Marc Maron on Podcast Grifters, Fascism & His Legacy

21:10And given that it was loaded, that was me trying to get to know this daughter whose life I wasn't present in. That was loaded. So it started to happen very quickly. And that the exercise of me sort of admiring her and then also realizing in that moment that she is my daughter and that I'm having this whatever emotions that I never engaged with because I wasn't in her life. Yeah, it was overwhelming. So in the first time we did it, we were crying. I would imagine that given the number of takes we did with some of these things, it's hard to know which ones they use. But, you know, you don't want to cry and then, you know, have to do it too many more times because, you know, then you're forcing it.

21:52Kara Swisher:How many times did you do that scene? We didn't have a lot of time. I think we shot that movie in like 20 days. So we had to get it in one or two, maybe three takes. so you grieve the death of your partner lynn shelton very publicly and you helped shape her legacy through your reflections now you're starring in a film that deals with legacy and what an artist leaves behind i just curious talk about how the experiences have affected thinking of your own legacy or what that will look like did you think about it doing this no I didn't I don't Would you like to try now? I'm gonna try Okay You know I don't Don't think feel I am feeling I am feeling You know like I think about Lynn Shelton I think about You know in this world of you know No context and everything all the time And no real sense of history or what anything means in relation to it, what does a legacy really mean?

23:01I don't know. So, yeah, I mean, I've done a lot of stuff. And also the mindset around the difference between content and art and churning out content. And then everything we once knew was something amazing is just broken down into clips. Everything just churns away on our phone. None of us really think anymore. We just react to our phone. So what is legacy? What does it mean to me? I don't know. My girlfriend died. And what happens is when anyone dies is a handful of people are like, well, what are we going to do with all this shit? So that's just the reality of it. People say to me, you should archive your letters and your notes and get them put at a university.

23:52I'm like, for what? But so I don't know why this anger comes out sometimes.

23:58Kara Swisher:That's all right. But even when I think of the podcast, 1 ,700 episodes of fairly rare and singular interviews with a lot of people. Absolutely. And a lot of them are very deep, and a lot of them are very revealing. They were moving for me. They exist in the world. And I hope that people can go back to those. I was just walking down the street today, and some woman walks out of a doorway, and she goes, oh, my God. I was just listening to you and Nick Kroll this morning. Now, what's interesting about that is either of those Nick Kroll episodes are at least, you know, one's a decade old or 15 years, and the other is at least a year or two.

24:34And I'm like, all right, well, that means something. You know, if any of these conversations I've had or if any of my comedy bits can still provide a service for people in terms of doing for people what they did for me when I was a kid, making sense of the world, looking at something in a different way, elevating something, making someone feel less alone, making someone laugh at something that was, you know, stuck in their heart, then great. That's a great legacy to have. And I hope that happens.

25:03Kara Swisher:Well, that is legacy. Right.

25:08Kara Swisher:Final question about this movie. How do you expect it's going to be received? I'm just curious. Do you think about that at all? Where does it belong? I try not to think about that. In movie land. Where does it belong in movie land? Yeah, I don't you know, it's like I don't The great thing about this movie is You know, I'm just an actor and you know, let rob Worry about that shit like he texted me the other day. He's like this is gonna be a wild ride It's gonna be a lot of ups and downs. I just don't want you to feel, you know freaked out about it I'm, like, i'm not stressing at all You're the director you take it, you know, I mean, i'm really not You just hope with this thing, as he does, in terms of where anything fits in or how something is sold anymore.

25:53We live in a world where genius actors and brilliant writers and great directors do amazing things that no one sees. That is the world we're living in. Why? Because everything is broken open. Everything is like it's just the Wild West out there. There are no gatekeepers. And the ones that do exist are greedy and basing everything on an algorithm of people that could be fucking morons.

26:20Kara Swisher:Yeah. Now you're speaking my language, but go ahead. Yeah, no, I mean, I get it. So I think the hope is that the movie lands somewhere where it is seen by as many people as possible. How one markets it or how nothing. I think, you know, if you go on Netflix, you know, I've had specials on Netflix. You know, it's on the front page for a day. And then this thing you worked three years on, people are like, you know, I don't know. I saw it yesterday. Now it's gone. Yeah. And then Charlie Theron is. Who the hell knows what's in prey or something? Yeah. I don't understand it. But I do know that I probably watch the menu of Netflix more than I watch things on Netflix.

27:00Yeah. That's fair.

27:02Kara Swisher:It's a very good menu. It's really interesting. It's just like you're getting a lot done. It's the same thing as scrolling reels. You're like, I don't know about that movie. You watch a trailer. And why can't you turn the trailers off? I don't know. That is the only thing. For a reason. I know it's for a reason, but it's annoying because the Apple remotes are too small. Okay. All right. All right. Okay. So. Okay. Do you think you'll make the in memoriam at the Oscars when you die? No. Okay. Why not? Sure you will. I've done two movies. I know. I can't even. Still, they bring in other people now.

27:35Kara Swisher:Huh? They bring in other people now. There's others. I don't know how they choose that. I definitely won't make it. No? No. That probably wouldn't even make it. Well, it depends on who dies that year, probably. Well, that's in the movie. Yeah. It's always going to be more than me. Like, there's going to be a gaffer that's done 90 movies. Yeah. Yeah. He's going to be in it. Maybe. They're going to be like, Mark Maron did four movies. Well, Joe's the real deal. Yeah. I don't know. It's charities. Look, I don't win prizes. and I don't, like, I, it's, because it's another validation, but it's not true, you know.

28:10It's actually not true anymore. You know, because I think, I don't know what people want, but I know that I'm not always giving it to them.

28:20Kara Swisher:Withholding. Yeah. Withholding. And I know that. Yeah. It's not withholding. It's aggressive. It's the opposite. Okay. Like, because, like, in my specials, but I will, you know, toot my own horn here, I did. my special this one that's up now panicked won the the wga award to run the writers guild award and it was up against snl 50 the conan at the mark twain center right and uh jordan klepper daily show like massive staffs of writers you have 15 guys on each on each staff and then just me you know mark maron panicked so i was like there's no way i'm gonna win that thing and i did and it And it felt good because like that one, I think has some, there's honor in that.

29:03The writer's award. The single. Well, no.

29:05Kara Swisher:Oh, the writer's, the award itself. The award itself feels real. So if you got like a Golden Globe, you're like, fuck that. It's not like a, yeah, Golden Globe that someone paid for. Paid for, fuck that. Yeah, right. Or like, you know, SAG Awards are fine. But like, I know actors and there's so many shows. Like, you know, what happens is you're going through. Still back on that Netflix menu you are. Okay. Well, no, you're going through the nominees and there's like 50 in each category. And you only saw one of the things. So what you're voting is like, oh, I know her. And that's it. You didn't even see what they did, but you know them.

29:38Kara Swisher:That's how we do political voting now. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:45Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

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33:40Kara Swisher:I'm going to shift to WTF and your life since ending the podcast. As you're whining on the show, you talked about the anxiety again. You felt about not having it in your life in part because it helped you meet people. You said, quote, I live for connection. I live for it because I need to know I exist. So eight months, how's it going? I exist most days. Has it been eight months? Yeah. What is going on with time? I don't know. I don't know. How did that happen? Yeah. Did COVID fuck up time? Yes. And then now the phones fuck up time too. It eats your time. Oh my God. Anyway. Yeah. It's up and down with the time.

34:23Kara Swisher:Yeah. Because you have to realize, you know, half of my life I spent as a comic trying to be a comic. Yeah. And you weren't hinged to the idea of being funny. You'd have a discussion. Well, no, but I mean, you just have time. Right. Like, if you're not, like, if you're just being a comic and you're getting by early in your career as a comic on, you know, whatever, a few hundred bucks a week and living on the Lower East Side, running around doing one-nighters and stuff. I mean, outside of the drive to the gig and the half hour or hour you do, you've got another 22 hours that you wander around high with a notebook, you know.

34:57So I've been, I've had time before.

35:00Kara Swisher:Right. Now I'm not high and I have money. So it's a different kind of time. Right. So where's it going? It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, I was surprised, you know, because I thought like after the podcast, like, you know, I got to stay. How am I going to stay relevant? Right. You know, maybe I'll get on Instagram, you know, do the live thing, you know. But then like after like a few weeks, I'm like, I don't want to do any of it. and I don't miss it, the sort of drive to generate. I mean, look, I know a lot of people love the podcast and it was an important part of my life and I did it for 16 years.

35:39But to be honest with you, I really talk to everyone I want to talk to. There's like 1 ,700 people. How many more people? Was there one? Was there one you? Well, some people didn't want to do it. I can't make people do it. People are like, you should get Dylan. I'm like, all right, call him. What do you want from me? Right. So, and I don't even think he'd be that great in an interview. That's hit or miss with that guy. Yeah, yeah. So, but no, literally what started to happen was, you know, I would get opportunities to talk to people and then I'd have to decide, like, you know, do I care about their work?

36:21Do I know their work? If I don't know their work, but I am interested, can I get into their work? You know, which is just part of the gig. but then it gets to a point where it's like do you want that job right like if something that you love to do or that you know sort of you know serviced a lot of different things in your life

36:36Kara Swisher:becomes a job everything becomes a job no it does you're saying it doesn't I say it doesn't I love what I do oh well okay well good for you but I'm not anxious like you well I'm not that anxious but like I know that feeding the monster like if you know there's one thing I get you're not anxious, but where does ambition play into it? Maybe you just liked it. I mean, one of the things you said it was freeing at one point because you could speak it. Of course. No, I loved it. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there comes a point. My producer and I worked together for years, and it was just the two of us.

37:13We were not part of a network. We were not gunning for money. It was never designed to be for money. When we started the podcast, There was no way to make money. We never made it video because we believed in audio as a format and and the intimacy of audio It was never an idea to really make it video and and I think because of these principles or what we what happened like how it became a Business like i've been in in modern podcasting, you know since day one So I saw the business grow and build and how it all worked out for everybody. So So ultimately, it's a miracle that it gave me everything it gave me, and I love doing it.

37:54But after 16 years, a new show every Monday and Thursday, we were kind of fried. And also, because of the way the business has grown around us, there is nothing special about almost any of it. that the bar has been lowered to such a degree that people prefer parasocial relationships with mildly charismatic, fundamentally, usually untalented people than being engaged by anything provocative or truly interesting that someone made out of their imagination and heart. So, you know, I don't need to be a part of that anymore.

38:27Kara Swisher:Right, right. I see that. I see that. Wow. Did you think of yourself as an interviewer? Or you just were like, I don't like this shit's happening anymore. I don't like how it's evolved. No, I just like I needed to connect with people because I thought when when I started that podcast, you know, I thought I was an outsider. I thought I pissed a lot of people off. And and a lot of it wasn't exactly true. But I mean, the first the way I developed whatever my style of conversation was, you know, I would have people over in my world. They were comics. And I would say, like, are we good? Do you mad at me about that thing?

39:02And nine times out of ten, they'd be like, I don't even remember what you're talking about. And, you know, I'd been carrying it around my whole life. So, but through that, you know, some sort of drive happened in terms of my curiosity. My need to connect was always a big part of it. But also just like, you know, not just connecting, but hearing how people work and hearing how people, you know, exist in those moments. Because I didn't, I never really had questions. you know i would do some research but like the whole thing hinged on those first curiosity right on your curious sure it was curiosity but was also like yeah i had to be interested yeah it's

39:43Kara Swisher:bad if i'm not interested right but just for people to know it was 2009 which is very early and you said it helped quote unleash an exciting type of delivery system for pure self-expression um but also unleashing format that can be used for dubious means propaganda and pure evil Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. This is the monster of podcasting. So how did you feel about it? You ushered it in of all the people I can think of. I don't know. A couple. Among the beginning, the OG people probably. Yeah, I mean, you're on the list. But the thing was is that I think what, look, I'm not a businessman. I'm not an entrepreneur.

40:21And I'm not a grifter. Okay. So, you know, those weren't on my menu. But I would say that's 94 % of podcasts. So whatever I was doing at the beginning, I didn't invent interviewing. I don't know why some people can live on these mics and connect and why some people can't. But what happened was that because of my success and a few other people, everyone decided that anyone could do it. Right. And they can. Right. But there is a graveyard of four episodes of someone's dream podcast. Thousands of them. Thousands. Since 2008, there's got to be like a million, you know, three to four episodes of someone who entered it going like, this is going to be great.

41:12And by week four, they're like, nine people listened. So.

41:17Kara Swisher:Do you feel responsible for that graveyard? Sure. But like, I'm just, a lot of them didn't go away. Yeah. Yeah, they didn't now last month for example the businesses evolved as you said you said drifters entrepreneurs and what was the third one? Drifters entrepreneurs and uh businessmen businessmen. Okay propagandists. There's a lot there's a lot of things going on Last month spotify and netflix acquired the video rights to distribute jay shetty's on purpose podcast in a deal Reportedly worth jay shetty I don't know who that is. Maybe i'm out of the loop. Well, he got a hundred million dollars it's part of Netflix broader push in a podcast an effort to compete with YouTube do you think about that and staying do you think about the cashing in?

42:03when I saw podcasts on the menu of Netflix I'm like it's fucking over no one gives a shit about anything explain yourself with the bar has been lowered to such a degree that people will sit at home and watch people on Zoom with half their fucking face covered up like it's Shure SM7 it's like What is wrong with fucking people? Like, do they not have any friends? Are they not curious about anything? Do they not use their brain anymore? They can't think. They got to have three idiots who are talking about the last time they shit themselves as adults. You know, entertain them. I mean, it's like a fucking world of drive time radio.

42:43It's the worst.

42:44Kara Swisher:Right. So why do you think it's popular? Huh? Why do you think it's popular? Because people are lazy and they'll adapt to anything. and they're fucking lonely and they want to have parasocial relationships with people they feel that they're like, which means usually fucking amateurs. Right, right. Okay. All right, then. I think that's it. Well, a lot of them. I don't know. Keep going. I don't know what's going on with me. Okay. I like it. I like it. I like it a lot, actually. Actually, a lot of people you're referring to in your. This is because I don't have the podcast anymore. Yeah. You have to.

43:18They're like the angers right there again. I don't know what the hell I'm going to do about that I get on stage I think it's better for the stage because I was worried after the podcast people aren't going to know my dates but I think people miss me because the tickets are selling great I just use Instagram to promote stuff or put clips up but I think not doing the podcast has made some people sort of like well I got to see what the cats are up to

43:43Kara Swisher:it's how can they miss you if you won't go away we'll be back in a minute

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45:29Kara Swisher:So people can see your thing, feel your thing, love your thing. The next thing you know, it's a thing. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing.

45:42Kara Swisher:one of the groups you in your latest hbo special panic you criticize with the manosphere podcasts are full of this and one notable line was if hitler were alive today he'd probably appear on theo von's podcast he'd probably have a podcast anyway that's true talk about the this what's happening here with these guys well look you know like i had to really deliberate or delegate or what's the word i want I had to think about that bit, you know, because I know these guys. I've known them my whole life. I knew them before there was a manosphere. I knew them as comics. You know, I knew Rogan when he started in Boston.

46:15I've known these guys. We are somewhat of a weird tribe and a community. So, like, it gets to a point where, look, my politics are what they are. You know, I'm team left. You know, I'm not going to make all the games. Right. But I'm team left. you know going downtown to fight the not today I think but but uh you know good you know fine good luck with it and I'll look I'll walk keep following you on the reels you know so but but I've always been that way yeah you know that's always been my my politics and you know I I believe in you know liberal democracy I believe in it so so but like with the Theo Vaughn thing I I that's a joke and it's a good joke to do Theo interviewing Hitler is hilarious.

47:05And I eventually got to a place with that joke where I'm like, how could Theo get mad at me for this? It's funny. But they're sensitive, those fellas.

47:16Kara Swisher:Did they get mad at you? Well, Joe said he got mad at me. I don't know. Yeah, you got mad at me. They get hurt. They're very delicate flowers. They are a little bit. Yeah, made of paper machine. I don't know why that is. Billionaires are like that. I get so many calls like, you're so mean to me. And I go, go buy a France. Go fuck yourself. You know? But like my issue was, and I think that many of them, look, I don't want to be diplomatic about this. Please don't. And I've talked about this a lot. Yeah, you've talked about anti-woke. I talked about it in the special. And I talked about it when I was promoting the special.

47:53My problem with those guys is that they were sucking up to fascists and they were promoting the end of liberal democracy and the beginning of authoritarianism. And to me, that was plain and clear to see. So my issue with them was because of that. It was political and it was like they were bootlickers and they were pawns. But I also think they were suckers. And I also think that some of them are grifters. Is that some of these guys, it's like they're going to go to where the money is. and the audiences they built, you know, like, like even be, even before I made these comments, like, you know, would I ever go on Joe's show?

48:29Cause he's sort of a, you know, a star maker or, or Tony show. It's like, no, I wouldn't because what am I going to do with that audience? Right. Right. Do you know, I've got my audience are delicate, you know, angry, creative, middle-aged people, but they're my people, you know? So, and there's enough of them, You know, and I think we need to speak up. And in that special, I was, you know, I took, I balanced that special. It's a delicate thing to sort of take the hits at the lefties in a way that they could handle it. So, and I did that. But really, my, and it does seem that the tide is turning, you know, like, you know, Dylan and Schultz and Rogan have become critical.

49:11They're seeing what's happening.

49:12Kara Swisher:Right. But you know what that means, though? It's over. Exactly. And they need to get back. Well, right. Maybe they don't know where it's dragging them. But I think really that a lot of these guys and people in general, they don't have a worldview. They're reacting. I don't think they think it through. A couple guys got mad at me for the Riyadh joke. And these are jokes I'm doing. Everything on that special was a joke. And all the stuff that I was doing promoting the special, taking them to task a bit, it was done in the spirit of comedy. But these are jokes. Right. But they have some teeth to them, and they're not their teeth, right?

49:54I just got to the point where it's like lefties or comics that are progressive, it's difficult to talk about politics. And it's difficult to talk about left-leaning politics without seeming strident and annoying. and so those two things are not great for funny

50:13Kara Swisher:but you've been outspoken against the so-called anti-woke angle in comedy as pure hack and it is it's become hack it's like a boob joke to me boob jokes are funnier but you know what I mean it's like the easiest joke to do look, a good dick joke is always great listen, hello, I'm with Scott Galloway all the fucking time so I'm aware of the situation So but the thing that bothered me about that is like they were whether they knew it or not in the beginning of anti-wokeness that that was always like the Republican – what the Republicans and the right have always wanted for the last three or four decades was to dismantle liberal democracy.

51:02I mean some of them are still pissed off about the New Deal.

51:04Kara Swisher:so you know and women's vote that's right all of that stuff and yeah and this has been brewing for so long that you know when comics get duped into this idea that because they can't say tranny or or worse words that somehow or another that the left is infringing upon their their freedom of speech it's so shallow and stupid and and because they fought for it they just became part of the party line of dismantling liberal democracy. Which they didn't even know. It was never a freedom of speech issue. It was never a constitutional issue. You can say whatever you want, and you're just going to have to shoulder the burden of the consequences.

51:45But ultimately what happened, because they were used as cudgels to dismantle the entire infrastructure of DEI and everything else, right? So now, like, they don't have to shoulder anything because now they can say those words with impunity and the left have no traction to counter it because we're living in two separate worlds. But I hold them responsible for being the front line of—

52:13Kara Swisher:Being the dupe and the cudgel. Yes. The stupid hammer. That's right. Right. Yeah, I think that's true. And so for me, it was always a big picture thing. Right. And now, like, some of them, I don't know if they know that, but they know they, you know, that it's. I think they're understanding they're suckers at this point. I think they're getting, the penny is dropping. I think so. Yeah. You know, and it's just like, you know, what do you, you know, it's weird. Like, I've been working on this bit, you know, on stage, just about how, like, that there's going to be people now, MAGA people that are going to be like, oh, man, I think I screwed up.

52:51and you're probably going to come in contact with them and I think the instinct of a progressive or a left leaning person is to be like yeah you fucking idiot you broke the world you dumb shit what the fuck is wrong with you stupid but I think really the play is to not say anything and I'm talking about without the face none of this none of that Just, you know, just don't say anything and let them sit with it.

53:23Kara Swisher:Do that face again, please.

53:27Just let them sit with it and go, look, you know, we always loved you, Dad.

53:36Kara Swisher:Yeah, good idea. All right. Every episode, we only have a little bit. We're going to run over a little bit. Every episode, we get a question from... Run over. You can go as long as you want. Okay, great. Fantastic. Okay.

53:49Kara Swisher:Every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Here is yours. Hi, I'm Tig Notaro, comedian, podcaster, actor, mother, wife, friend, and certified gay person. My big question for Marc Maron is, where do you get your gumption? I've told you many times the deep appreciation I have for your continued, strong, steady, outspoken, bold views that really should not be bold views. But they are views that do not line up with the majority of your peers that you came up with. I feel like you're truly fighting the good fight, and I do not take your voice for granted. You're so important to so many.

54:36where do you get your gumption? I really want to know way back when and where it comes from. Thank you, sir. Oh, I love Tig. You know, there's a period there. I've known her for a long time. Many years, like before she was Tig, kind of. Yeah. There was a period there where we were dressing almost identically.

54:57Kara Swisher:Yeah. I can see it. Yeah. You've got a lesbian vibe. Sure do. Yeah, I do. I do. I know. I know. Even the facial hair. Yeah, I'm a little bit. You're her suit. You'd be a her suit lesbian. Yeah, it was just very funny because we'd go to festivals or we'd work together and we'd look at each other and like, what is happening? Where do I get my gumption? I'm a guy that's like... It's a great word. Well, I think I like to poke. And I think that's part of my comedy and also part of the way that I interact with people. It's the opposite of withholding. It's the poking to see if you can get a rise out of people.

55:43And I think I've always sort of done that to see if maybe I'd get yelled at or maybe I wouldn't. I don't know what that exactly is about. But I'm also somebody who I've said all the things you can say on stage. in my career, in my life. I've made, I wouldn't call them mistakes, but in different times, I've done dubious jokes. I'm not saying I said the N-word. I'm not saying I hurt people. But I know I've learned from experience and from people talking to me about what is hurtful, what is wrong. Maybe you should think about this a different way. I used to do a joke many, many years ago about uh about transgender the idea of it but you know and i it was something to do with like becoming a mythological you know uh entity and and and to me i thought it was a celebration but someone said to me no it's it's it's not correct you know i used to do i used to try to you know frame the r word in a way i always knew it was kind of bad but the but there was a like in my mind you know maybe if we explored it but then someone said to me like you know if you have someone in your family or your son or your daughter and they're challenged like that, it's incredibly helpful.

56:55So I've made a lot of mistakes personally in all different ways. And I've learned from those things. And that makes, for me, the passion about my point of view deeper. I'm not just reacting. It's not coming from, you know, I'm not posturing. You know, I feel these things. and it's not just a fight. So the gumption is really, and really what it comes down to is this anger that's popped up a couple of times tonight. Like that happened on the Howie Mandel show because he was, like it's harder when you're with somebody. Like if you're sitting with somebody that you disagree with, like if I see Theo, like when I'm gonna, it's amazing that I haven't.

57:40What happens then? If I see Joe or if I see Tony, all of these guys who have - Will there be a fist fight? No, no, no. There won't be a fist fight. But I think what eventually, what will happen is, not unlike, I guess everyone talks about this time when we could put our politics aside and still be people with each other. I assume that is probably what will happen. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, I assume that, you know, if I see Theo or Tony or the guys that have spoken who have responded to me.

58:19Kara Swisher:Yeah, they have. Which is fine. You know, it's a lot. I don't love that. That's the other thing about wanting approval or validation is that, you know, when you're going to speak up, you've got to realize, well, you're not going to get it from everybody. You know, and you've got to live with that. Yeah. Yeah. Even if they're your peers. So what does that encounter look like? well, I imagine it would be like, what's up, you know, and they're like, hey. So what are we, are we, are we good or what are we doing? Yeah, I'm all right. All right. Okay, well, good to see you. Hope you're well. Yeah. Yeah.

58:58And then, you know, maybe it'd be like, they'd be like, oh, you're so right.

59:05Kara Swisher:I don't think so. I don't think so. It would be nice. That was the case. You know, it's interesting. But as you say, you don't like it. I mean, unfortunately, the people who insult me, one of them is about to become a trillionaire, so I'm totally fucked, who said I had a heart. Why, is he just going to crush you with his money? Yes, he will throw money on top of me. I'll say, please, keep throwing it. It'll be one of those. But it's rigged because he's going to kill you with the money. Yes, but he can try. He can try. I don't think he'll be successful. Speaking of Elon Musk, last year, Elon Musk went on.

59:37Oh, that guy?

59:38Kara Swisher:That guy, trust me, went on Rogan and said, quote, the fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy. Conservative writer Helen Andrews says that demographic feminization that values empathy over rationality has led to wokeness. Essentially, women are empathetic and that leads to bad politics. I want you to kind of make the case for empathy because I think you are very empathetic. At the same time, as you've noted, how do you counter that if you're on the left or progressive? um are you doomed to nuance and verbosity or what is the way to counter that idea i don't you know like i had to become better at empathy you know i had to become a better listener i think that certain things helped me with with that one i have to give a lot of credit to recovery for the process of of listening and uh you know hearing somebody's story and what they've gone through So, but I do think that this stuff, the battle against empathy and the battle against self-awareness, which is the other one.

1:00:39Kara Swisher:Lack of expertise as a plus. Yes. I mean, these are just, you know, tenets of fascism and making it work. So, how do you fight that? I mean, obviously, you know, I used to do this line, like, what they're basically saying is empathy is for suckers. Yeah. and how you calibrate your empathy and how you use it and how you don't get drained by your own empathy or whether your empathy is real or you're really just in some sort of victim mode that is only feeling exhausted by the moral injustice of every day in this country right now. I think you have to protect yourself on some level to maintain a righteous anger and figure out really how you can use it and how you can best be of service to other people.

1:01:35But I think a lot of it, and I'm guilty of this, is how much are you really getting out and doing anything? Right. I mean, you may feel a certain way and you may believe something is wrong and you may post a post or send a check. It's hashtag-a-vism, I think it's called. Yeah, whatever that is. But are you present to really be of service and really help? And then when you get into that zone, if you are a sensitive person or a person who is full of empathy or broken in a certain way, then you can start beating yourself up for, you know, not being more involved, not doing enough.

1:02:12Kara Swisher:And then, you know, you don't think you're doing stuff. That's really you are. I mean, obviously, it's transformed lives through your podcast. I don't think you read. Yeah. No, I don't. I'm not saying this about me. You know, I feel like I'm always surprised that making a difference on an individual level, if somebody says to me, you know, I was depressed or many people, you know, I've helped get sober or the way I've processed stuff or speaking out, you know, like Tig says, it does do something. You know, I think you can do things without putting yourself in harm's way. How does this era end when you think about it?

1:02:50Kara Swisher:Because, you know, I've had to deal with all the tech oligarchs who have just seemed to have sucked up every bit of oxygen and all the juicy bits in our society. How does this end from your perspective? What, the world? No, no. Probably in a blast. But how do you think about this time ending where this doesn't seem where we, I mean, I think it's on the march because Elon, for example, is a good example of this, has turned into a villain when he wasn't. necessarily, but has become that. At the same time, he's also about to become the world's richest person ever in history. How does it end? Trump is sort of rotting away in front of our eyes.

1:03:31I don't know how it ends, because I don't know if the agenda was to kill the spirit of the 60s, and kill the progress that was made on a human level in in a relatively democratic format. And the power of technology and the access that everyone has to your brain, to your life, and then the people in power, you know more about that stuff than I do. But I think, I don't know how it ends, but we've got to stop volunteering for the brain fucking.

1:04:10Kara Swisher:Yeah. And it's not a good fuck. It's not a good fuck. No, no. It's just okay. Yeah. But, you know, if you really think about, like, you know, today, because I think about it all the time. It's all relative to the monster that you spend your day looking at, your phone. It's all relative to that. I mean, that's everyone's point of access. Right. And if you just go on the subway and you, it's like, it's insane that nobody is looking at anybody. So I think, sadly, the way it ends is everyone just disappears into whatever the other side of that is. With chatbots and avatars and everything. That said, when I, something I do a lot, I think you should do it, I think it'd be excellent, is when I'm walking down the street and someone's staring at their phone, I go very close behind them and I go, look up.

1:05:10Kara Swisher:and everybody does it. For a second. No, they do it. They're like, oh, I suck. Snap me out of it. Yeah, yes. It was interesting. They go, I suck. And then at some point, someone's going to turn around and shoot me. But I feel so far, I haven't been shot. Yeah, I tried to do a joke about, Denver seems to really land as a joke, though, about how in an authoritarian country, what they really want is for you to keep your mouth shut and keep your head down. and it's so much easier with the phone. Yeah, that's a great joke. It always lands as a sort of like, not a big laugher. Maybe if you include brain fucking in there, it might work.

1:05:50Well, I do a lot of bits about that because I do think I'm sort of, I'm just, I'm working out this stuff, you know, for myself. Because like today, like you just being on the train here culturally is kind of awesome to be on a subway. Yeah. The people you're surrounded with. Amazing. This is a great example of democracy on a social level working. People banging up against each other, yeah. Well, yeah, just people like, you know, you got someone sitting on your lap.

1:06:20Kara Swisher:Yeah, yeah. And you're sort of like, all right, okay. You know, like, and I just, you know, I'm trying, you got it. The phone, it's an addiction because it's a full spectrum dopamine jerk off, right? So, and you can spend, and I know it, and I just share this as an addict in a room full of addicts, you know, that an indicator that you are addicted to something is if you've tried to quit and you've failed. And the number of times you've done that would indicate whether or not your life is unmanageable or you're powerless over a substance. And I've had many times where I've been sitting with my phone scrolling.

1:07:04I don't know why they call it doom scrolling. It's fun. So, like where I've been doing it and I've just said, dude, put the fucking phone down. And some other part of my brain is like, why?

1:07:16Kara Swisher:Well, you know, there's no other industry where they call, there's one other industry where they call users. Yeah. Drugs? Yeah. Yeah. Think about it. Ah. Good one. Thank you. Is that yours? Yeah, it is. I like it. Okay. Borrow it. Take it. Steal it. Whatever you want. What are you doing next? Me? What's your next thing? Hey, you. No, that lady. I thought you were just a general audience question. No, what are you doing? Where's everyone going?

1:07:46Kara Swisher:I'm going to watch the videos on my phone of Trump getting booed. That will be a satisfying time with my phone. Well, I'm working on a new hour of stand-up. It's coming along good. You know, we're probably going to be moving towards a special in that area. I just shot the second season of Stick. with Owen Wilson. That should be coming out in November. And I'm trying to put together a movie to direct based on my friend Sam Lipsight's novel, No One Left to Come Looking For You. Well, fantastic. I'm looking forward. I wish you were still in podcasting. You really were fantastic at it. Well, I appreciate that.

1:08:25And I wish that everyone would stop.

1:08:28Kara Swisher:I know. And yet, and yet, you were really good at it. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you, Mark Merritt. Thank you.

1:09:06Kara Swisher:be immortalized in the Oscars montage. If not, maybe they can squeeze you into the daytime Emmys. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On With Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On With Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

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