ICE, Iran and $1,000 ‘Cheap Seats’: The World Cup Returns to the U.S.

23:01Kara Swisher:But the fact is, you know, it speaks to among—we haven't even gotten to the issues of how the United States is currently seeing around the world right now. It's going to be hosting the World Cup. But, I mean, this is at the center of it, right? The idea of, sure, the administration says that ICE will just be helping out and they won't be actually doing enforcement. I would not blame anyone for perhaps having a touch of skepticism. I think about that along with a lot of other things. But also, even if they don't, the fact that that is something that is at the centerpiece of any world traveler that would want to come to the games that were supposed to— Like, this was the World Cup that was supposed to be the one that went smoothly, right?

23:38Kara Swisher:There was so much worry about Qatar. There was so much worry about Russia. This was supposed to be the U.S., not just like taking its place. Yeah, we weren't supposed to be the problematic country. Yes. And also this was, we talked about 1994 earlier, this was supposed to be the culmination of the American soccer moment. Like this was something that they've been building for such a long time. You remember the MLS started after the 94 World Cup. And so a lot of that was all based in this notion that, you know, this was supposed to be one of the best generations of the U.S. men's team. This was supposed to all be building up for this culmination moment.

24:09Kara Swisher:and the U.S. is, I think, perceived as perhaps not at its best right now. No, we're not the best world citizens. So, Rachel, speaking of that, a recent survey found that 80 % of hotels in host cities are not seeing the bookings they forecast that international tourism to the U.S. was also way down last year. Four million fewer people visited than the year prior, the first drop since COVID. Trump and his policies are the big reason why. Cities and local businesses have been promised a windfall from global tourism during the World Cup, And if it doesn't materialize, what are the knock-on effects?

24:40Kara Swisher:Well, one of the immediate knock-on effects is a lot of the host cities are not going to turn a profit or at least pay for their expenses, which are pretty considerable. One of the reasons why you're seeing, for instance, in Boston and in New York, these really high train costs that have made up on these, you know,$150,$100 for train rides that usually cost, you know,$12 or$13, is because the host cities are trying to recoup whatever money they can. So that's sort of the immediate knock-on effect. And longer term, of course, you know, there's the tourism effect, right? I mean, America is usually a very attractive place to visit.

25:14Kara Swisher:It's pretty unwieldy to visit, but this certainly had the promise of something that had a pretty rosy glow to it. But given the backdrop, I think it's fair to say that that glow hasn't quite materialized. Sometimes when the games start, it changes. But, you know, I spoke with one fan in Amsterdam who had been to a couple previous World Cups, And he said, you know, I'm going to watch in the street, put a TV out and have my neighbors come and watch because I just don't want to go to the U.S. right now. So, do you sense is the cost or is it Trump? I think it's a variety of factors. I mean, I think the number one reason is the cost.

25:47Kara Swisher:Because if people are hardcore enough soccer fans and they really want to come here, I think most people will try to make it. Right. But certainly, you know, Trump is not terribly popular in Europe. And the Dutch fan I talked to said that was his line in the sand. He didn't want to go to an event on American soil, given the political backdrop right now. So the U.S. is also in the middle of a war with Iran, as you noted. The Iran men's team is set to play as three group stage games in the U.S. As of our taping late Wednesday, no one with the team has been issued U.S. visas. They reported they may get them Friday.

26:19Kara Swisher:Their training base was also moved to Mexico. Tara, as you said, this marks the first time in World Cup history the host country has been at war with a qualified nation. How complicated do you think this is going to get? I think it's extremely complicated. I was with the Iranian team last week in Turkey where they've been at training camp. And my overwhelming sense was I was feeling very sorry for these players. The World Cup happens every four years. It is such the high point of their lives. And this fog of uncertainty will remain over their presence until the ball is kicked in that first game against New Zealand for them.

27:02in Los Angeles. So you mentioned that now in going to go to Mexico, they're going to Tijuana, they were supposed to be in Tucson, in Arizona, where they were going to train. Logistically, it's closer to LA. And but that is across a border. They almost have a black mark against them. There's 48 teams at the World Cup. But this one is going to have to go through all of these hurdles. Meanwhile, we're having so many comments, both from American officials and Iranian officials that are contradictory. Like the same guy who says we won't be coming, then we'll say, well, of course, FIFA will have to create the conditions because we qualified on merit.

27:50We should be playing. This is FIFA's competition, not the US's competition. Now, the next stage, as you said, there is these visa issues. They need to be issued. What I understand is it's not player by player. They've applied as a group. They'll get these visas as a squad of players, both for Mexico, multiple entry for Mexico and the US because of the nature of the tournament and their tournament. And yeah, it just feels very much a dampener, right? For them, their people. Right.

28:25Kara Swisher:We saw some players on staff of the Iranian women's soccer team applied to defect to Australia during this year's Women's Asia Cup. Most of them withdrew those applications. Two players chose to remain. Could that happen here? Of course it could. Of course it could happen because what we're talking about with the women in Australia was they were overseas at an international soccer tournament and it happened straight after the war. And there was, in their case, it was about how they behaved during the national anthem. I think they didn't sing the national anthem. There was uproar on social media in Iran.

29:05And I think there were people in Australia, human rights groups, etc., who were talking to them. And that led to a group of them deciding to stay back and apply for asylum. And that number then was reduced to, I think, maybe only two or three by the end of it. some decided to go back. Now, can you imagine the pressure on these people? If, yes, you're going to claim asylum, you're overseas, but guess what? Most of your family is still in Iran.

29:34Kara Swisher:Right, exactly. There's huge pressures on these people. And to try and almost make them political figures, I can understand exactly why they would be seen that way, because they're wearing the shirt, they're seeing they are the symbol of this country at war with the United States in the biggest event in the world. Right. This is hard. Although I suspect a lot of Americans are not as angry as Iran is, Trump is. So, Will, you had a piece in New York Magazine on how conversations around politics and sports are about to get a lot louder. This will be a Trump World Cup. He will put himself at the center of it.

30:09Kara Swisher:What does it mean for the average American athlete to have to navigate U.S. politics on the world stage and also casual fans who just want to root for their home team? Yeah, I actually think we got a pretty good example of this with the hockey team. actually, in the Olympics, or the idea of not, it was, I think it was a lot about Kash Patel, you know, pounding his drinks, his beers in there. But the thing that actually, I think, hit a lot of people even harder was when Trump called in and essentially insulted the women's team and kind of mocked the women's team in this moment where instantly, you know, one of the things that was really interesting is, you know, think about these American hockey players.

30:46Kara Swisher:They had not won gold medals since the famous miracle on ice team. You'd have to imagine all of them like, Like, oh my gosh, we won the gold medal. We are going to never have to buy a drink in this country again. And a week later, people were like barely cheering for them on Saturday Night Live. And it became this instantly polarizing thing. And what's interesting too is this is a casual fan event. Like certainly the hardcore fans, I love soccer. Everybody here on this panel, we're all into soccer. We're really into it. But like the Olympics, the World Cup is kind of for casuals, right? that's part of the fun of this is you can kind of come in, people can kind of pay attention, really, really get into it, and then move on.

31:26Kara Swisher:The Olympics are similar in this way. And we saw that with the hockey team. I think there were, frankly, a lot of new hockey fans minted from heated rivalry and then came over to go watch the men's team, got really excited, and then learned, oh, no, they're not actually fictional characters from this show that I like. They actually have their own opinions and they're going to react differently in these situations. That kind of test that, I wouldn't say the hockey team failed, but it was an impossible one to pass, I would say, is the sort of thing that is undeniably something you're going to see with members of this U.S.

31:56Kara Swisher:team if they advance, of course. You've got to keep Kash Patel out of the room is really what has to happen. Well, I feel pretty confident that Kash Patel's probably not watching a lot. He's more of a hockey guy. Is there beer there? He'll be there. Rachel, he'll be there. All of this raises, obviously, a big question about security around the stadiums. the U.S. is hosting an equivalent of 78 Super Bowls in about a month. But DHS officials admitted that 75-day shutdown earlier this year had disrupted preparations for the tournament. How prepared is the U.S. to protect fans and teams at these games at this moment?

32:29Kara Swisher:Well, this is part of the federal responsibility of hosting the tournament. And, you know, the proof is when the games start, right? An example of this was in 2024, the Copa America soccer tournament, where some fans really overran the stadium in Miami, one of the stadiums that also will host World Cup games, that absolutely cannot happen anything like that this time because the stakes are even higher. And, you know, as was the case with that match, there might be situations where there are, you know, thousands of fans that don't have tickets to the game but are just caught up in the moment and, you know, celebrating.

33:02Kara Swisher:And I don't know that we'll really know what the prep is like until one of these huge group stage games happens, like, for instance, Portugal-Colombia, which is also actually at that stadium in Miami. That's a group stage game that I wrote about that has now a get-in resale ticket price of starting at$2 ,500. That's not FIFA's fault. That's purely demand-driven. But, you know, a game like that will be an early test of just how ready the U.S. security apparatus is. And then they have the Scots rolling in, of course, against Brazil. So, again, that stadium is going to get a lot of tests. Just on this, though, I would say that tournament in 2024, that was not a FIFA tournament.

33:46FIFA, for all the criticism, one thing it's very good at is organizing World Cups. It's got a lot of history in doing this. I've always said you can host this tournament on the moon. They just pack up. They've got a book. The World Cup, it works like this. the security searches, the perimeter, all of this. That game, and it was remarkable. There were people clambering into the stadium, climbing through air conditioning vents to try and get into that stadium. I just don't think, however much the desire to get into this stadium is, any of these guys will get anywhere near a FIFA World Cup stadium in the US, Miami included.

34:32But I guess we're going to have to see that.

34:36Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

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36:42Kara Swisher:So let's zoom out and look at the big picture, the issues, what they add up to. Now, when you look at everything, there's a lot of flashing red lights around the tournament just days before kickoffs. What's the stake? Well, if this World Cup falls way short of expectations in terms of attendance, revenue, local impact. At this point, what can be done? I think nothing. correct? Yeah, I certainly feel it'll be something that maybe felt more locally than with FIFA moving forward. I think they're going to be fine. They're going to be fine out of this. I was so glad that Rachel brought that up earlier about those trains that were the buses that were going out to New Jersey, because there was this big, like, how could New Jersey Transit do this?

37:19Kara Swisher:But it's like, for crying out loud, I mean, they didn't ask for it for suddenly to have to deal with all of this massive security thing and all of these things. You talk about the different Super Bowls going on. If you'll remember when the Super Bowl happened in East Rutherford about a decade ago, it was a huge mess. It was a huge, huge mess. And I think there was a sense that they would be more ready for things now because this would be bigger. So more money was spent, more expectations were had, more things were set up, and they're just not coming through. Again, not a problem for FIFA. They're going to be just fine in this.

37:53Kara Swisher:But so many of these, not just the hotels, but like all these local businesses, they're not the ones. It's a common mistake that a lot of sports leagues in America will love to claim, oh, well, we're actually, you have to build us a stadium because it will actually help the community and it will give jobs to everyone that doesn't usually pay off. But certainly with this, there is no, like this, this is where the FIFA traveling road show really, really affects because basically they come in, get everything that came out of this and whatever happens outside of that, hey, if you can't make money off the World Cup, then we'll take it.

38:24Kara Swisher:And I think that that is, I think, what you've really kind of been seeing. Well, just on this, it's the municipalities, the public money that we should really be thinking about here more than the private sector. Because these cities have spent public money to host the World Cup, significant public money. And what they were promised was like, you spend this, but you're going to have opportunities to make money back. That public money you've spent. And the big one was sponsorship. FIFA had said to the cities, you know what? Because you're doing all of this for us, we're going to give you a chance to do local sponsorship in your cities.

39:01And then whenever they've tried to do this, almost at every turn, they've been blocked by guess who? By FIFA itself saying, actually, no, no, no. No, that's our category. Oh, you want that one? Well, that's also ours. Yeah, you might be able to get a local pizza dealership. Yeah, yeah. So that money hasn't arrived.

39:22Kara Swisher:But how big a risk is a half-filled stadium? Embarrassing, correct? Yeah. The last time a World Cup stadium, in my mind, has been empty was kind of before these times we live in. I remember some games at Italia 90, for example, being empty. And that football was obviously hugely popular in Europe and in South America. But travel wasn't as easy as it has become since then. Hooliganism was a thing back then. Like, we are in a different paradigm. And don't forget, 1994, I think, still holds the record for the best-attended World Cup. And that was with 24 teams. It grew to 32 since then. So that's what you're competing with.

40:11And so it'd be really sad if America could fill stadiums in 1994 when soccer was not popular. What are we saying about the state of this today?

40:20Kara Swisher:Yeah, yeah, we have to bring in Taylor Swift, obviously. And that speaks to the general, just the incredible frustration that so many people involving U.S. soccer, that this was supposed to be the one. This is something they've been working on for a long time. Again, 94 launched so much soccer in this country. And in the last 10 years, there was so much buildup. And then this really kind of started when the United States failed to qualify. That shifted a lot. That shifted a lot of attention, a lot of money. And it's a shame because this U.S. soccer generation of players was supposed to be the one that was built up to have this.

40:55Kara Swisher:Tarek is right. The idea that 1994, when it was just, they're playing, well, what is this tournament? This is so fascinating. This thing that was happening in the United States was such a big thing. The fact that you would have gone actually backwards. Not only does it look bad now, it looks awful for the United States, a place that was supposed to be the growth industry of soccer, was supposed to be the thing that was supposed to move forward. So, Rachel, the drama around the Men's World Cup is also affecting plans for the U.S. to co-host the Women's World Cup in 2031. The confirmation has been delayed because the White House hasn't signed government guarantees.

41:26Kara Swisher:The Trump administration is reportedly pressuring FIFA to ban trans athletes from competing before it does so. Host cities also want better deals than they're getting for the men's tournaments now. What could it mean for the U.S.-led bid to host the Women's World Cup? I think it'd be huge. I mean, for one reason, you know, this World Cup is the biggest ever with 48 teams, and the women's tournament is also going to increase to 48 teams that year, 2031. I mean, that would just be enormous for the women's game, which is much younger. Men's World Cup started in 1930. The women's started in 1991. So FIFA definitely has some catching up to do.

42:01Kara Swisher:And the U.S., there's no question, the U.S. has been the standard bearer. I mean, it has the best women's program historically, won the most World Cups, and also 1999. I think that also, at least on average, that in terms of average attendance, that Women's World Cup still holds the record for attendance. But is that at risk now, do you think? I don't think so, and the reason is because of the money. Even if this World Cup falls short of what people are hoping, you know, the big games are still going to be full. They're still going to be sold out. FIFA is still going to make its massive bag. and there's still the promise of the American market coming out.

42:35Kara Swisher:In fact, I would argue that some people who were frustrated that they couldn't afford tickets to the Men's World Cup might be thrilled to get tickets to the Women's World Cup, which even in 2031 will probably still be less expensive. And of course, you have the women's team at the center of it with a chance to once again go to the final. So I would say that's still pretty attractive and U.S. would definitely want to host it. And I know that Gianni Infantino would want to send it back here. So I think it's almost a fait accompli at this point. Right. Every episode we get an expert question from an outside expert.

43:06Kara Swisher:Here's yours. Hi, my name is Guy Galloway. I work with Kara Swisher, and I'm an enormous football fan. I go to Premier League games probably once every other week. I've been to the World Cups in Russia and in Qatar and absolutely adore the World Cup, and I'll go to several games in America. I can't think of an organization that has a better product and a worse brand. Corruption, bribery,$38 ,000 tickets for the final, and a peace award to a president who is bombing nations over and over. Why on earth would you take the purity of this sport and pervert it so badly with politics, with extreme pricing that basically makes sure that anyone who really loves the game isn't just there on kind of a corporate outing in a town?

44:03So my question is this, with respect to brand, how could you be so fucking stupid? Thanks.

44:11Kara Swisher:Well, Will, then Tarek, then Rachel. How could they be so fucking stupid? Well, they can be so fucking stupid because they're going to walk away with so much money in this. Like, the purity that he's talking about is exactly what allows all this. The fact is, I was talking to Roger Bennett, who hosts the MN Blazer podcast. We'll be kind of doing a tour of the World Cup. And he was talking about how, at a certain level, when these games start, all of that just fades away. It doesn't actually go away. But when you're watching, at a certain level, the event itself is so exciting. And the emotional attachment we have to this, all the pageantry and all the incredible things that come into this, at a certain level, we want to think about that.

44:56Kara Swisher:We don't want to think about this other stuff. The NFL used to call this an off-season problem. All those big scandals that would all pop up, the minute they kicked the game off over Labor Day, it all went away until the season was over, and then they had to all deal with it again. I think that is not dissimilar. Tarek? Simply put, I think it's the equivalent of having Monopoly on water. Why do you care about the brand when you have this product that everyone wants to buy? They know people will keep buying it. It doesn't hurt them at all. They are the masters of this universe. There's nobody else out there.

45:30Kara Swisher:So that's it. Monopoly. Rachel? I think sports fans have become just masters at compartmentalization. I think, you know, all of us are very jaded about all kinds of public institutions from politics to governing bodies that we become experts at separating one from the other. And I think that's what's going to happen here again. It's people love the games and the pageantry, you know, and that stuff is still around. But at the same time, America, it's not just the World Cup that's painfully expensive. We're also seeing four - and five-figure price tags for tickets to the NBA finals for Americans.

46:02Kara Swisher:What does this say about who professional sports are for now? Now, what happens when the average fan gets priced out of team successes? I think what sports reflects the larger society. It always has. And the notion that sports have always been more for the wealthy than they have been for the needy. But as that gap continues to expand, as we see particularly in the United States, sports is going to reflect that. That is independent of FIFA. That is, in the beat of supply and demand and all of the things that they're doing and the corruption of these things, at a certain level, sports, whether it wants to or not, whether people want to keep politics out of sports or not, these things reflect the society that they exist in.

46:47Kara Swisher:And I think that you're seeing that in the world. You're seeing that specifically very much in the United States. And so, therefore, you're seeing it in sports. Yeah. I mean, as someone who's not an American, I do find it strange. I mean, like, Will, you said, like, sports has always been for the wealthy. In Europe or in South America, these sports clubs, they grew from working class roots. It's for working class people. This is where they sprung up from, really. And it was the only thing after being, say, in a mine that will bring everyone together for cheap and watch the local football team.

47:21And now we're seeing the inverse of this with these ticket prices flying up. Yes, for the World Cup. We're also seeing it in the Premier League. I mean, Scott Galloway there, I'm sure he's not short of a few quid going to a Premier League game every other week. He's still mad. He's going to go to a few World Cup games. But, I mean, that is also, I guess, a reflection of who the modern stadium attendee is. So we're seeing here in the Premier League almost an attack on season ticket holders because those tickets are cheaper. And clubs are trying to pry those season tickets back so they could start selling them at higher prices for tourists who will attend, pay more money, buy product.

48:04So it's getting removed from the actual roots of what these community clubs are, what these clubs were, to an asset class, I guess.

48:13Kara Swisher:And I would add actually that, you know, unlike in Europe and in some cases in South America, the U.S. really has no organized fan opposition. You know, there have been cases in Europe, from what I understand, that fan groups have organized and successfully beaten back, you know, season ticket price hikes and so on. And that just doesn't happen in the U.S. I mean, very rarely. So for whatever reason, if it's because our sports didn't necessarily, you know, evolve the same way, fans are just sort of powerless or not using their power. Or they throw things. That's how we take care of it. They throw things at the people.

48:46Kara Swisher:So we talk a lot about the negatives around the World Cup, but there will still be a lot of great soccer to watch and get excited about. It's also expected to be the final World Cup for some legends of the game, like Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. Let's end there. When it comes to the actual games, what are each of you going to be watching for? And for fans who still want to watch, you can't justify the headaches of going to a game, how can they still find ways to enjoy the tournament if you're not actually going to it? Let's start with Tarek, then Will, then Rachel. I think this tournament represents the end of an era.

49:15You mentioned those two gentlemen there, Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo. although it's been a privilege for us to be around while they've been around. This sport is century old, almost 100 years of the World Cup. These two guys coming together at the same time and giving us this quality is something that we may never see again. Oh, we will.

49:40Kara Swisher:Stop it. Go ahead. Just the idea of these two guys. Maybe the final curtain on these guys. But then the beauty of this is this tournament gives a platform to the new generation. Who are the next ones? And for me, I'm very much looking forward to see if Lamin Yamal of Spain, teenager, precociously talented, already done many things. If he steps up and dominates the World Cup, that would be incredible to see. And there are many others, Michael Alisse from France, Kylian Mbappe, of course. And I can go on and on and on. and I won't. But this is, as Will said, once the ball gets rolling, we will get captivated by this tournament.

50:22There's going to be incredible storylines, players who emerge. And for people who don't want to mortgage their house to buy a ticket to Jordan versus Uzbekistan, whoever, they could just step out of your home, go into the streets and enjoy this thing because nothing like the World Cup brings people from all over, whether it's within the United States and the incredible diaspora you've got there, or the fans who will be traveling there. When they get together, this is a magical thing where humanity comes together for this one moment. And it is absolutely wonderful. If anyone was in Moscow, the night before the start of the 2018 World Cup, they would have seen an incredible sight near Red Square, a parade of fans.

51:13You walk 10 meters and you see Argentinians, Brazilians, Mexicans, Egyptians going crazy about Mohamed Salah. It was something that you won't find anywhere else, and we'll have to wait another four years to see it again. So if you're in one of those towns, just open your front door, get out there, and soak it all up.

51:34Kara Swisher:And see the humanity. Will? One thing that seems very clear that will happen from this is this thing's going to get excellent TV ratings. And one of the reasons, and I think you're going to hear a lot of stories about, like, wow, the ratings are up from Qatar and Russia. And a lot of that will be simply because these are perfect television times. And I think, like, the start times for these games, until the World Cup final, the biggest, most watched American soccer game ever was in 2015 in the Women's World Cup when the U.S. won. And that was a great team full of big personalities. It was also helped out that the game literally started at 6.30 Eastern time on a Sunday.

52:13Kara Swisher:It became like this. And that is one of the beautiful things about the World Cup. Just from a purely not going to the game and just a consumerist sort of casually enjoyed perspective, they're going to be going on all the time. You're not going to be able to walk through any downtown in any city in the United States, or really, obviously, any city in the world, and not have there be a game on somewhere and some sort of claimer and activity happening. And I think that's one of the really, really fun things for the world. Yeah, they've done a great job. And online, too, by the way. You can consume a lot online.

52:43Well, they're going to make a lot of money, Fox, aren't they? They got these World Cups for three times less than they should have paid. So someone's walking away to the bank there, eh?

52:51Kara Swisher:I always feel so sorry for Rupert Murdoch if he's okay. You have to. You have to. You just got to be like, this old man needs some dough. Rachel, why don't you finish up? So the U.S. is great at most sports, right? Except in this one, in men's sports. So I actually am rooting for the men's team. And in fact, the entire U.S. Soccer Federation was in huge disarray just several years ago. So, you know, open warfare with their flagship women's team over this equal pay lawsuit. You know, their president resigned over several conflicts. Their president is now one of the few women to head a soccer federation globally, Cindy Parlo-Cohn, a former player on the women's team.

53:31Kara Swisher:And I would argue it's in the best shape of its life. I mean, revenues are way up. They just opened a massive training center in the Atlanta area. So the U.S. is actually on an upward arc. And, you know, this will be the final test to see if the men's team can come through. But it's been an incredible comeback already for American men's soccer generally. All right. Any predictions? Who's going to win? Any of you going to dare it? Give me. France or Spain? France or Spain? Will? Spain sounds right to me. Rachel? Yeah, I mean, I don't know if this has ever happened. Tara can tell me. Has the men's and women's, have they ever had back-to-back similar winners?

54:10Kara Swisher:Spain is the reigning women's champion. So if Spain won the men's World Cup too, this would be quite the twofer. Spain. It's a good question. Yeah. Well, the U.S. has won too many in the women's. So we'll look at that. Right. And U.S. men certainly haven't won back-to-back. So, yeah, certainly their likeliest is Spain. And following up with the women's title would be remarkable. And another important prediction, Messi and Argentina, I think, will go out against the first good team that plays them. Wow. Ciao, Argentina. Oh, whoa. They're going to be very mad at you right now. They're going to come in their convoy.

54:45Please write to Kara Swisher.

54:48Kara Swisher:Anyway, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Rachel, Will, and Tarek. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you.

54:59Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Madeline LaPlante-Duby, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Eamon Whalen and Max Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're watching Messi and Argentina. If not, you're watching Uzbekistan play the Democratic Republic of Congo. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

55:37Kara Swisher:We'll be back on Thursday with more.

56:09Kara Swisher:We'll see you next time. first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.