Life After Trump: Astead Herndon On What’s Next for American Politics

14:46Kara Swisher:Yeah, because there is a real clapback.

14:47Astead Herndon:That's the risk of that sort of genuineness or authenticity. The clip farming can make one moment into a larger definitional space. And I think that's, if you're playing from a place of risk, particularly as a politician, that's been why they've been so distant from it.

15:02Kara Swisher:Right. The question is, does it really hurt? Because Trump just keeps barreling fucking through. But he's obviously radically reshaped American politics, and he's not just the communications. He tried to overturn the election in 2020. He's been an authoritarian bender since he was reelected with mixed success, I think you'd have to say, but mostly Republicans have gone along with it. So how do we fix the irreconcilable differences between MAGA's authoritarian tendencies and those who believe in democracy and the rule of law? I do believe without the person there, there is some—J.D. Vance isn't likable, nor does he have the same power, charisma, however you want to use it.

15:38Kara Swisher:So what happens in this post-Trump era as you're starting to do this podcast?

15:44Astead Herndon:You know, one of the things I remember from my time in Trump land is how many of their voters would clarify how we're not a democracy, we're a representative democracy, we don't have a direct democracy. They would use that as kind of an insulation from their fear that a more direct democracy, as the country was changing, was going to displace them in terms of power. And I think it's been a really motivating factor for Republicans, even as Donald Trump has made this authoritarian bin, is that a lot of them have come to hear that democracy term. And Fox News is telling as a way for secretly voting illegals and George Soros-backed groups to steal elections.

16:27Astead Herndon:And so it allowed fertile ground for Trump's authoritarian push. It was fertile ground for an electorate that was primed to say, hey, this system as is, is actually moving away from us. And so that's the question I kind of start with when we think about after him is like, can there be a renewal of democracy? Or are we kind of changing our floor into this kind of inevitable slide? And I think one of the things that, you know, like, obviously animates that question is I think it was a real mistake for Democrats in 2024 to pitch democracy as a thing that just Donald Trump broke and not a thing that needed fixing overall.

17:10Kara Swisher:Renewal.

17:11Astead Herndon:Yeah. And that there was an opportunity to say, hey, you know, let's make this better. And that's the way that we recommit to this. Because I think what I hear from DR Independent is an understanding of a broken Congress, right? A desire for things like term limits, particularly with the stuff like the Supreme Court. Like, there is an understanding among people who are distant from politics right now that things aren't necessarily working or that system seems at least outdated from responding to people's concerns. And so I think that that is an opportunity for anybody, particularly as we move toward this next election, to say that's part of my vision of a post-Trump America is to renew a commitment to some baseline principles that he's blown up.

17:56Astead Herndon:I just think that for Washington, they have a little bit of their self-interest as that odds here, too. And so that's where these outsider candidates are kind of interesting to me. Because that's ground that they can take up more clearly. And they can say things like, you know, removing money from this stuff or super PACs. And I think Washington gets uncomfortable with that.

18:16Kara Swisher:Yeah, but I don't think they're necessarily doing the old fighting Washington thing. It's a very different thing. It's, you know, usually it was like, I'm here because I'm not a creature of Washington. I think they've moved past that, some of these candidates. And they're all different stripes politically, which is interesting. And I think the ones that go, I'm here to fight Washington, I'm like, oh, that's really what I want. I want some new, fresh ideas, right? Yeah. And so they sort of dismiss it, you know, like, well, yes, of course, we know how we feel about that. Like, they're past it in some way.

18:44Astead Herndon:Yeah, I think solutions are the key point. Correct. I think there is a diagnosis of problems that's kind of agreed right now, partially because I think Trump era has laid them bare. And so I don't think you're going to win on just saying, hey, this is an issue. Like, I think that that was something that even I think back to the 2020 Democratic primary, like, it was a policy paper contest. And I think that'll be a little different now, too. But I do think the burden will be on a party that even Democratic base wants ideas, wants a feeling of fight, yeah. But I think that mostly is expressed in your level of political creativity.

19:27Astead Herndon:You know, how are you showing me that you're going to do this? How are you showing me that you're going to go beyond the rhetoric we've already heard? Right.

19:34Kara Swisher:Donnie did this really well when they were asking me about it. He's like, I'm really not concerned about that. I'm concerned with the potholes and I'm concerned with this. And of course, I'm thinking about that, which I think is sort of like a dismissive, like this thing, which is interesting because the other day, I think I said on Pivot, I'm like, you know, we can go on and on about the history of Donald Trump. There'll be a million like thumb sucking essays about whether Donald Trump, what does he mean? What now post, whatever you're just waiting for all those, which I will, none of which I will read.

20:03Kara Swisher:And, but what's interesting is I said, it's actually an opportunity to say he's broken a lot of things. Well, okay, what are we going to build now? We don't have to build it back. Right. Like what, what didn't work? What, what did? And everyone's like, oh, how could you say that? I'm like, Because a lot of things are broken. Like, I think everyone has a sense of that. I mean, he's broken them, but what do we want now? It gives you an opportunity for renewal, which is, I think, what you're aiming at with this podcast.

20:30Astead Herndon:Yeah, I 100 % think that's where a lot of folks are. And so our goal is to see the seeds of that. Like, what are the groups who are going to define our post-Trump future? We're thinking about the growing parts of the electorate, first-generation Americans, people of faith, people who had necessarily been marginalized, or people, young people, people under 30. I think are a big one for us in terms of who's going to drive some of that future. People's anxiety about changing work economy. And I think the place that tech plays in that is a huge thing for us. Like, we want to track some of that. You know, I'm in so many places that are talking about the inevitability of, you know, job displacement and things.

21:08Astead Herndon:And then you're in the electorate that feels kind of resentful that everyone's talking about this from a certain place, you know? And I'm like, what's the impact of that gap? How does that get manifest itself in our elections and things like that? And so taking the issues and then taking the buckets of people, I think, help us find some of the seeds along the way. Because by the time we get to an open 27 primary, I think that's when they're going to be expressed. But the candidates will be vessels for those things. And those things will already be, I feel like, defining animating factors among voters themselves.

21:41Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

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24:21Astead Herndon:I'm Estet Herndon, and this is America Actually. We're all talking to each other to see what did we do wrong? What did we not see? I'm in Washington, D.C. this week to interview Ruben Gallego. He's a Democratic senator from Arizona, and he's been thinking openly about running for higher office. But he's recently run into some hot water because of his connection to Congressman Eric Swalwell. I have to learn from this and I will learn from this. But, you know, for me, it's not a 2028 question. It's about what it means to be a better first boss in my office and also a better senator to my constituents.

24:55Astead Herndon:This week on America Actually, we asked Gallego about predatory behavior in Washington, his plans for immigration reform and more.

25:08Kara Swisher:So let's talk about where MAGA movement is and whether or not it's splintering. I think it is. It seems like it. It doesn't seem like just a TV show, rivality show. It certainly could be that, and Trump's shows have done that. But he's attacked Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, Alex Jones, Candace Owen, all of them, and critical of Trump over the war in Iran specifically. Comedians Joe Rogan, Andrew Schultz, and Theo Vaughn have been publicly reconsidering their support, although Joe Rogan, all it takes is to give him a psychedelic, and then he's back. What a thirsty fuck that guy is. Anyway, is that really happening?

25:39Kara Swisher:Talk a little bit about that. Yeah. And explain for people. I mean, obviously, several of them are doing it for show. They make content out of everything. There's not one feeling that doesn't go unexpressed by any of them, essentially.

25:53Astead Herndon:Yeah, I mean, I think for people who haven't lived in the turning points world, you know, like I follow Charlie Kirk on some of his tour. And leading up to the 24 election, you know, I used to go to Turning Point events a bunch and Trump won. If you haven't lived in those kind of podcasts, I don't think you can fully appreciate how much of a fundamental promise Donald Trump broke with the Iran war. Like, this is something that has motivated that group for a long time, that they have talked about as the defining factor of why Donald Trump was not traditional Republicans. And so even as he flagrantly broke every other promise, even as he tariffed his way to inflation, even as he does things that were clearly violation of campaign promises that they just accepted, they kind of held on to this piece as a reason of why he was still distinct.

26:43Astead Herndon:So now that has blown up. I think that's why you're seeing some of this spill out. And it is, I think, an early indicator. We're starting to see some of this in numbers. In the recent NBC poll that was released this week, I was looking at Trump's strongest level of approval rating among Republicans is at its lowest level yet. Yes, that's still like 79, 80 percent. But he's usually in the 90s, right? He's usually in a kind of universal agreement among Republicans. The other thing I would say here is this is where it matters that Donald Trump's coalition was built off of more than just traditional Republicans.

27:16Astead Herndon:Because the people who are the most likely to break from him from the Iran War debacle are people who came to him for that kind of nontraditional reason. And when you look at, like, the Tuckers and all that world, their audience is mostly younger folks and people who would not define themselves as traditional Republican Party these days.

27:35Kara Swisher:Right. He's tormented.

27:36Astead Herndon:And so, yeah, at least. So in those people, I think there has been a legitimate backlash against. And so.

27:45Kara Swisher:Combined with Epstein, presumably.

27:47Astead Herndon:Combined with Epstein, which I think was a big factor in that, too. And so I think that you get you start to see some of those flavors. I was talking to, you know, we have this Trump MAGA radio host on. His name is John Fredericks. And he was he was admitting that, you know, if I could change. He was like, if I could change two things, it would be tariffs and Epstein. I'm like, those are big things, you know, like those are. And bearing walls. Sometimes because for us of who have known Donald Trump to be a liar or be a manipulator or whatever the whole time, I think there can sometimes be a, oh, here they go again, just making content or they just say this and they make it to make up.

28:24Astead Herndon:And certainly that might happen, but I think this is a little different because of just how fundamental no forever wars and specifically no regime change war with Iran was to Donald Trump's relationship to this world. Right.

28:36Kara Swisher:There's also anti-Semitism in a couple of them. For sure. For sure. Right. Israel, anti-Israel. And there's certainly much to criticize Israel, especially Netanyahu about. But they're like dyed in the wool. Absolutely.

28:48Astead Herndon:I mean, what Tucker Carlson's doing is beyond just some like, you know, principle critique of Netanyahu. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

28:54Kara Swisher:The other day, Marjorie Charlie Green, who's so reasonable these days for some reason, like on certain issues, I'm like, ask her about trans. She'll go right back to shape. Yeah, yeah. I'm like. I was like, I'm sorry. But one of the things she did, she was talking about the war. And I do believe she's quite sincere, right? It's a sincere belief. The two things that are sincere to me are Epstein and America First, no wars. Yeah, I mean, for that crowd. It is.

29:18Astead Herndon:They believe those things from him. One hundred percent. I think Epstein is, for folks, even more shocking because we knew the facts about his relationship with them. But he had presented himself as, you know, the poor man's rich man. And so that was core to his relationship with that base. And I think in that, even that like QAnon-y conspiratorial universe that has gotten wrapped into a lot of this, they thought he was going to come back and open the floodgates for the Clinton crimes. And I think the reality of that has swallowed up a lot closer to home than they thought.

29:51Kara Swisher:Oh, yeah. When Epstein first happened, I was in those groups. And I think Scott was like, oh, it's going to blow. I'm like, this is not going to blow over. You don't know. You don't understand. This is core. Now, a group of people that were maybe not core, but certainly convinced that Trump could help them were Latino voters who helped propel him to victory. But a recent poll by Third Way in Unidos, U.S., found that Trump's unfavorability number is now 66 percent with Latino voters. Talk about this coalition.

30:17Astead Herndon:Yeah, we've seen it in the special elections. We've seen it in places like New Jersey. It's been big shifts in kind of Latino voting communities. We just did an episode talking about immigration changes. And we were talking to reporters from Arizona who were talking about the 180 they've seen specific to Donald Trump's actions. I mean, I think when we talk about Latinos, you know, you have to talk about from a first place, a diverse group who doesn't always see themselves in a community. They always see themselves as a linked group. I'm like, you think I have anything in common with Richard Grinnell?

30:49Kara Swisher:I don't think so.

30:50Astead Herndon:At first, if you've ever been to some of these places and you're looking at them as if they are having the feeling of connectivity with someone crossing the border in El Paso or Florida or other places, some of that's not always true. We should acknowledge that.

31:05Kara Swisher:That's hard for us to understand. Yeah.

31:07Astead Herndon:But I think another core point here is Donald Trump did have a diagnosis of a couple of particularly border security, that I think sometimes people conflated with his mass deportations push, which is unpopular, right? But, like, the less people coming across southern border is largely popular. Yes, it's very popular. And true among even some Democrats who felt that that was something that was ignored under Biden. I think you also have to acknowledge, like, you know, particular to, you know, when we talk to kind of folks who are in Latino communities, a faith-based community that, you know, some of the pushes that we're seeing about, like, democratic liberalism, I'm thinking about abortion rights and about LGBTQ rights, had a backlash in certain areas, particularly a lot of faith-based areas that we saw alongside border.

31:59Astead Herndon:But I think the most important thing that's happened in the last two years is simply he just taking all of the accurate diagnosis and not focusing on solutions. And so it is not hard. to follow who's to blame for rising prices right now.

32:15Kara Swisher:Right, exactly.

32:15Astead Herndon:Because he made it quite clear by an obnoxious tariff announcement nobody wanted and by a war to raise energy prices nobody wanted. And so I'm like, everyone gets that. That's the number one driver of that.

32:29Kara Swisher:There was also the brutality of the...

32:32Astead Herndon:There's the brutality of the immigration push too, I think plays a big role.

32:35Kara Swisher:I had a lot of people who are conservative who were like, well, I believe in strong borders, but not this way. Like, it was a lot of, but not this. I believe China is fucking us, but not this.

32:45Astead Herndon:I would ask people, you know, they had mass deportations now signs at the RNC. Like, some of this was not a surprise, right? But I think people's assumption of who, right, always falls to, you know, the bad guy. You know, they will follow through on their promise of targeting violent criminals or people who have been convicted of a least a crime. Right. And that's not what we saw, right? That's how we saw L.A.

33:09Kara Swisher:But not my gardener, not my babysitter, not my—

33:13Astead Herndon:Exactly, exactly. Renee Goods, like, you know, like—

33:15Kara Swisher:A mom dropping her kid off, yeah.

33:17Astead Herndon:Exactly. All the things we saw was a disconnect. And I just think in general, like, they embrace a showy— You know, Stephen Miller wanted 3 ,000 arrests per day. Yeah. That was not about who was being targeted.

33:31Kara Swisher:No, it's just clean it up.

33:32Astead Herndon:Yeah, that was about a projection of a type of person They want to make feel uncomfortable. So I think those numbers are a reaction to a message they intentionally tried to send about who was welcome here and not. And I don't think that was the issue that they were sent there to do, even if, you know, I would say discriminatory language or that type of rhetoric has been there the whole time.

33:55Kara Swisher:Yeah, because then he's talking about you.

33:57Astead Herndon:Exactly.

33:57Kara Swisher:Now, another group that has been very tight with him, the Christians, obviously, but bickering with the Pope and posting a Jesus-like image of himself. Marjorie Taylor Greene called it, more than blasphemy, it's an antichrist spirit. Everyone's trying to do this doctor thing, but it's hard to imagine evangelical voters pulling the lever for Democrats, notwithstanding the appeal of James Tallarico, who I like to call Baby Jesus. But talk about this evangelical support. Has it splintered? Is there an opening for someone like Tallarico, who's quite progressive, I would say, if you listen to him?

34:31Astead Herndon:I personally, I think that— I think they'll stick with him. Yeah, I think that—I have come to the kind of Pavlovian response with evangelicals that they stick with him. And partially that's because of my—in my own reporting, they have—the bar that they've set for—to break with Trump is so high. Because it's not about his personal actions. It's barely about his policies. You know, when I talked to Al Mohler, a conservative theological seminary a couple years ago for this show, he was saying that he was willing to back people who had stormed the Capitol in that midterm, even though he found that to be an anti-democratic move because he was so scared of the rise of gay and trans people on the other side.

35:16Astead Herndon:And so I'm like, if it's always that motivating factor, I think a lot of those folks always return back to conservative or Republican politics. I find the Catholic stuff really interesting, though. I think that more than evangelicals in my question there, I find Trump's fight with the Pope to be indicative of his lack of his, you know, I think he chose better targets. Or at least that he was a big enough figure that the targets he chose feel kind of small. I think this Pope is a losing battle. I think that's why you feel Vance stepping away from it. And honestly, I think, you know, even the growth among Catholicism, among American young people and things like that.

36:01Astead Herndon:Welcome to my world, my son. I'm like, those type of things to me have an interesting question of like, does evangelicalism, does that wave of Christian nationalism retain its kind of primacy in Republican politics as we move forward? I think that's the question I have.

36:17Kara Swisher:Yeah, let me give you, my son was, we were talking about Protestants and how the German princes wanted Martin Luther to do it because they wanted power over the Pope. There is a lot more political stuff happening at the time. So each Protestant denomination have to have different—you can find a very conservative Protestant group of evangelicals, and you can find a very liberal one. And one of the points he was making, he said, the reason I like going to church is that there's all different people on all the—you have Opus Dei, and you have the Jesuits, and you have this, all under one doctrine.

36:48Astead Herndon:Under one consistency, yeah.

36:50Kara Swisher:And it is one doctrine. It is. And so— You know, that's what's attractive to him about it. And which was interesting. I hadn't thought about it. I was like, oh, you're right. There's not 10 different flavors of it. There's different people in it, but they live within the Pope organization, essentially.

37:08Astead Herndon:I have heard people make this argument about the power of it be that kind of consistency in monoculture. You know, I come from the most Protestant background ever, and my father's a Pentecostal pastor. And so like all of us, sometimes like Catholicism, I feel like I went to a Catholic college, I went to Marquette. And so I was sometimes like learning the like kind of rituals and other things like later than other people. And I remember someone making this point to me and I finding it quite powerful. They're like, you can be in any part of the world and be any type of person. There's all these different disciplines and they are all based in the kind of same construction.

37:41Astead Herndon:And, you know, that kind of wavering of personality or theology that you could sometimes find among

37:46Kara Swisher:disagreements, right? About women.

37:48Astead Herndon:Yeah. In a world of difference, that kind of sameness and pointing to something actually, but felt more powerful. So I can see why he made that argument.

37:55Kara Swisher:Well, it was interesting. He's like, I like that and I like disagreeing, but it's also one doctrine. And the Pope is at the top of it. I'm like, you don't break the Pope. You don't. Like, it's really, even among people who don't agree with him.

38:11Astead Herndon:Also, this Pope, you know, don't mess with the South Side of Chicago. Like, pick different fights, Trump.

38:15Kara Swisher:This Pope is smart. Speaking of communication skills, this guy's got him in space. So last thing about the Republicans, and we'll talk about the Democrats. Speaking of the next GOP nominee, who do you see taking over the MAGA mantle as you're starting this exploration? Who is it?

38:30Astead Herndon:I mean, obviously, it starts with J.D. Vance and others, but I definitely think that he is showing the difficulty of how to maintain the Trump coalition without Donald Trump, right? And so whether that is from a personality lens or I think from a principles lens, like I think J.D. Vance has tried to give MAGA-ism a set of principles and to pretend as if it's a kind of consistent thing. But then he finds himself on the wrong side of stuff like Iran or stuff like Epstein-Files.

38:58Kara Swisher:He's also lacks charm. I said he has the charm of a cyber truck, but go ahead.

39:02Astead Herndon:Yeah, I mean, he's changed who he is so many times for the purposes of ambition. I feel like we have to also say, who will the version of J.D. Vance in 2028 even be? We don't even know that.

39:12Kara Swisher:He'll call himself they, them if he needs to.

39:14Astead Herndon:I'm like, the man has been 10 versions of himself for that breakabout.

39:18Kara Swisher:So is there someone emerging? Because one of the things I was thinking of is benches. And I felt like the Democrats have a better bet. Like, there's a lot of people coming up younger. Like, I don't know who they are. in the Republican Party, because it's so on, Trump's on top, and then you have all these others.

39:32Astead Herndon:He also has, particularly in the midterms he's been president in, pretty much chosen the worst candidates possible for the purposes of building a bench. But I think Trump's lasting impact, honestly, is their primeness for an outsider, right? So I don't think when even Republicans think about bench, they're looking back to, you know, House members or someone on the rise in Congress. I think that like, you know, even someone like, I would put the RFK juniors, I would put Marco Rubio, of course. But I do think someone can make an argument for kind of principled version of MAGA-ism. I don't know if that's a Marjorie Taylor Greene.

40:12Astead Herndon:She's kind of been too anti-Trump in the last— Is there any figure you see that you're

40:16Kara Swisher:intrigued by as you look?

40:18Astead Herndon:I guess not. The first thing I felt about Republicans like six, eight months ago was that Vance was putting himself in a pickle. And I think that's everyone can see that now. But he has a lot of interpersonal clout in that world. And so more than the question of like, will the public want someone to run against him? I wonder if someone with credibility in Republican circles runs against him simply because they seem to like, have liked the guy privately, you know, more than even publicly. And so I guess I don't have any other options yet or any folks who are catching mind yet because I think Republicans have been very deferential to him in terms of laying that path for him.

41:00Astead Herndon:That's not going to last. And so I think he's going to have first right of refusal and if that flop happens then floodgates open. But I think it's a real a big chance that flop happens.

41:13Kara Swisher:Yeah, I think he well maybe if he has a baby shows the baby off. I don't know. But I think he makes Mike Pence look exciting. So every episode we get a question from an outside expert. We actually have two for you to answer. Here's the first. From Lulu Garcia Navarro, host of the New York Times podcast, The Interview. Hi, Ested. Hi, Cara. I'm here in Maine, which brought to mind a question. It seems like the upcoming midterm elections are going to tell us something about where their respective parties are at. and it seems like a lot of the fights are about what a post-Trump world is going to look like.

41:52Kara Swisher:So I'd love to get your view on where you think those fault lines are and if there's going to be a place in the Republican Party for people like Susan Collins, who will be running again in Maine as senator, and where you think someone like a Graham Plattner, who is seeking the nomination for the Democrats to run against Susan Collins, where he fits in and all that. And, you know, where the bases are at respectively, it seems like there's just like a lot of insurgent energy. See you soon.

42:30Astead Herndon:One, I think she's totally right. Like, there is insurgent energy, and Graham Plattner's riding that. A lot of those scandals that, you know, came out, a lot of folks thought would be kind of fatal for him, and every poll has a bigger and bigger margin from Janet Mills.

42:44Kara Swisher:Because he explained it.

42:45Astead Herndon:He explained it. He was clear about it. But I think also there is a growing acceptance that real people or real candidates have passed, that they have lived on the internet like the rest of us, and they have said and done stuff on the internet that they may have regretted. And if I think folks feel that kind of authentic explanation from you, they're willing to hear it. I think the Susan Collins example is an important one because Republicans have kind of given her a little bit of space to just run her own race, right? Like, she's had her tips with Donald Trump. He's, you know, necessarily talked about it.

43:17Astead Herndon:But they'll find a way to obviously financially and kind of rally around. What I think it just shows, though, is that the excitement, the energy, the new ideas are coming from the Democratic side right now. You're not seeing kind of Republican midterm candidates who have really gotten their bases on fire. They're still kind of living in the Donald Trump personality shadow. And so people like Graham Plattner are bigger, I think, than the individual brand of their party. And I think that's a change right now because of how invested the Democratic base is. I think a big shift that's happening is that the most interested parts of the Democratic base, the most people who are most politically news savvy, have become so much more activist-y, so much more invested.

43:58Astead Herndon:They want a fight. A hundred percent. And that kind of no-kings-ish shift. I'm like, it hasn't been necessarily—maybe it's become a little more progressive, but it's certainly become more activist. It's certainly become more, less passive for I think the traditional democratic playbook. And so I think those shifts are some of what we're seeing in Maine and I think what we're seeing across the country.

44:20Kara Swisher:Great. And here's the second expert question from Ben Collins, the CEO of The Onion. Kara, Astad, hello. Great to see you from the wonderful state of Chicago. This is Ben Collins, the owner of The Onion and also operator of InfoWars, so there's a war on for your mind, you know? Anyways, first time, long time. I just wanted to ask you a quick question. Don't give me a bullshit answer like Amy Klobuchar or something. Who is your real secret dark horse for 28? Like, mine is like George Clooney. I think you can do much better than that, but I want like a name. Do you not, like, if you say Alyssa Slutkin,

45:03Astead Herndon:Kara just turn the podcast off like end the podcast I want to hear like a real left field that you legitimately think could win both the nomination and the presidency in 2028 so thank you I love the question the only unfair part here is he stole the good answer with George Clooney I'm definitely team outsider as underrated I definitely think that there is appetite for someone who represents to clean break. I think things like experience have actually decreased in importance around the electorate and creativity and ideas like we talked about matter more. So I think that name ID plus legitimacy on like some liberal credentials.

45:48Astead Herndon:So he took Clooney, I'll take McConaughey or maybe like a brown version of... People are kind of down on the rock these days. I'll just plus one his Clooney. I think that's a good call and I think that's the exact type of lane I'm talking about.

46:04Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

46:12Astead Herndon:Now's the time to save on new carpet at the Home Depot. Receive 10 % off your total carpet project and 12 months special financing. Plus, we'll measure your space for free. Choose from a variety of stylish on-trend options fit for everyday life with LifeProof, LifeProof with pet-proof technology, home decorators collection, and traffic master carpets. Save 10 % and get 12 months special financing now at The Home Depot. Offer valid April 16th through May 3rd, 2026. Exclusions apply for licenses. See homedepot.com slash license numbers. This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm breaking down the institution everyone's talking about right now, but nobody actually understands, the Federal Reserve.

46:50Kara Swisher:With all the drama happening between Trump and Fed Chair Jerome Powell, you're probably seeing headlines and wondering what any of this has to do with your money. Spoiler alert, it's everything. I'll explain what the Fed actually is, why it exists, and how this one institution controls the interest rates on your mortgage, credit cards, student loans, and more. We're diving into why raising or cutting rates isn't just boring policy talk, it's the difference

47:15Astead Herndon:between affording a house or watching prices spiral out of control. Plus, I'm breaking down the current controversy over firing Fed board members and why both Republicans and Democrats

47:25Kara Swisher:are freaking out about it because this fight isn't just political theater. It could mean real chaos for your wallet.

47:31Astead Herndon:Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash your rich BFF.

47:36Kara Swisher:All right, let's get to the Democrats. According to a poll by Civics, white non-college graduates currently have 70 percent unfavorable opinion of the Democratic Party. That's actually good. It seems like being anti-Trump isn't enough for the Democrats, even when Trump is unpopular, as they said. It's never-ending internal debate over whether the party should moderate its social positions or broaden his appeal, double down on progressive economic policies. Talk a little bit about this. Would either one work with working-class white voters? Bernie is still enormously popular, and it seems like AOC has headed that direction, too, but maybe she's a lady, so they can't stomach of that.

48:13Astead Herndon:I remember being in Iowa in 2019 and meeting this guy who was so torn between Bernie and Mike Bloomberg. And I remember thinking like, what, you know, what's the consistency here? You know, like, and you talk to people for long enough time and the consistency is not in that ideological spectrum, right? He's not pro-billionaire one day and anti-billionaire the next day. He basically liked a guy with strong-ish beliefs who he felt he knew what they cared about, no matter if what they cared about seemed to be at odds with one another. And I say that to say, when we talk about this kind of ideological fight, I think the Democrats' biggest problem is clarity of beliefs, no matter what those beliefs are.

48:59Astead Herndon:So I think you can own a kind of moderate lane in a Mikey share away and show that, you know, I'm going to require a national emergency to lower your electricity prices. And that makes a lot of sense. But I think you can also have clarity in the Zoran way. And that makes a lot of sense in that place.

49:15Kara Swisher:It's a similar message.

49:17Astead Herndon:What I think you can't do is waffle on naming the villains of an affordability crisis or inflation and things like that. And I think there are issues that have such root among electorate, they become litmus test for authenticity on will you speak truthfully about villains? You know, I think Epstein's part of that. I think APAC money is part of that now. Like, I think there's ways that you have to show yourself as being trustworthy to follow through on said ideas around electability. But more than anything, I think that the conversation about where to fall on this ideological spectrum inherently leads them in bad directions.

49:58Astead Herndon:Because if you're putting your finger to the wind and saying, that's where you're starting from, and how do I calibrate that correctly to where people are, that's the wrong process.

50:10Kara Swisher:Yeah, so basically what you're saying is we have to all agree. I'm like, no, you don't. Why do you have to agree?

50:15Astead Herndon:No.

50:15Kara Swisher:Because I think Mamdani's single-minded focus on affordability is working, but even though it's hard to imagine a democratic socialist winning in another state. Talk about the practical lessons here, because obviously he's charismatic and he's just a really wonderful communicator in so many ways. I have yet to see him stumble in something and, you know, it's easy to stumble. But talk about what that does, because, as you said, Mickey Sherrill or Abby Spanberger or, you know, Tallarico couldn't be more different from each other and from him, right?

50:48Astead Herndon:Yeah, I mean, I think they're coming to things, though, with a desire for political creativity. I think they're not seeing the system as is. And I think you have to pitch from the premise of that sort of change. And what I would also say, though, is like, it feels like Democratic base has recognized that the normal shell game of kind of electability is not something they're inherently deferential to. So I don't think you can just say, you know, as they're finding out in Maine, as they may find out in Michigan, that this person's supposed to win and this person win and the electorate just follows.

51:21Astead Herndon:I feel like they've, you know, a lot of people feel like they have been told the right thing to do for too long and that walked them into a Donald Trump, you know. And so that kind of thumb-on scale, particularly from the DSCCs of the world, is not what's working. Now, does that mean that there could be no moderate candidate that wins? Absolutely not. Like, I think that that means you need to be someone who has your own version of a vision that isn't someone who is like, you know, so I think about the Michigan Senator Alyssa Slachner and someone. Even, you know, she was having that back and forth with Hassan Piker about whether to come to Michigan or not.

51:57Astead Herndon:And I remember her response being like, you know, I don't want to go on the stream because of how this person's talked about me for a long time. And I'm thinking, like, that's like a clearer way to articulate what I think is someone who is, you know, trying to show themselves as fighter and all those things. Wants to stay distant from far left, but does not want it to be because she can't handle those questions. Or she finds you like, but it's, you know, so I'm saying, like, there's a way that I think you can show your values, show clarity in those values. and also not make the far left or the growing progressive lane inherently off-putting to you, right?

52:30Astead Herndon:Like, I think that this next year will be an effort to build that coalition, but it's going to be difficult because we see these litmus tests, you know, popping up already. Yes, you do. And I think you see an electorate that... Is sick of litmus tests. Is sick of...

52:46Kara Swisher:It's so interesting, you know.

52:48Astead Herndon:It's like, does it fall on that same litmus test barometer as kind of political elites do. So they're imposing these tests that I don't think is where voters are, you know?

52:59Kara Swisher:No, purity tests on both sides. And by the way, Republicans are abusing them more at this point. You know, some on the left in progressive areas can be really irritating. So can some of the centrist people be really irritating. But the purity test thing is really, chafes people's asses as far as I can tell. Like, can't I have different opinions? Now, that said, Virginia voters just paved way for a Democratic-leaning new map to help counter Republican gerrymanders in states like Texas and Ohio, and AOC had the right point. We're playing their game. If they want to play this, she was excellent messaging that, I have to say.

53:31Kara Swisher:But according to population trends, the 2030 census will lead to Democratic states losing 6 to 12 House seats. Republican states gain the seats in corresponding electoral college votes, and Supreme Court is poised to overturn Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act and potentially at least another 19 seats to Republicans. Talk about looking past the midterms, how you assess the medium and long-term prospects for Democrats.

53:54Astead Herndon:Yeah, I mean, you're right that it was an impressive kind of short-term push for things like Virginia to happen. I think they fought Democrats to semi-neutral or even close to leading for when it comes to this year's midterms. But the long-term population shifts, the trends towards Republican areas will be bad for Democrats in the Electoral College. You know, the Senate kind of proportion gap will be harder and harder for them to find their way to things like 60 votes. And I think, you know, even we think about the court packing that Donald Trump is engaged in, that obviously is difficult to wind back with lifetime appointments.

54:26Astead Herndon:And so, you know, obviously the kind of structures of government have given Republicans, I think, a clear advantage in the sort of long-term power sustainability. But Democrats have known some of these challenges. There was the reason why the John Lewis Act was supposed to be a top priority for the Biden administration in terms of like trying to have a national bulwark against gerrymandering and trying to make Congress at least more equitable. They weren't able to pass those things. I think if you're a Democrat, what I do think is more true now, though, is a willingness to use power and a willingness to pull the levers in ways that I think traditionally, I think it took them a long time of seeing Donald Trump do that to embrace that themselves.

55:08Astead Herndon:And so I think if there is a Democratic president in 2028, there will be a much more concerted push for a— A more muscular activity. Yeah, for a more muscular rethink of some of these structures for a project 2028-ish, you know, 2029 sort of thing where they're thinking about how they even use things like the federal workforce or how they restore those types. And so, like, that type of kind of 360 rethink, I think, allows there to be more solutions on the real structural things you're identifying. But without that, that is where Republicans know they have permanent root. They're not as worried about their waning electoral advantages.

55:54Astead Herndon:Because, one, you know, they, eight years ago, thought they couldn't win any working class people of color votes. They now learned that that's not something that's like inherently off-putting to them. And then the second thing I think they know is they know that there are some of these structures that baked in their power. And so I think if you're a Democrat, that has to be amongst the priorities. But if there is some more willingness for the party to at least exercise its power.

56:21Kara Swisher:You're seeing the governors do it. The governors, the Democratic governors are impressive.

56:25Astead Herndon:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a big push too. Pritzker's one of those. Newsom, obviously. All of them. Yeah.

56:30Kara Swisher:In different ways. There's very few of them that aren't quite good at what they're doing. Like, and you could see their popularity, too.

56:36Astead Herndon:And I think that's what we're talking about in terms of like.

56:38Kara Swisher:Yeah, you're in Michigan and we love Gretsch, even Republicans. Yeah, but not maybe as much, but still.

56:44Astead Herndon:That type of willingness to do what you came there to do and show that proof point, I think, is a lasting impact of the post 2024 era for Democrats.

56:53Kara Swisher:So wrapping up, we only have just a few more minutes. You know, there's lots of issues. The war in Iran, obviously, with two thirds of Americans disapproving how he's handling it. Obviously, the Epstein thing still still sticks over everything. He's there in the room every moment of the time that will eventually wane, probably. But, you know, the war for sure is one of these moments. Gas prices, affordability. There's so many things. And of course, Trump says gas prices will drop as soon as the war ends. But he's not telling the truth. But how do you look at what the most important issues are moving into the midterms as you're looking?

57:28Kara Swisher:Because the midterms is about post-Trump. It really is. It's about what now. What do you think the key things are?

57:37Astead Herndon:Like, the first, the easiest thing for the midterms is the popularity of the president. And I would say what kind of gas prices are, you know. And I think in the trade direction that we're in, in the tariff to inflation direction that we're in, that's all bad signs. I think the second thing you think about with the midterms is like the candidate quality in those individual races. And Democrats have basically gotten the candidates they mostly want. That also helps them in these sort of things. And so I think that when we're looking at the seeds here, all the signs do add up to something that would be a better night or at least the conditions are right for Democrats to do what they hope to do in the midterms.

58:16Astead Herndon:I guess, to me, we still go back to that structure question because it can be a blue wave or a blue trickle or whatever. But the way that we have drawn these maps means that if that doesn't happen in a concerted area for like, you know, if that doesn't happen in these three Arizona House districts, you might still be thinking about only a one or two seat majority. And so that's the hard part about these midterms, is that the pure expression of people's displeasure does not inherently mean some national wave reflected in Congress.

58:51Kara Swisher:Right. That's a very good point.

58:53Astead Herndon:And so I think people should temper some of the expectations with that. But to answer the core question, are the conditions there? And what are the first things we should look at? We should look at this president's massive unpopularity and particularly the pain he's driving in people's pockets. That will be the most important factors.

59:10Kara Swisher:Yeah. So last very quick question. On a hopeful note, America actually has a partnership with Report for America, an organization that puts emerging journalists in local newsrooms nationwide. I'd love you just to end on what are some unreported positive stories you're getting from these young boots on the ground reporters?

59:27Astead Herndon:Yeah, we just talked to one in Arizona who was telling us about the mass organization among young people who have done a lot of the grassroots pushing back against Trump's deportation policies. We're collecting stories from them about the World Cup and about the ways that is kind of logistically changing some of their communities, but also bringing a sense of optimism and a sense of representation to parts of their states that felt unseen. And so I really like them as like a touchstone to the ground. I really like them as a way that we get a sense of original reporting outside the bubble. But I'm excited to get even more things from them.

1:00:06Astead Herndon:But, you know, we expect them to be at gas stations this summer and talking to people at, you know, the pumps. What they're talking. And what they're feeling, too. And so their ability to feed that back to us, I think, will really help us out.

1:00:18Kara Swisher:Haven't been grocery stores. I, who don't look at prices, I don't. I just never do. I never have. I'm like, what?

1:00:24Astead Herndon:Yeah.

1:00:25Kara Swisher:Like, I've never done that in my life.

1:00:27Astead Herndon:Yeah, no, it's wild out here. I feel like when I was outside, when I was doing a lot of that reporting, Walmart parking lot's my favorite. And so we'll have them there too.

1:00:36Kara Swisher:Yeah, yeah, which would be great. Like a lot of places, because I think there's, I think voters are much more, I always trust voters to be more articulate, even though, you know, you can make fun of MAGA people or whoever doesn't know stuff. That's easy picking.

1:00:47Astead Herndon:Yeah, but when it comes to prices, when it comes to how that feeling and the clarity of how much that matters more than other things. I love hearing that firsthand.

1:00:56Kara Swisher:Right. Ested, thank you for your time. You can find America Actually on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. I'm thrilled you're here.

1:01:03Astead Herndon:I already appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me, Cara. I had a blast.

1:01:10Kara Swisher:One more thing before we go. Want career advice from Cara Swisher? Now's your chance. We're doing a special episode about all of it, and I want your questions. Send a video to on at voxmedia.com and you might be featured. Can't wait to see what you've got. Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Sam Lee, Catherine Barner, and Julia Sharp-Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following this show, may James Tallarico, also known as Baby Jesus, bless you.

1:01:50Kara Swisher:If not, you've got the Antichrist spirit. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On With Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On With Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.