Comedian Tig Notaro on Laughing Through Grief

26:56And I was just spending half of my year in an apartment, a furnished apartment away from my wife and kids. And I was just like, this is not life. I mean, no offense to the show. I'm still on it, but I asked to be downgraded to just a recurring guest star because I started to really become keenly aware all over again that I want to be in my life and I felt like I was missing it. And I want to be present for it. I guess what I'm getting at is trying to really curate the life that you want to live so that you can have real experiences. It's really hard to shut down, everybody knows this, all of the noise of life.

27:53And do I really need to do this with my time? Do I really want that person in my life? Yeah. Do I really need to be start to finish every day so busy? Like, no, I don't. And so I think that you have to just really, and this is all new to me because I am, after so many interviews of me lying to myself and everybody I was talking to, like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm definitely work-life balance. I'm getting on that, and I'm handling that. Yeah, I see it in my family. And then I was like, no, I'm not. I'm not doing that. And I have to, I'm in charge, and I have to make the changes to live my life, to actually live my life.

28:45That's a long-winded way of saying that I think you just really have to find ways to very honestly show up and experience your life.

28:55Kara Swisher:The way you want it to live it, you're right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was leaving a job that I just didn't like anymore. I wasn't enjoying it. And someone, you know, I was trying to be polite. And they said to me, why are you really leaving? It was a very prominent job. And I said, I don't want to talk to you anymore. I was like, there's only so many seconds and I can't talk to you. And they were like, what? And I said, okay, I have to go now. And I won't be talking to you anymore. You wanted to know? That's actually, that's what it is. You're wasting my time. Now doth time waste me, essentially. That reminds me, I so connect with that deeply because it's different but the same.

29:33When I was such a, I failed three grades and then dropped out of high school. And I was in school suspension one day. And I was like basically 73 years old. I was supposed to be out of school long ago. and I'm sitting there in in-school suspension because I was tardy a million times. I didn't turn in my schoolwork. So I'm sitting in there and when you get assigned a day of in-school suspension, they deliver your classwork and you need to finish that. And if you don't finish that, then they just add more days to in-school suspension. And I was sitting there going, well, I never do my work in the first place.

30:18Why would I do it in here? I don't know who they think is going to be doing these stacks of assignments. And I just thought, I know in my gut, in my soul, that this is not my world. And I got up from my desk, and I just started walking to leave. And the gym coach that was, you know, assigned. Yeah, it's always a gym coach. It's always a gym coach. It was assigned to, like, make sure that we all ended up alive by the end of the day. And that was the only contribution. He got in front of the door. He's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, where do you think you're going? I said, oh, I'm heading home. And he was like, oh, no, you're not.

31:01And I said, no, I actually am. I quit. I'm done. I'm like, I'm just going to head home now. And he was so baffled, but he had to just kind of get out of my way and let me go. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I can do it. I can do that. And I, you know. Well, yeah.

31:20Kara Swisher:There we have the story. This is the story. Absolutely. One of the things that was interesting with Andrea, she wrote a lot about death and grief before they were sick. And there's a line in one of her poems, every time I ever said I wanted to die. And by the way, you used the poetry beautifully. And it's hard to do that, but you did it perfectly. And it goes, sometimes grief is the fastest route to truth. Now, you've lost your mother, your father, your stepfather, and you said that you felt grief differently than in Andrea's death. or you let yourself feel it. Can you talk about that? Do you think having kids changed things for you, what you were just talking about?

31:54Kara Swisher:Like this idea that, you know, I don't have time for this shit kind of thing. I suppose that's the headline version of it. I don't know. You know, probably it's mixed in there because I have kids. But I would say more so than anything, it was so... Every death... I've been at four end-of-life death bedsides. My mother, my stepfather, my cousin, and then Andrea's. And Andrea wanted to die at home surrounded by loved ones. And boy, did they. And my mother, my stepfather, my cousin all died in hospital beds. But this experience was so... I mean, Andrea's home, Andrea and Meg, their home was filled with Andrea's closest friends and ex-girlfriends and parents.

32:50And it was really beautiful. And it was really, there were so many dynamics going on that were being navigated, having to be put aside. and it was so beautiful. And I felt like I was on mushrooms for months after Andrea died because I kept saying to Stephanie, my wife, I was like, I don't even understand how I'm going to come back from Colorado, exit the 101 freeway onto Melrose and just go back to my life in Los Angeles. Like, I truly don't understand. And so I think that that is what changed me as well as Andrea, something opened in me. I am the most like non, I don't even claim that I'm spiritual.

33:49I'm like, but after this experience, I was seeing Andrea, I was feeling Andrea, I was in really ways, I didn't even recognize myself. the way I was talking, the way I was, and also Andrea's body of work that was left behind, that already echoes in my mind the way I go through life. There's so many different lines where I'm like.

34:20Kara Swisher:In that, the striking line, which is in the film, the poem Love Letter from the afterlife, they wrote, I am more here than ever before. I am more with you than I ever could have imagined so close. You look past me just wondering where I am. Just after they died, Andrea made a kind of cameo on the Handsome podcast that you host together with Fortune Feimster and Mae Martin. Tell the story of what happened there. It was funny and weird. And have they made more appearances? Yeah, it was days after Andrea died, and my co-host asked how I was doing, and I was getting into it. And I was just sitting like I'm sitting right now.

35:04I didn't touch anything on my laptop. And then all of a sudden, I heard myself doing standup and material I didn't even recognize. I was like, hold on, guys, do you hear what's happening? And so it felt like, okay, I'm open to what everyone is looking at me thinking, this is Andrea saying hello. So, and that is something I would have shot down before. Sure. And one of my favorite stories on this topic is my wife was in London filming a movie. And I flew out there with our sons and my mother-in-law. And we were all out visiting. And the first morning we woke up, Stephanie's at work. and I take our sons into the little village nearby to go look around.

36:03And there is just a man standing in the middle of the village area, singing at the top of his lungs, looks like we made it, that Shania Twain song. And which is a great song, and it's in the documentary as Andrea and Meg's song. Yeah. And I had just, when I left LA, I had just left Meg, who was staying with us for a screening in Los Angeles. And we had talked about this project we were going to work on. And let's not jump to any decisions. Let's just sit on it. And then I flew off to London, and then she went back to Colorado. And so I walk into town, this guy's singing their song. And I told my sons, I was like, guys, this is Andrea and Meg's song.

36:52I mean, I filmed the back of their heads just watching this man sing it. Like, they understood the beautiful moment we were witnessing. So I was like, wow, that was wild. And I sent that to Meg, and she said, oh, my gosh, I'm weeping. And the next day, we go for high tea. Stephanie's off work. We meet up with her and her mother, and we're all sitting at this cafe. and this woman with this gigantic harp comes and plops it down behind us. And we're like, we kind of look at each other like, oh boy. I love a harp. I would be thrilled, but go ahead. I love a harp, but it's like, how is our tea going to go?

37:36You know, we have a harp that's like two stories high sitting behind us. and so we were all just looking at each other kind of laughing like this is gonna be a funny tea the first song she starts playing was shania twain oh my god wow what's this village in shania twain i would this was a different area of town and then i might i'm looking and i said to max and finn my sons i said do you recognize this song yeah and they said they were i have it on video too, they were just dumbfounded. They said, this is Andrea Meg's song. And I said, yes, it is. So I tell, I send that to Meg too. And she said, well, it looks like Andrea followed your family to London and is giving us the okay to do our project together.

38:33Oh, wow. That's funny.

38:35Kara Swisher:Wow. It looks like we made it. Great song. Yeah. It is. I love Shania Twain. I was a Shania Twain. I wonder, I know, I'm like, gosh, has she heard that her song is in this film? I don't know. I don't know. Well, that's a good question. I'll have to find it for you. Get on the horn. So I'm going to switch. That's a wonderful story. Let's switch gears a bit and talk about comedy in general. The New York Times credits your Grammy nominee, Liv, as a turning point for talking about tragedy and stand-up comedy. Since then, Liz Glazier, Patton Oswalt, and Sarah Silverman all came out with specials about death, to name a few.

39:10Kara Swisher:What do you think about the fact that making it okay to talk about illness and grief is part of your comic legacy? Yeah, it's interesting. You know, there was no big plan behind it. I was a comedian that was just very observational. Right. And every now and then there was something personal, barely, in my comedy. and when I went through that period of time, I not only had a cancer diagnosis, I had pneumonia and C. diff, which is an intestinal disease, very deadly. My mother tripped and hit her head and died and my girlfriend and I broke up and it was a four-month period of time where I had really seen firsthand how life can just slip away and life as you know it an actual life.

40:00And so I loved stand-up so much and thought, I want to do this one last time. And I just felt so compelled to share the reality. When I pictured walking onto Largo's stage in Los Angeles, I could not imagine saying, you know, well, yeah, when I was driving today, like whatever whatever I was going to talk about, I just thought I have to share what I've been going through because it was, I didn't know if I had gone crazy. I was maniacally laughing about different topics that I would never have found funny. One of the things I discussed on stage was the questionnaire that the hospital sent my mother after she died, asking her how her stay in the hospital went.

40:58And when I got that questionnaire, I was so upset. I was so mad. I wanted to make it my life's work to find who sent this and how to stop this. And then after I got back to L.A., I was like, oh, my God, that is so funny. And I was like, I was crying laughing.

41:21Kara Swisher:I'm sorry I laughed, but that's funny. No, my God, it's so funny. And part of my stand-up for that Live album was me answering all of the questions. You know, was your room too loud? Right. Did your nurses and doctors give you the appropriate care? Right. And so I just responded to all of it just so sarcastically. But, you know, it definitely opened this side of me where I'm completely fine to share personal stories of my life and struggles. But I also am finding a balance of, I don't have to tell you everything just because I told you that. And I like where I've landed with all of that. We'll be back in a minute.

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44:04Kara Swisher:Some of the more recent, what I consider groundbreaking work, like Gerard Carmichael's Rathaniel, for example, has a really low joke count. Talk a little bit about this evolution in comedy. I'm thinking of Mike Briglia, too. Like, it's a little different. It's more of a, I don't know what to call it. Is it comedy? Because it's very moving and funny in a way. But do you feel a shift in comedy or not? I mean, there is the whole bro comedy circuit, of course, that continues. Well, I was going to say, where to begin with the shift in comedy? Yeah, I feel a massive shift, whether it is the bro comedy, very conservative comedy.

44:44You know, when I first started almost 30 years ago, it was very unusual to find a conservative, out conservative comedian. Right. People would all kind of reference Dennis Miller. But, yeah, I feel the shift. And I think that when you, I think if you go to that personal place, though, I mean, I think it's like anything you do, though, you have to really be behind what you're saying and not that people are being manipulated in any way with your performance and material. I mean, you want the most authentic experience possible. And if somebody is really going into an emotional story, you want to feel like you're really, really getting a real.

45:38Kara Swisher:A real version of it. Yeah. And when you look at sort of the tech, the sort of bro comedy, and it's linked to tech bros too, which I deal with on the daily. What does the comedy world feel like right now? Because it's all over the place. You know, I'm oddly the worst person to ask this because I feel like after the pandemic, I really kind of stepped away. That's when so much of this shift started to happen. And then when I resurfaced, it was a whole new world. And it's still obviously changing. But I don't know. I've been so, so removed from the stand-up world. I can only give you those broad strokes that you mentioned, where it's getting very personal and it's also getting very bro-y.

46:32Kara Swisher:Do you want to re-enter that world, or do you think it's not the best use of your time? I mean, I still do stand-up. I'm about to start a tour in the new year. But to go back to work-life balance, I told my agent I only want to do a weekend a month rather than these long hauls. Yeah, and I do a few shows a month in Los Angeles to kind of work out material, and then I just go on the road and I'm, I mean, I'm a real weirdo in that I just show up five minutes before I walk on stage and I walk on, tell everyone what I think is funny and then I head out. So I'm very removed and, but I think I'm okay with that.

47:18I'm 54. I've got a family I enjoy being with and it's so different. I'm so different. Yeah.

47:26Kara Swisher:A lot of people feel though that comedy is both under siege and critical during the time we're living in right now. And obviously you communicate it through the podcast that you have with May and Fortune. I'm curious what you think you're doing with that podcast. My wife loves it, by the way. What I'm doing with Handsome? Yeah. Like, how do you think is the best way to communicate? Because you talk a lot about political issues on that show, but also very funny stuff, sort of. I mean, we're not deeply. No. I think just us as people, it's political. But before I started that podcast, I had a podcast with Cheryl Hines about documentaries.

48:07And once her husband ran for president, I said, I need to, this isn't really my world. And we were doing such a stupid show together, like just so silly, that it just felt not great timing with what was happening. So I stepped away, and I wanted to go towards joy and lightness. Like, I just really, really needed that. And so that's really what I wanted to do. And I wanted to, yes, we have gone into some politics, but in general, it's not heavy on that side. And I wanted it to just be something that was a joyful world, LGBTQ, but not only that and not, I just wanted it to be silly.

49:03Kara Swisher:You're right. You're not political, but this documentary was very political without being explicitly political. You had the lives of two people who are not what society thinks about going through, thinks about a couple, and of course, just acting like it's just the way it is kind of thing. And the same thing with your show, which is actually climbing the charts rather nicely. You mean Handsome? Yes, Handsome. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because it's, you know, it's not just about comedy. It's about three friends, essentially, right? But it's certainly just by existing, it's political, right? It's political.

49:39Kara Swisher:Yeah, in some ways, you know. You're also doing a lot of different things. Obviously, you're an actor with recurring roles on Star Trek and Morning Show, by the way. May I pay you a compliment? I have met the character you play dozens of times. Every billionaire I know has that person. And I don't know how you frigging nailed that, but would you mind explaining to me how you decided to play it that way? Because the chiefs of staff are the most evil people in technology of all the billionaires, just so you know. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And I honestly, it was more so that I worked with somebody that had kind of like a parallel ranking in their world.

50:26It wasn't tech or anything like that. And I just applied any sort of memory and feeling about this person that I worked with. And I was like, I'm just going to go for it and hope, you know, they'll give me a note one way or the other. And, you know, I more so identify as a comedian. And so here I am on this very hyper-traumatic show. And, yeah, I was relieved that whatever I was going for seemed to— Oh, you did.

51:05Kara Swisher:They actually asked me about the journalism part. I'm like, no, you don't get almost any of that, right? But her, that's the one. Well, and I have to say there's something also comforting because I don't first and foremost identify as an actor. I've known Jon Hamm for years, and there's a comfort level that I have with him just as a person that I felt like I could fall in line with this dynamic more comfortably. Yeah, absolutely. I have these friends from my childhood. My friends from childhood, they'll reach out and they're so confused that I am acting. Believe me, I am too. But they'll be like, I'm sitting here on my couch in Texas watching you on screen with Jon Hamm.

52:00And I'm like, how the hell did this happen?

52:04Kara Swisher:So how the hell did this happen? I have just a few more questions. Of all the things you do career-wise right now, what would you like, speaking of controlling your life, what would you like to do more of? What would you like to do that you haven't done yet? And if you could do one thing, which of the one things, and what would you like know more of this? I'm done with this particular part of my life. Well, I mean, I remember years ago, it was recommended that I branch out from stand-up and just try other things because sometimes comedians can just get stuck in this. Crusty. Yeah. And so I thought, okay, I guess I'll try that.

52:50And I've tried acting, producing, writing. My wife and I have co-directed and I've directed stand-up specials. I think that I'm not good at talking to a lot of people and dealing with a lot of people. I like to just do what I do and be done with the day. And so I think I'll always do some amount of stand-up, but I really, really loved producing this documentary. And it was such a compartmentalized joy because obviously my friend was dying, but the process and the people involved that really were so focused on making this about love and positivity. And there's, you probably know this well too, that there's always a weirdo rattling around in some sort of project or there wasn't in this.

53:54And I just love really basic stuff. I just love feeling good and feeling good about what I'm doing and who I'm surrounded with. Half of the shows I work on, like TV shows, I love connecting with people between scenes. I love it. I love it so much. So I think anything I do, I just want to maintain the life I have. I don't need to own the world or Hollywood. That doesn't drive me. I want to maintain this tremendous life that I have. I know people say this, but I really am putting it into action of, like, wanting to be surrounded by good and good people and whatever that brings. I get it. I can be talked into directing again.

54:47I don't want to direct. But I just, I'm open. If it's a good vibe, I'm in.

54:57Kara Swisher:So it sounds like the documentary certainly had impact in that way of creating documentaries. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. It was, it was, and everybody that worked on it walked away with the same feeling. I mean, just even as I told you, the crew continued to fly out to rural Colorado to visit these people. These were compelling people. Yeah, of course. But it was like, I sat in an Airbnb. I wanted to just be with these people by the fire. That's what I'm looking for. I want that kind of like - Well, you're talking about collaboration. You're talking about real collaboration as opposed to - Oh my God, I love collaboration so much.

55:38I love being surrounded by people that have, I guess because I'm a failure dropout, I'm so used to not having information. No, you didn't drop out.

55:46Kara Swisher:You walked out. Try to read. Do not. Don't retell the story. Drop out is different than what you fucking. Yes, I walked out. And you said. I took control. I walked out. I'll see you later. Goodbye. Yes. By the way, I heard you called me a power lesbian on your handsome show, according to my wife. Yes. This is accurate. You are. It's true. It's absolutely. It's a hundred fucking. I'm a power person. I would say we can go beyond lesbian. But lesbian is good because it scares white men. So you and your wife, Stephanie, are creative collaborators. I heard you were working on an all-lesbian action film.

56:25Kara Swisher:Can you explain this to me? The writer-director, Zack Snyder, he was making this movie called Army of the Dead, and one of his actors got in trouble for sexual assault, harassment, all of that. And then he said he was sitting in the editing bay, and he was like, I can't release this movie with this guy now. And he had already finished editing it, and then he called me, he erased that guy, that actor, and then had me shoot an entire action film alone on a green screen. and I was thinking, this is a massive international cast. I'm sure I'm just going to be this small role that nobody's going to notice me.

57:13That's my self-esteem there. But also people were so kind of classically hot. And anyway, so we finished the movie, it goes out, and then I go viral for being sexy in this film. Oh, okay. And it was so unexpected. I was like, wait, my phone's exploding. I don't know. I'm not walking around going, oh, my God, you know, check me out. And so my phone's exploding. I was so confused. And then, yeah. And so I called Zach and I said, I'm hearing it from straight men, gay men, gay women, and straight women that they think I'm hot in this movie. What if we just went for it and everyone's a hot lesbian?

58:10Yeah, I love it. Yeah. And he was like, oh, my God. Yes. Let's make that movie. And so, who knows? It's a Hollywood project. We're in the process of putting the script together. Yeah. I mean, listen. Picture this poster. Okay. We have the name of the film. Yeah. And then it says, Hot Lesbian Action. Come on. That's how I sold him on the Zoom. Everybody. Everybody. Who wouldn't like it?

58:41Kara Swisher:But I, you know what? Who? Come on. It's just, I don't know what else to say. I think it sells itself. It does. Absolutely. It would sell. Everybody would go see the movie with hot lesbian action. Yes. Yeah. I like it. I'm sold. I'm there. Do you have a name for the film? Hot lesbian action right now. Well, no, as of now, the movie is called Deviants. It takes place back in some old-timey days. Right. Right. Some closeted deviants. Great. I don't know. I think we'll just have to end on that because we were talking about grief and this is about joy. I think that's a fantastic idea. I think it's an amazing idea.

59:22Thank you.

59:22Kara Swisher:They're making the TV show of my book, Burn Book. And they said, what do you need for this? The production company. And I said, all I want is a believable lesbian playing me. That's all I have to do. Just a believable lesbian. What about me? You're too old. I'm old. It has to be a 30-year-old. It has to be someone who's 30 who's just getting— I'll dye my hair. Yeah, yeah, you will? No, you're too old. I'm too old. Like, all these people are too—we need a 30-year-old. You're too old to play you. I am too old to play me, so I can't do it. Anyway, this has been a delight. Thank you so much. Come see me in the good light.

59:58Kara Swisher:It's streaming on Apple TV and showing its, like, theaters. I cannot recommend it enough. It is heartfelt, joyful, and sad, but also incredibly funny, which is the best part of it. Well, thank you so much for having me.

1:00:39Kara Swisher:If not, a harpist is not playing your song. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

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