Gloves Off with Scott Jennings, CNN’s Conservative Pundit

19:16Kara Swisher:Right. You use the term Democrats, but this is actually I spent a lot of time in right wing areas of talk and stuff like that. This has been a foundational issue with them. Certainly a QAnon one, a MAGA one, it's been a foundational issue among his supporters, which is, I think, the heel turn by Green is not a surprise to me. I agree. It has been a big deal to some chunk of his base. I don't know what percentage, but it's not insignificant. I concur with you. I think they believed that this was always going to reveal that powerful people, elite people, and probably people on the left, most likely Bill Clinton, that's what they think, were going to somehow be implicated in this.

19:57The Democratic counterargument has been, oh, but Trump was friends with him. Therefore, he must somehow be involved in it. And so to the extent that that is the narrative that has been perpetuated, I think he got quite frustrated with the issue in general. Now it's come and gone. They're going to release the files. I don't know how quickly. And we'll see what's in there. I know some documents have already been released. I assume it won't take that long.

20:21Kara Swisher:Sure. Now, to be fair, he's done the same thing to others. There's no evidence of Reid Hoffman. Absolutely zero. No evidence has been released that you're talking about. No convictions have been made based on the fact that the Justice Department has had it. For through his administration, through, you know, he was, he was, you know, through his administration, the Biden administration, none of it, nobody's been at all charged except Ghislaine Maxwell and then Epstein himself is dead. In some ways, I think he's running the country, this dead pedophile is running the country right now in a weird way.

20:57Kara Swisher:But when you, when you talk, why do you think it's, I want you to stick with the MAGA base. Why is it such a divisive issue with that? I don't think it's, let's get Bill Clinton. That is not what I perceive from these people. Well, I think the general perception is that elites, political elites, institutional elites, financial elites did get away with something here. And I don't think Trump actually ever personally fully made this the core argument of his reelection. But there's no doubt that some people who strongly supported him did do that. And I do think they've been highly disappointed that this didn't happen right at the beginning, that the files or the list didn't come out right at the beginning.

21:37So, you know, I think for Trump.

21:40Kara Swisher:He also did say he would release the files. Well, he got asked about it and answered a question. But if you listen to his speeches during the campaign, it was about immigration and inflation, not about the Epstein files. He was fully aware of the importance of this issue to his base. Oh, I don't I'm not I'm not disputing that. But I don't think he would tell you it's why he returned to the White House or that was the issue that put him over the top. You know, I can only just say what my perception is, is that he's been frustrated that it's been turned into a story about him when he thinks it's a story about powerful Democrats who were involved with Epstein much more than he was.

22:14And so his nature is to try to dig in when he thinks he's right about something like that. And he dug in on this, but the dam broke or they had a jailbreak, as they say, in Washington. And he decided to change his position. And now we are where we are.

22:27Kara Swisher:Do you think that's a problem for Trump? Well, I don't think it's any secret that he was friends with Epstein. And I don't think it's any secret that he eventually broke with him and excommunicated him from his, I guess, his facility in Florida and his life. Right. Well, Epstein was alleging he never joined, but go ahead. It's unclear. I know that's what he's alleged. I mean, I also know what Trump and his people have said. I guess what I would just say is this is no news here. I mean, we've known this about Donald Trump for years and years and years and years. And so I think people have taken into consideration that he knew Jeffrey Epstein before.

23:05What we don't know is who else is in there. And I guess this This goes back to the core of your question about why has it been divisive? Why has it been so motivating? Because there's a belief that there is a group of people that we don't really know what all the names are that is now going to be revealed. I don't personally know whether there's going to be a list or not. But that's the expectation is that we're going to somehow see this list of 100 people that, you know.

23:30Kara Swisher:How damaging is it from your perspective? I have always, when Elon Musk tweeted that for the first member when it came back into, it sort of had gone away. When he did that, I'm like, oh, I knew just what he was up to. I know Elon and I know how it works. And so I was like, oh, dear, this is not good for Trump. And because it's at the foundational level. How do you, where is it right now in terms of if you are, you've been a political advisor, five, you know, what level of Def Conner is it? For Trump, I mean, I don't perceive that he's all that worried about it because the best I can tell is that what they believe the files are going to show is that Epstein hated Trump, that they were genuinely estranged from one another for quite a long time.

24:15But that it's also going to show that Epstein was in touch with a lot of Democrats even after he was convicted. And so, you know, I think some people want the story to be an Epstein-Trump story. And what they believe is that it may turn out to be an Epstein-Democrat story.

24:28Kara Swisher:Right. But he was the president. He is the president. Excuse me. That's why the attention is on his relationship over other people's. It's not unusual to do that. So if you were advising him, what would you advise him right now? Oh, now? Well, I mean, the die is cast. I mean, sign the bill, get the documents out, and let the chips fall. There's really nothing else to do. We're at the end of the line here in terms of the fight. The only thing that will happen now is when the documents hit, people will read them and, you know, start to form opinions or narratives about what's in them. I guess it's hard to advise when you don't exactly know what you're dealing with.

25:01I mean, without having read it.

25:02Kara Swisher:Well, some people do. In the Justice Department, they certainly know what's there. Yeah, and I'm not one of them. So it would be hard for me to formulate advice without knowing. Last question. If a picture came out of him in a sort of an Andrew-like picture came out, how damaging would that be from a political? I'm asking you as a political person, not a Scott Jennings. What sort of a picture? Describe it for me. A picture of girls sitting on his lap, for example. Young girls. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I would assume that would be damaging. But I guess without having seen an actual photo, it would be hard for me to give you a judgment.

25:35But, you know, the president said he never went to any of these events, never participated in it. So I guess I'd have to react to it only.

25:44Kara Swisher:Wait and see. I think this has a lot of staying power myself. Marjorie Taylor Greene was a Trump diehard, speaking of which. And I know you've said the falling out is because Trump sent her a poll that wouldn't endorse her for Senate run in Georgia. She just dies that Trump told her not to run, by the way. What do you think of her transformation? And do you think they could make up after this? Oh, look, I think a lot of people have come and gone from Trump. I mean, look at Marco Rubio. I mean, they had some knockdown drag outs when they ran against each other. And now I think he's one of his most trusted, if not the most trusted member of the cabinet.

26:18Look at Elon. You know, they were together and then they were estranged. And now Elon's at the Saudi, you know, state dinner this week. And they look like they were somewhat chummy. Somewhat.

26:28Kara Swisher:He was in the wall in the back. The seating was interesting, but go ahead. Well, I mean, he was there and a lot of people took note of that. So, yeah, I would think people, you know, have come and gone in the past. I will say I do think they – the folks in the White House believe they tried to do her a favor by showing her information to save her from a humiliation of running statewide in Georgia. And they believe since they did that, she has become, frankly, a policy and a political opponent of the president, even up to and running to places like The View to attack him. And I think he finally had enough of it.

27:03Kara Swisher:Well, you're on CNN. She should go on The View. What's wrong with that? I guess there's nothing wrong with it. But if you're asking me how they're reacting to it, their reaction to that is, well, she's no ally of ours. She's become a policy opponent. She opposes on the Middle East. She opposes on immigration. She's been a thorn in our side on Epstein, and now she's running to The View to complain about the president. This doesn't sound like someone who is our friend. I think that's how they're interpreting it. Is she not allowed to have a difference of opinion on a policy issue? I suppose, but she's had a difference of opinion on some of his biggest successes.

27:37I mean, striking the Houthi rebels, taking away Iran's nuclear capability, deporting illegal aliens. I mean, these are big ticket items that they would argue are his biggest successes, and she has not been aligned with him on it. So I think they took some offense to that.

27:53Kara Swisher:Why do you think she made this transformation, honestly? Well, I think she wanted the president's help to run, and that's what they believe as well. I don't know her. That's kind of the woman's scorn thing. She's a very savvy political operator. I'm not going to – you're smarter than that. Well, look, I do think she believed that the president would be loyal to her. and help her in her political ambitions. And when that didn't happen, I do think it caused a problem between them, but I don't really know her. And so I would hesitate to ascribe any motivation. I can tell you what they think, which is that that was the moment where she somewhat turned against the president.

28:30And there is some evidence that that is the moment where the break started to begin.

28:34Kara Swisher:Do you think she's running for president? Oh, running for president. Gosh, I don't know, but I don't know how in the world she would ever be J.D. Vance, a sitting vice president. She's still a big gun. She's not a Johnny-come-lately. She was there at the beginning. But what does that tell you about the future of the MAGA movement? There's a lot of this happening, a lot of disagreement, a lot of fractures. Trump has been the only one to hold it together. And I doubt J.D. Vance has the ability to do so the way he has. I think almost no one can. He's a unique political creature. What does it say about the future of where this is going?

29:06Well, you raise a great question, And I agree with you. I don't think anyone can replicate Trump. I mean, it's very unique. His force of personality has held together people from disparate wings of the Republican Party and people from outside of the Republican Party. I mean, RFK is now in the Republican Party somehow. So it's an ideologically diverse coalition, and Trump is uniquely positioned to hold it together. But the nature of a presidency is that it's built around that person. I mean, who replaced Barack Obama? Nobody, really. I mean, the coalition he built was for him. And so the challenge for J.D.

29:42or whoever comes next is, how do I carry forward knowing I can't replicate it, but I still have to keep enough people in the tent to win? And, you know, it may be different. J.D. may have some different talents to bring people in that Trump could not. He may bleed a few, but he may add a few. That's the nature of presidential coalitions.

30:01Kara Swisher:So you think he is the natural inheritor of this? Well, I think it would be quite unusual if the sitting vice president is in good stead with the president and people seem to think he's doing a good job. It would be historically unusual for him not to inherit the nomination. And particularly if he were to team up with a Marco Rubio, who everyone, by the way, is quite happy with. I think it would be difficult to beat them from the outside. They've made an arrangement that he would be the vice president. I mean, we'll see, but that would be extremely formidable. And so trying to beat them from the outside, if it looks like they have the imprimatur of Trump, who is quite popular among the Republicans, I mean, it would be really up to that.

30:45Kara Swisher:Well, declining. That was an interesting decline from 87 to 82. It's not the good direction that you're seeking, presumably. Well, I think he is the most powerful party boss we've had in modern political history, and I think that's still the case today. Well, I would say Reagan was, and you were a Reagan person, I suspect. I was a kid, but yes, I do revere the President Reagan.

31:08Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

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32:30Kara Swisher:One, two, three. I'm standup comedian, John Marco Cerezi. And I'm actor, penis model, Russell Daniels. The downside is our podcast where we bring on guests to talk about how miserable their lives are. Because let's face it, things are not getting better. Every episode, we talk about what's wrong with our lives, our guests' lives, the world, but in a fun way. Bottom line is, you're going to walk away feeling better about your life. We've had so many cool guests. Caleb Huron, Busy Phillips, Stavros Halkias, Laverne Cox, Hassan Piker, Alana Glazer. I promise you're going to have a good time. Now on the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is The Downside.

33:14Kara Swisher:Trump welcomes Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman to the White House this weekend, called him a very good friend. This was the first time NBS has been on U.S. soil since Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi was murdered by Saudi agents in 2018. ABC's White House correspondent Mary Bruce asked Trump whether MBS visited the conflict of interest given the Trump family business with the Saudis. She also asked about Khashoggi's murder and said that 9-11 families were also furious that MBS was there. Trump, instead of answering the question, lashed out at Bruce calling ABC fake news and one of the worst business denied any conflict of interest related to family business and said about Khashoggi, things happen.

33:50Kara Swisher:He later said thought ABC's license should be taken away, kind of added that on at the end. That was after telling Bloomberg White House correspondent Catherine Lucey Quiet Piggy when she asked about the Epstein files. Are these politically good moves at this point, or how do you explain what's happening here? These are seemingly legitimately fine questions. I don't think anyone was asking anything that a normal reporter might not have asked. Yeah, that's probably true. Although Trump's perception of how he's treated by the press, of course, is that it's not good. And he believes he is mistreated by them.

34:26He's an open wound.

34:27Kara Swisher:He's quite a delicate flower. I think his view would be, look, I give these people more access than virtually any other politician or president ever. And this is the way they treat me. And so I don't think it's anything new that he has his sparring sessions with the press. Now, in the case of the Saudis, look, he is doing something big ticket here. He's trying to get them to join the Abraham Accords. He's trying to strengthen the relationship between the Saudis, the rest of their partners in the region, and the Israelis. And he has, you know, and this was his idea and somebody coming in and trying to throw sand in the gears, I think, would be offensive to him.

35:05And I think that's what you were seeing there. But the macro goal is to get the Saudis into the Abraham Accords and to further, because if they join, everyone else is going to join and it will be a huge success. And I think that's his ultimate operation here.

35:20Kara Swisher:Although his answers were indulgent then, if that's the case, right? It took all the focus off of it in terms of having to threaten ABC. Well, he was I think he would say I'm defending my guest here and our ally from what I consider to be a hostile questions that are designed to derail something important, which is the continuation of Middle East peace and fostering economic and security for everybody in the region. We didn't say that. Why didn't you just say that? Well, I mean, he says things the way he says them. I'm just interpreting, you know, as a commentator, how I how I perceived his reaction to it in the moment.

35:51Kara Swisher:Again, if you were an advisor, you think these are good things or just let Trump be Trump sort of playing on the West Wing idea? Is that a good thing necessarily for this particular goal? Is it a good thing? I mean, I think it's a Trump thing. I mean, when has he had warm relations or warm reactions to the press gaggle that has followed him around for the last 10 years? I can't think of a moment that he did. So I guess I didn't think anything of it because it's situation normal. He believes they're hostile to him. I think they are largely hostile to him, and he reacts to them in a way that you would if someone was constantly hostile to you.

36:28Kara Swisher:I guess. I've never seen someone who loves the press more, obviously, but I think it's a very different kind of love. I will say this. For someone who dislikes the press as much as he does, the amount of access he gives them is miraculous. I mean, it's a good thing. The press having access to the president is good. Absolutely. They did not have access to the last president. They have access to this one. And I generally think that's a good development. Yeah, except then he shouldn't expect anything in return. I just I don't understand why you think they're not friends. Like, you know, you said you at the beginning said, you know, you feel like a PR person.

37:02Kara Swisher:They don't feel like a PR person and they should be tough on any president. Very quick. I was going to ask about the czar and mom, Donnie. He is asked to talk to Trump about affordability. Around two thirds of registered voters say Trump hasn't lived up to his promises to improve the economy and to bring down the cost of living. Trump has dismissed the polls saying prices are coming down when clearly they aren't. How do you think this idea of an Mamdani-Trump meeting is? You said he likes to hear opinions from random people he talks to. And obviously, Mamdani has hit on something really strong around this.

37:34Well, I think the president should have a relationship with the mayor of New York City. I mean, it's one of the most important cities in the world. Now, the way Trump sees the world, the way Mamdani sees the world, obviously, couldn't be farther apart. And Trump being a New Yorker, I think he feels like he knows more about New York City than Mom Donnie will ever know. And so it's not like he's coming into the conversation cold.

37:57Kara Swisher:It's not a contest. So I think that'll color their relationship, obviously, because of Trump being from New York and having strong positions on New York. But it's New York City. It's an important place. It's a financial capital of the world. And so should they have some kind of relationship? Yes. Do I think Mom Donnie intends it to be adversarial? I do. And, you know, we'll have to see how he's going to play that. How do you look at his campaign and his focus on affordability, which I think really was the winning message in that case? Oh, really? I think the winning message was that he got to run against Andrew Cuomo twice.

38:30I mean, he got to run against the worst candidate twice, not once, but twice. And that was really helpful to him. I mean, look, he has never had a real job. He has never managed anything approaching.

38:42Kara Swisher:No, you don't have to do this. He ran a fantastic campaign. You as a campaign person have to look at that. He lost a third of his own party to a guy who was disgraced when he left office just a couple of years ago. I don't know whether that's true or not. Famous governor. That's not a surprise. That's not, to me, a surprise. Look, I'm as hopeful as any Republican is, which is to say not very much. I don't have a lot of utility for people who are quoting Eugene Debs in their acceptance speeches. Okay. He also quoted Mario Cuomo. When you look at him as a force, how are you looking at that? Oh, look, I think in politics, you always have to be careful what you wish for.

39:21I remember Democrats licking their chops at the thought of running against Donald Trump in 2016. This is a good thing. Be careful what you wish for. And I think the ascendant energy in the Democratic Party is with people like him. The socialist energy in the party is clear. It's reflected in the polls. He's a great actor. He's well produced. So I, you know, I take it very seriously what he was able to do. I do think he had a terrible opposition and he had a fragmented field, which also helped him. And I think he may run headlong into the governing realities of the way being mayor of New York City works.

39:57But I think it did tell us something about where the Democrats are, which is.

40:01Kara Swisher:You kind of just described Donald Trump, but go ahead at the beginning of his beginning of his ascent upwards. Well, look, I think one thing is true to succeed in politics these days. You do need a level of showmanship. You do need a level of production. You do need a level of being able to communicate in a modern way. And I concur with you. Mondani knew how to do that. Now, whether there's any substance underpinning all that production, we'll have to find out. I'm dubious, but we'll see. Well, they thought the same of Trump. I mean, I remember how they looked at him for sure. Let's talk about the book, Revolution of Common Sense, which is about Trump's first months in office, the conflict between Trump and the mainstream media, which we talked about already.

40:39Kara Swisher:is a recurring theme, though, in your book. Trump is in one of the through lines of your book. For example, you reiterate the Hunter Biden laptop story, quote, the media colluded with more than 50 so-called intelligence experts in 2020 who claim that Hunter Biden's laptop was classic Russian disinformation campaign. You and I had a fight about that last year on CNN. Let's play that. There is no proof that tech companies colluded to do this. This is nonsense, and he knows it. Oh, no, I'm sorry. There was a major institutional effort to suppress that story. No, there was absolutely, listen, I have been one of the biggest critics of tech.

41:14Kara Swisher:This is nonsense. I think the issue is this word collude. I think one, I mean, you might say Trump colludes with tech people now, like they're at his dinners, et cetera, et cetera. And he's applying a lot of pressure and influence to them at the same time. Explain what I think is an obsession with collusion. Well, I think in that particular case, what Republicans were exercised about was that this Hunter Biden story was emerging. There was something there. And there was an immediate attempt by media outlets to say, this is not a huge deal. I remember NPR saying, we're not going to cover this because it's not important to the American people, which I totally disagree with.

41:56And then you had tech companies and platforms literally not putting the story on their platform. And they were actively censoring it on the doorstep of an election. So the general criticism is – and then on top of that, the Democrats go out and recruit 50 people with fancy titles, intelligence backgrounds to all say, oh, this is classic Russian disinformation. So you had a number of things going on. And what did we find out later? It was real. The information on it was real and it was valid stuff about whether the Biden family was involved in things that you and I might agree would be considered corrupt.

42:35And so why was there such an effort to keep this information from broad distribution to the American people on the doorstep of an election? Republicans were mad about it then and they're still mad about it today. What were they so afraid of? I mean, the story was true. There wasn't really any dispute of that other than from these 50 people who come from government, who are in and out of government when Democrats are in power.

42:58Kara Swisher:That's politics to me, Scott. I mean, you're not naive. Come on. They were making their case, just like you would say Trump just did with whatever issue he has. Well, I don't agree that it's just a simple matter of making your case when you use your government title and you use your intelligence bona fides and you use all your credentials to flat out lie to the American people. They didn't know that. That was a political argument, but they were saying this is Russian disinformation. What you're reading is directly out of the Kremlin. It was one of the biggest lies that was told to try to get Joe Biden over the finish line.

43:36And do you think that's just politics as usual?

43:39Kara Swisher:Yes, I do, actually. I think it's, I do. Do you like it? I don't like it. I don't like Trump meddling with Intel. I don't like Trump meddling with the tech companies. I don't like the paper play that looks like it's available right now for these companies. I know why they're doing it. I know why they're paying this money. I know why they're giving them money. This is not a new and fresh thing. And I think the tech companies will go wherever their bread is buttered. That's really pretty much how I look at them. Can I make one more comment about it? Because I think it's an important debate. You had that issue going on, and then there was, you know, there's also been questions about what was kept from the American people or what information was, you know, downplayed from the American people during COVID.

44:21I mean, there were people that had opinions or ideas about COVID and what was going on during that time. And people lost access to social media. People had their opinions villainized. It turns out some of those people were right, and the people who were censoring them were wrong. And so I guess my point is this. There is a general feeling that if the elites make a decision about what the narrative is going to be, they can crush you and they can either coerce tech companies into crushing you. They can coerce media into crushing you. But the crushing of opinions and dissent in this case, I think, left a bad taste in people's mouth.

44:57Kara Swisher:I guess I could just say Brandon Carr right now making threats against Disney. I guess I could say lawyers. What information about Donald Trump is being censored from the American people? I think these are private companies. They can do whatever they want, Scott. And I don't think it was coerced or colluded. I think these, just as now, as law firms are backing down and making payments or universities are worried about their funding and they'll make payments, it's awfully similar in terms of what people can and can't say. I think these lawsuits against media companies, it's the same thing. It's the same exact playbook if you want to compare them.

45:37And in fact, it's a playbook that's been, what's the word when you take steroids?

45:44Kara Swisher:It's on steroids is what's happening now. But let me ask, I think Donald Trump is an elite and is crushing dissent same way, and actually in a more brutal way in many ways. But let me talk about this idea of common sense approach through the book. Like, for example, common sense to rip down the East Wing feels not so common sense or to throw a great gaspy party. I think these are largely distractions, honestly. And the snap benefits fight, that doesn't seem like common sense to me. So I want to understand what you mean by common sense and putting America first. Yeah, great question. So the book title is A Revolution of Common Sense, which is a phrase that I stole from Trump.

46:23Kara Swisher:I thought it was a Thomas Paine reference. Well, common sense was his pamphlet. Trump in his inaugural address said we are having a revolution of common sense. And when I heard it, I thought, oh, that would be a great book title. And so that's where I got the germ of the idea. But I think there's been a lot of issues in American politics over the last few years where it felt like we were dealing with uncommon nonsense. And Trump comes along and has a pretty good instinct for picking the 80 of a lot of 80-20 issues. Boys and girls sports is a good example. I even mentioned I was in the Oval Office today.

46:54I think he signed the executive order of banning paper straws. You know, some things are big, some things are large, but they're all just what an average person would say. Oh, yeah, that's common sense. I think that's how he has rebranded his political movement. I asked him once, do you consider yourself to be more of a conservative or like a common sense person? And he said, well, most of the time conservative is common sense. But when I went with him to Michigan on his hundredth day in office, he told the crowd. And I think this sums it up. Whether you're right or whether you're left or whatever the hell you are, it's just common sense.

47:28So when I called the book this because it struck me the way he said it in the inaugural, but I think it is authentically how he brands himself and how he would brand his movement.

47:39Kara Swisher:You're trying. What isn't common sense right now? What isn't common sense? Ripping down the East Wing doesn't seem like common sense to me. I don't know. If I was on that side, I'd be like, oh, what a stupid move. a great Gatsby party when government workers are furloughed. That doesn't seem like common sense. And if I want to go to Elon, throwing around a chainsaw when people are losing their jobs seems just mean, pretty much just mean. But talk, what isn't common sense? I just gave you three. Sure. Well, I'll give you the Republican view of that. I don't think it was common sense to shut down the government.

48:09I don't think it was common sense to, I think, effectively hold federal workers and all these people and their SNAP benefits hostage just to keep your base ginned up for an election. And that's why they caved when the election ended, because they didn't know how to get out of it. They knew it was a political tactic in the beginning. But I don't think any of that was common sense for the Democrats. I guess they got their political outcome, but I don't really put any of that on Trump. They were the ones who voted against the Biden budget levels that they themselves had just supported. What was common sense about that?

48:39Absolutely nothing.

48:40Kara Swisher:What about his administration going to court to fight against giving American And SNAP benefits. Was that common sense? I mean, the Congress specifically did not appropriate money for this. And then you want them to spend money that wasn't appropriated. They just had no king's rallies. And then they want him to act like a king and spend money that wasn't appropriated. But they wanted king for a day. What is not common sense that's going on here? Because Trump doesn't have a problem using funds that weren't appropriated for his own purposes. That has happened several times. Without you giving me an example to react to, I don't know what I would conjure up.

49:13I'll give you one from early in the administration. I personally thought the Doge effort to cut wasteful spending, the principles and the impulses were correct. But I don't think the PR and the public communication was right. And I think when you're going to make major changes like that and you are going to go in and take a wrecking ball to certain things, you have to have a PR strategy that matches the magnitude of it. And so to me, it made sense to do it, but it didn't make sense to do the PR the way they did it. So there's an example from if I had a criticism of something that was handled or mishandled this year, that was one of them.

49:51I like the concept of it, but I think the PR of it could have been handled much better. And I think the American people would have approved of it if more communication efforts had been made, not just directly, but also with the Congress.

50:02Kara Swisher:So the PR of it, it's always, I'm always like wary when someone says the PR was right. That's often when Uber was. Well, you have to communicate with your constituents about what you're doing. And so to me, it makes sense to do that. The way it was done. The execution might be the thing you might want to focus in on here. Speaking of Doge, you write about it in the book. So the reality is that Congress doesn't even know how much of the budget has been spent because of Elon Musk and the Doge slash and burn. In your book, you called what Elon did with Doge extraordinary. I think that's not what most people think, including Trump people I talk to.

50:34Kara Swisher:Something else stood out. You wrote about the U.S. Digital Service. You wrote, crucially, the office was able to reach every layer of the federal government. It was exactly what Elon Musk had in mind when he mused about having access to the government's servers. I'm curious, as a conservative, because I certainly, I'm not a conservative, but I'm certainly concerned that Elon has access to a trove of government data, of America's information, especially with AI models that consolidate that information. That sounds like Big Brothers, not limited government that conservatives want. Well, I think that if you were going to start to examine how we're spending money and where it goes within our vast bureaucracy, you have to have access to the systems that would tell you where it's going.

51:16I don't have any reason to believe Elon had any nefarious purposes whatsoever other than to tell you what he told me when I interviewed him. I said, why are you here? And he said, I'm trying to find a way to make America not go bankrupt. And he was sincere in that. He had strong feelings about a lot of other issues, but that was the first thing that he told me when we sat down. And so I interpreted all of his moves as this. I've been given a mandate by the president to find wasteful spending and to cut it. And I want to move fast, and I may need to break some things along the way, but how do I actually get access to the information that I need to find the things to cut?

51:55I mean, they did it. And in some cases, it was successful, and in some cases, they ran into roadblocks. But I think they were feeling pressure to move quickly. And, you know, Elon told me he believes our fiscal situation is dire. He thinks the amount of debt in the country is devaluing the currency.

52:12Kara Swisher:That's where he broke with Trump. Yeah. He believes that like that combined with the mass migration crisis and the low birth rate is sort of all these things are aligning to really threaten the future of the country. And he was very sincere about that when I spoke with him about it. I don't believe everything comes out of his mouth that you might, given I've known him for 30 years and was a fan and no longer. When you look at Doge, because you talk about it a lot in the book, you consider it successful? Well, yes. I think the impulse to cut wasteful spending. Which is not a new impulse, Scott.

52:43Kara Swisher:Cutting spending. The Bush administration had one. The Clinton administration. Every administration has one of these things. And then, look, I wrote about this as well. Well, when you look at what the president laid out in his speech to Congress in March, going through that line item of all the sort of ridiculous things, I think those are the nagging things that drive people crazy. And no one ever seems to do anything about it. So, yes, I liked it very much. As I said, though, I think the future of this is you have to have more cooperation with the Congress because ultimately they are going to have to be the ones to decide to spend less and enforce less spending and enforce less ridiculous spending on the executive branch.

53:22So that to me is what's missing right now is the evolution where we're working with Congress to make it stick and make it, frankly, more expansive over time.

53:30Kara Swisher:So are you actually pushing for a stronger Congress in the face of executive authority? Oh, look, I think it would be great if Congress would take up their responsibilities to exercise a little more fiscal responsibility in this country. I think most Republicans believe them. And how do you think they're doing right now? I think some things are good. I like that they executed the biggest welfare reform in a generation in the big, beautiful bill. I think that is good. But I think the enduring question and the most important question is, we're spending 54 % more money today than we were just before COVID.

54:04Do you feel like your government is 54 % better today than it was just before COVID? I don't. And we have trillions upon trillions upon trillions in debt. I think Elon's alarm that he raised to me is quite real, and I think that sentiment is held by a lot of people. And so eventually we're going to have to reckon with this and we haven't done it in a serious way yet.

54:25Kara Swisher:Which is why he broke with Trump. But when you when you get to the idea of Congress having more power, do you think this Congress, which is in lockstep with Trump, is a good idea? And people pushing back like Marjorie Greene should be welcome, presumably. Right. Correct. Well, look, I think that the Congress is largely in step with Trump on his policy priorities. And it's because when he ran for president, they were all running at the same time and they all basically ran on the same platform. They didn't run their campaigns to say, well, I know you love Trump, but I'm going to go up there and oppose him, even though I'm also a Republican.

55:01I mean, that's kind of ridiculous. And so I think they've done what their voters expected them to do, help the president execute. I think the long-term fiscal health of the country, though, is troubling, and it needs to be dealt with. And, you know, look, 70-something percent of our budget is non-discretionary. And so, you know, we are going to have to reckon with some long-term structural issues if we're going to get the fiscal health of the country in order. And that has not been dealt with yet, but it will have to be someday.

55:35Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

55:45Kara Swisher:I'm Seth Matlins. My new show, Create or Destroy, Reimagining Marketing, explores how every decision a company makes, not just the marketing ones, but the HR, IR, pricing, org design, and planning ones, the ones most don't consider marketing at all, contribute to either creating value or destroying it. Each week, I sit down with CMOs, CEOs, founders, cultural thinkers, the people building, breaking, and reimagining how businesses grow or don't for conversations about what creates value and what destroys it. It's a business show. It's a marketing show. Creator destroys the show that argues. They've always been the same thing from the Vox Media Podcast Network and the Wisdomist Company.

56:23New episodes drop weekly on YouTube

56:25Kara Swisher:and your favorite podcast app. All right. So every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours. Hey Scott, it's your old buddy Tim Miller with the Bulwark Podcast. When I was asked to submit this question, I just thought about what a long, strange trip it's been since we worked together for Jeb Bush back in 2015. And that made me just think of this whole thought exercise. I wonder what you think would have happened if I went in a time machine from today back to our old office there in Miami in 2015. And I said to you, you know, guess what? You won't believe this. Donald Trump's been elected twice.

57:00After he was elected the first time, he lost his reelection, threw a temper tantrum, and then sicked a mob of violent superfans on the Capitol, where they attacked police officers, menaced Mitt Romney, our man, and other politicians.

57:12Kara Swisher:And yet somehow he came back, got elected to the presidency again, and then instituted an insane, Smoot-Hawley-style, non-conservative tariff regime, trampled all over the rule of law. one example, sending Venezuelans to a foreign prison camp to be tortured with no due process, just based on their tattoos. And that after all of that happened, you, Scott, my Jeb colleague, would be for him, not only for him, enthusiastically for him, simping for him on a podcast. And I think if I told 2015 Scott that, you would say, that's crazy, Tim. A, there's no way that could have happened. But B, there's no way I'd be for it.

57:49Kara Swisher:But here you are, you're for it. And so I wonder, does that make you think that 2015, Scott, was wrong about something? Or does that make you think maybe some of the people that you thought had TDS when they talked about all the crazy stuff Trump would do had a point? Let me know what you think. All right. 2015, Scott. Don't worry, I seek difficult questions on everybody. I thought you were going to get a question from an expert, but you got Tim Miller instead. When you get the expert question, let me know. It's entertainment, Scott. Entertainment. Yeah. Yeah. He's neither expert nor entertaining, I can assure you.

58:18Look, here's what I think. 2015, Scott, would have been totally shocked to have learned early on anyway that Donald Trump was going to get elected twice. I will tell you a quick story that I tell in my book. And, you know, the first person to ever tell me Trump was going to be the next president was my dad, a garbage man and a factory worker from Kentucky who was the biggest Clinton Democrat that I knew. And, of course, I told him he was full of shit and, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. And he was right and I was wrong. And so I think a lot of people who had been trained in normal politics didn't take it seriously at first.

58:54I learned very quickly during that primary, not only should it be taken seriously, but that it was quite likely to happen. I did campaign in 2016 for Jeb early on, and I was out on the road and I was running into people thinking he's got something going on here. And that's when I realized there was a big change coming to the Republican Party. So I think in many ways, Donald Trump has executed like any Republican would. Taxes are low. The Supreme Court is conservative. These are basic Republican things. The number one departure on policy orthodoxy has been tariffs. No question about it. It's not been a tariff party.

59:33Bush did a little tariffs briefly. Reagan did a little briefly. But we've not been a tariff party. But interestingly, it is the – I think, and I don't know what you think, but it's the longest held view of Trump. It's his most closely held view. I think it's his view.

59:47Kara Swisher:I think it's idiotic. Go ahead. But it's his most consistent view, and he has never, ever shied away from it. And yet he did win two elections on it, and he did implement it. I personally think the Supreme Court may take away some of his power here based on what I heard in the arguments. I guess what I would say is that every president puts their own policy and premature on their own party. Bush did a few things that weren't particularly conservative either. But what I have come to believe is that we're not just arguing about the daily politics anymore. I do believe the future of the West is at stake.

1:00:20And whether Trump knew he was signing up for it or not, I believe he believes in the future of the West. And I think he's fighting forces that don't. And so I guess I sobered up a little bit about what's really at stake in this world. And it's not just daily policy fights, but it's about ideologies. And it's about whether we're going to have an American future or something much darker.

1:00:39Kara Swisher:That's the dark idea of it. But you write as if tariffs were a flex. I don't think most people think tariffs are a flex. Most conservatives in the old school. And 2015, Scott, certainly wouldn't have thought it was a flex. Correct? No, no. Republicans for my whole career did not believe in tariffs. We were not a tariff party. Some of our presidents had dalliances with it, but they didn't believe in it the way Trump did. And so there's no question and no quibble for me that this is, in my opinion, the biggest policy departure from the traditional conservative or Republican movement. But you support it.

1:01:14Do I support it? Look, I think he won the election on it. And he's our president and he's allowed to operate.

1:01:21Kara Swisher:But do you agree with it, Scott Jennings? You know, I think some of it is working already. I think some of it is TBD. And I think I would probably rethink some of it. But I guess I have a bit of a nuanced answer on it. But yeah, do I support his general theory that manufacturing needs to be stimulated, that workers have been left behind, and that we have let some other countries take advantage of it? Yeah, I agree with all that. Okay. The things you don't write in the book are also revealing to me. You didn't talk about Trump pardoning or commutations of January 6th protesters. And you wrote in 2021, which is only four years ago, that Trump betrayed his oath of office.

1:01:57Kara Swisher:That was the nicest thing you wrote then. You didn't write about SignalGate either. What did you, what did you, I think one of the biggest, you know, it was a problematic issue, I think. Talk a little bit about why you didn't cover those things. And, you know, definitely it's a little hypocritical the party chanted lock her up over Hillary Clinton's email servers, for example, and are not doing it here. What did you decide to leave out? Why did you decide to leave those things out? I think I might have mentioned Signal because I did interview Hegseth about it, and I thought I mentioned it. I certainly talked about it a lot on TV and certainly gave them some advice about it on TV that maybe was a little tough love on it.

1:02:42So to me, I viewed that as a bit of a tempest in a teapot at the time. And look, the president even I think himself said at the time, this has been a learning experience for everyone involved here. So I don't think he was super happy with it, to be honest. On the pardons, you know, my view is this. People who commit violent actions should not get pardoned. I don't agree with it. I do think people who were there, some of them may have been overcharged. That's certainly the president's view. I haven't reviewed every single case. you know I'm not somebody who necessarily believes in large class action pardons I didn't like it when Biden did it to the drug offenders at the end of his administration and I don't think it's correct that these people didn't pay a price most of them were convicted most of them suffered severe consequences and like so they were punished uh but you know my view of January the 6th is that it was a terrible day I wish it not had happened I hope it never happens again and um it was um And it was hard to watch.

1:03:43And I think it was a dark moment.

1:03:45Kara Swisher:And you stand by what you said about him then. Do you stand by that, what you said about him, which was pretty tough, Scott? Yeah, look, I think there was a lot about the run-up to January 6th, what happened that day, and what happened in the aftermath that, you know, there's not a lot to be proud of there. And I think it was a dark moment. I hope we never, ever, ever see anything like that happen again. And the transfer of power in this country is a sacred thing, and we need to respect it. And by the way, at the time, I was thinking, gosh, is this going to be the norm now, no matter who wins the next election?

1:04:20Then we get to 2024, and Trump wins. And, you know, we kind of went back to normal in some ways. We had a normal transfer.

1:04:29Kara Swisher:Well, Democrats don't take over the Capitol illegally, but okay. Okay. But just so you know, just for people to know, you called group texts over war plans that included a journalist and family members without security clearance a kerfuffle. And people died in what happened on January 6th. I think you do agree with me that that was a stain on his legacy. So I want to see if there are limits for your love of Trump. Let's do a lightning round. Yes or no answers. Would you support President Trump if he launches a war to take over Greenland or Canada or Venezuela by force? I don't have any problem with military action against Venezuela.

1:05:05I don't think we'll be having any wars with Canada and Greenland. And I write about this in my book, the impulse to possess Greenland is a good one.

1:05:12Kara Swisher:Would you support President Trump if he uses the FCC or another federal agency to shut down or bankrupt a media outlet? Shut down a media outlet. I think the SEC should just enforce the law as directed by Congress. That's what I think they should be doing. Meaning? Well, I mean, they are the regulatory agency over the Communications Act under which we still operate for some reason in this country. So I think their mandate is to just – Well, it's the news distortion rule that Brendan Carr used. Well, look, my personal view is that he is only able to do what the law or the Congress has created the FCC to do.

1:05:53If the Congress wants to change that, that's up to them.

1:05:55Kara Swisher:I guess. I find him to be an unctuous toady and also shouldn't have tweeted what he tweeted. Would you support President Trump if he finds a loophole in the 22nd Amendment and runs for a third term? No. Would you support President Trump if he uses the National Guard to block polling sites in 2028? Block polling sites? He could do it. I don't know anything about that. You don't think he will? I think everybody has a right to, every legal voter ought to have a right to vote. All right, last one. Will you support President Trump if the GOP loses in 2020 and he refuses to leave the White House and we have another incident?

1:06:28I mean, look, I think the president's going to have a successful term. And when it's over, we'll put a new president in there and we ought to have a peaceful transfer of power just the way we had in 2024.

1:06:37Kara Swisher:Before I go, just very quickly, you're a political commentator on CNN. And that could be part of Warner Brothers' discovery sale. You've been reportedly approached to join CBS outright. They've been reaching out to many conservative pundits like yourself. On CNN panels, clearly you're the odd man out. But it does give you a unique selling point for sure. Have you been contacted? Contacted by who? By CBS outright. Oh, I'm not going to comment on that. I have a lot of conversation with a lot of people. That would be a yes. I think, would you rather be surrounded by other maggot Republicans like on Fox or maybe CBS in the future?

1:07:13Kara Swisher:How do you see your future here? Oh, I think I was put on this earth to debate and to do so in a hostile environment. I think I have found the absolute correct job for me in this business. And I think CNN creating this environment for these debates has been one of the best things that's ever happened to me. And I think it's one of the best things that's ever happened to the network. And so I quite like what I'm doing right now. And do you have political aspirations? Obviously, there's been talk that you might run for office in Kentucky where you were, I mean, I believe Mitch McConnell is like a father to you in some ways, correct?

1:07:46Grandfather. Or has been? Grandfather, okay. He's been my mentor. I've known him since I was 16 years old. And if it weren't for Mitch McConnell, I don't know if I would have been able to go to college, to be honest with you. So in the short term, no. Medium or far term, maybe. We'll see.

1:08:02Kara Swisher:Does it affect you that your mentor broke with Trump? How has that affected your relationship? Not at all, really. It's interesting, actually, in Kentucky. Everybody assumed McConnell was going to be a thorn in Trump's side. But it's really turned out to be Rand Paul and Thomas Massey that have been the thorns in Trump's side. And McConnell has, I think, actually been, he's been quite helpful to Trump. I mean, he helped, I know, internally in the Senate, lobby internally to get the big, beautiful bill passed. But he's been publicly, he's been publicly critical, too. though. Of course. Is that been difficult for you?

1:08:34Kara Swisher:No. I mean, look, I don't think I'm not one that believes everybody has to get along or be golfing buddies. You know, politics means that sometimes you have people on your team that you don't personally get along with, but you're still fighting largely for the same things. And I will tell you this, McConnell and Trump are forever linked in history by what they did to change the Supreme Court. I mean, but for both of them, it is their big, one of their biggest, for McConnell certainly, and for Trump, it's one of their biggest legacy points, the changing of the court. And it was McConnell and Trump that teamed up to do it.

1:09:07And whenever conservatives come up to me and complain to me about McConnell, I say, oh, do you like a 6-3 Supreme Court? And they always say yes. And I say, welcome to Team Mitch, because that's what the results of that was.

1:09:19Kara Swisher:Okay, last question. If Trump does indeed stick to the 22nd Amendment, as we all hope he will, another Republican candidate in 2028, I think you're saying it's going to be J.D. Vance. Likely, yeah. Will you push back if they take on policies that are different from Trump's, which you've embraced, I think, pretty wholeheartedly. Do you think you will go along with that, whatever that happens to be? Well, I think every nominee of the party has every right to put their own imprimatur on our platform. I think if it's J.D. Vance, as the sitting vice president, he'll largely be running on the general policy direction that Trump has set.

1:09:55I mean, after all, he has been helping Trump implement that policy direction. I think it'd be quite weird if he took the party in a totally radically different direction. I'd be quite shocked if that happened.

1:10:04Kara Swisher:I mean, I think I'm asking you, would you be a winsock? I think I'm basically asking you that. But if there's another candidate, how do you react to that given you're kind of all in on Trump in this? You mean a different nominee? Yeah. Oh, wow. Gosh, that would be an interesting outcome. Look, I think some people might run. I think it's unlikely they would win. But look, I'm a Republican. I've been a Republican my entire life. And if somebody becomes the nominee of the Republican Party and they do what I want them to do 90 or 95 percent of the time and the Democrat nominee who's going to be a socialist does what I want them to do 0 percent of the time, it's a pretty easy choice for me.

1:10:41Kara Swisher:All right. We'll end on that. Scott, you were smirk free, so that's good. Come on. You use a smirk. There's a smirk happening. I can see it coming. You've got like a Grinch-like smirk. I don't, I don't, I hear people say this and I don't know what they're talking about, but I'll take your word first. Oh, come on. Come on. You know you're doing it. I don't believe you. So I'm going to give you a little inside TV baseball. You want to hear it? Oh, thank you. Okay, good. Go ahead. When I, and you know this because you've been on the set, when I look at that camera, it's because it is literally right over Abby's shoulder from my position.

1:11:16Sure. And so when I'm looking back at her preparing to do the next thing, it looks like I'm looking at the camera. But most of the time, I am just looking back at Abby because it's almost my turn again. And so some of that is more me looking at my host and my boss, Abby, and not looking at the camera. But it's a good spot for the camera, I will admit.

1:11:36Kara Swisher:That's like Jessica Rabbit. I'm not smarking. I'm just drawn that way. I'm just teasing. Anyway, I appreciate it. Very interesting conversation. And again, your book is called A Revolution of Common Sense. Thank you, Scott. Thank you, Cara. Today's show was produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yocum, Michelle Alloy, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Andrea Lopez-Cruzado and Bradley Sylvester. Aliyah Jackson engineered this episode. And our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're welcome.

1:12:13Kara Swisher:This is your Thanksgiving dinner to come. If not, wipe that Grinch smirk off your face. Go wherever you listen to podcasts. Search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, and the Vox Media Podcast Network. And, of course, us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

1:12:36Kara Swisher:When I scraped my car in that parking garage, I was worried that it could be a long process to take care of it. Like a landscaper's first day trimming a hedgeman. I have definitely already been here. Now, was it left, right, or right, left? Well, maybe I'll cut a path out and find my way back later. But it wasn't like that. I filed a claim in under two minutes on the GEICO app, and they handled it from there. It was taken care of almost as quickly as it happened. It feels good to get help quick. It feels good to GEICO.