Rachel Maddow on Japanese Incarceration During WWII, Mass Deportation & Media Chaos

21:55But boy, did he fail on this. He essentially just checked out. His wife, Eleanor Roosevelt, was very much against this happening. She had sort of confederates in the White House on her side trying to maneuver her husband away from this or at least to speak up for Japanese Americans to protect them from sort of vigilante violence, you know, just to do something. And he just checked out. He just said, you know, he said, whatever it's going to be, if it's military necessity, you have carte blanche. The only thing he said was, and I quote, be as reasonable as you can. That's what he told the authorities when he gave them the authority to do this.

22:35Kara Swisher:But when Eleanor confronted FDR about it, he told her never to bring it up again. That's right. Yeah, he absolutely failed on that. It was a moral failing on this. And it was sort of an abdication of responsibility on this. This is just something he didn't want to think about, didn't want to deal with. And therefore, one of the worst civil liberties and humanitarian catastrophes in our history is stains his legacy forever. So every episode we get an expert to ask, send us a question. Yours comes from Caitlin Dickerson, a staff writer for The Atlantic who covers immigration. Let's hear it. Hi, Rachel.

23:09Kara Swisher:Thanks for the podcast. I'm really enjoying it. And I want to say a shout out to Aiko Herzig-Yoshinaga. I don't know where her story ends, but I, too, have toiled in the National Archives for very long stretches of time. And I know what it's like to dig through that surprisingly disorganized set of documents and also to come upon finally the thing that you were looking for or even better, as in her case, something you didn't know was there, but that turns out to be even more important than what you had in mind. So it was really hard for me to come up with just one question for you, but I have.

23:43Kara Swisher:We're in another moment now of very controversial policies that are targeting immigrants and in some cases their descendants. Some of those policies rooted in race-based stereotypes and fear-mongering. And I'm getting a lot of questions from people about what to do, how to feel, and what to do. And so I'm wondering, listening to your show, and maybe you'll get to it, how did the general public respond to the internment of Japanese Americans as it was happening? We were in the middle of a war, so the context was quite different. But did people generally have a strong reaction to that policy if they weren't personally impacted by it?

24:28Kara Swisher:Or did they sort of continue with daily life? What did they do and what lessons are there for us now in that response? Thanks. First of all, good on you for getting Caitlin Dickerson. Isn't she fantastic? I think she's amazing. I like to do special things for you, Rachel. Thank you very much. No problem. Great question. And this is a sort of a part of this story that I think really haunts my thinking about it now, because there was no mass protest by non-Japanese Americans against what happened to Japanese Americans. When people were being taken out of their homes and put in assembly centers and forced to report given a number, forced onto trains or buses, taken to what were prison camps.

25:17FDR called them concentration camps. Americans in their neighborhoods who were not Japanese stood by and watched it happen. Right. Literally watched the buses and the trains take off. And that, I think, is part of the moral legacy here. There is – it's sort of the whole back half of the podcast deals with this in detail. But the few people that did stand up outside the Japanese-American community I think had to be singular kind of people. Like it's interesting some of the white lawyers who were involved in these cases were real eccentrics or people who were not part of the establishment at all.

26:00I think that's important. You need people who got outside of groupthink. So the general public response was muted. One thing that does emerge, though, and this is something that I didn't expect before getting into our interviews and getting into our story, is that even when there weren't protests, the few people who just tried to materially help, who, like, for example, there's a scene in episode three where this group of Quaker women used to come to the fence of one of the camps and throw over fresh fruits and vegetables. One of our interviewees, her mom was pregnant at the time, and a Quaker woman saw that she was pregnant and brought a homemade quilt, brought a blanket, and threw the blanket over the fence to her and said, I hope this will help.

26:43And our interviewee, Satsuki Ina, her mom kept that blanket until literally her deathbed because of what it meant to her to be betrayed by her country, to be betrayed by their white neighbors, to be betrayed by all the people who they thought were their compatriots, but to have this little spark of people trying to help just to mitigate the harm. Those Quaker women at the fence weren't stopping the policy, but they were recognizing the humanity of the people who were being hurt by it, and that itself is a form of moral defiance. And to me, that makes me think about not just faith communities now, but everybody who's doing things just to materially help the people who are being targeted by Trump.

27:22Kara Swisher:Like women taping it or yelling at police or getting in the way or even. Yeah, I mean, stopping, that's trying to stop what the Trump administration and its agents are doing. But also just mutual aid, just trying to help people, getting groceries for families that are in hiding. turning up at the gates. So, you mean seeing the Catholic mobilization in Chicago of trying to bring the Eucharist, trying to do a Catholic rites at the Broadview facility. To the Pope, right? The Pope has been very outspoken about the topic.

27:54Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

28:08Kara Swisher:Hi, everyone. It's Kara Swisher. I'm excited to put something new on your radar from the Vox Media Podcast Network. It's called Project Swagger with the one and only Robin Arzon. And it's all about helping you trust yourself, level up your mindset and actually make the changes you've been thinking about. Robin is Peloton's vice president of fitness programming and head instructor. She's also a 27-time marathon and ultramarathon runner, founder of Swagger Society Media Company, and a two-time New York Times bestselling author. In under 30 minutes, Robin shares the rituals, routines, and mental shifts that fuel her hustle and show you how to apply them in your own life.

28:48Kara Swisher:In the very first episode, she opens up about the moment that forced her to transform her inner voice and the strategies that helped her become what she calls a self-talk ninja. You can find Project Swagger with Robin Arzon on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Tuesday.

29:27on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.

29:34Kara Swisher:One of the most striking things about listening to burn order is how tens of thousands of American citizens had their constitutional rights stripped away from them instantly. Now, more than 80 years later, the Supreme Court has basically legalized racial profiling by immigration agents, so-called Kavanaugh stops. Particularly, American citizens are being detained, American citizens, by ICE agents. ProPublic has documented over 170 cases of Americans being detained by immigration agents, more than 20 cases. They were jailed for over 24 hours and weren't allowed to call a family member or lawyer.

30:02Kara Swisher:So talk about these exceptions to constitutional protections becoming the norm, because we sit there and go, I can't believe they did this, but they're doing it. Yeah. I think you also have to just look at how they're doing it. I mean, citing the Alien Enemies Act, right? Why were they trying to use the Alien Enemies Act against people from Venezuela, not because of anything that was, there was no war with Venezuela then, and there's still none now, but they wanted to use the powers that the Alien Enemies Act gave them to essentially operate outside the bounds of the Constitution. Like, oh, right, okay.

30:39Denaturalization, right? They're talking about getting rid of people who are naturalized citizens or people who are not born in this country who got their citizenship after birth. They want to denaturalize and take away citizenship from those kinds of Americans. They talked about doing the same thing to Japanese Americans. Now they're talking about trying to get rid of birthright citizenship.

30:58Kara Swisher:Right. Well, I was just going to note the Supreme Court has taken up the case challenging birthright citizenship that in and of itself can be seen as a victory for Trump, that they're even taking it up. And the court could uphold birthright citizenship, but still chip away at it. They love to chip away and open the door. It's reinterpretation by Congress. That leads to a larger question, who is going to ultimately get to decide who belongs in America, Right. I think that's what your your podcast is about, too. Will it be ICE, Trump, Congress, Supreme Court? Was it FDR? Was it like it's the same?

31:25Kara Swisher:It feels so resonant to what's happening now, which is why didn't we learn from them? And what were the excuses they use then that are similar to today? Yeah, it's about this idea. The authoritarian project is, right, I want to be able to exclude and abuse, incarcerate, potentially kill. I want to have zero accountability for my actions toward certain people who I want not to be American. right and once you're once you're down that road it's just a question of how far you're going to go but once that's the framing with which you are approaching this we're going to say that you know you're alien enemies you're not just immigrants you're enemies to us right we're so therefore essentially we can treat you um as if you are a combatant we are going to take away your citizenship we are going to say even though you were born here you're not the right kind of american i mean trump is talking about stripping citizenship from people who he deems to be incompatible with Western civilization.

32:22That would be you and I, but go ahead. Yes, that would be anybody who he chooses to apply that to. Like, don't think, oh, I don't look like that kind of person. That'll be in his eyes. And so once you're in that kind of a project, the only question is how far you can go before you're stopped. And with Japanese-American incarceration, where we ended up, in part because of people like Aiko Herzogoshinaga and what she did, and because of the Japanese Americans who challenged it and because of people who stuck with it decades later to try to make sure that that legal foundation didn't survive to a new generation of leaders who would try to do this for some reason, is that we ended up overturning the convictions in the Japanese American incarceration test cases.

33:08Those convictions were overturned. The Supreme Court finally acknowledged that Korematsu was wrongly decided. But more than that, the U.S. government formally apologized for it and paid restitution, paid reparations payments to the survivors, while presidents as, you know, radical and liberal and socialist as Ronald Reagan said, this was a wrong and we will never do it again as a country. We supposedly learned this lesson and committed that we'd never do anything like it again. And we should relearn those lessons and remind ourselves that we got there.

33:40Kara Swisher:Is it the same tactics? I mean, talk about the echoes between them. Because let me just say, a few days ago, Amnesty International released a report alleging human rights violations and torture at so-called Alligator Alcatraz Detention Facility in Florida and the Crone Detention Center at the ICE Detention Facility that's also in Florida. The report is shocking, but to give you a small glimpse of what's in it, Alligator Alcatraz detainees have described as being put into a small cage-like structure for hours. It's approximately two by two feet. Their hands and feet are restrained while they're in it.

34:09Kara Swisher:So let's take Caitlin's question is how is the Democratic Party and general public reacting to these deliberately cruel and degrading treatment of enemies, which happened before? Like this never again thing is, oh, maybe again. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think that the elite and institutional response is woefully inadequate. I think that there is something going on sort of in the heart of the American people that people are responding. I mean, there have been a lot of protests at Chrome. There have been protests at the Everglades facility, the so-called Alligator Alcatraz. I imagine that this amnesty report about putting people in this two-foot-tall cage outside in the swamp will touch some more people's hearts and people will respond the way that I think Americans have been responding to these sort of outrages.

35:02but expecting the democratic party to lead on this is something that i've given up on i expect the american people to lead on it and then democrats on it which didn't happen then right democrats to follow the crowd right no no there wasn't there really wasn't i mean the the roosevelt administration sort of soured on um mass incarceration of japanese americans a couple years into it by the time the test cases were getting to the supreme court um you know in in 43 and 44, within the administration, they were realizing like, oh, we got to unwind this somehow. But once you've worked people up into a racist frenzy for needing to do something, it's kind of hard to unwind that.

35:38And so they had to be stopped. Mitsuya Endo's case is actually the one of the four Japanese test, Japanese American test cases that succeeded and coincided with the closing of the camps. But yeah, I mean, And we're in a position right now where ultimately the people who did this will either be held accountable or, like Carl Bendetson and the other sort of bad guys in this story, they will spend the rest of their days denying it was them and pretending they had nothing to do with it.

36:08Kara Swisher:Well, let's change and talk about our foreign policy and the boat strike saga. There's apparently a memo from the DOJ's Office of Legal Council that lays out the rationale for launching military strikes against alleged drug runners. According to reports, it claims that cartels using profits from drugs to attack allies like Mexico and since airstrikes are targeting the drugs, any deaths are justified. This is what the administration has relied on when orders of killing civilians. Are we watching another moment like this when people inside the government and military rely on flimsy legal cover in order to carry out what are essentially illegal orders, right?

36:41Kara Swisher:Right. And which happened here, it seems like. It happened here and also back then. Yeah, the really direct parallel is that the Justice Department was fighting against the incarceration policy, and nobody in the Justice Department would write a legal opinion saying it was legal, because it was clearly illegal. And so they found other government lawyers outside the Justice Department to write a memo saying, okay, it was legal. And those lawyers actually talk about sort of liberal alliance, talk about Earl Warren and FDR and their legacy. The three lawyers who wrote the memo that greenlit this are all like, you know, new dealer, liberal, like real establishment lawyers.

37:22And all of them for the ends of their days spent swinging between apologizing for and denying their responsibility for what they did. Right. And I do think that it's worth, A, we as American citizens and observers of what's going on, we're going to have to answer for what we did and whether or not we did anything to try to stop these sort of terrors and whether or not we made sure they were documented and whether or not we spoke out against them. Whether or not we knew that it was going to be effective to stop them. Did you actually object? It matters if you object. But the people who enabled this stuff, people who are working in the regime right now that is terrorizing people on the basis of race explicitly, they're going to have to answer for it.

38:11And they may have to answer for it just to their own families and to God. But if we do this right, they're going to have to answer in court as well. And they should know that. And they should act accordingly. Right.

38:21Kara Swisher:So when we're talking about these boat strikes in the same way, in recent days, there's a lot of focus on the second strike that really killed two men as they held onto the floating wreckage and whether or not it was a war crime. But as Charlie Savage and Julian Barnes pointed out in the Times, focusing on the details of the second strike might actually play to Trump's advantage because it implicitly accepts the premise that these strikes are part of a war, not simply cold-blooded murder. Is the fervor over the second strike missing the point? Yeah, and I'm glad you pointed out that Charlie Savage piece, because I think he also makes one very clear, very memorable point that I think I hope people take away from that article, which is, you know, imagine an American cop on the beat who sees a drug deal happen, who sees somebody buy, you know, a bag of weed or some Coke or something.

39:08can in seeing that happen can the cop in that instance draw his or her firearm walk up to the person who he or she thinks did the drug deal and just shoot him in the head is that is that how we're dealing with drug problems in our country like if you think there's a meth lab um in in your rural community, can the sheriff in your county roll up and just machine gun the house in which he suspects there might be a meth lab there? And if people run out, shoot them. And if people are surviving laying on the ground, have sheriff's deputies walk up and instead double tap them, shoot them in the forehead twice to make sure they're dead.

39:52I mean, like, is that what we're doing? Because there's nothing that makes it more legal to do that in water than it would be to do that on a street corner in the United States. And there's nothing about the language and the memos that they've generated around what they're doing in the Caribbean that makes it any more legal than that. And that is not, it's just not what we do. And it's not a war. And this isn't, you know, interception of drug boats, you know, like this isn't law enforcement. This isn't war. This is just illegal murder. No, it's a bad Sylvester Stallone movie. That's what it feels like.

40:31Well, yeah, but it's I mean, what they like about it is the movie aspect of it, right? Like what they like is how it looks on TikTok. And Trump likes sitting in the Oval Office and saying, we will kill you. We will kill you. We will kill you. Well, you know, if we started killing everybody suspected of having anything to do with drugs, Because, I mean, lots of people who the president knows are going to have a lot of problems. Correct. It's just, it's not legal and it's not right. And ultimately, they're going to be held accountable for it. I think Trump is pretty sure he's not going to be held accountable for anything.

41:07But people in the U.S. military who are following through with these plainly illegal orders, it will haunt them and their careers and their lives the whole rest of their lives. And it's not fair to put them in this position.

41:18Kara Swisher:So one of the things that's interesting about the podcast and the echoes of today is that these people were haunted most of their lives for what they did, right? One of the things I was thinking, I was talking to someone about it and said, oh, should we kick people when they're dead? I'm like, quite a bit. We should kick them when they're dead. Yes. Let's keep kicking the corpses of Carl and the rest of them. Well, look at how their lives turned out when they had to drag this moral albatross with them, you know? I mean, wait till you get to episode six and you find out the way things worked out for Carl.

41:48Kara Swisher:I love the what happened. Yeah, we've got Carl in a way that you're not going to expect. But when you decided to do this, is this your goal in pointing that out to today's people? It's like, I mean, I keep thinking, Kristi Noem, you're going to jail. It's going to, you're eventually, eventually, Pete Hegseth, you're in big trouble. I don't think Trump will be held accountable, actually. So how do you, what was your goal here when you think about doing burn order? I mean, it's both to make the people who are doing wrong recognize that they should change course now while they still can, because otherwise this is going to, among all the other things that this is and all the other pain that this causes, they're going to ruin their own lives and they're going to cause generational harm to their own families by being part of something that is so obviously wrong that we will dissect this and get to the bottom of this and nobody who is doing wrong on these scores will ever be let off for them.

42:40And so if you're breaking people's windows and dragging women out of daycares and locking up U.S. citizens because you racially profiled them and thought that they looked like immigrants even if they weren't, and you're locking up immigrants and calling them murderers and rapists when they've got no criminal record, and you're doing that by the tens of thousands, and you're putting people in cages and swamps to punish them because you enjoy the torture. I mean, if you're part of any of those things, you are ruining your own life and your family's life for multiple generations to do this and think about it.

43:13You can get out now. But also on the good side of it, like the ways to fight these things are myriad. And some of them are about helping people now. A lot of this is about saying no and objecting and protesting and confronting people with the moral wrong of what they're doing. We also, frankly, need a lot more lawsuits. We need a better legal defense in this country than we're getting. And that was the big, that was Trump's triumph, I think, in going after the craven but powerful rich law firms early on, is that they haven't joined in to help people bring a legal offensive here that might slow this stuff further.

43:47And those, you know, white shoe law firms, the Paul Weiss's of the world and all those other law firms that sign those deals, they need to unwind those deals and start working on the right side of history here or they themselves are going to be paying for it forever. Right.

43:59Kara Swisher:And on this topic, the last thing, the Japanese Americans, the people that survive, what echoes of what happened to them having their constitutional rights? Do you see any parallels to today? What might happen to these people who have been so badly victimized by these mass deportations comparatively? Oh, yeah. I mean, the harm here is real. I mean, you can't lock up more than 100 ,000 people for years. I mean, some of the ways we locked up Japanese Americans, we locked them up in whole families locked up in horse stalls, you know, through the winter and for months at a time living in, you know, with military style group latrines for pregnant women and elderly people and substandard food.

44:42And I mean, taking babies out of orphanages and putting them in prison camp orphanages on the basis of their race. I mean, yeah, the multigenerational harm there is something that I don't have the words for, honestly. I will also say that there's been a lot of Japanese American leadership against what Trump is doing to immigrants now. And that's also that when we get around to Carl at the end of burn order, you're also going to learn a little bit more about that, too.

45:11Kara Swisher:Wow, I can't wait. I hope he gets thrown into the sea. We'll be back in a minute.

45:31Kara Swisher:Before we go, I want to finish up talking, we just have a few more minutes, about the Warner Brothers Discovery Netflix deal, the hostile takeover bid by Paramount. We could spend multiple episodes talking about this. This is where things stand, as we record on Tuesday morning after Warner Brothers Discovery Board chose Netflix bid. Trump said it would be a problem that it would be involved in the decision to approve or reject the merger. He also called Ted Sarandos, the CEO of Netflix, fantastic. David Ellison's Paramount launched a hostile takeover bid, but not for a meeting with Trump and telling him Paramount would make sweeping changes to CNN if they bought Warner.

46:02Kara Swisher:Trump also said, I never met these people, essentially. He did one of those. They're not really friends of mine, which I loved. Like, chef's kiss, Trump. Let's leave aside the movie business and focus on news. Ellison is remaking CBS News in Trump's image, really. Right now, you're in a situation where you're all remaking a news company with you at the center of it, Rachel. You are the queen bee, I guess. I don't know what to do. Monday nights at 9. Come on, Carol. Let's not overstate things. I'm going to overstate it because I can tell what they're doing. Talk about the knock-on effects right now for media in general and this particular deal.

46:37Kara Swisher:and let's imagine for whatever reason you were looking for a new TV home, would you consider working at the David Ellison-owned CNN, for example? By the way, I just publicly stated I will not work a day for them, but go ahead. I just said - Could you imagine? Yeah, let's have the - I'll be over there, over with you people at Versailles in a very short order. Imagine my interview with Barry White. Yeah, that would be really good. That would be a lesbian face-off I don't want to be part of. So talk a little, talk about that. Like what's happening there. Yeah, I mean, let me just let me I think the bottom let's go right to the bottom line here.

47:12Donald Trump right now is minus 24 in his approval rating. Right. And that's and those those polls were done before he started talking about Somali people as garbage and saying that he's going to take away citizenship, citizenship from Americans who he deems to be incompatible with Western civilization. I'm sorry. If you run a multi-billion dollar enterprise and your big strategic decision is like, how can I get right with that guy? I don't respect your acumen. I don't expect your vision. I mean, he's 79 years old. He lives on cheeseburgers. I don't know what's going on with the hand, but it's not good.

47:56I don't know what's going on with the ankles, but it's not good. He's not going to be there for that long. And his legacy is going to be an oil slick on the bottom of the American, like on the bottom of our founding documents. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, did this fall into something? What's this smear here? Like the idea that you are positioning your company and your, you know, family empire for a legacy in which it all comes down to you destroyed something of value, something that contributes to who we are as a country to instead please the guy who will go down as the worst, the worst American in multiple generations.

48:42The worst, certainly the worst president we ever had. The man who tried to destroy this country and got pretty far down the road to doing it. I just, I don't, I don't think you're right. I don't think you're making a good decision. And I do think that the people who, you know, plighted their troth with Trump right after the election because he won the election, now, one year into it, I think are in a moment where maybe it's time to reevaluate some of those decisions that you made. Maybe you were wrong to plight your troth with him. Maybe this isn't something you want to be associated with forever.

49:14Maybe, you know, you should unwind those deals. Maybe you should stop kowtowing to him. maybe you should get right with history because I don't think his legacy is the one that you want to be intertwined with when you have to answer for who you are.

49:28Kara Swisher:So two more very quick questions I have to ask about with MS Now, your ratings are up since the rebrand. They're significantly up year over year. You have the highest rated show on the network. I don't care if you don't think you are the most important, but you are. The cable television is still shrinking. How do you look at how you stay relevant when you think about where you are right now? It's a good start. What's the opportunity for something like MS Now? You know, I was stressed about, you know, decoupling with NBC News because, you know, I've always really integrated, like I use a lot of NBC News archives.

50:02I've always used a lot of NBC reporting and reporters and correspondence, and I've always had a really good relationship with the news side. So sort of us splitting off from them, I was anxious about it. But it turns out the way we've split off has been really good. We've hired all these new reporters, this whole new editorial structure. It means that all of our newsgathering apparatus all works just for us, and we don't have to share with another company that honestly has different priorities and different interests. And so we're better, actually than we were at in in the old structure under NBC Universal and that feels good that feels like a great place from which to grow also we're doing better I think in terms of the way we digitally distribute what we do like our online presence I would put up against any other news entity in terms of how we're doing on YouTube and TikTok and places like that we're strong in the podcast space and getting stronger and doing all different kinds of podcasts.

51:10So I think that actually we're in good shape. Like I'd rather be us than be anybody else in the news business right now. I would agree. Especially with the shame and I think the shame and sort of grubbiness of being part of one of these companies that's trying to please Trump. I mean,

51:28Kara Swisher:shame and grubbiness. That's a good podcast. That's going to follow those people around like a stink. So on the last question, because your staff is losing their minds right now, but 80 years from now, when someone makes a podcast about the Trump era, maybe you, what will it be called? And we know who the villains and victims are. So who are the heroes? Shame and grubbiness, I think, actually, is a pretty.

51:52Oily. We should buy the URL right now. We should buy the IP. Shame and grubbiness with Kara and Rachel.

51:58Kara Swisher:Yeah, that's true. Well, I'll be coming over to Versant soon if the Ellisons get their grubby hands on. Please. I'm coming. I already talked to Rebecca. I already said it publicly. There's not a millisecond I'll work for these people, just so you know. What do you want to do at Versant? How would you do it? Versant? I want to create a croissant business and say, Versant croissants with you, and I want to wear outfits. And we can roll them, you know, lesbian bakery kind of thing. We can also mass market our haircut. Yes, our haircut. There's so much to happen. There's so much. We can create a lesbian action movie.

52:34Kara Swisher:You know, obviously, as you know from cable these days, between Pluribus and The Beast and Me, dyspeptic lesbians are the thing for 2026. So I feel really good about our future. We've got to run with this now, Swisher. I know. I've tried, Rachel. I've tried. You just reject me at all efforts to do so. Yeah, we're going to, I mean, I think that we're in good shape. I think that we should, I think we should, you and I, and you and MSNOW, we should be in cahoots more than we are. Cahoots. It's coming. And I think that everybody who's working to try to make our country not just protect what they're trying to destroy, but who is trying to stand up for the people who they're trying to hurt along the way, gets a starring role in the 80 Years Hence podcast.

53:19Kara Swisher:All right. Then here's to shame and grubby. Okay. Thank you, Rachel. As always, it's a wonderful podcast. Everyone should listen to it. Burn Order. And Ico, thank God for you. That's all I have to say. Thank you, Cara.

53:38Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yoakum, Michelle Alloy, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Corinne Ruff and Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get to be a hero on shame and grubbiness. If not, you get to work for the Ellisons. Better you than me. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

54:16Kara Swisher:We'll be back on Monday with more.