money. And again, we said that's not going to happen here. But certainly if they're going somewhere and there is a federal tax and it's, you know, throughout the country, because right now we're getting picked apart state by state, and that can reimburse consumers or pay consumer bills.

37:53I do think that would help to alleviate at least some of the concerns. Now, there are other concerns. You've heard them here, and I get that. I think there are concerns that could be shared about a lot of different industries that put, you know, pollution into the air and into the water, and focusing just on data centers ignores a bigger part of what's going on. But I think that ensuring that people are not being required to pay more for an industry that can certainly pay their own. Again, when they came to us and said, you know, we want to talk about incentives, we said not a chance. You guys are cash rich.

38:25There is not a chance you're getting an incentive and you're going to pay to make sure that our poorest folks are getting energy help, which is our pennies for power project.

38:34Kara Swisher:Let me bring Logan in. A recent Goldman Sachs Commodities Research Report found that the U.S. data center power demand is forecast more than double the 66 gigawatts in 2027 from 31 in 2025. Put that energy use into perspective, Logan, and the stress it increases on the grid. And aside from all these other deleterious effects, and in order to meet energy demand, some companies have built on-site power sources that are separate from public utilities. For the Stratos project in Utah, you calculated that a 9-gigawatt natural gas power plant would produce around 35 million metric tons of carbon emissions every year.

39:11Kara Swisher:And I'd love to understand the first question and then how significant is that to Utah's air quality and emissions as a whole? Yeah, I mean, this is an enormous increase in electricity production, if it comes to pass. And I think there's also a good possibility that we're in a hype cycle and the AI data center bubble will burst. as soon as you put a dollar amount on compute efficiency, all of a sudden, some clever engineer figures out how to do something more efficient. It's actually funny. I've seen a number of articles back from the year 2000 when the internet was first blowing up and we thought, oh, we'd have all these internet servers everywhere.

39:56They're going to consume all this power. And then what happened? Energy efficiency was this massive push. And we've actually been able to keep energy load growth through more efficient lighting, et cetera, largely flat in this country for a long time, even as we've been growing. And so -

40:14Kara Swisher:We did get all that bad social media stuff that made our girls feel bad and our bodies addicted to porn, but go ahead. Go ahead. Yes. That's another show. There's that too. That's the separate problem. That's more of like, should we be doing it in the first place? But if this low growth does come to pass, that is a massive build-out cycle for our energy system. Now, one piece of the conversation is our energy system needs to be upgraded. There are so many things that need investment. And so there's a possibility, if this is done the right way with transparency, with public input, that these cash-rich entities could make investments.

40:57And I'm talking about advanced transmission technologies, like reusing the current right-of-way to put advanced conductors that can put more energy through the lines.

41:06Kara Swisher:If they go through with this one, the quality of air and the emissions are staggering for you to occur. Anonymous, yeah. Yeah. And to put it in perspective, the entire state of Utah has like 65 million metric tons. So this one facility would increase Utah's total greenhouse gas emission, total CO2 emissions by like 50%. Now, the other thing that isn't accounted in that is upstream natural gas leakage. Natural gas is not really natural. It's actually methane gas. Natural gas is about 95 % methane. And methane is a really potent greenhouse gas. It's about 80 times more potent than CO2 on a 20-year lifespan, which is what we all care about.

41:47And it turns out that there is an enormous amount of methane leakage in upstream oil and gas production facilities. In Utah and Wyoming, it's something like 5 % of the gas that comes out of the ground just leaks into the air. Aaron, what were you going to say? Well, you know, Logan is talking about the huge load on one system. And if we're going to build out 1 ,200 to 1 ,400 or more of these across America, you're talking about a load that I do not believe our antiquated infrastructure can handle. So I participate in what are called these terrible, they're called the Prince Wind Energy Engagement Group.

42:30They cannot reconductor. They were supposed to reconductor the massive transmission line that goes to the Bonassas National Battlefield. and within one year, they said, we cannot afford to have any planned outages on this line because it will bring down the system. Your transmission line infrastructure is like your highway. And right now that highway is clogged. And what we are building is an entire infrastructure for one industry. What happens when that industry innovates and we have built out trillions of dollars worth of infrastructure that they don't need anymore? Who is the one responsible for that?

43:03We have to pause and we have to have a plan And I'm just going to tell you, if you want to see your future, look at Virginia. They're not doing it any different because if they could, they would.

43:17Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

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44:31off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Croc store today. This episode is brought to you by Claude by Anthropic. Claude is the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough. It's the collaborator that actually understands your entire workflow and thinks with you. Whether you're debugging code at midnight or strategizing your next to business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter and finds connections you might have missed. For problems worth solving, get started at claude.ai slash Spotify.

45:11Kara Swisher:We had an expert outside question in every episode. Here is yours. I'm Beth Macy. I'm a reporter and author who's running for Congress in Virginia's 6th District. Data centers have become a huge issue in my rural agricultural part of the state. In fact, opposition to them seems to be the only thing that's bringing Republicans and Democrats together lately. So I guess maybe that's a healthy thing for our democracy. Many people from big tech, the business community, and even some of our local governments say that data centers and AI are inevitable. So don't worry, everything will be fine, you Luddites.

45:45I disagree. I think we need guardrails about who pays for the utilities, the water usage, and the environmental impact of data centers, not to mention protection from the looming catastrophe that AI promises for our workforce. I think AI is going to make what NAFTA did to factory workers look like child's play. So I'm asking you guys, what kind of guardrails can we place against data centers and AI? What kind of federal legislation can protect our jobs, our young people, and our land and water from a handful of billionaire, kooky man babies who want to be trillionaires?

46:20Kara Swisher:Hey, I like Beth. What a great book she wrote. Erin, why don't you go first and then Logan, Andy, and Elena to answer best question. Obviously, as you were pointing out, Elena, it's a bigger issue than just this. But Erin, you start. Oh, yeah. It's every issue and it's everyone's issue that's at stake. It's the water. It's the electrical grid. It's the cost of utilities. It's the noise. It's the air pollution. It's the loss of our land, our sanctuary. It just feels like a full-on assault. and see at a local level, they're the ones in charge of zoning and permitting, is to have oversight. I know that states, we have 14 states that are now going to start looking at, you know, state legislation and oversight.

47:05And yes, federal, this is an absolute runaway train. And it is probably one of the biggest conversations that I've ever seen in my 30 years in my career that is political. It could be bipartisan. Everybody's going to have to be involved. I am perplexed, Kara. Why our leaders don't listen to the people? And there's a movement happening and a shift that I don't think these big tech companies or giants saw coming. Go ahead, Logan. Yeah, I mean, we need demand. We need data centers to have demand flexibility so they're not adding to our peak load at the most critical times. So they're not putting additional stress on the grid.

47:56They need to pay for their own infrastructure and they need to socialize and pay for upgrading the whole grid is really what they should be doing. And we really need it to be bringing around clean energy and storage. This is an opportunity to actually build out and develop some of the emerging technologies. So a great example of that that's, I think, a major opportunity here in Utah and across the West is developing geothermal energy. And so pairing solar with geothermal, there's enormous opportunities there. And we can have data centers help to drive down the cost so that energy type can displace other kind of firm generation.

48:34It can be clean firm generation, which our grid needs. And it has to be transparent reporting and public engagement. The Utah Foundation, it's one of the groups here in Utah, they do an annual survey of voter priorities. In 2024, their number two issue that they ranked was politicians ignoring voters. And this perfectly encapsulates politicians ignoring voters, this issue around data centers. And then the Stratos was just like this massive example of that. And one of the big political fallouts here in Utah, I mean, apologists are not immune, are the president of the Utah State Senate lost his primary election.

49:13Kara Swisher:Yeah. Well, I'll get to that in a second. Yeah. Yeah. It's a political earthquake. He's one of the most influential legislators here in Utah and it was not close. Andy, speak to that. Are you worried about your job? No. I just won reelection in November and I knocked 10 ,000 doors. First, let me say, I agree with the guardrails. I've actually had conversations with the climate mayors and the Sustainable Cities Coalition, and they've asked me, what are the guardrails you were able to get? And they've got documents that say, put these guardrails on. It's everything you've heard. Water, electric, making sure they pay for it.

49:44Maintenance. We haven't even talked about maintenance. Heat capture, customer benefit, things like that. That is absolutely, that should be on everybody's to-do list. I don't care who you are. But I knocked 10 ,000 doors, and you want to know what people want to hear about? In Lansing, Michigan, and in Michigan, taxes are too high, costs are too high, roads stink, and potholes, public safety, and too many guns on the street. I got a few, you know, data center, environmental. I did get a few of those. But when politicians listen to people, they listen to all of the things, all of the things. It's not just one thing.

50:20I can't just focus on one thing. And this is part of it. So when we said, you know, what we're doing with, you know, whether it's high manufacturing, the new battery plant that just came in, auto manufacturing, the proposed data center, all of these things, we talk about benefit that's going to help out for taxation so we don't have to raise taxes. We talk about building housing. We're building, you know, new housing units, affordable and market rate. So I disagree. I think politicians, not everybody, right? Not everybody is the prince. But I think politicians do listen to constituents, but they have to make decisions.

50:52And when you talk about the studies, you know, I tell everybody this. Politicians or public officials or a mayor, you have to make decisions. We are decision makers. And when you decide for somebody, they're like, of course you did. I'm right. And when you decide against somebody, they say, you suck and you're not listening to me. So we really lose no matter what. But that's the job. The job is to listen to people and then make a decision for what you think is best for your community. And you know what? If you tell enough people that they're wrong, they're going to vote you out of office. So that's, I mean, that's politics.

51:26And they're doing that. And, you know, in some areas they are and in some areas they are not. We can certainly point to a few places where they are, but I can point to a lot of places where they're not. And that is the same system we have always had. All right, Elena. So let me just share a little story very quickly. When this fight began in 2014, I was on the General Assembly floor with the most socially conservative Republican in the entire, you know, delegation. and somebody said, oh my God, hell has frozen over Bob Marshall and Elena Schlossberger hugging. And let me tell you, as much as this industry is tearing communities apart, it is also bringing people together at a time when things have never been more tribal or toxic between the two parties.

52:11And that has been our superpower. And as far as decision makers, I have had a board of supervisors sit in front of me and say, I'm the decision maker. She didn't care about the facts. She didn't care about the science. She didn't care about the risk to the grid. She didn't care about the overall impacts of what was happening. And in my community, you can't get elected unless you are on the right side of this issue because it's not just about NIMBY. I say this all the time. I just want to leave this one quote before. If I am not for myself, who am I? If I am only for me, who am I? And if not now, then when?

52:44This fight is everything. It's about every single conservation easement in the state of Virginia. It's about transmission lines. It's about dirty diesel generators. It's about coal. It's about everything people care about.

52:57Kara Swisher:Which I think is true. But I think the mayor has a point. People are also concerned about this and this. Like the ability to be nuanced has been lost in our society. When your utility bills are doubling and you're in one of those communities that is a demographic that can't afford it, you suddenly care. Because now your utility bill is as expensive as your rent or your mortgage. Yes, I would agree. In June, Republican primaries in Box Elder County, which I think was what you're referring to, some pro-stratus data center candidates lost elections, also shaping out to be a national issue in the midterms.

53:28Kara Swisher:At the same time, opposition is sometimes characterized, as you said, as hyper-local and NIMBY-driven. What's interesting to me is the point you made about the tech companies don't know. I've had meetings with all of them. And, well, I wrote a book called Burn Book, which was somewhat critical of them, very critical. And they thought it was too mean. And when I went to see them, I said, I don't think it's mean enough. I think people hate you. Like, I think you're going to see a hatred growing towards you. And they're like, they don't hate us. I'm like, no, they hate you. And you'll see as more and more happens.

53:58Kara Swisher:And what was interesting is just recently, suddenly a lot of these tech companies have called me. They're like, it looks like you're right about them hating us. I was like, now they hate you more. Like, I don't know what to tell you because you've done so many horrible things. But talk about when they try to blame it on nimbyism or what's happening here. Maybe each of you talk about how it's affected politics. And by the way, it's against the backdrop of President Trump signing an executive order to speed up federal approvals for AI data centers and energy infrastructure. And the Energy Department announced last week the Trump administration is repurposing federal land to host massive data centers.

54:33Kara Swisher:So that's happening. Why don't you start, given the federal government's efforts to accelerate it, to what extent can you rein it in? And then the others can comment on that. In terms of reining it in, again, I think we can set local conditions. But not if they put it on a federal land. I mean, zoning generally gets left to locals with local citizens being able to make that decision at a planning commission meeting, which is made up of citizens that are appointed or elected. So I think that that's I think remaining a local decision where you can throw out your mayor and council members for whatever decision they make.

55:11You have recall. You know, one of the things that concerns me, and you know about this, is the Trump administration is proposing putting federal bureaucrats in charge of making decisions at the federal level for grants and other things like that without actually looking at the actual science or the, you know, the conditions. And I've been pretty critical of that. I think leaving it local. But, you know, and I know you had asked kind of what's the impact. I think that I honestly think that those that care that have made this their their issue have formed a block. And I've seen a ton of that.

55:45Kara Swisher:So, Elena and Aaron, first, if Trump is going to give away federal lands to do this, there is no stopping it for now, at least. So let me just preface this with actually let's make this very clear. It is a bipartisan issue, both on the side of responsible development and oversight and irresponsible. It doesn't matter whether you're blue or red. I see it in both ways. President Biden, on his way out the door, was the first one to pass an executive order to allow federal lands to have data center infrastructure. And so what President Trump did was he just simply like, I mean, lit that on fire. Right now in Prince William County, I'll read you the headline.

56:26Prince William Forest National Park land swap considered for data centers. There's no local oversight. This is federal land. We can do nothing. All we can do is impress upon the Secretary of the Interior that if this happens, you will start to see, I think, such a backlash against Republicans. That is more than what is happening now, because this issue unites everyone and it does matter. You know, fighting data centers and talking about energy and water and grid infrastructure, let me tell you, not the sexiest thing. But when it comes to utility bills, it really matters. This, as much as it has risked democracy, let me tell you something.

57:06Democracy is what is saving us right now. It is people coming together and using their voices to expose the rot and not caring if it's their own party. And we talked about oversight. I think that was the question. In the state of Virginia, in January, we have a very truncated session. And this will be year number five. We go, we ask for legislation. Last year, we got some through. It's about transparency. It's about accountability. It's about regulation. and it's about holding them accountable. There are ways on a statewide level and we're gonna continue to try again.

57:38Kara Swisher:Okay, all right. So Erin, very quickly on if the feds put them on these lands. Well, it's very concerning and you are starting to see that happen. And I do know, we probably all do, that Senator Sanders is definitely looking at more federal oversight. And I don't know if that kind of, if we can get some of that passed could slow back. Trump's decision on federal lands, but it gets pretty dicey. And Andy said it. This is very much local issues, very much state issues. And it is concerning that federally Trump would just come in and take over those lands. So it's, and it is, it's a bipartisan issue.

58:18And, you know, Elena is correct. There's going to be some type of backlash here politically. And I hear it state by state. Texas is really chiming up out there that this is going to be enough game changer for people to switch parties.

58:36Kara Swisher:Okay. So I'm going to end on talking about data centers done right because they're going to come. This is going to have, they're going to have some of them. But how to do it correctly, I'd like to end on. A recent report from Brookings Institute argues that data centers can become sustainable engines of local economic growth, but only if communities move away from development model defined by, quote, speedy deal making and opaque negotiations, which we've been talking about here. OpenAI has a proposal for so-called AI economic zones that are, quote, created by local, state, and federal government together with industry that significantly speed up the permitting processes for building AI infrastructure like new solar arrays, wind farms, and nuclear reactors.

59:14Kara Swisher:I know Sam Altman is particularly interested in nuclear reactors. Kevin O 'Leary has said, quote, sustainability is at the heart of what we do in terms of these proposals, which is not accurate. But talk about what has to happen here where a data center is a genuine value add for the people who live there. I'd like each of you to address it in any of these ideas, whether it's opening these AI economic zones or using nuclear or if you had to be pushed and say, OK, we're going to have a data center. If you were running the show, each of you, what would you foresee? And you could foresee in the future, too.

59:49Kara Swisher:Like it doesn't have to be what exists at this point. Right. Let's start with you, Logan, and then Andy and Elena and Aaron. Yeah. I mean, this is what we've been trying to communicate to folks. Like, let's have a positive vision for how to do this responsibly. If data centers are done responsibly and they actually pay for their own infrastructure and help to actually drive down costs of the infrastructure for other folks, you could actually see energy electricity costs coming down because you're having a big load that's helping to pay for a lot of the costs that are usually socialized across ratepayers.

1:00:22And so it is possible, but you need people who are ratepayer defenders, who are engaged at the Public Service Commission, understand these issues and understand how to structure the tariffs so that data centers pay their fair way or more than their fair way. And there has to be demand flexibility. Often our grid is built to supply energy at the peak times when everyone's turning on their air conditioner and when it's the hottest out, right? And you have to have enough capacity to serve those. And it's really just like 10 to 20 hours a year that our energy spikes up to be the highest level. And that drives enormous amount of costs.

1:01:03So if they can just turn off, curtail the load during just a few hours of the year, they could actually not add to the peak load that our grid has to serve, which is a big driver of costs. And again, this is an opportunity to build nuclear energy. There's a lot of discussion about nuclear. It's interesting because it is a carbon-free form of energy. There's a lot of health concerns with it. We still haven't dealt with the waste. But the biggest problem with nuclear energy is that it's always a decade out, and it's five to six times the cost of anything else. And so it's used as kind of a distraction for other technologies that we have available today, which is wind, solar, batteries, and geothermal.

1:01:48And geothermal specifically fills the same kind of clean firm generation profile that nuclear would. And we're seeing some of the very first next generation geothermal projects are coming online this year, actually in a few months here in Utah, and there'll be a few more in the West. And so it's a really exciting time. People should be talking about geothermal and nuclear is just really not a part of the equation because it's not economic and it's not timely.

1:02:14Kara Swisher:All right. Andy? I mean, I think I've talked quite a bit about kind of the list that we've come up with, but we've talked about water and making sure water is preserved. I live in Michigan, right? 20 % of the fresh water in the world is right here in the Midwest and the Great Lakes. You know, again, I love the closed loop system, but I hear the issues. So I think that needs to be part of the conversation. Contributions to low income energy programs. Again, if they're going to come in and they're going to do this, we want to make sure that people not only aren't being affected, but more people can afford to live.

1:02:45So I love that. You know, they have to pay to build it. Again, if they're cash rich, they have to pay to build it. In our case, they were going to pay to build it and then give it to us to operate. For me, local decision. If the locals want to operate it, if they want the company to operate it, no incentives. And I hold to that, you know, they don't need them. And I don't think that we should be giving them, you know, urban info, zoning and location, you know, location. Again, And we wanted to put ours in the northern part of the downtown. People didn't like that. And they got their way. And that's OK.

1:03:12But it's also industrial by right. We have an auto plant that closed in 2006. They may go there, which is the natural place for them to go. You know, we don't have farmland, so I can't comment on that. But I think there's a system that can be set up. Because, again, I think we're going to have them. I think there is a demand, and you'll say we'll get to it, for AI. I mean, when we have people come in and tell us the evils of AI, reading it from the AI on their phone, there's a hypocrisy there. So you have to figure out what you need and how you get there. Right. Elena? So I look at this and I reverse the equation.

1:03:50And the equation is not how do we meet this low demand. It is how do they demand less. Here's what a good AI data center build out looks like. They're not relying on coal. They're not relying on diesel generators. They're not relying on gas turbines. They don't need all the chillers on top because they need to remain so cool. I mean, because that's really what this is all about is their cooling. A healthy data center build out is less because I'll tell you, a campus four miles down the road from the Aton intersection, 150 acres, two campuses combined, is about 1 ,000 megawatts, which is one gigawatt.

1:04:26That's enough for one nuclear reactor. The scale and cumulative impacts are beyond anything. It is unprecedented and we need to slow down to understand like that, you know, the cart before the horse. I mean, that cart is like miles ahead.

1:04:43Kara Swisher:That's a really good point. Erin? I'm laughing, Elena, because that's exactly what I was going to say. This conversation and everybody's points are spot on, but it's difficult to have because the horse has left the barn. And this is precisely, you know, I will talk about the corporations here, and I have seen them do this for 30 years, over and over again, expecting the same result. You never put safety and infrastructure on the upfront. You're always running something down the line for the money to be the first, to be the best, to make more money. And if you would reverse that business model and do safety and infrastructure on the upfront before you let the horse out of the gate, you'll still yield a profit, but your long-term yields would be so much greater.

1:05:39And everybody that has been here today, I've loved this conversation. I could do this all day long. as points are well taken and the horse has left the barn and it's going to be very hard to get it back. And I do think that this time it's going to take local council. It's going to take state. It's going to take federal. But something that I think we have been missing for a long time is going to be a huge part of this change in conversation and how you get that horse back in the barn, if you can, and how you move forward is going to be coming from the people.

1:06:19Kara Swisher:So this is my last question. Data centers obviously have wrapped up, as Andy noted, in a broader AI backlash. And for many people, as I noted, it feels like the facilities and the tech, they enable it being forced upon them. And I'd like to know from each of you, what's the most important thing that needs to happen to change public opinion, not just on data centers, but on AI more broadly. And tech, I think the tech people have done it to themselves, which, you know, one of your, when you said safety, I had a line in my book saying, how can you understand safety if you never felt unsafe a day in your life?

1:06:53Kara Swisher:These are people who create things who aren't unsafe and then wonder why people of color or women are upset. This is about social media because they never feel unsafe. The broad public opinion is very clear on this. And especially with young people around AI overall, and now data centers is another manifestation of that. At some level, it does cross over into probably not great for our future, right? Not to be part of building things. And in industries, probably these discussions happened around railroads and cars and everything else. We've had this before. And as you note, Aaron, correctly, these companies never change.

1:07:28Kara Swisher:It's just the type of company it is. It's the same people doing the same nonsense. What's the most important thing that needs to happen to change public opinion on the topic? And so I'd like first Elena and then Andy, Logan and Aaron, you get the last word on what could be done to change the public's attitude. Because right now it's deeply negative, I would say. And it should be somewhere in the middle, presumably. I don't know. I think that's a great question. I wouldn't presume that it should be. I think that there is a place for technology. And right now it's like we're at Caligula's drunken fest and everybody is partaking with no thought of consequences.

1:08:10And so I believe I trust people. First of all, we're smelling it. We're feeling it. We're seeing it. We're tasting it. Something is broken. And I see it with my kids who actually reject a lot of the AI slop. Mine too. And I think that what has to happen is a more mature conversation, which, you know, is not happening right now. So I actually, I don't know, I think that the conversation, the difficult conversation that's happening now needs to happen. And if it's uncomfortable, good.

1:08:42Kara Swisher:That's a really good point. Okay, Andy, next. Sure. You know, I think, Kara, you made some good points that this has happened before. And I think a lot of that, knowing my history, is unchecked commerce, right? So what did we do in the past? We didn't just suddenly trust the auto industry. We didn't just suddenly trust manufacturing. We said five-day work week. We said occupational safety standards. We said, you know, these are things that for us in a union state created the unions. These are the important pieces that got us to this is a positive because it's jobs and people are getting paid and the cars are coming.

1:09:20And I think that's what we've been talking about is, you know, what are the guardrails? What are the guardrails to make sure that we can have this tool that I do think is going to be part of the future, but have it responsibly? And all that being said, what does that mean? It means you got to build trust. And I think you're hearing this here from Elena and Aaron and Logan and you and there is not trust. And I think you and I talked about this. You asked me to people not trust the local government. And I said, I think they do trust the local government. They don't trust the companies to do what they're promising.

1:09:54So I think it's building trust. And how do you build trust? Carrot and the stick. You know, the carrot is you tell them this is what you have to do for people to trust you. And the stick is these are the guardrails and you will comply with these guardrails or you won't have a business and somebody else will comply with the guardrails and they will win the day. And you would ask, you know, before, what's the rush? These folks are all telling local governments that they want to be up in 18 months because the AI race is going to be over in 18 months. So you got to build guardrails. You got to do it with trust.

1:10:23And I think that would result in getting us the technology that we need as we move forward.

1:10:29Kara Swisher:That's a really good point. Logan? Yeah. So, I mean, I think what's happening, one of the dynamics that's happening right now is with this current administration, it is really a smash and grab kind of environment. I call it a coin-operated presidency, but go ahead. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And that is going to lead to a massive backlash because it's destroying the social compact. And these companies, if they're smart, they need to figure out how to regain the public's trust. And really to do that, we need policy regularity. And really, I think the name of the game, kind of the key point is clear, fair rules aren't the enemy of growth.

1:11:13They protect responsible growth. And it's bringing the public into the conversation, making sure we can move forward together. Unless we're doing that, we're going to have all of this conflict. And it's just going to blow up in their face because we have a democracy. And that's the way it works. And it's not going to turn out well until we can get back to clear, fair rules. Yeah. Erin, you get the last word. Well, everybody brings up such great points and listening to all of it, it kind of makes me think We're in between here, the Flintstones and the Jetsons, and the people have suddenly become the gladiators.

1:11:49And for all the forward progress we make, we're going to realize there's some things in the Flintstone days that we just can't do without. And that's jeopardizing our natural resources, our health, and our welfare. And I think a lot of this will begin right at home and teaching kids about AI. So it's going to be a balance that happens in the home. It needs to be a balance that will happen politically. It will be a conversation and just this push-all, be-all, almost takeover of a country. And believe me, this is not only here in America. This is a global issue. I have 10 countries reaching out now.

1:12:37So if ever there's been a moment where we can collectively come together on something, who knew data centers might be the one thing that unites us all?

1:12:49Kara Swisher:Interestingly, I think you are somewhat effective when they start talking about data centers in space. It's like, I'm just leaving. And we're like, go. Good for you. Godspeed. And it's a frustrating conversation. There are other options and there are other solutions. And we have clearly discussed that and why we have to do it this way. Maybe this will be the last time we learn the lesson, but I don't think so. I don't think so either. Anyway, I just did a recent series about medical stuff, about longevity, and some of the AI stuff is going to be groundbreaking. And so it is. Absolutely. That's what we have to focus on, the stuff that is useful for everyone versus just a small group of people who just want to become richer and stuff like that.

1:13:28Kara Swisher:But this has been an incredibly thoughtful conversation. I really appreciate it. And I'm glad we had the time to sort of debate different things and talk it out. And it's an ongoing issue. And so we'll have you back and maybe next year to see where we are. It's a great conversation. I enjoyed meeting everyone. Thank you so much. Me too. Thank you everyone for being so thoughtful. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Come on out to Lansing anytime. Lansing. That's my next trip. Thank you guys so much for doing this.

1:14:00Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Nishat Kurwa, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, Madeline LaPlante-Duby, and Kaylin Lynch. Special thanks to Dave Shaw, Andrea Lopez-Cruzado, and Julia Sharp-Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're getting a solar-powered, aesthetically pleasing data center in your backyard. If not, we're sending you to Elon's data center in space. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

1:14:37Kara Swisher:We'll be back on Monday with more.

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