Gavin Newsom on His Memoir, Trump, and Plans for 2028

11:14Kara Swisher:It's an unusual thing to pick at the beginning of your book.

11:16Gavin Newsom:Because we have voracious appetites. Consumption, overconsumption, there's sort of an unctuousness. And in so many ways, extractions, water, of course, marks so much of the consideration and consciousness around that.

11:28Kara Swisher:What would you say your voracious impulse was?

11:29Gavin Newsom:Well, I've had many, I imagine. And I think many of them are described in this book.

11:35Kara Swisher:Yeah, they are.

11:35Gavin Newsom:I was, of course, describing the state, not my state of being, but the state's sort of history in relationship. Go West, young man, go West. This notion of California being a state of dreamers, of doers, of entrepreneurs, but so much of our politics is defined by water policy, defined by consumption, some cases overconsumption, defined by scarcity, not just abundance. And so this notion of voraciousness. Yeah, it was interesting.

12:04Kara Swisher:So I'm curious, so what prompted you to write the book aside from the obvious reasons of running for president? Now, let me say...

12:17Kara Swisher:We're not going to be playing that game that they like to do on CNN. Now, reviews are mixed. Have you read the reviews?

12:27Gavin Newsom:I literally have not. Oh, good. I can do that for you. Okay, God bless.

12:32Kara Swisher:These are kind of interesting. They just can't give you... I think it's beautifully written, I have to say. I liked it a lot. But he can be both irritatingly slick and refreshingly resolute. That was one of them.

12:43Gavin Newsom:That was about the book or me?

12:45Kara Swisher:You. Well, the book. You in the, it's your memoir. It is you. This one I liked. It's like hillbilly elegy, but for middle-class alcoholics in the Bay Area with close ties. To petroleum magnets. Because when I think of you, I think of J.D. Vance. I do not. You know, it's, no, I don't. I like the audience. I don't. Know your audience.

13:11Gavin Newsom:That was a joke. He's, we'll get to him in a minute.

13:17Kara Swisher:And so what prompted you to do that? Do you feel like you had to write a book?

13:22Gavin Newsom:Oh, the opposite. I was writing a book about something else as I just described. And so that was the journey. And look, this book is dedicated to my kids so they can continue the story. And the great thing is, you don't have to like it. You don't have to like me. But I finally was able to tell my story and give you my perspective. I stress tested my own assumptions and try to crack open, go a little bit deeper. And I don't often see that. Maybe these reviewers do in other political books. And I just, I did it, you know, I didn't do it for the third thing. I didn't do it for the reviews. I didn't do it for the sales.

14:03Gavin Newsom:I did it because I wish my parents had done something like this. I didn't know about my mom's relationship to what Jen was introducing a moment ago. The reason she didn't want me to run in so many ways is shaped by the fact that her marriage ended because my father's ambitions in politics. She never told me. I didn't understand that. I always resented her for not wanting me to be in politics, never fully understanding that. I didn't understand her own struggles. You know, there's a scene in the book where she's, as a young girl, is thrown against the fireplace by her father with a gun to her head and her sister's head.

14:38Gavin Newsom:My grandfather threatening to kill my mom and her sister. My grandfather eventually committed suicide. He was a prisoner of war. I didn't understand how broken he became after that experience of the march in Corregidor. I didn't understand my grandmother's parents and how they were part of the whole Red Scare, how close my great-grandfather was to Oppenheimer and the Bay Area. We found all these old FBI files. And so the reason I wrote it is because it started to reveal itself. It wrote itself. in all of these stories.

15:12Kara Swisher:Because your last book was more wonky, more...

15:14Gavin Newsom:Yeah, the last book was a policy book. This is not a policy book. And it's not about me. It's about the people that shaped me. It's about, it's a love letter to my mom. It's a love letter to single moms that are out there struggling every single day with kids. It's, you know, and it's a messy story. It's life. And so I did not write this to sanitize anything. I didn't want to explain anything away. I just, you know, it's just like, let it go. And I, you know, I hope, and maybe to the extent, one sec, just on this, because I think it's important. I hope you've seen in my politics generally this last year, I'm hardly being timid if you've seen my social media.

15:56Gavin Newsom:Yeah. You know, I just, I'm on the other side, honestly. And so the book's a reflection of that, my politics. And it's just, it's for the first time in my life, I'm taking a deep breath.

16:08Kara Swisher:for different reasons. You're mentioning this a lot. Your parents were divorced when you were young. Your mom didn't come from money. Your dad was a state judge. He was also close, confident to one of the wealthiest families in the world, the Gettys. And even though you weren't wealthy, you grew up around that wealth because of that. Talk about how that shaped your worldview as a kid and moving between these two worlds. One of the things you've long complained about is this Prince Gavin label that you get. You talk about it a lot in the book, and I don't know if it reinforces it, but you discuss it.

16:40Gavin Newsom:Yeah, I talk about how I played into it.

16:42Kara Swisher:Yeah.

16:42Gavin Newsom:I talk about how I reinforced it through my own actions, how complicit I am.

16:46Kara Swisher:So talk a little bit about that because it's what you're called in the book supposedly privileged upbringing, right? This image.

16:53Gavin Newsom:Well, I'd be doing a disservice to my mom who had two, three jobs quite literally almost her entire life up until the end when she was working for me, ironically, in the small businesses I have. And the reason we were a foster family, in many respects, was just my mom's grit, hard work, just making ends. We had people living in the house, strangers. She lived in the living room for a good part of our life. We kind of raised ourselves, and sort of latchkey kids in the language and vernacular of the past. And it was just the struggles she had raising us and the lack of support that I felt that I ever provided her.

17:36Gavin Newsom:I talk about Hillary being the rock and being the rock star. And I relate that in part of this book. You know, she died about 20 years ago. And she died in this respect. Let me describe it. I pick up, get to the office, and I get a voice message. And it says, hi, honey, it's your mom. And I will be around through next Thursday. That will be the last day of my life. If you're interested, you may want to drop by before then, which is a hell of a voicemail. I did what anyone would do. I immediately called my sister and like, what's going on? And she read me the right act, said, you know what's going on is you're not paying attention.

18:22Gavin Newsom:You're just some young, you're just focused on yourself. You're grinding away, doing your thing. You're not paying attention to your mom. My mom's breast cancer had come back. I'd frankly taken it for granted that, you know, she'll be fine the second time. Sure. And so she did an assisted suicide. And it was illegal at the time, which is interesting. And by the way, pretty profound for me. And I've struggled with it all my life. I mean, we, you know, the family was there together. Everyone said their goodbyes. I'd spent a few days with her before. She was struggling in deep pain. We had a courageous doctor who was willing to lose his license to support this.

18:57Gavin Newsom:And my responsibility was just to give her two pills before the doctor came, just to relax her a little bit before he did the actual cocktail. And she was in there and she had a book and she really waited for just Hillary and I to be there as the last people with her. And I wanna talk with my sister right here, a little out of school, but it was very intense as the doctor left and it was a process that unfolded over five, 10 minutes. And my mother coming in and out of state, talking about our childhood, looking at these photos. and Hillary looked at me and I looked at her, I said, it's okay. And we were both crying and she just ran out.

19:36Gavin Newsom:And then I was sort of stuck and I didn't know if I should leave. I didn't know what to do. And I was with her for those last minutes. And there was no, you know, the credits didn't roll. It wasn't some wonderful romantic ending. It was deep breaths and struggle. And I remember holding her hand. And then I remember putting my head down on her chest for 10 minutes, just crying and saying things to her that I didn't have the guts to say five minutes before when she was alive and feeling tremendous shame. And I struggled with that for years and years and years. And it's only through the process, seriously, through the process of writing this, that again, I started to let it go.

20:18Kara Swisher:To me, she's the center character in the book. She's a center character.

20:21Gavin Newsom:And she's, And that's what Jen described is the grit and the rock. And that's the relationship.

20:28Kara Swisher:You also call her in the book impenetrable. And you recall when she told you, quote, it's okay to be average when you were struggling with dyslexia too. There was a lot of hard truths.

20:37Gavin Newsom:Well, the big part of the book as well is talking about, yeah, something that's familiar. And I met someone in the back. And thank you. Beautiful young girl who said, thank me for being honest about my learning disability because she's struggling with it as well. And a big part of this book is that relationship to my own academic challenges, my own insecurity that that marks, my own anxiety, and the fact that I'm still that guy. You don't over, you know, it doesn't go away. You have to sort of work around it. It's the reason, you know, I talk about not reading speeches because it's not because I don't want to have someone write a speech and then I'll look at the paper and read it.

21:19Gavin Newsom:It's that I can't. I can do teleprompters. That's it. And that's not easy. And I can't stand doing them. And so it's, you know, that's the guy in the back. That's the guy with the sweaty hands and, you know, the pounding heart beat. But it's also the heart of the story with my mom, because I never appreciated how hard it was for her to have to raise a kid that was always trying to quit, that literally was running out out of schools. I talk a lot about that, being faking, being sick, going to school, to school, to school. That's why we ended up in Marin because I bounced around schools in San Francisco and she couldn't take it anymore.

21:53Gavin Newsom:And the relationship that I had with my own kids that were struggling with reading. And it was like a moment you're like, oh God, it wasn't just about me. It's about my mom and not to have her back where I can just thank her for all those sacrifices and how hard that was so I hated her, to your point, when she said it's okay to be average. And it took 15 years till I sat there with my kids struggling, realized, wait, I said, she was just saying it's okay to be you. And in her own exhaustion, it was just like, you don't have to be someone else. And so again, this notion, just let it go. And this cathartic nature of this whole process.

22:33Kara Swisher:The idea of letting this mask go that you talked about. One of the things, Now, your mother didn't want you to go into politics. She told you, quote, get out before it's too late. I think it's too late. But your father's dream, of course, was to be a politician, as you mentioned. How did you reconcile these competing dreams your parents had for you? And you fell into your dad's footsteps in many ways.

23:00Gavin Newsom:Well, I'll never forget the day the recall qualified. I was like, mom was right, you know. and there's plenty of those moments. I mean, this is, you know, my God. I mean, this is, it's been a hell of a run here. And by the way, I can't believe it's taken me this long. All because of one person who's sitting here today, Willie Brown. Willie is literally the reason I'm sitting up here today, period, full stop. Would not have happened without him. And, you know, we could talk. there's some funny stories, I think, about getting schooled in a different way by Willie Brown about how politics works. But yeah, no, I've always tried to reconcile this.

23:49Gavin Newsom:My mom just wanted me to be happy. And she struggled with that all her life. She self-medicated. And I talk about jugs of Safeway wine. She tried to go to bed early because she would wake up early and just hard work and hard enough, just raising us on her own. again, came from no money, no wealth. And my father was distant when we were growing up. And so money was always an issue. It was a stress. And it was always stressful for her, to your question earlier, the relationship I had to him, which was one of adventure. And it was always connected, yes, to the Getty family. Once a year, we would go on these unbelievable vacations.

24:26Gavin Newsom:And I described many of them in the book. But I would always go back home to a mom who would open the door and go, hi, honey, hope you had a wonderful trip. Good night. And would never talk about it again. And so I write about that and that sort of struggle of not being an imposter necessarily, but also never feeling comfortable. And I never forget, there's a story in here when I was a teenager and we went to Spain and some fancy party, King One.

24:57Kara Swisher:This is the coming out party for the princess of Spain.

25:00Gavin Newsom:It was one of these just over the top.

25:03Kara Swisher:Yeah, I went to that too, but go ahead.

25:04Gavin Newsom:Yeah. I remember you fondly.

25:09Kara Swisher:Yeah. As if.

25:12Gavin Newsom:And those high heels that you were walking around in.

25:15Kara Swisher:Oh, God. Another life.

25:17Gavin Newsom:But there was, I'll never forget with Ann and Gordon, San Francisco.

25:23Kara Swisher:All right, we're in Spain. Keep going.

25:25Gavin Newsom:A portion of the family. But no, with their four kids. and I was walking around the four kids and I was sort of the fifth. I was the same age as Andrew, became a roommate years later. But Andrew and I were walking around and we were there and I just remember this couple, this very fancy couple going, oh, the Getty boys. It's so wonderful to have you here in Spain. And the whole thing, fabulous. Californians and said, which one are you to me? And I went, I'm Gavin Newsom, not one of the four. and immediately, physically, she sifted and had no interest whatsoever in engaging with me. And it was a moment where you just immediately knew who you were and who you weren't.

26:08Gavin Newsom:And again, it's that identity that I talk about a lot because it shapes a lot. Those privileges were absolutely real. Those doors opened that would never have opened without that. But the relationship to that and the relationship to the truth of who I was and where I went back home and it just is never for me. I struggled to tell that story. And as I say, my mom deserves the truth. And that is part of why I wrote this book as well.

26:36Kara Swisher:Though you seemed, most people think of you that way, seeming very fancy Prince Gavin, right?

26:43Gavin Newsom:And yeah, no, I get it. And you put gel in your hair and I talk about that.

26:48Kara Swisher:You do. I finally found out your secret.

26:50Gavin Newsom:The blue suits, the whole thing. I mean, you know, look, I'm not naive. even though, you know, I even talk about the way I give speeches, move my hands, you know, using words like, all this stuff. Yeah. And all that mock 24 seven, it just is what it is. And so what, one of the things I, again, maybe it took me to 58, whatever years. I now realize you can't control what you can't control. Right. You know, and all my life I've been trying to control all this, control the narrative, control people think about me and I've struggled with it. And And again, in the process of writing this book, let it go.

27:26Gavin Newsom:And I'm serious. I hope everyone here writes their own story. And for no other reason, just to find grace. The word for me, grace, there's humility, a lot of humility in this book. But just to find that and let it go.

27:41Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

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32:00Kara Swisher:As mayor, you are best known for making San Francisco the first city to issue marriages license to same-sex couples.

32:14Kara Swisher:I got married during that time here in San Francisco It was a great benefit At the time it was against state and federal law And only about a third of Californians supported it Now history is on your side here And one of the interesting things I had an encounter with a very well-known politician Who was saying Gavin's finished I remember. And they said, and I'll never forget this, said, Americans aren't ready for gay marriage. This is a very well-known politician. And for some reason, I stopped being a reporter and I said, it's called leadership. And they were like, and I was like, sorry, that's, it doesn't matter if people are ready.

32:56Kara Swisher:But, you know, there is, what you did was really forward. And there's an uncomfortable peril to Trump in a weird way that he's raft of executive orders also defying the law. Talk about it's okay when a leader defies the law, and that's leadership, and when it's not okay.

33:14Gavin Newsom:I love the question. You know, I see Steve Kava's here, and many couples that were part of that winter of love. 4 ,036 couples, 46 states, six countries came here in February to just say two magical words. They weren't even that remarkable, there's magical, I do. And, you know, I talk a lot about that story at Paul Pelosi's here and how, Paul, I took your seat at when Nancy, Madam Speaker, was kind enough to invite me. I was a newly minted mayor, went back to meet with congressional delegation. And coincidentally was the same day that President Bush was given his State of the Union. And I was going to leave.

34:00Gavin Newsom:We had a reception in the Capitol and the speaker asked, would you interested in sticking around for the event? I said, I don't have a ticket. She goes, I don't think Paul's gonna go. And so I took his ticket, went back up on the rafters and sat there. And I'll never forget after the end of the speech and you can go back to the speech, it was a reelection speech and it ended with it. We need a constitutional amendment to make marriage between a man and a woman and people standing ovation, the whole thing. But we're walking back and no one could bring cell phones in. So you're waiting in line for the cell phones.

34:30Gavin Newsom:And I'll never forget, true story. As I'm standing there waiting in line, the couple behind me was just talking about the speech and how proud they were, the president. And one of them said, I'm just, he said the words, I'm just so sick and tired of the homosexual agenda. And it was the way they said homosexual that I literally turned around. And I was about to introduce myself as a mayor of San Francisco. I didn't have the guts or courage. And I meekly turned, got my phone. And instead of going back down to see Nancy and the congressional delegation after speech, I walked in the opposite direction outside of the Capitol.

35:13Gavin Newsom:And I'll never forget the door locked and I couldn't get back in. And it was a cold night and I called Steve Cava, who was my chief of staff. And I said, did you hear the speech? He goes, oh, yes, sir. I said, well, we need to do something about it. None of us knew what we're gonna do. Came back, fast forward this, a few days later and we decided that we were gonna marry one couple, Phyllis Lyon and Del Martin. They'd been together some 47 years and we were gonna file a lawsuit. But word got out that we were gonna do this and the federal courts were right across the street and they said that they were gonna get a temporary restraining order.

35:49Gavin Newsom:They were gonna stop us from moving. And then we realized, I think Daniel Lurie's here as well, well, it's good to be mayor, Daniel. I realized I was mayor and I can open City Hall up earlier than nine. And so we called Phyllis and Del and we said, get here at eight. And we got to get this done by nine o 'clock because they're likely to shut us down. And they got married. I wasn't there. I was up in the office, ironically, because I didn't want to make it political. And that's when we had a few other couples that were there. I said, well, what about us? and, you know, after that all hell broke loose.

36:26Gavin Newsom:So, so you just.

36:31And it was, and I remember,

36:39Gavin Newsom:I say that we would love, you know, Arnold's like, you know, it's chaos, you know, San Francisco. And people were critical, but the most critical part, I want to get specific to your question. It was a great question. I'll get to it. Okay.

36:56Gavin Newsom:but some of the people I admire most in political life, the ones that all told me just three weeks prior, you know, the one universal advice, just do what you think is right. It goes by in a flash. You know, you're a new mate, just do what you think is right. Those same folks were some of the most critical. And the party was, you may not recall this, I was hardly favored nation status at the DNC. They were like, you don't really have to go to Boston for the convention. You know, it's all good. You're new mayor. You should really focus on homelessness. And, you know, and so I went through that process of trying to figure out the question you just asked.

37:35Gavin Newsom:I was asking myself, I was being condemned by people I admired, people I really revered, including leaders in the LGBTQ community that were like, who the hell is this guy to do this?

37:45Kara Swisher:So do you regret it at all, even today?

37:48Gavin Newsom:No, because I said in that, and this is what I'm describing in the book, I got into it and I got frustrated and flustered. And I was at the Balboa Cow. I'll never forget it. It's in the book. And Joe really pushed me. Fierce lawyer, amazing advocate. And he goes, he really pushed me. Tell me why. Why the hell are you doing this? I said, Joe, because it's the right thing to do. And I remember saying that. And Joe literally turned around to my uncle Brennan and my dad said, boys, it's the right thing to do. And he'll be doing it tomorrow morning. And so that's, I was struggling with that, you know, and I started, I was, you know, being condemned, having second doubts and figuring out, you know, yeah, we broke the law.

38:36Gavin Newsom:But when the court said stop, we stopped. It wasn't a, you know, speed bump. It was a stop sign. The rule of law applied. And that's what we did. We applied the law. We pushed the envelope. We used not just our formal authority, but our moral authority. That's the frame of my response to your question. And that is one thing Donald Trump is incapable of. He doesn't understand the difference between formal authority and moral authority. And that's the decision.

39:08Kara Swisher:All right. Thank you for that answer. So I'm going to move on to some other topics. You recently scored a huge win with redistricting California.

39:20Kara Swisher:And Democrats are picking up five House seats. It might not be enough to overcome Republican gerrymanders. There's a threat of obviously illegal executive orders to stop or at least slow voting. Talk about what Democrats need to do now to avoid getting shut out of power. Speaking of someone who uses his authority in executive orders.

39:42Gavin Newsom:I've been a little critical of my party. This is not a knock at any individual. The party is many parts. not, you know, and one body, but it's many parts, that we constantly on the receiving end of, you know, CRT, DEI, ESG, we're constantly being shape-shift. We're not shifting the conversation. We're on the defense so often. That's why I started showing up on Fox. And that's why, you know, I debated Ron DeSantis a few years ago and Sean Hannity, both at the same time. And just to try to lean in, just to take responsibility. Again, by the way, it's in the process of writing this book, where I was just like, for things to change, I've got to change.

40:22Gavin Newsom:And I've got to own up to my own complicity at the moment, my own timidity, my own anxieties, my own insecurities. You know, don't just preach, practice. And so it was all shape-shifting at the same time. And I started leaning in and started getting a little bit more aggressive. It came after Dobbs. And I was really worried. I was like, what the hell's wrong? They're part of the surround sound, the propaganda networks, and, you know, just the bullshit, the illusion rules, not facts of Fox and Newsmax and One American News and the right-wing echo chamber and how we were constantly on the defense.

40:56Gavin Newsom:And so over the course of the last few years, I've been iterating, but after that recall, where there was finality, talk about humility, I was like, this weaponization, I experienced it in a different way. The RNC, Newt Gingrich, Mike Huckabee, all these guys trying to take us out. And so it began the process of shifting. The fires in LA, and this is, let me get to the redistricting. The fires in LA set it back again. You know, I was down there within a couple hours and Trump was just, I was there with Biden. The president of the United States and the governor down there within a few hours of this fire.

41:38Gavin Newsom:And Trump is just blowing us up, saying it was because we didn't turn on the water faucet from Northern California. The sprinklers weren't working. And you think this, but you like, but I was started turning on, I'm watching Fox. I'm there's working on the next recall. And I'm, and I'm getting friends saying, why didn't you send the water down? I'm like, you're kidding. Elon Musk is doubling down. And I'm like, this is the middle of the fire. And I'm like, holy shit, we are not prepared for this. And that's when this, our social media began to shift a little. We put a California facts website up.

42:12Gavin Newsom:We started to take it to the next level, but it was June of last year when Donald Trump federalized 4 ,000 National Guard and sent 700 active duty Marines, not overseas, but to the second largest city in the United States of America, that everything shifted. That was the red line. And that's when we began the process of drawing a line and said, you know what? We've got to significantly shift our tone and tone. And I'll just remind you, and I know this is long-winded, but I want to remind everybody, Donald Trump called Greg Abbott demanding five seats. He said he was quote-unquote entitled, the president of the United States said he was entitled to five seats in a mid-decade redistricting to rig the 2026, November of this year election because he knows he's going to get crushed.

43:05Gavin Newsom:He's going to be shellacked in this election. He knows he's going to lose. So he's trying to rig the election. But what the difference was, and I talked to Nancy Pelosi and Zoloftgren and others, I never expected what they were able to achieve in a five-day period, which was consensus. And few folks expected, they expected us as Democrats, maybe to try to win the argument. Maybe we just try to show how right we are and how wrong Trump is. And maybe we can get an op-ed in the New York Times. And instead, we fought fire with fire. We punched a bully back in the map and we put that map back on the ballot.

43:48Gavin Newsom:And we won and we kicked their ass. And Donald Trump lost. And the Republican Party lost. And that shows what we're capable of. When we fight fire with fire, conviction, The problem with the Democratic Party so often is we appear weak. And we've got to be stronger and we've got to be more assertive. And so that's, you know, it's the spirit a little bit of marriage equality. It's the spirit, I think, that is required of this moment.

44:11Kara Swisher:The question would be, which I think a lot of people are worried about, is becoming too much like them, right? Every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours. Hi, I'm Jennifer Welch, co-host of I've Had It podcast. And the big question I want to ask you is you recently said that Democrats need to be more culturally normal. And, Governor, I think that's a very dangerous statement because me, a very mouthy woman in a Bible Belt state, if I were culturally normal here, I would have to submit to my husband. And I wouldn't be able to have a podcast wherein I could critique every little thing you say.

44:53Governor Newsom, do you think this is dangerous language for you to use to an electorate that

44:59Kara Swisher:should be embracing diversity across the board? Diversity should be normal. Well, I mean, diversity should be normal.

45:07Gavin Newsom:I mean, who's been the biggest champion of diversity? No, I get that. We've been, hold on. No, but I just don't accept the frame of the question. All right, okay. No, but let me answer the question. I don't accept that frame at all. All right. Diversity, that's our greatest strength. We don't tolerate our diversity. We celebrate our diversity. We live in the most diverse state in the world's most diverse democracy. 27 % of this state's foreign born. We practice pluralism. That's a point of pride. That's a core value. She should know that. When it comes to the issue of forensics, of understanding how we gain power and get back in the majority, not just this year, but get back on our feet when not just the house, but the Senate and win back the white house.

45:45Gavin Newsom:I think it's right to reflect on the past and distress tested. And there's been a lot of forensics, but not, I think, the kind of autopsy that would ultimately illuminate what are our strengths, what are our weaknesses. So in that context, it's part of that larger discovery. I've talked about this on my podcast on multiple occasions. I have 20, I'm not making this up, 27 pages of my own autopsy on what the hell happened last November in the election, trying to understand the contours. Was it incumbency? Was it interest rates? Was it inflation scars? Was it 107 days versus 119 days? Across the spectrum.

46:25Gavin Newsom:And so I'm trying to have conversations publicly in that respect. That's what I'm doing on the podcast. That's why I'm inviting people in that I know are uncomfortable because I'm trying to understand the contours of the other side. So we have ability then to compete. And that goes to why I agree with the frame that set up that question. And that is, no, I get it. You know, we're putting a mirror up to Donald Trump, unquestionably. And the day we did that, Trump wasn't complaining about some of those all cap tweets. It was all the folks on Fox that seemed to be so offended. And they were saying, boy, where's his wife?

47:10Gavin Newsom:She should wash his mouth out with soap. This is so unbecoming of a governor to talk like this. Lacking any situational awareness, they haven't said a damn word about Donald Trump dressing up as the Pope or Superman or putting his face on Mount Rushmore. They didn't say a damn word. They've counted us that forever. So I understand that instinct. And part of me at first was like, do we really want to do this? But we need to do it. We need to put that mirror up to Trump and Trumpism. And it's not, because none of this is normal. And my whole point is this, we will lose our country. We will lose our republic.

47:51Gavin Newsom:This guy is not screwing around. It wasn't just the federalization of the National Guard, which we said in June was a preview of things to come. And you saw that in DC. You saw that in Chicago. You've seen it in Minnesota. We said it when we kicked off the campaign for Prop 50. You may recall the Democracy Center. And there was a guy out there with dozen masked men trying to intimidate people from walking in the event by the name of Greg Bovino, dressed up as if he just got off the set of a 1930s movie. If you catch my drift. And we said, he is a thing, a preview of things to come. And it's exactly what's happened.

48:28Gavin Newsom:You've seen Bovino all across the country. You saw him on election day, the Bortak teams right there in front of the Dodger Stadium trying to intimidate our diverse communities on election day. These guys are not screwing around. I was just in Fulton County. Let me finish because this is important.

48:44Kara Swisher:Okay, but I want you to answer your question. Because it's important.

48:48Gavin Newsom:Wake up. He's in Fulton County. We met with the head of their elections commission. He's trying to take over the election in Fulton County, a critical county in this state. He's trying to federalize the voting. 15 states minimum, he said, at least. The SAVE Act. That's not about voter ID. It's about who can vote. It's about voter registration. This guy is not screwing around. The most corrupt president in American history. And we will lose our country if we don't fight back and push back. So, yes, I cringe sometimes at my social media as well. But I think it's important in this environment that we call out the bullshit that we're seeing 24-7.

49:39Kara Swisher:But you were talking about... I think she was addressing Democrats, how they... When you said culturally normal, I didn't know what that meant. And you know what?

49:51Gavin Newsom:For me, I was stuck on some of the issues within the prisons. And those are hard to explain. Culturally normal doesn't mean right or wrong. It means how people feel about certain issues that sometimes are difficult issues to explain. And, you know, respectfully, there are some difficult issues. There are. That are difficult to explain. And in terms of winning elections, how we navigate that's important. And let's go back to marriage equality. It's in the book. There are a number of elected officials that blame me for the outcome of the election that November. So I don't think it's an unfair thing to talk about how we win elections and a sensitivity on the basis of my own relationship to that and understanding the relationship to how we look at the larger map in this country.

50:41Kara Swisher:Although some might say that's putting on a mask that you're not really, you know, you talk about masks.

50:46Gavin Newsom:I'm not suggesting you don't speak your truth. Right. I'm not suggesting any of that. It's what you emphasize, what you disproportionately focus on and how you navigate a world where they're again trying to shape shift and we are on the defense. Again, that's why I went on the offense as it relates to the banning bitch and the cultural purge that the right wing is doing. And that's why we are iterating in that respect.

51:12Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

51:22Kara Swisher:Support for this show comes from Harvey A.I. Law is a craft forged through repetition, sharpened by judgment, perfected in the details most people never see. Practice Made Perfect is Harvey's belief in relentless refinement and turning complexity into clarity, pressure into precision, and experience into advantage. Legal work isn't just about knowing the law. It's about applying it carefully, consistently, and under real stakes. Harvey is an AI platform built specifically for legal practice, helping teams analyze large volumes of documents, draft with precision, and collaborate securely across complex matters.

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52:20Kara Swisher:Support for this show comes from Harvey AI. Law is a craft forged through repetition, sharpened by judgment, perfected in the details most people never see. Practice Made Perfect is Harvey's belief in relentless refinement and turning complexity into clarity, pressure into precision, and experience into advantage. Legal work isn't just about knowing the law. It's about applying it carefully, consistently, and under real stakes. Harvey is an AI platform built specifically for legal practice, helping teams analyze large volumes of documents, draft with precision, and collaborate securely across complex matters.

52:57Kara Swisher:It doesn't replace expertise, it strengthens it, making teams faster, more exacting, and more certain. Today, more than half of the AMLA 100 use Harvey as part of their workflow. Learn more at Harvey.ai.

53:17Gavin Newsom:When you want your spring break to feel like

53:21Kara Swisher:and your kids' pool day to feel like and your hotel bed to feel like and room service to feel like because at Hilton, hospitality feels like

53:36Gavin Newsom:Your cabana's ready. Would you like fresh towels?

53:38Kara Swisher:It matters where you stay. Book now at Hilton.com. Hilton, for this day. Let's go through some issues. You have less than a year in office. One of the most high-profile fights you're in right now is over a proposed one-time tax for billionaires. A big labor union is trying to get the measure on the upcoming ballot. You've said you're going to fight it. This is one of these issues, defining Democrats at the time when voters are worried about affordability. Talk a little bit about that fight. That fight's an interesting fight, because it also dovetails into the idea of the entire tech industry losing its fucking mind

54:19Kara Swisher:and shifting hard to the right. Should you try to woo back these people? Is that what's happening? Like Mark Zuckerberg, Mark Andreessen, and Jeff Bezos? Or do you, speaking of standing up, do voters want a leader that stands up to them? This may not be the way. The billionaire tax may not be the method.

54:37Gavin Newsom:There's two things.

54:38Kara Swisher:Yes. Four issues. Okay. there.

54:40Gavin Newsom:I'm doubling. I mean, I think there are four issues. I mean, we can get into, you know, what's going on with those three individuals you represent. We could talk about what's going on with tech more broadly. Well, we need some psychologists for that. Losing their mind. We could talk about taxation, which I did extensively in my state of the state a few weeks ago. I promoted, I wasn't defending, I actually made the case for California's progressive tax system. And I'll remind folks, 16 states taxed their poorest residents, more than California taxes its richest. Who's the high-tax state? You look at the most regressive taxes in America, that's Texas, that's Florida.

55:21Gavin Newsom:Who are the high-tax states? Yes, we have a progressive tax policy, and that means we disproportionately rely on a few taxpayers relative to the overall population. And that has benefited us greatly. It's why we have universal preschool. That's why we have universal healthcare, regardless of pre-existing conditions ability to pay. That's why we've been able to do 379, almost 380 ,000 childcare slots and subsidies. That's why we've been able to do a lot of the things we're doing. As it relates to this specific tax, do we need to have a tax policy in this country and go back to the old tax rates and consider a new tax rates for the ultra wealthy?

56:00Gavin Newsom:Absolutely. And I've been advocating for that and I believe that. But at a state basis, the challenge is Pili's ability people to move. And you've seen that. It's not anecdotal now. The number of people who have moved out of the state and how easy that is. So I'm concerned about that on the basis of the volatility of our taxes and how that can impact the progressivity of our taxes and impact our existing tax structure in a deleterious way. Final thing on that, that tax doesn't go to teachers. It doesn't support firefighters. That tax doesn't go to child care workers. That tax doesn't allow us to do, that tax is for one particular purpose, one time, and doesn't benefit.

56:42Gavin Newsom:So there's also issues I have with the details of it.

56:45Kara Swisher:With the way it was deployed, so if you were, say, president, you might do a tax. That's a very different conversation.

56:51Gavin Newsom:Different conversation. But at a state level, yeah. So you have to recognize and reconcile that reality. And it's a real reality, it just is. As is the reality that many, but not all, We haven't had this conversation, and I should be asking you. I don't know that tech has moved to the right. I think a few loudmouths have. That's correct. You look at the vast majority of folks that work in these companies, they're still voting, and from my perspective, in an enlightened way.

57:28Gavin Newsom:And a lot of those folks that have moved to the right were kind of dabbling in that space already. And I just, I think that's a component part of this. That said, man, you know, I was quoting Plutarch the other day, not in doubt, Plutarch, Plutarch. But he was a historian, which is fascinating, about 50 AD, he was warning the Athenians that the imbalance between the rich and the poor is the oldest and most fatal ailments of all republics. 2 ,000 years ago, warning about this imbalance. I mean, we're talking about the first trillionaires in this country. 10 % of folks own two-thirds of all the wealth in this country.

58:11Gavin Newsom:This is not sustainable. We have got to democratize our economy so we can save democracy. And so there is fundamental restructuring of our economy that needs to take shape. Right, and that's among the debates in the last time we did Spritroll. And that's going to be part of the debate moving forward as it relates to stabilizing the volatility in our tax structure as well. But that's, I think, a legit critique as it relates to how these guys, to your point, have reacted to this tax that conflates other aspects of it.

58:47Kara Swisher:Yeah, they're very hurt. Too bad. I always say they're so poor, all they have is money. um so let's speaking of which because that would be a federal thing um this is your last year as governor and we have just a few more you said that three damn times it's so depressing all right let's not do the exhausting coy thing no but it's three times all right i think everyone assumes you're running for president um so and you're well practiced you're well practiced in dodging the will you, I hate that question. Anyway, you did say one of your sons told you recently that he doesn't want you to run. What would compel you to run in spite of the request from your son?

59:32Gavin Newsom:Nice. Well done. Thank you.

59:34Kara Swisher:That's why I'm paid the big bucks.

59:38Gavin Newsom:Montana's here. Sorry, Montana, I'm going to lay you out a little bit. My oldest, who's 16. And she says this, I think it was, I haven't seen it, but she told me, and it may not be true. She says, I have a calendar, Dad, counting down the days till you're no longer governor. And I think she's calling it her version of liberation day. So she's a 16-year-old, if you get my drift, so she can finally be free. And so I've got that.

1:00:06Kara Swisher:She's almost 17.

1:00:07Gavin Newsom:She's almost, as she told us today, later in the calendar year. But she'll always be sweet 16 to me. And then my 14-year-old boy, though, he saw some headline that misrepresented a little bit of the facts where it said, Newsom poised to run for, you know, whatever. And he goes, texted me. He texted me and he goes, Dad, I hear you're running. Are you running for president? I said, no, I'm not. He goes, I would never, and I literally texted him. I said, I would never do that without you. He goes, good. And he says, 14-year-old boy. And he goes, good, dad, because we're too young and you need to spend more time with us.

1:00:48Gavin Newsom:And I literally, no BS, screenshot of that. I have that. And my wife reminds me of that all the time. And so does this book. Because, you know, Jen, she never said it, but she had to think it. What kind of husband are you going to be? what kind of father are you going to be? She's got a rock star dad. We just celebrated his 85th birthday last night. Four extraordinary daughters. He's the man of us. You want, I mean, like central casting. Mom and dad coached the girls teams, basically retired relatively young age to be there for his daughters. And now he's there like he was with his daughters for our grant, for my kids, his grandkids.

1:01:38Gavin Newsom:an extraordinary person. And that shaped her consciousness of life. And here I am talking about my dad and my mom and in my relationship with my dad when I was young, which is again, very distant as a father. And I can only imagine what was going through her head when we first had our kids. And so in every way, she mentioned Mimi Silbert, who's one of my heroes and saved my life in so many ways and how she really cracked me open. And I don't want to make those mistakes and I'm not going to make those mistakes. So you ask a direct question. They all have veto power. And if any one of them say no chance, I won't even give it a second thought.

1:02:21Gavin Newsom:I'm not going to screw up my marriage to this rockstar woman, this extraordinary person, my wife, and I'm not going I'm not going to scrub my time with my kids. Period.

1:02:31Kara Swisher:Full stop. That's actually a very good answer. So I'm going to go through. We have only a few minutes. We want to go through some new stuff because there's a lot going on.

1:02:41Gavin Newsom:Is this the boxer and brief part? A very quick one.

1:02:45Kara Swisher:These are a couple of news stories, and they have to do with California, too. On Friday, Trump ordered the government to stop using Anthropik's AI models. He called Anthropik the, quote, radical left AI company because it wanted to prevent the Pentagon from using the products for domestic surveillance or powering autonomous weapons without human involvement. A few hours later, OpenAI announced a deal with Pentagon. I'm not sure it has similar guardrails. I'll question that. Talk about that. We're seeing pushback here from tech, as you noted. You just said they're not as...

1:03:19Gavin Newsom:I can tell you through the prism of my subjectivity, Dario's been a real leader.

1:03:24Kara Swisher:He's the CEO.

1:03:25Gavin Newsom:The CEO of Anthropic. And so it does not surprise me because he's a person of character. He helped shape the nation's first AI frontier model, large language model regulations in the state of California, which I was proud to be part of. And he was a fierce advocate for going further and constantly pushing us to do more to address the peril, not just the promise of AI. And so he had a red line and the courage to hold that line in a way that so few CEOs do. That's why I have a Patriot site with knee pads to give to our universities and law firms and media and CEOs that are selling out to Donald Trump.

1:04:05Gavin Newsom:And Anthropic did not. And he deserves our praise and he deserves our support.

1:04:11Kara Swisher:All right. Next one. We're taping this on Saturday night about 24 hours ago. President Trump joined Israel in attacking Iran. The New York Times editorial board wrote that Trump's decision is reckless and ill-defined. On X, you linked to one of Trump's old tweets where he criticized Obama for striking Libya because of bad poll numbers. But you also wrote that Iranian leadership needs to go. Apparently, the Ayatollah has been killed. There'll be another Ayatollah, by the way. Are you worried about this move? And what do you think it stems from?

1:04:46Gavin Newsom:I think it stems from weakness masquerading as strength. It stems from his complete failure of this administration, this historic president who's historically unpopular. that is trying to distract from his failures across the spectrum. He doubled down on stupid during the State of the Union. No course correction at all. And you're absolutely right. In 2011, and he just said once, he did videos condemning, criticizing President Obama, suggesting somehow he was going to do this. And it was a desperate attempt for his reelection. But you had Tulsi Gabbard out there saying regime change is wrong. You had J.D.

1:05:24Gavin Newsom:Vance saying they lied to you. He lied to you. So reckless is the only way to describe this. He didn't describe to the American people what the end game is here. He didn't describe the existential threat of the moment, the immediacy of the crisis at hand. There wasn't one. He manufactured it. And now we're manufacturing a crisis of outcomes unknown and the uncertainty it marks at this moment. And that's Donald Trump, the chaos president, this wrecking ball president across the board. Destruction is not strength. And once again, we've seen him destroy not only our allies in relationship to the rest of the world, but we're seeing him destroy any capacity to explain fundamentally what the core American interest is at this moment to declare war, to go to war with the regime.

1:06:19Gavin Newsom:And all of this is playing out in real time. and we just pray for our troops. We pray for our allies and we pray that Donald Trump is temporary and his time is up in just three years. So are you worried that it's linked to the midterms?

1:06:38Kara Swisher:Obviously that has come up. He has an executive order ready to do all manner of nonsense around the midterm elections and elections.

1:06:45Gavin Newsom:So what I just described, again, this guy is not screwing around. What more evidence do you need? He tried to wreck this country and light democracy on fire on January 6th. He called that same Fulton County folks, look in Secretary of State for 11 ,000, 12 ,000 votes. He tried to rig the midterm elections as it relates to redistricting. And he's going about with these mass men and these Bortak teams. And these are acts of authoritarianism. He's not hiding it, nor is he hiding his disdain for any kind of independent thinking. What is his attack? All these institutions have one thing in common. His attack is on independent thinking.

1:07:18Gavin Newsom:and you're seeing my biggest concern now is what's happening with media and this concentration in the hands of just a few folks. He's deciding the prime time lineup, these places. The impact, by the way, of this deal in California will be outsized in terms of layoffs and creativity. Yeah, so this is all happening in real time. Forgive me again, you know, back to washing my mouth, you know, with soap. That's why we have to be more aggressive. That's why we have to be more vigilant. That's why we have to be stronger and much more aggressive in this moment.

1:07:58Kara Swisher:So last two questions. I will note that Epic Fury has the same initials as Epstein files. What a coincidence. The fallout, it keeps ballooning though, and the number of high-profile resignations in the wake of their release. We learned this week the files didn't include some records related to very heinous allegations, unproven, against Donald Trump. This is an issue I thought had real legs. Scott and I argued about it many months ago. I thought it was critically important, this issue. How do you look at what's unfolding with the Epstein files? Many people think the attack was related to getting...

1:08:37Gavin Newsom:Well, there's got to be something he's hiding. I mean, give me a break. No one has worked so hard at making this go away than Pam Bondi on behalf of Donald Trump and the FBI. And by the way, that same DOJ, he's demanding$230 million of money. The IRS, he's demanding$10 billion. Please, I hope you saw that. He's demanding a settlement of$10 billion. He says he's gonna negotiate with himself. And he may, because he's a man of character, may give it to charity. this is the guy that got not just a 400 million dollar plane because he called guitars that I want 400 million dollar plane but got close to a billion dollars to retrofit the plane the Trump story is a story of corruption it's a corruption story the Whitcoff family the Trump family world financial literary the tariffs are a corruption story why do you think he was weeping around the loss of the tariff because that was about his personal portfolio is much or more than anything else.

1:09:41Gavin Newsom:So you ask about the Epstein file. It's all in that same place and shape. I was with John Ossoff the other day down in Georgia and I love what he played, this notion of the Epstein class. It's all shaped in that. All of these trips overseas, you know, they have one thing in common. The family goes out first to get the deal done, the UAE, get the$2 billion for the crypto. In return, you get high-valued computer chips. Same thing that happened on the tariffs, 26 % reduction as it relates to Vietnam. They got the golf course, the Trump family, fast track, a billion and a half dollars. All happening in open sight, but there's clearly things in the Epstein files that Donald Trump doesn't want you to know.

1:10:28Gavin Newsom:And my biggest fear on this, said it the other day, I really fear this. And I hope this is not the case. And that's why it's absolutely critical that the gavel is in the hands of Speaker Jeffries this November. It is foundational. But even with that, there's a scenario where I can see Trump starting to pardon key members of his administration. There's scenarios where that where these it's not about redaction. These things are deleted and disappear. here. That's how critical this moment is of vigilance. That's why I'm very proud of, you know, so many of these Californian leaders in Congress and Robert Garcia being a leader, a particular leader in this space that have been very aggressive.

1:11:16Gavin Newsom:And again, it's just about maintaining vigilant and not, you know, in the spirit of the wag of the dog, not continue to take our eye. We We cannot take our eye off the ball. We can't allow this to be normalized. We can't allow, don't ever, please don't use the phrase. This is just Trump being Trump. Those are deadly words. That's what he wants. It's the shock and awe. He wants to break us down. He wants to exhaust us. And that's why this is not easy. And I know our time's up, but I just want to say thank you to all of you, not just for being here tonight, not just being here in the relationship to this book and for yourselves, but for each other.

1:11:55Gavin Newsom:Thank you for showing up. San Francisco always shows up. No Kings rallies. This is the spirit of this city. And thank you for not giving in to the cynicism and all the anxiety and fear out there. And it's hard. I know it's hard. It's exhausting. This is exhausting.

1:12:13Kara Swisher:So my last question then, what is your best case scenario? And what is the one that worries you? You told MSNOW, and in some ways, J.D. Vance scares you more than Trump in a lot of ways, obviously.

1:12:25Gavin Newsom:Well, I think time of light.

1:12:26Kara Swisher:What's your best case scenario? What's your worst case scenario? Start with worst, because then we end on a high note. You get that?

1:12:35Gavin Newsom:Well, look, I'm painting a picture, and I've said this before. I mean, we're celebrating the 250th anniversary of the Founding Fathers, the best of the Roman Republic, Greek democracy, co-equal branches of government, something Trump had to deal with with the Supreme Court decision the other day and to reconcile that. The rule of law, not the rule of Don. And if it's not dawning on all of us what we're up against in the existential nature, that will reflect the worst case scenario. That we lose grip with the insidiousness of this moment and how vicious these guys are on the other side and how complicit Murdoch Inc.

1:13:16Gavin Newsom:is at this moment. in the primetime lineup at Fox and Sean Hannity and Laura Ingram and all the rest. And by the way, Laura Ingram, who's in business with Donald Trump Jr. and Chamath, whose partner on his podcast is David Sachs. You want corruption in open sight, connecting the dots to our media, the whole thing. If we don't call this out, that's the worst case there because we won't celebrate the best, this historic project of our founding fathers in the 251st anniversary. We can lose this country. We can lose our republic. The best case scenario is you keep showing up. You don't give into the cynicism, that fear and anxiety because you recognize you have agency.

1:13:58Gavin Newsom:You can shape the future. You're the antidote to that. And so that's the power. It's, you know, Brandeis said it. In a democracy, the most important office is not governor or president. It's office of citizen. Active, not inert citizenship. So maintain that vigilant, maintain that energy and that daring. and keeps showing up. And if we do that, Donald Trump's presidency, as we know it, will end this November. It will end as we know it this November. So then, very last question,

1:14:31Kara Swisher:what's the name of the sequel to this? Old man in a walker? I don't know. I'm getting there.

1:14:40Gavin Newsom:I'm getting there.

1:14:40Kara Swisher:What is the sequel? That happens. What is this?

1:14:44Gavin Newsom:I don't know what the sequel is, but I will say this, and let me end on this because I appreciate it. I appreciate here talking about the book and thank you. I hope some of you read it. Don't just read the, you know, some of you are just going to look in the index to see if your name appears and I get that. By the way, I've written some personal notes in the index to say, gotcha, found you. But I hope people will see aspects of their own lives and their own journey in here and I hope people will see, you know, there may not be a sequel and I get that to the point is, I don't, you talk about my sell by date.

1:15:18Gavin Newsom:You know, I'm serious. That little anxiety inducing for me because I've always been that young man in a hurry. I've, you know, been in this process, you know, since Willie Brown appointed me in the parking and traffic commission, you know, I was like, you know, what's this guy doing next? The whole thing. And so if there's nothing next, I'm just, you know, I was finally able to put my version of events out there. I was able to tell my mom how much I loved her, even if she's not around, but I was able to say that and I was able to describe that. I was able to reflect on my own journey, my own relationship with my wife and my kids and how important they are to me and how important all of you have been to me and how important the city has been to me and how it's shaped me.

1:16:05Gavin Newsom:And I'll close on this. My dad starts in the book. He says, he didn't know what came first, the Irish cop or San Francisco. and it was a way of connecting my history to this city with his great-grandfather who was that Irish cop. My kids, sixth generation San Franciscans and how special and proud I am of this city and how proud I am to have been born in this city and how lucky we all are to be in this precious and beautiful place at this remarkable time in American history. Thank you guys, all of you. very, very much for being here today.

1:16:44Kara Swisher:Thank you for joining us. I'm sorry about my voice, but thank you very much. We appreciate it. Great to be with you. Thank you all.

1:16:52Gavin Newsom:Thanks so much for coming out.

1:16:58Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Eric Litke and Madeline LaPlante-Duby. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

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