Ina Garten’s Next Course? A Podcast

21:14Kara Swisher:So talk a little bit about this shift. You know, somebody asked me recently, actually, I thought it was really interesting. They said, most people start a business and they grow it and they grow it and they grow it and they grow it. And she said, what you do is you start a business, you shut it down, you start another business. You shut that one down and you start a third business. I don't like being the head of a company that's doing things. I like doing things. And so I think that was a really interesting view of what I do. I just, I find I have like a 20-year attention span. And I like to do something until I know how to do it, I've done it, and it's time to challenge myself again.

21:56and then I'll take it to the next level or in a different direction, but still in the same genre of food and connecting with people. And that's basically what I've done for the past 40 years in a slightly different way that may be accessible to people in a different way.

22:19Kara Swisher:Was there a moment, I always have these moments, that happens to me, when I stopped doing my conference after 20 years, which was really, when it was very successful, I was like, oh, we're done. I don't know why. I just woke up one morning and thought, oh, that's it. Because you know how to do it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's not a challenge. No. And it wasn't, then it wasn't fun, as you say. But one of the things I remember when I was a younger, it's harder to do when you're younger. It's a little easier to do when you're sort of practiced. But I was walking out of an interview in New York and I was near Grand Central Station, beautiful day, one of those beautiful New York days.

22:54Kara Swisher:And I was working somewhere and I walked out of the building and I thought, okay, I'm quitting. Like it just popped into my head. Like I'm going to do something else. I'm moving. And I moved, I changed jobs, I shifted. How did this happen for you? Well, I've done it many times. Yes, you have. Starting with Washington. I mean, I worked in nuclear energy policy in the White House and everybody thought, wow, what a fabulous job. And I thought, oh, I have to get out of here. I didn't like working in an organization, and I particularly didn't like working in an organization where it required a man to promote me.

23:32Yeah. And I thought that's never going to happen. And that was 1970, the mid-1970s. I think it's changed a little bit, but I'm not sure it's changed that much. And so I decided I had to find a parallel universe where the only thing that would stop me is my own creativity. and that's when I bought Barefoot Contessa. I think I'm very happy when I have a problem I can't solve and I think, how is this ever going to happen? But it's something that I think would be fun to do and I just figure out how to solve the problem, how to get there, how to put a team together and then we're off and running. And at the end of it, I think, I did it.

24:15That's just what I wanted to do. That's just what I wanted to look like and feel like And then I'll do that for 20 years. And then at some point go, okay, it's time to, you know, have a new challenge. But what's the signal? I'm bored. I'm bored. What was your signal when you left the podcast?

24:34Kara Swisher:I don't know. I feel like it's like some, you know, something just pops into your head and you don't know why. It's just, I just was like, I want to do that. And I had just sold my company to Jim Bankoff. Who we love. Who we love. And it was a lot of money that we sold it for. And he, I went, I called him and I said, I'm not running the website anymore. And he's like, what? And I said, I want to start a podcast. And he was like, okay. Like, that's exactly how it happened. Like, he was so easy to do that with, which is why you want to surround yourself with people that say okay a lot. But I just was like, this is what I need to do.

25:10Kara Swisher:And I'm not sure if it's out of the blue. What were you bored with in your last thing? I knew how to do it. I just, once I knew how to do it, there were no problems to solve. And television is a great medium, but things were moving. Things were changing. And it doesn't mean I'm never going to go back to TV. I'm just saying at this moment, I thought podcasting is interesting. It was kind of expanding. I didn't know whether there was a ceiling on it. But I think the other thing, too, is I was talking to somebody for about two years about doing podcasts. And as with TV, I kept saying no. I needed to figure out what I wanted it to be that's different from what's out there.

25:52That I didn't want to do just another podcast. I wanted it to be a podcast that was unique, that had a different point of view, that looked different, that felt different. And once I kind of sorted out what that was, then I was ready to try it. And I still don't know because when it launches, we'll find out.

26:11Kara Swisher:It changes, which is the best part. And it's easier to change than most of me. You can't change TV quite as easily. One of the things that appealed to you was messiness. A certain kind of messy is something you embrace in life. But you also have very high standards. You tell people never to serve anything that hadn't been made before hosting a party. You also told the New Yorker the idea of inviting someone out to dinner at a place you'd been meaning to try was appalling, which made me laugh. Well, messiness is relative. But I do like, as I said, chaos. When do you lean into the mess and when do you hold back?

26:45I think what I meant about messiness is that when I do a TV show, we film for a day and a half to end up with 22 minutes of film. When we do a podcast, we film for about an hour and we edit it down to like 45 minutes. It's the meat of it. It's not over-edited. It's not over-shopped. It's not over-thought. It feels much more organic than a television show. And that's kind of what I meant about messiness. Not messy like there's a mess behind me or there's a pile of dishes somewhere. That's not going to happen anywhere.

27:25Kara Swisher:There is never a pile of dishes in your kitchen, I'm guessing. Are you ever messy at anything, like a secret drawer? Oh, my God. I'm the messiest cook you could possibly imagine. because I like to cook and throw everything in the sink and then later clean up. But my kitchen has to be immaculate when I start. Oh, why? But once, literally, I can't even start doing a dinner party until the table is set. It's kind of like having the dress for the party. Once you have the dress, you know you're ready to go. But, I mean, if you could see my kitchen after I've done a dinner party, it's like chaos. Jeffrey actually jokes that I can take out dinner from a specialty food store and use every dish in the kitchen heating it up.

28:14Kara Swisher:Yep, yep, that sounds like. My son is a cook. He works at Boulevard in San Francisco. Oh, does he really? Yes, he's now the salad guy. It's just his first job out of college. But he started off as a prep chef, a prep cook. I can't use the word chef, he tells me. And now he's the gardien manger, the salad guy? Gardien manger. He does the cold station. What does that mean? I don't even know what it means. Garde Manger. Manger is to eat. And I actually don't know technically, but he does all the salads. Salads. That's what he's doing. Which is great. Yeah. Yeah. He's very excited. Good for him. But he's terrified of the hotline.

28:52Kara Swisher:That's all I know. These are the things he tells me. He's like, not the hotline. I'm like, okay, not the hotline. I don't know what you're saying. So talking about reinvention of career, you also haven't dramatically reinvented your identity. Everyone knows who you are, right? And at the same time, you've changed. And so talk about the North Stars and how you think about things. What a great question. I mean, as we get older, we get more clear about who we are and what we want to do. And I don't know what it is. When I started writing books, I was with the top cookbook publisher in the country, with the top cookbook editor, and I just instinctively knew what I wanted to do, and it was very different from what other people were doing at the time.

29:41They were writing cookbooks that had 250 recipes and no photographs. And I wanted to write the cookbook that I wanted, which was a cookbook with 75 recipes and gorgeous photographs and simple ingredients that you could get at the grocery store. And I think even my publisher didn't get what I wanted to do. But I was just, this is what I'm going to do. And if I'm wrong, I'm really sorry. but you'll never have to see me again anyway. And if I'm right, it's going to work. And I don't know where it comes from actually, Kara. I think it's just an internal knowledge of this is what I want to do and I have to do it my way.

30:24And fortunately, it seems to have worked so far, but we'll see if it works in podcasting. I think that making sure when I think about my brand, I always think the first thing is fun. If it's fun, people will be really attracted to it. From the store, like when you walked into the store, there was a screen door that closed behind you and it felt like summer. There was great music. There was great smells. We always had bread baking in the store. We would have a big bakery as you walked in with samples of things to eat. So all of your senses were engaged. And I love that when people walked in, they felt good.

31:09And they would say, I just came in to see what was going on. And then they walk out with three bags of groceries. And I would think, yeah, did my job today. And I feel that way about the television. If it's fun, people will really be attracted to it. So that's kind of where I'm always looking. And I think to do a podcast with people that's both interesting and fun is a wonderful thing to be able to do. Yeah.

31:34Kara Swisher:I just did a series on CNN on longevity. It was called Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever. And one of the things that got dropped out of it was what I wanted to put on my headstone when I died, which was, and it was very critical that the punctuation be correct. It was fun, exclamation point, fun, exclamation point, fun, exclamation point, death, period. Fun, fun, fun, death. That's great. I just have a good laugh going by. I love that, Kara. I just love that. Think about it. If you're in a cemetery and someone walks by, they'll laugh their ass off. And also, what's the point of you not having fun?

32:14Kara Swisher:Right. Also, but fun is also you know you're going to die, and therefore it has gravity, too. The fun has gravity, if that makes sense. But death has to have a period. Nope, semicolon. Oh, there may be a semicolon. I'm not religious, so I don't know. We'll be back in a minute. Thank you.

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36:07Kara Swisher:I want to talk a little bit about social media and how it's changing food media, though. We haven't talked much about food, but you're not on TikTok, but you're active on Instagram and Facebook, and you became kind of a meme in the early days of the pandemic with this image of you drinking a giant Cosmo. I just did a podcast with Hillary Clinton, and she's the meme queen. I mean, there's so many memes of Hillary Clinton. They're all fantastic. In a recent episode I did on career advice, I talked about how you really have to be all kinds of social media, but you also have to be authentic to it.

36:36Kara Swisher:So talk to me a little bit of how you think about social media and the incentive to constantly making new things and engaging with your audience. Well, one thing is I do social media myself. It's not something I've farmed out to other people. And the time during the pandemic actually was a perfect example of how I think about it. Because I was, you know, we were all of a sudden in our houses, didn't know what was going to happen, didn't know where we were even going to spend the days or how we were going to connect with people. and my publicist, Kate Tyler, from my publisher, said, you know, you should probably tell people what to do with what they've bought in their pantry because we've bought pasta and beans and ramen and canned goods and a lot of people didn't know what to do with it.

37:28And I said to her, I don't know what to do with it. I mean, I can think about what to do with it. And I thought about it for a day and I thought, you know what? I think it's a really great thing to do. So I posted a picture of my pantry, and I said, if anybody has things in their pantry they don't know how to cook or don't know what to do with, let me know. And all of a sudden, I mean, first of all, everybody was like thrilled that I had ramen in my pantry. What they didn't know is I'd never made it before, so I had to figure out what to do with it. So I made ramen chicken noodle soup. And all of a sudden, I found myself at home with a connection with other people, which was so much fun for me.

38:10And I actually did know the answers to the questions they were asking. So every day, I would write a recipe for something that was from ingredients in my own pantry. And so I found that social media used that way was a way to connect with people who are home in their own homes, lonely, trying to figure out what to do, trying to navigate how to cook with things that they didn't know usually use. And it really sustained me for a year. It was fantastic for both me and I think for the people that were following me. That to me is the best use of social media.

38:48Kara Swisher:Right. Is cooking for an online audience different from cooking for a TV audience or a cookbook reader? Do you see differences? Cooking online? No, not really. For an online audience when you're doing that. I mean, remember, I was sitting there with my own phone, you know, set up trying to cook something. I didn't have a, you know, food stylist, prop stylist. I mean, all the things that you have for TV, somebody checking the audio. I was just doing it on my own. and I actually started doing TV shows in my house in East Hampton. So I'd set up a phone and then I'd go, oh, I have to do my hair. I have to do my makeup.

39:28I have to do the food styling. I have to get everything ready. And then by noon, I was ready to actually do the show and I'd be cooking. And then after it was done, I realized I'd taken a pot and put it right in front of a camera. So the next day I had to do it all over again. I came to really appreciate my film crew. So it was hard, but it was a challenge and I did it. It has some versimilitude that it's your real life, right? It was. It was, exactly. And it was a little messy.

40:03Kara Swisher:So every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours. Oh, good. Hi, Ina. I'm Eleazar Sontag, food critic at The Washington Post. and I am dying to know how you feel about the current landscape of cooking personalities and food influencers. You were obviously the blueprint for so many of these people. You had one of the early food shops. You showed so many of us how to talk about hosting and our own cooking philosophies. Now there are so many people in this space. How do you feel about the way that the landscape has changed about the kind of access people have to this platform?

40:38Do you feel like it's had a flattening effect? Do you think it's done something good for the food world? Are there elements of it that you find frustrating or confusing or just downright bad? I would love to know. Thank you so much. Thank you. How about all of the above?

40:53Kara Swisher:El Azar is amazing. I love El Azar. I think there are people that love cooking and that are sharing their skills, which is great. I think there are a lot of people who are influencers who are just skirting the surface and they're doing things that look nice, but for what point? I mean, if you're doing a fancy table setting, which I hate this word, tablescape, if you're doing a tablescape and there are big tall candles and there are things in the middle that are interrupting how people connect with each other, you're just doing it for show. And I think that's a bad idea. I love table settings where the candles are low and the flowers are low, however you're doing it.

41:35I went to somebody's house the other day, and he had a piece of sculpture in the middle of the table. It wasn't even flowers. It was gorgeous, but it was low, and everybody could connect. That's what I look for. And I think a lot of people who are doing the influencer kind of idea don't really understand what entertaining is about. It's just about the show. And it's very surface to me, and I don't like that.

42:01Kara Swisher:What do you like when you see things, when people are happy doing things or interesting ideas? I mean, there's one guy who just criticizes, and very funny, he's a chef, other people doing their recipes, some of which are horrifying. You know, some of these. I haven't seen that. They're great. You know, it's just, it's so easy to take pot shots at people. It's so much harder to do the work. and share something that you love doing that you think somebody else would love doing as well. And there are too many people out there. It's kind of like you're driving in the car and somebody's screaming out the window, but they don't have to actually deal with the fact that you're hurt and you're a person and you have feelings.

42:46If you criticize somebody to their face, you have to deal with how their face looks afterwards. but if you're just driving by in the car and you yell out the window and you keep going then you don't have to deal with that and that's just not right.

43:00Kara Swisher:Yeah, that's a very Taylor Swift personality. Those people that make fun of people who are doing things are the worst. I have to say, I find people on my post when I'm doing Instagram I find them incredibly positive and supportive and every once in a while somebody has something really nasty to say and I just love that all of my followers just go, they just pile on. It's like, if you want to talk about that way, go somewhere else. Yeah. Do you wait? Like, you know, there's the Beyonce beehive. Do you have an Inus form? What would you call your fans? I don't know. I haven't thought about it. It has to have something to do with your tomato sauce.

43:40Kara Swisher:That's really, which I've made approximately 412 times at least. It's the finest tomato sauce in the land. I know you know this. I know you do, but it is your greatest contribution. I don't, but thank you. It is your greatest contribution to society. Butter. Oh, more butter. Butter, more butter. Butter and salt. Salt and tomatoes. Is there any food invents you like? I mean, do you watch regularly? Any food shows? Influencers online. On Instagram. I mean, every once in a while, I'll watch somebody making something I think is interesting. But what you don't know is whether it's any good. And I have to say, I've made a lot of recipes from Instagram that have been just really terrible.

44:26I mean, there was one guy who was saying, this is the foolproof way to make a standing rib roast. I mean, it's a huge piece of meat, and it's really expensive. And I thought, how could that possibly be? But I was going to test it. I went out and got a standing rib roast and I cooked it according to his instructions. And it was so overcooked, it was inedible. So I just, I think that what's important is that you know who you're listening to, whose work you're following, and that you trust their sense of flavor and texture and their instructions are accurate. And the people have actually done the work to make sure that you can use it, the recipe successfully, there aren't that many people.

45:12Kara Swisher:Yeah, I agree. I do Instagram recipes with my daughter, who's seven. We always try them. And I would say six out of seven suck. Like we just did the watermelon ice. You put the watermelon in the fridge and then you make ice cream out of it. And it was fun, but not delicious. Not delicious. Exactly. The bread has worked. The bread has worked. And the butter, making butter in a jar with a marble. That has worked beautifully. That is delicious. Delicious. But most of it is just heinous. But we have a good time, so that's really the point. That's more important. Absolutely. Who do you turn to looking for inspiration or making something new?

45:49Kara Swisher:What inspires you? You know, it can be anywhere. I can go to a restaurant and see something on a menu and think, oh, that's really interesting. Try it. Maybe come home and do my own twist on it. I can read cookbooks. There's an author whose work I just adore, and she's worked with me for a long time, Sarah Leah Chase from Nantucket. She had a specialty food store. My late friend Anna Pump had a specialty food store called Loaves and Fishes. I think people that have had specialty food stores have the same sensibility I do. Things have to be absolutely delicious, otherwise nobody's going to come back for it.

46:32They have to look gorgeous and look like what they are. But also they're very often things that you can make in advance because the store is making it, putting it in a refrigerator case or on a table. You're buying it, taking it home and heating it up. And that makes entertaining really easy using those recipes at home. So I find them inspiring. And you know what else I like is Ruth Rogers books, River Cafe. Amazing. Just fabulous. She's a fabulous cook.

47:02Kara Swisher:Yeah, she is. She just recently texted me. Did she? Out of the blue. Out of the blue. Isn't that nice? I know it was. What did she want? Something I had done. She liked the podcast. It was interesting. How lovely. It happens all the time. Sometimes, especially when there are well-known people like that, I don't believe it. And I did that to several different people. That's something I would do too. Some celebrity amicus who wrote me with an AOL account, and I didn't think it was them. and they got in touch with me another way. And I was like, well, why are you using AOL? I don't understand. This is happening.

47:37Kara Swisher:Anyway, you pride yourself on testing your recipes up to 25 times before you share them. I do. This is what you're talking about. You're someone who got in the food business down any kind of restaurant or culinary school credentials that historically kept people out of this line of work. What do you think makes someone an authority on food now? And how do you decide who to trust? Do I like their sense of flavor and texture in a recipe? And are the recipes easy? A lot of people, you know, when I started out in writing cookbooks, I thought, what makes me think I can write a cookbook? I had a specialty food store, but I, you know, wasn't a chef.

48:11I was the, you know, I ran the store. But I realized as I started working that I was actually kind of the perfect person because I'm a home cook that's had much more experience than most people with home cooking. And so I think I trust people who use home ingredients and home equipment, things that you can actually do at home, as opposed to a recipe. I mean, I saw a recipe once that was for a cocktail that called for, I think, one ounce of orange vodka, an ounce of lemon vodka, and an ounce of, I can't remember, some other kind of vodka. And I thought, that is so crazy. Now you have three bottles of vodka, flavored vodka.

48:58How about just regular vodka with a little orange, a little lemon, and a little, you know, lime in it? So I think if I see a recipe with demi-glace in it, you know, you don't have somebody over there making demi-glace for you. You have to make the demi-glace. So I just, I like home cook recipes.

49:19Kara Swisher:Yeah, one of the things, when I interviewed Steve Jobs once, he said, it's complex to do simple things. That's a classic. It's not easy to do something simple. Right, yeah, it's a complex thing. And that's what he always was going for the simple. Speaking of not simple, the new thing is now AI recipes, but AI can't taste or smell or feel anything, let alone test recipes dozens of times like you do. And what it does generate is a lot of slop, an actual slop, not just digital slop. Do you think AI can write a decent recipe? Because a lot of people, they'll put in ingredients and I guess they're pulling from recipes.

49:55Kara Swisher:But how do you think about that and that AI's entry into the recipe game? I've never made an AI recipe, but I did once just to test it. asked, please write a recipe for roast chicken in the style of Ina Garten, just to see what would happen. And I didn't make the recipe, but it was actually pretty good. I mean, it was absolutely a roast chicken in the style of Ina Garten with the kinds of words that I use. But would it be better than a recipe that I tested over and over and over again? Of course not. So who knows? I it'll write a better recipe than I do. But for right now, I believe in people.

50:40Kara Swisher:Yeah, you're the OG. You're the OG. So you're known, obviously, for your impeccable and highly personal taste, and that's become a currency in age where social media and AI really flattens a lot of things. I think that's the problem. It gets very anodyne. What's your recommendation for people who are looking to develop their own style and taste, and where do people start? What a great question. How to develop your own style and taste. I think you look back at things that you liked when you were younger, before you had these shoulds, I should do this and I should do that. What did you used to do when you were 10?

51:16And what did you like when you were then? And then develop from there. You have to really listen to your inner voice and pay attention to that and not try and be just like that, you know, that girl on TikTok. or that recipe that somebody posted. Just follow your joy and find the things that make you happy and then try and share it. If it makes you happy, it'll probably make other people happy as well. And it doesn't start. I'm looking at now doing a cookbook that's the best of barefoot, but 30 years later from my first book, and I go back to the original recipes, and you know what? They're good.

52:01But I can make them better now because I've learned so much in 30 years about making something that's delicious and simple, that has great flavor and great texture. And it's kind of fun to update them. So the other day I made a frittata from family style and I added a little pancetta and I added a little more liquid to it. And it was better and it was really fun to do.

52:24Kara Swisher:Is it Ina's version of Ina? Are you going to update them, all of them? Exactly. I mean, I've learned things in 30 years, and I want to share them. Do I have to do anything to my tomato sauce? Please say no, because it's fantastic the way it is. It's absolutely perfect. There's nothing to be done. My very last question, what are you having for lunch? What am I having for lunch? Soup. I love soup. What kind? I don't know. I have a couple of pasta soup at home. Right now, I would like cheddar corn chowder, because the corn is so delicious. and I love salmarejo, which is like a pureed gazpacho with a little bread in it to thicken it, which is just fabulous.

53:05Good summer soup.

53:06Kara Swisher:Oh, excellent. I think I may have to go not make some. I'll go buy some at a specialty retailer. Anyway, Ina, thank you so much for your time. I'm so excited for your podcast. I'm excited to have you at Vox Media. You'll love it. Thank you. I'm just so happy to meet you and to talk to you and it's been just great fun.

53:34Kara Swisher:Today's show is produced by Nishat Kerwa, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Madeline LaPlante-Duby, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Special thanks to Catherine Barner and Lissa Soap. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you are surrounded by people you love and who love you. If not, get that sculpture out of the middle of your table setting. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

54:08Kara Swisher:We'll be back on Thursday with more.

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