Journalists or Creators? How Media Entrepreneurs Are Reshaping News

18:57So I had to really just start to make it and show them once videos went viral, hey, this could be something that works within our newsroom.

19:04Kara Swisher:Yeah, one of the explanations when someone asked me why I left all these places earlier was I don't like mama telling me what to do ever. So that's really it. But Katie, talk about like when you run a legacy organization like that, when you have to inspire people. One of the things I did notice you did because I had run newsrooms. So I understood exactly what you were doing is you got excitement around reporting and Doge in particular. And you wrote that fucking story till like to the end, essentially. And it was an end. But talk about that, like making people excited to stay at a place like that.

19:36Kara Swisher:How do you create an organization where increasingly people are becoming entrepreneurial and they leave and they're the ones that have the most energy?

19:46Katie Drummond:Yeah, I mean, obviously, I want them to be excited about the reporting. And I think at this point, if you work at Wired and you're not excited about the reporting, I would be very surprised because those people left a long time ago. So I think that just my own energy and enthusiasm for what we do and like wanting to like fucking win. Like I wake up every day just desperate to win. Yeah, I can feel it. We can all feel it, Katie. And they can feel it. And so there's that piece of it. But I think the other piece of it for us is that I want them to be stars. Like this is my talent. And I mean that not just as like reportorial talent.

20:23Katie Drummond:Obviously, they're incredible reporters, editors, producers who work here. I want them to be known. I want them to be known as vertical video stars, as podcast hosts, as YouTube hosts, as newsletter writers. I mean, one of the first things we did when I started is we took Wired's YouTube channel, which had been built on like celebrity content, autocomplete, just stuff that had like nothing to do with the brand and that involved literally zero people from the newsroom. And we said, okay, we're going to pilot some shows where Wired journalists actually host them? Because like, wouldn't it be amazing and very rational to have our journalists on this platform that we operate as the brand Wired?

21:04Katie Drummond:So I want them to become stars. And in my view, if they become stars and ultimately that star spins itself into some sort of entrepreneurial situation where they go and launch their own thing, that's amazing to me. That's amazing for them. It's amazing for Wired. And then I go get to hire another young up and coming star and hopefully like build them up to a place where they want to go be an entrepreneur. I see that as almost like a role for legacy media to play in this instead of trying to fight it. It's like, that's what audiences want. Lean into that. Give people an opportunity to build that here.

21:45Katie Drummond:And then if they go build it themselves somewhere else afterwards, like the 404 team at Vice, I mean, they worked for me. They reported to me and I let them do their thing. They didn't need much interference. But the idea that they would have built what they built at Vice and then go and spin it off into this amazing publication that they run themselves, that's such a victory. Like, that's amazing.

22:09Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

22:23Kara Swisher:Kara here. The other day, I saw a picture of Minnesota Lynx coach Cheryl Reeve courtside. She was wearing a T-shirt that read, Trans Kids Belong. I think this was an epic move, and I have so much respect for that. Go Cheryl. This week, Cheryl is on Megan Rapinoe's new podcast, Why Are You Like This? Megan asked Cheryl why her T-shirts are more than just a fashion statement. There's just so many things that we could really champion for women and other marginalized groups. And I just heard from so many people what it meant to them. And so we've continued that. The conversation with Megan gets into why Cheryl is the WNBA GOAT, from being one of the first openly gay coaches in the WNBA to standing with her players during Black Lives Matter.

23:08Kara Swisher:She also recently became the winningest coach in WNBA history. You should check it out. Why Are You Like This? wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. People are big mad about data centers in the United States this summer, but don't sleep on how mad people are about Flock.

23:30Flock cameras, if you haven't noticed them, don't worry, they've noticed you. You may have heard about them in your reels or on Flock Talk. I have never in my life been as pissed at the government as I am now that flock cameras exist.

23:44Katie Drummond:Americans are going to war against flock AI surveillance cameras, and people are going around and literally sawing them down, absolutely destroying them. An AI surveillance apparatus goes against the very essence of freedom and the core values of our country. It's not right, it's not conservative, and it sure as hell ain't American. Flock surveillance cameras have popped up all over the nation, every state but Alaska, but this year, dozens of cities and counties across the country have cut ties with Flock. And on Today Explained from Vox, we're going to tell you why.

24:19Kara Swisher:Megan Rapinoe here. This week on Why Are You Like This? I got to sit down with legendary Minnesota Lynx coach Cheryl Reeve in Chicago during All-Star Weekend. We get into her personal style of activism, how she supports her players as people, and why she proudly considers herself a dyke. Then we learn if she's more of a mommy, daddy, or baby. Check out the latest episode of Why Are You Like This wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

24:50Kara Swisher:Oliver, you launched a video podcast, Powerlines, and you've said that entrepreneurs can't rely on one medium alone to build a business. I agree. Talk about sort of the ability to make things quickly and your strategy for expanding. Because if you had done this, I'm sorry, at CNN, you'd have had 53 meetings. You know this, right? or get buy-in or get cost or whatever. Talk a little bit about that. We would have had 53 meetings and then nothing would have happened. Exactly, that's correct. I would have had the 50, I probably did have 53 meetings on what I wanted to do, maybe more. And so one of the great benefits of leaving is, look, like we are able to launch a podcast and get things going, which we've done and people should check out Powerlines.

25:32We're able to do events. We've done two events already. We did one in New York. We did one in D.C. for White House Correspondents Dinner. We'll do more. And we can just do that on the fly. Like the White House Correspondents Dinner party we threw, which I think was pretty successful. We only planned that, I think, a couple of weeks in advance. That's when it came together. And I said, let's do it.

25:50Kara Swisher:Is there a strategy for deciding to expand? Are you worried about sacrificing depth for breadth? Because it's only you. Sure. Well, I do have John, who I hired from CNN as well. He was the CNN media editor and brought him along here. And he's been enormously helpful. And he writes a column on Saturday. So it is moving slowly beyond me, but I do want to expand. And I think that there are verticals that we can expand into that are adjacent to media and power. And I also want to expand our media coverage and maybe hire some more people to get more scoops on what's going on in some of these big companies.

26:24He's maybe hiring someone who can cover Hollywood specifically. Maybe tech media is another vertical. Maybe Wall Street's another vertical down the line. There are a lot of intersections between media and power that I think we can cover. And, I mean, it has to work in terms of revenue, though. That's the thing. So, you know, I would be thinking, can this person bring in at least probably double the subscription revenue that their salary is going to cost? Because it's not only a salary, but you have to pay for a lot of infrastructure around them. and what is it going to look like in terms of our bottom line?

26:57So I will think about those things as we move forward. Right now, though, Key is getting advertising on our current inventory because if we can do that, I think we can lock a lot more revenue.

27:07Kara Swisher:More choices. Katie, I'm going to ask you about that, linking people's revenue and salary. But first, Dave, in the past year and a half, your Washington Post universe, YouTube, had 75x more engagement per video than the Washington Post flagship account and 6.6x more overall views. It's just you. How do you translate that to the, especially in dollars and cents for the post? What did you do for the bottom line? Because it's a question everyone's asking. Will social media keep us relevant? Is it just marketing? But you clearly tapped into something because no one wanted to watch their stuff and everyone wanted to watch yours.

27:41Yeah, I mean, I got to give credit to Carmella Boykin and Joey Ferguson, who are also co-hosts of the account. um but yeah there was intention behind what we were doing the youtube and we we talked about there's you know internal discussions about the main youtube channel needs some help and some like someone to be chaperoning it there was no coherence happening there whereas our channel was very intentional there was a lot of branding every day there was a discussion over not just like um what the overall brand looks like but how do we approach every video and make it feel like they're all part of the same quote-unquote universe um and it doesn't mean that videos had to be the exact same that just mean tonally, you know, let's really dial into that.

28:17And that's something that I care about and get really excited about. And, you know, it's like Oliver's point, a lot of times there's meetings and they don't go anywhere. But I'm the type of person where, you know, when I pitched TikTok three months later, they said, OK, I guess let's try it under the radar. And I was like, I'm just going to do it. And I'm just I'll ask for forgiveness later kind of situation. And there was a lot of that happening up until the very end of like people want merch. Let's open a merch store. And, you know, I think that luckily, again, the post was like, all right, I guess they're doing this.

28:45And so they appreciated when they saw the results, I think. And I always felt confident that we were going to have results. But I don't know how much it helped the bottom line. I mean, certainly there's like the AdSense revenue, even with shorts, there's something there. But what I always said and would continue to say for the post, but especially going forward with Local News International, is we're building trust long term. It's not a short term thing. Like they might be short videos. And of course, I'm going to get into long form videos as well. But this is like a relationship that's been built over time.

29:15And part of what really helped with that is that it was built for a big part of it during the pandemic. And I was really committed to posting when I felt good about it almost every single day. And I found from a lot of people that that helped kind of create, you know, a parasocial relationship, but in the most positive way. And I think also that built trust when I started to dive deeper into topics that, you know, actually newsy topics when before it was just like, oh, my God, is Dave going to go crazy in his apartment? It became like, oh, that guy I watched every day is telling me about what's happening in the war in Ukraine.

29:48I'm going to listen to him. And obviously there's a big responsibility there. But anyway, to get back to the question, it was kind of unclear how much money it was making. But I was just like, I'm going to keep making stuff that works. And see what people like. What to do with it. Yeah. Yeah.

30:01Kara Swisher:So Katie, talk about that idea of like taking it like when you have those entrepreneurs, which you and I think both celebrate, these media companies paying attention to that and attributing people's salaries to revenue. I have done that for years. I was when we were at Wall Street Journal. I'm like, we made you five million. I'm taking half. So there you go. Or more. Right. You know what I mean? Like if you can attribute, is that something you think about a lot?

30:26Katie Drummond:I do. I do think about it. I mean, look, nobody at Wired. I love them all. they're not making me$5 million. If someone did, I would be happy to work out what that rev share looks like. I do think that sort of the incentive model in journalism has to account for that entrepreneurship, right? Like that desire to take a big leap to try something. If that thing is successful, that person has earned a stake in that, right? Like they have earned a seat at the table. And I think it's important to recognize that, especially if you want to retain them.

30:56Kara Swisher:This has to tell you, it's been a very difficult road to get people to acknowledge it. One of the biggest risk factors, and I'd like you each to talk about it, for news at the moment is the threat of litigation, including from the administration. CBS and ABC coughed up$16 million and$15 million, respectively, to settle lawsuits with President Trump. Meta paid$25 million to settle. Now Trump is suing The Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch to the tune of$10 billion. That's with a B. After reported on a birthday card he allegedly wrote for Jeffrey Epstein, these companies with huge legal teams and insurance.

31:25Kara Swisher:Talk about the implications for smaller media entrepreneurs. Let's start with you, Oliver, and then you, Dave, and Katie, from a perspective, you're part of a bigger organization. But one of the reasons I never did Substack is, like, I'm not going out on the savannah with Peter Thiel out there. He's a hyena, and I'm like— The water's fine. Not for Kara Swisher, it's not. Let me just say, I think about it. Like, that's one of the reasons I never did one, even though I probably would have made quite a tidy sum at any of these places. Oliver, talk about that. How do you think about that? Because a lot of whether I know Substack has legal stuff, but it's not very good.

32:00Kara Swisher:Like, it's just not protective in the way that a Vox Media is or Condé Nast or whoever it happens to be. No, I think about this quite a bit. You know, Beehive, they give up to a million dollars in defamation insurance. They'll pay for that. So that's helpful. But it's, you know, a million dollars can go like that when Elon Musk's lawyers come calling. So, you know, we pay a lot of money for extra defamation insurance, tens of thousands of dollars. I'll just leave it at that to make sure that we're covered if, you know, we're reporting on people with big egos and thin skin. And knock on wood right now, nothing's happened.

32:38But I've reported on these people for a while and I've been sued many times when I was at CNN and I know how this works. And so it is something we think about. We pay a lot of money for it. And that's one of these different things, these hidden costs that people don't see. Even just getting defamation insurance right now is extremely challenging for a small independent publisher because there's a chill in the air. These insurance companies know that there are people like Elon Musk or Bill Ackman or Donald Trump out there, and they don't really necessarily want to often take the risk on insuring a band of two in Status's case at the moment, right?

33:12They don't know, like, I'm going to go on a podcast and they're going to insure it. And who knows what those two are going to say? Why would we take their money? When you think of independent journalism and the actions that these billionaires are taking these days, this is one of the things I worry about, that just them filing these lawsuits is problematic. And you saw what happened with Media Matters and Elon Musk. Yeah. According to The New York Times, they had a story this weekend. They're even considering shutting down. And that's a huge organization backed by a lot of wealthy donors with a lot of defamation insurance.

33:43So it can get very costly, very quickly, even if the person filing the lawsuit actually has no case.

33:49Kara Swisher:Right. That's correct. That's usually they don't. Dave, do you think about that? You're sort of doing humor, right? Right. It's funny because I funny literally, but I sometimes I wonder how much can the humor part kind of soften the blow. I don't know if it does. I mean, with South Park, I think the opposite happened. But I think, you know, a lot of the times what I have found with our content is that it appeals to conservatives in a very weird way that I didn't anticipate. However, we're also in the same boat as Oliver in many ways where we're working on extra insurance, but also we're part of Beehive, not Substack.

34:23And we're both part of the media collective, which includes that what he was talking about, some coverage there. So it's not, you know, it's not like we're not going to be totally safe in any scenario. But I do feel like, you know, it's as safe as you can feel. And I guess I'm feeling a little bit like I've always felt, which is I would just I just want to keep doing what I'm doing and I'm not going to be afraid of it. I have people around me like Lauren and Micah from The Post who are good at kind of hitting the brakes when we need to on things. So that's why they're there so that I can kind of do what you want to do, feeling the freedom to try things.

34:55They may. Oh, let's dial this back like just a touch. I should also note, Cara, too, we have attorneys with which we can consult on sensitive stories to make sure we're buttoned up legally as well. So hopefully we can avoid.

35:06Kara Swisher:It still doesn't prevent them from doing a nuisance. Doesn't doesn't prevent. But it helps. It helps a little bit. Katie, how do you think of it as you know, you guys went full bore at Milan, really, and the whole Doge team?

35:18Katie Drummond:I mean, I think that we go full bore a lot and we are threatened with lawsuits a lot. Um, we have great lawyers and I feel very, very lucky to be able to say that. Um, I, this, this may be naive or self-righteous or whatever, whatever you want to call it. If it's true and it's newsworthy, we have an obligation to publish it. We will publish it. Come what may. and that's how we thought about that, that Musk reporting and that's how I think about all of our journalism. You know, I worked at Gawker Media when Peter Thiel sued us out of existence and I worked through that bankruptcy.

35:56Kara Swisher:Via Hulk Hogan. Via Hulk Hogan.

35:58Katie Drummond:Do not rest in peace. Do not. I'm ambivalent about his prospects in the afterlife. Like I've seen the very, very worst of what this can do. It was horrible. But I think if anything, it has just made me dig my heels in even more. Of course, journalists, like, we need to be incredibly buttoned up. We approach those stories as we approach any story incredibly carefully. Like, I am a maniac about that. If I say something's going to legal, it's fucking going to legal. I don't care if it delays the publication of the story. Like, it is going to the lawyers.

36:32Kara Swisher:Yeah, I'm always like, you better be right. You better be right. I'll kill you if you're not right, yeah.

36:38Katie Drummond:And yes, like, being right doesn't always protect you from ridiculous, terrifying, existential lawsuits, but you have to publish the stories anyway.

36:48Kara Swisher:So I want to go a bit deeper on this new focus on personality, authenticity. A Reuters Institute survey on journalism trends earlier this year called it the creatorfication of journalism, which I don't like any more than reporterpreneurs. What does that mean to each of you very briefly? And where do you see the possible benefits and risks of leaning into that creator economy? I myself am that, I think. I have become that. I love it. Talk each of you. Why don't you start Oliver and then Dave and then Katie? I think all journalists are creators. I mean, we're all creating content. And I think everyone should embrace that term.

37:22I think for a long time, legacy news organizations and big time anchors might have looked down on that term. I'm a journalist. I'm not a creator. Those are the TikTokers and we're above that. I don't think that's the case at all. In terms of authenticity, I think that is a major selling point for us as status is that people know that they're getting me, they're getting John, and we're calling things out and we're not beating around the bush. We're not watering down the reporting. And we're going to say the things that people are certainly thinking, but really too few are saying out loud. And that's for a variety of reasons.

37:57But it's very difficult sometimes at a major news organization to have color in your reporting and have some flair and have a little snark. And that's what makes it kind of fun, too. I think the readers like it because it's a little bit fun. People love Kara Swisher because Kara Swisher is not—no one tells her what to say. You say what's on your mind, and you hold people's feet to the fire. And that's what I think—

38:17Kara Swisher:We pioneered that at All Things D, the personality aspect of it, and people were very pushed up against it. Dave, what about you? You know, I think on the authentic part, too, you know, we talked about, like—or Katie, you were talking about how do we approach things and how do we think about it? We're just going for the truth, right? As sort of Pollyanna cheesy, as that may sound. I think part of my authenticity has always been my moral compass. And like early last year, I was doing a lot of TikToks where I was kind of poking fun at Biden and a lot of people were very precious about it. And I was like, why are you being precious about it?

38:47And of course, like five or six months later, everyone was in agreement that, wait a second, this is kind of strange. And so I think that takes me anywhere, whether it's what you perceive as left or right in the authenticity part. And And that is always, for me, comes out as humor. So I think that's really easy to kind of capture people there. As far as the title of, you know, I'm pretty ambivalent to the word creator. I think it's totally fine and we should embrace it as much as you want. But like for me personally, I'm the video editor first. That's what I enjoy the most in a video is the hour or two where I'm really editing something and making it, punching it up and making it funnier.

39:22Kara Swisher:What about you, Katie? How do you think about that idea of creatorification?

39:26Katie Drummond:I mean, I am thrilled for journalists to embrace the tools and the platforms and the tactics of creators. I think that that makes perfect sense. I think it's all about connecting the journalist to the audience and creating that direct connection, that conversation. um what i worry about i think is the creator adopting the persona of the journalist and that to me is a different thing yeah that does not involve dave or oliver or any of us on this call and that and that is where i start to worry about audiences not understanding the difference between someone who plays a journalist on tv this schmuck someone someone playing a journalist on tiktok as opposed to like, oh, the actual journalist on TikTok.

40:12Katie Drummond:Like that is where I start to worry about the dilution sort of between those two professions, I guess I would say.

40:18Kara Swisher:Yeah, I just had a back and forth with some Maha creators and I've got all their information from Google. And I'm like, if I could reach to the video and hit you, I would. That would. There you go. Yeah, exactly. So when you think about that from the modeling point of view, for example, Dave, YouTube creator Samir Chowdhury told you that he thought that creators could take ad money, subscriptions are a better model for journalists because they're only beholden to their audience. I am not of that school. You said you're a video editor. You wrote in your introductory email, you'd be working with brands and partners as well.

40:50Kara Swisher:I was always in that camp. At the time we did it, it was very controversial. We did both subscriptions and advertising. What will be different here? Obviously, you're not going to do like, you know, your videos. Oh, isn't meta a great product, like that kind of thing. But how do you plan to make money at that? Yeah, I, you know, I think with anything, and I'm sure the way you've approached it, it's always a case by case basis. So there are certain brands where I'm like, I'd be totally comfortable talking about that on camera as a brand that's either apolitical or I, you know, support something that I'm totally behind.

41:23And then partnerships, you know, we're talking with all kinds of people about what, you know, a long form series could look like with anyone. And that also plays into like, does it look good if we're working with these people? What does it look like? Again, you just kind of look at all the factors and decide if it's worth it.

41:37Kara Swisher:So right now, subscriptions are more important or advertising? And same thing for Oliver and Katie. Right now, what do you think is most important? Each of you. Very quickly, Dave. I'd say subscriptions just in the sense of audience building. I just care about the audience most. Katie?

41:50Katie Drummond:Same answer. Subscriptions to me are our direct connection to our audience, and they are our escape velocity from a very turbulent advertising industry, right? It will always be that way. A very turbulent commerce business, right? It will inevitably be that way. sure subscriptions can rise and fall but but for me if we can build that business to a place where it takes on the majority of the kind of financial burden for wired that is a very good place for us to be so oliver easily subscriptions we do everything for our subscribers and so that's that's where uh that's where effort is and that's that's the those are our customers we want to make them happy at the end of the day and we want them to uh value our product yeah i have to say for

42:33Kara Swisher:pivoting on advertising. We can't, we run out. Like, it's funny. We would go to subscriptions if we needed it, but it's a really interesting, we thought about it and we're like, we don't need to, you know. I will say, can I say one point? It would be great if we can get the advertising though at status to allow our journalism or some of our journalism to be more accessible to people who can't afford to purchase a subscription. And so that's something that's on my mind as well, particularly in this moment where like there's so much toxic misinformation out there. How do we get good information to everybody?

43:06If we can have advertisers basically pay for that and subsidize that, that would be very helpful and something that we're obviously cognizant of and trying to figure out.

43:17Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

43:30Elon Musk and a lot of other very smart people think we're all going to have robots at our house any day now. But when you look at where the tech is today and how far it has to go, you might reach a different conclusion.

43:44Katie Drummond:This idea that humanoid robots are coming to live in our house and I went and explored that is just not true. That's Joanna Stern, the tech journalist who spent a year outsourcing her life to AI and robots. That's on Channels, the show about tech and media and what happens when they collide. wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

44:03Kara Swisher:Every week we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours from a fellow media entrepreneur. My name is Mehdi Hassan. I'm the founder, CEO, and editor-in-chief of Zeteo, a news media company that I founded on the Substack platform last year. My question is, how do we, in the independent media, independent journalism space, especially online, where people are in an increasingly polarized and partisan America, in their bubbles, in their echo chambers, how do we avoid the problem of audience capture, of simply giving our listeners, our viewers, our subscribers, what they want to hear, not what they need to hear, because we're afraid of losing subs, losing revenue in a very competitive online space.

44:47How big a challenge do you think that is for independent media, especially subscription-driven outlets like my own?

44:53Kara Swisher:All right, Katie, why don't you start, then Oliver, and then Dave?

44:56Katie Drummond:I mean, look, I think that we have a point of view, and we will always have a point of view, but that point of view is underwritten always by the truth and the facts. So to me, it's like, I'm kind of tired of having this debate about how we reach everyone, how we, like, reach across the aisle with our facts. Fair point. I'm like, I'm going to collect facts. I'm going to collate that information into a story. I'm going to put that story everywhere I possibly can in my magazine on my website on youtube on tiktok on instagram on reddit in a newsletter I'm going to I'm going to put it everywhere you can find it and if you choose to engage with it or not that is up to you but like that is the best I can do so I think lead with facts lead with the truth be transparent about your point of view and where you're coming from and what your worldview is don't try to pretend to be playing both sides Don't try to pretend to be objective.

45:46Katie Drummond:That's not a real thing. Just be honest. Put your journalism in as many places as you possibly can. And I think that at that point for me, I'm like, I have done everything I possibly can. And if you don't like it, don't read it. Right, right.

46:01Kara Swisher:Oliver? I just don't see this, I mean, for our publication as a problem. We try printing scoops every night, reporting every night, and people subscribe for new information. And so you do have a pretty you do have a tone. We have a tone. But I'm like, it's an excellent tone as far as I'm concerned. It is a hard hitting tone. It's a good tone. It's a tone. But you'd be surprised, Kara, because I hear from, you know, Republicans and people on that side of the aisle who read still because they know that we have information that's accurate and that they want to know. And so I think when you weave maybe a tone with some reporting, it can appeal to pretty much everyone because everyone wants that information at the end of the day.

46:46So report. Once again. That's what we do. Reporting wins. Reporting wins. Delivering and information wins. And if you just have a tone and you have no new reporting, I think that's when you're in trouble because people will say, well, I don't really like the tone, so I can just tune out. And that's a problem. Dave? Every day I make a video and I approach it entirely differently, and that's by design. And that's kind of my own creative desire to just approach something differently. Like Katie said, my point of view is really not changing. I mean, if it does, it's probably like a little bit one direction at any given time, but it's not really changing and it hasn't for years.

47:17But I look at sometimes I'll look at all the thumbnails on the main TikTok or YouTube page and go, is everything starting to look too similar? And so I go, let me approach this next story, which might still be about Trump or something we've been covering, but in a totally different way. Not with a different point of view, just a different way of covering it, whether it's like, you know, people call them new sketches or it's like straight to camera. I just think about it differently and I try to cover it that way. And I think that helps the audience to start to think about the story in a different way.

47:42Kara Swisher:You didn't think about putting an eye on a penis, I guess. I guess someone else did that. No, I just put it on spam cans. I want to go back to the AI spotification of the Internet. AI is clearly this looming challenge for the media industry, according to Pew's study from April. Americans don't really think that AI is going to have a negative impact on news and journalism, but one in five Americans, roughly the same for Republicans and Democrats, said they thought AI would do a better job at writing a news story than journalists. How are you using AI in your work? Katie, you start, then Oliver, then Dave.

48:11Kara Swisher:You've said humans a lot. So each of you, briefly, how do you think of AI as a benefit and a negative?

48:18Katie Drummond:Well, I mean, I think it is, as of now, a net negative for the internet and for the way people access and consume information. I will be totally honest with you. As the editor-in-chief of Wired, I think a lot of people wish I would say, like, we are all in on AI. We are using it all day long. We're not using it to write our stories. We're not using it to generate images. We're not using it to generate video. We fundamentally do not believe in that and we do not do that. There might be like fun experiments that we'll do in the future using it where we would be very transparent. But as of now, it's not something that we feel comfortable with.

48:55Katie Drummond:It's not something we think is necessary. You know, we use it in our reporting in sort of a background way. If it's like a data investigation, if we're parsing thousands of pages of documents, we use it in functions like copy editing or other sort of like more administrative roles. but that's really the limit. I mean, we are genuinely very focused on doing what AI can't do. I think our actual new tagline for our features program is something like AI could never. Like that's actually like a theme for us. Oh, that's good. AI actually can't do what we do. Right, right. And it can't. I do not believe that it can.

49:33Kara Swisher:Oliver, and also, are you worried about getting like AI news boted, for example? I mean, I think building on what Katie was saying, I don't really think AI can do what we're doing on a nightly basis, at least not yet, unless sources are going to start talking to robots and divulging secrets to robots, which I have a hard time believing will happen. Maybe that's in our future at some point. But right now, that's not the case. And so I think I would be worried if status were printing, you know, if we could just be aggregated and we weren't doing any original news or any original reporting, that's what would worry me.

50:07And I think a lot of news organizations that do a lot of that stuff, they're probably very worried right now because AI can write those stories. I've used it or experimented with it as a business consultant of sorts, replacing maybe a McKinsey, you know, fed its subscriber information. Like, you know, this is how many we have now. Like, how many do you estimate we'll have in the future? And it will like make you like a 30-page research document. Useful. You know, with a whole bunch of projections. I mean, look, I think it's useful and it seems fairly accurate. I wouldn't bet my life on it at the moment.

50:40Kara Swisher:Neither would I bet a McKinsey report, the same thing. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't pay for one of those either. So I think it's good to experiment with the technology and not be standoffish to it. But in terms of, like, is AI going to start writing status tomorrow? I mean, it's not capable of doing that right now. So it's not something that like we're thinking of because we're just not engaged in the kind of journalism that I think it's like most likely to replace the next five years. What about you, Dave? Yeah, our unofficial official slogan is news for humans by humans, except for my dog Lola, who's on LinkedIn, Lola Jorgensen.

51:16She she actively posts mostly just barking. But I feel like I similarly feel like I haven't had a use for it yet. I did do this video with MediaWise. I'm an ambassador for them and they're part of Pointer. And I'm really proud of this video we did together because it was about for reporters who are using AI, here's how you properly disclose it. And again, not doing that myself yet, but I think at least we should be promoting how to safely attribute it if you are using it. Because right now it's pretty much the Wild West, so just do whatever you want with it.

51:47Kara Swisher:So two more questions. How do you predict we'll be getting our news five years from now and what role will each of you play? Let's start with you, Oliver, then Dave, and then Katie. That's a really tough question, Kara. I think, I mean, I do think that newsletters will still be a thing. I'm banking on that. It's a direct way into people's inboxes. There's no, at the moment, there's no algorithm. There's no SEO game to play. People sign up for something. It gets delivered straight into their inbox. And so that's certainly a trend that I see. I don't really see reversing. I hope it doesn't reverse.

52:23And then, you know, video. I think everyone's going to be leaning hard into video because everyone's scrolling on their phones nonstop. And I don't really see that changing either. So I think that's why we just launched a video podcast. That's why I think that major news organizations are going to be launching on video and trying to make their reporters on-air talent, if you will. And I think as these cable networks actually in linear and broadcast television declines, I think that the next version of television is going to be these shows. You're seeing with comedians already. You're starting to see with news creators.

52:56And I think it's going to continue.

52:57Kara Swisher:Dave? Yeah, I'm certainly betting on video. And I guess I have been for a while. And I think part of that is just, you know, adapting to whatever the newest form is. The, you know, even five or six years ago, I asked, I would be asked about TikTok, which we're already on. What do you think the next version of TikTok is? I felt like people were thinking about it wrong. It's not necessarily the next app. It's what's the next version of an iPhone or what's the next iteration of the iPhone and how are people like, is it going to be just a hologram? I don't know. But I mean, I think that's what you should be thinking about is when that happens, that's what we have to adapt to.

53:28Katie Drummond:Katie? Well, probably from chatbots to some extent. But I hope that it is, you know, people are obtaining news and information in five years in a very direct way. Get rid of the Facebooks, get rid of the Googles, get rid of the intermediaries. direct connection to journalists like Oliver and Dave on all of these different platforms, in your inbox, on your TikTok, whatever it is. More direct, the better. And I will either be still running Wired and hopefully will have spawned some Olivers and Daves of our own, or I will be the CEO of a company that supports journalists like them in a more effective and strategic way than the substacks and the beehives of the world.

54:15Kara Swisher:Yep, that's a great answer. There's a lot of needs. All right, last question before we go. I'd like each of you to give a piece of advice to your fellow panelists. Round Robin, where should others lean in and where should they each shift gears? Katie, why don't you start and give advice to each of them? Wait, what? Yes.

54:31Katie Drummond:You want me to give advice to each of them?

54:32Kara Swisher:Yeah, I do. I just said that.

54:33Katie Drummond:Katie, let's hear it. That's what I just said. Oh my God. Okay, Oliver. I would like you to continue to lean in to your strong point of view, your voice, and your scoopiness. I subscribed to your newsletter almost immediately after it launched because you had so many annoyingly good scoops that I had no choice but to pay to read them. So keep going there. And then I would like you to lean out of suggesting links to tech publications or sort of future-facing publications that are not wired. I do find that very irritating when I read the newsletter and I'm like, it's just Vergelink, Vergelink, Vergelink.

55:15Katie Drummond:Like, come on, man. We need more Ryer links. OK, I got it. You need a few more. OK. So there. Sorry, I don't know if this is. That's good. That's a good piece of advice. It's not useful.

55:22Kara Swisher:It's a good piece of advice.

55:23Katie Drummond:Dave, you know, there was a moment earlier in the conversation where Oliver was talking about his defamation insurance and sort of the legal scaffolding that he had built for his publication. And then I heard you talk about that and I got a little bit stressed out. So, Dave, make sure you have really good lawyers. Yes. I told him this. I told him this. Because even if conservatives love you, you're going to piss someone off and you're going to need really good lawyers.

55:50Kara Swisher:So just please. Yeah. Lawyers. Write it down. Lawyers. I appreciate it. We do have them. Okay, good. Yeah, don't worry. I guess I got a little bit too into them, but I'm going to have fun. But no, we have lawyers. Okay, good. Okay, Oliver? Dave has the best lawyers. Don't even mess with him. The best. The best. Okay.

56:07Katie Drummond:Dave has great lawyers. Yeah. OK, it's my turn. Yeah. Well, I guess to Katie, let people be entrepreneurial inside Wired as much as you can. We don't know each other that well, but I don't get the vibe that you are someone who subjects your reporters who want to grow and do cool things to endless meetings. But I would just I mean, I just think that there are so many people who end up going on their own because of frustration with the red tape inside their companies. And I feel like newsroom leaders can definitely retain a lot of talent and build businesses within their businesses if they just cut through that and made it easy for reporters to not only build things, but also just even report.

56:46I remember when I was at CNN, people ask me now, I guess, why do you get so many more scoops at status than at CNN? And I would say, well, it's because I'm more incentivized now. And I feel like, just to be totally honest, at CNN, there's so much bureaucracy. It de-incentivizes landing that scoop. or like chasing it down because it's such a pain to clear the reporting. So that's what I would, my advice to you. And it sounds like you're on it, so.

57:10Katie Drummond:No, I mean, I will say CNN does have a bit of a scoop problem, but that's for another conversation. Okay, all right, okay, all right.

57:16Kara Swisher:Okay, and Dave? My advice to Dave, and I've already given this advice to him, but I'll give it to him here, is get a bookkeeper, get a bookkeeper soon because you don't want to get behind on books. And I am dealing with taxes now and having a good bookkeeper makes that so much easier. So fun that you're talking about. You don't have to worry about it. I love you. Oh, you're all my love. Don't think about these things, though. I know. Don't think about these things. Now you have to. Yeah. It's weird, though. The next podcast I'm doing is bookkeepers and lawyers. Okay, good. So this is really preparing me.

57:44Kara Swisher:So your advice, Dave? I feel, well, I've been saying this a lot in the last week or so, but I feel like 10 toddlers in a trench coat. So giving you advice feels very silly to me because I look up to both of you. um but i guess in that um vein i would say to you katie like if have anyone that works for you listen to this podcast i think they'll have a lot of confidence hearing you talk about it if they haven't already heard you talk this way thank you yeah i i if i were in their position and heard you talking about i would feel very emboldened well the post should have been able to keep you dave but at this time i cannot confirm or deny that statement um but uh yeah oliver i mean i i this is so silly but the thing that keeps occurring to me this whole podcast and i'm just a visual learner is I want more people to see your setup right here.

58:28And you're so meticulous in how you do everything. And the people at Beehive told me that as a compliment, that everything you do is so thought out. I mean, they're seeing it through your newsletter. And obviously you have clips of this, you in the studio, but I just want to see more and more of the inside of your brain, I guess. I'm just, I'm more and more fascinated. Oh, wow. See? Yeah.

58:46Kara Swisher:I have one piece of advice for all of you. As I always say, don't let mama tell you what to do. You'll love this new era. It drives me crazy when people are very negative about the media. There's so much exciting stuff going on, both at old legacy media companies with great leaders and in these independent things. And so I think it's really important for people to think about it that way instead of giving up because it's very easy to feel disheartened, but you don't have to be. Anyway, thank you so much. I really appreciate you're all wonderful journalists. And one of the things is you're all creating high quality stuff for people that they really enjoy and either pay for or advertisers pay for.

59:24Kara Swisher:And that's a really great sign. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Cara. Thanks for another exit interview.

59:35Kara Swisher:On with Cara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yoka, Megan Burney, Alison Rogers, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. special thanks to Bradley Sylvester our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is by Trackademics if you're already following the show you are humans for humans if not, get a good lawyer go wherever you listen to podcasts search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine the Vox Media Podcast Network and us we'll be back on Monday with more