Sen. Tillis Unfiltered: Trump, Iran & What’s Next For the GOP

20:28And whether that's through administrative action, through an act of Congress, this funding needs to get done. I believe so. Now, again, the question is, Is it through an act of Congress that maybe embraces some of the reforms? Or is it through administrative action where they have the authority to move some resources around?

20:45Kara Swisher:Do you have a problem with no masks, for example? I don't have a problem. The problem that I have, if you've been on the border, for example, I've done several border tours in the middle of the night. And I've witnessed encounters with people who are subsequently proven to have been members of cartel. Of course they should have their mask up then. If they're riding through the streets of Minneapolis between meetings, absolutely not. I think there's a happy median. But for the people saying their mask should always be down, really? As somebody who's just dealt with a family doxing event two weeks ago?

21:18Kara Swisher:Yeah. That's the world I've chosen to live in. I don't think that that's fair for law enforcement. So there's got to be a balance. No other law enforcement wears it. It doesn't have to be black and white. None of the rest of us are wearing those masks to hide ourselves. Well, that's right. But you're also not going into a place where the other argument here is everybody is casting everybody that works in ICE as bad people. The vast majority of them are good people. There are mothers and fathers. There are brothers and sisters who go to work every day in a dangerous job. And when they're in dangerous settings with people who contract killers and murder people, then I think that they deserve that extra piece of protection.

21:58Kara Swisher:But not everywhere. But not everywhere. No. This world's so binary. I just get sick of that. I get it. I just feel like if military doesn't wear it, police don't wear it. Judges, judges, you, you. I actually believe that there's something to be said for more judges protection because they've been politicized. Remember when Chuck Schumer said we'll unleash a whirlwind on the Supreme Court? So that became standard that the Article 3 is in play now. But I bet you wouldn't like to be in a court and have a judge with a mask. 100%. We'll be back in a minute. Thank you. Framer is an enterprise-grade, no-code website builder used by teams at companies like Perplexity and Miro to move faster.

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25:51Kara Swisher:Let me go through a couple of things. You recently went viral for a brutal takedown of former DHS Secretary Kristi Noem during the Senate hearing. I didn't know it went viral, but yeah, I do remember the meeting. Yeah, you had a chart. That was great. I love a chart. And you voiced confidence in her replacement, Oklahoma Senator Mark Wayne Mullen. Talk a little bit about what happened there. And also, when it comes to immigration, the administration isn't changing its goal to deport millions of people, a million people in one year. Is it meaningfully different from your perspective under Mullen?

26:19It will be. I believe it will be. Actually, you were asking me about the BOLO. It represents the Lummi tribe. I'll give you a good example of the kind of character that Mark Wayne Mullen possesses. Mark Wayne Mullen is an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation. But when he was even in the House, he decided to vote for Lumbee recognition because he believes he studied it and he believes it was wrong. So he was willing to go up against his own tribe and the politics of it because he believed it was the right thing to do. I believe he's going to carry that same sort of thought process into his new role.

26:58And I also believe he will project that thought process on any advisors from the White House that are at odds with what he believes is the right thing to do. Stephen Miller or anybody else. I think, you know, it seems like there was a fair amount of evidence that the prior Secretary Noem had a lot, that Stephen Miller had a lot of influence. I think that Mark Wayne will listen to all comers, but I don't see Mark Wayne losing many arguments or differences of opinion if those two are at odds with each other on what's best to do for Homeland Security. I also think that Mark Wayne is going to let FEMA be FEMA, get the right leadership in there, set it and forget it.

27:36It is a part of Homeland Security. One of the reasons I got mad at that hearing was an hour before the hearing, after a month of waiting, I was told that they were not going to give me information on the operation in Charlotte. And I'm going, that told me all I needed to know about how poorly the operation was executed in Charlotte. Because if you had 500 encounters and 250 of them were people who had criminal records, dangerous criminal records, I mean, Washington loves embarrassing politicians, right? And particularly some of the people in this administration. If they had that evidence that just made it clearly it was a resounding success, I would have gotten a letter an hour before the hearing saying you're not going to get it.

28:18been touting themselves. That's what made me angry, and that's why I went into the hearing a little bit hotter than I prefer to be, actually.

28:23Kara Swisher:Right, and you don't think he'll be pulled around by Stephen Miller, and do you think Miller has had a deleterious impact on... I think Stephen Miller, I just feel like, I've told the president, I've told other people, I said, look, this guy is a surfer. I mean, he surfed into D.C. with Jeff Sessions and quickly surfs onto some other wave. I mean, does anybody really believe Stephen Miller is going to be the curator at the Trump Museum or the Trump Library when we're down here? He's going to surf onto something else. I don't appreciate what really made my private conflict become public with Miller is when he went on TV and said it is a position of the United States that Greenland will become a part of the U.A.

29:07He doesn't speak for the Article One branch. He doesn't actually speak for the American people. He speaks for one branch that represents the American people. And that's what made me feel like he was skating way outside of his lanes. And that made me angry because I also, you know, the Republican leader of the Senate NATO Observer Group have been since 2018. And I know how those words are perceived in capitals across Europe. And I wanted to make it very clear he didn't speak for me or the vast majority of the members of Congress on this particular issue.

29:37Kara Swisher:Right. I think you're saying he's over his skis. He's bored. He's got it. Yeah. Way over on lots of issues. That's right. Yeah. So go back, be an advisor, but, you know, stop enjoying watching yourself on TV. That's not a part of your job. He does like to be on TV. Very quickly, Kevin Warsh, when will he be appointed? The D.A.J.'s investigation of Jerome Powell and the renovation is still ongoing, although they're losing in court. Well, the hearing, I mean, obviously, if you're a prosecutor, you should have been embarrassed by the ruling of the judge. And now we've subsequently heard even prosecutors stipulate it that they didn't really have much evidence of criminal.

30:12But, you know, I go back, I'm going, guys, this is so weird.

30:15Kara Swisher:I was at Trump today was talking about it. I was at the alleged scene of the crime. Right. And so were seven other members, including the chair. We all said that there was no criminal act, no criminal act occurred. So what more? I mean, you got a prosecutor insisting a crime occurred in spite of the fact that the majority, everybody who's spoken on the issue said no crime was occurred. So I say all that to say until that case is carried through, maybe more evidence comes up that they can convince me beyond two minutes of testimony. I like Kevin. I think he'll be a great chair. And we can have the hearing at any time, but I will withhold my vote, which in committee means that it won't get reported out of committee and there's no path to discharge.

31:00Kara Swisher:Trump seemed to double down today. He said the guy whose interest rates are too high. It seems to be related to interest rates and not to get him pressured. This guy's not to be pressured. It relates to Fed independence, which is exactly why on Sunday night I took the definitive position that I did to make sure on Monday morning when markets opened up, they didn't wake up for the first time since the existence of the Fed, that the Fed serves at the pleasure of the president. It doesn't. What I like about what what Warsh is saying is you're going to still have independence with respect to the dual mandate.

31:33But there are other things that go on in the Fed that I think we do need more transparency when you talk about bank examinations and supervisory functions. So I like what he wants to bring. And now, because some prosecutor with a dream decided to go forth with subpoena and an investigation, I'm in the position, unless it's completed, I got 283 days left and I'm simply not going to vote for.

31:58Kara Swisher:He seems to run out of fucks, I think, as they say. Yeah, yeah. He seems to. So just very briefly, you're not voting for Casey Means, the next Surgeon General. Well, I've said I'm a lean no if she gets reported out of committee. Yeah, yeah. I'd have to have members that vote. Most of the time, Kara, I've said on NOMS, I'm going to defer if you get an unanimous vote out of committee. You voted for Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Right. If you get one, and I talked to members who were probably on the fence. I said, look, if you on some of these nominees vote no, I'll be there to back you up, but I'm not going to be the lone person in these cases where I'm deferring to members on the committee of jurisdiction.

32:39And now in this case, the nom hasn't moved forward. So that suggests to me there may be some concerns on the committee.

32:46Kara Swisher:You said the resume puts you on alert. Yeah. She did not impress in the hearing. And the resume did not, you know, did not look like the kinds of resumes we've seen before in terms of surgeon generals from either side of the aisle. So you think, Don, where is it going to go? You know, I think if we're, what are we, three weeks past the nomination hearing and we're about to go on recess, generally speaking, anytime a major nom like this is in committee for more than a month or six weeks, it probably means ultimately they get withdrawn. But we'll see. We'll see. So let's move on very quickly, I think, because I know we have limited time.

33:23Kara Swisher:Right now, you're one of the few Republicans willing to challenge the administration, getting a lot of praise for that. Your critics call you too late, Tom. Do you know that? I couldn't care less about my critics. I know that. I know. For number one, you know what? The problem about either the liberals, most of the time, that's the liberals that just want to, you know, attack any conservative, even a right-of-center conservative like me. Yeah, because conservatives never do that these days. But there's an equal amount of dumbness at either end of the political spectrum. That is true. I'll stipulate that.

33:52Okay. But the reality is, too late, Tom. My God, six months into my freshman term as a brand new state legislator, I broke with the Republican Conference to negotiate the first ever renewable portfolio standard in the Southeast. These folks should stop. They're either lazy or they're dumb or they're both. They ought to look at my record.

34:19Kara Swisher:Well, maybe they thought that was a great thing, and they were like, why doesn't he have been like this? Well, but I'm saying too late. That was in 2007. I think they're saying, why aren't you, John? I think that's a compliment. But you are liberated from the pressures of running for reelection. Do you feel that way? No, it's like I've said. I've been—I got in a dust-up with Trump 1 over filing a bill that could only allow him to fire Mueller over for costs. So it's not like this is new. But like I've said time and time again, I forget who the talking head is on C-SPAN, but I think he consistently wears a plaid jacket.

34:50I need to know his name. But he almost always prefaces a comment that I make about, well, of course, he's retiring. Why is that even relevant?

34:59Kara Swisher:Well, you might feel a little more free. Well, no, but the point is I have expressed my concern in the past. I no longer have to worry about what language I use to communicate it because I don't have to go through the cost benefit. You can be clearer than some of your colleagues, because I have to tell you, when I talk to some of your colleagues off the record, the Republicans, they're much more critical of Trump. Of course. But look, I mean, you know what all martyrs have in common? What? They're dead. And in politics, that's losing elections. I have no problem with people who are running for reelection or managing the complexities of their state to pull back.

35:36I believe that they would be there if things became existential. But it's silly. That's what I'm saying to this talking head dude. It's like, of course, I don't have to go through that cost-benefit analysis. I don't have to wonder if I say it this way or in one sentence, am I now going to have to raise$10 million more and buy that many more gross rating points to explain what I meant? Right, right. So it's not that I wouldn't say it. What I'm saying has been consistent since I was a freshman in the statehouse. How I'm saying it is different because I don't have that cost-benefit analysis.

36:08Kara Swisher:To be fair, a lot of, speaking of martyrs, Republicans criticizing Trump on their way out the door has become a theme. It has. I mean, you had former Senators Ben Sasse, Mitt Romney, Jeff Flake, former House Speaker Paul Ryan, Congressman Liz Cheney, Marjorie Taylor Greene. You know what they all have in common? And Congressman Don Bacon. Do you know what they all have in common? Yeah. That they've criticized the president, and I've never criticized the president. Yes, I wanted to ask about that. Because, look, I mean, all these people— Can I just point out? That was really interesting when we met.

36:38Kara Swisher:You aim it mainly at the administration and advisors and not himself. Yeah. You've repeatedly said you think he's getting bad advice. Though as a former business person at Blue Chip Corporations, you've been around the block. You know the CEO often is the center of criticism. So what's the difference? Well, I believe there's some great people. By the way, the majority. One of the things I've done when I talk to a lot of people in the administration, and I feel like I have very good relationships with a number of people in the cabinet and the administration, I say, I'll let Bill know off the record who I'm talking about, but I'm not talking about you.

37:10I mean, that's a way of saying I've got a problem with people. I'm in the unique position of having spent almost more than 25 years in top-tier management consulting.

37:22Kara Swisher:You have. And 20 years in legislative politics, including leadership roles, particularly as Speaker of the House and turning the state around. So I'm in a unique position to really help or maybe just intuitively look around corners. And I'm expecting people in the White House who are similarly situated to use that experience to warn the president about second and third order effects. And I feel like there's two ways to give the president bad advice. One is coming up with a really lousy idea in selling the president on it, kind of like Stephen Miller saying any immigration reform is bad. I think the president would like to do immigration reform.

38:02I believe Stephen Miller is one of the people that are preventing that from happening. Another one is the president comes up with a really bad idea, and you don't have the guts to tell him it's a bad idea. And that's what I'm pointing to. I expect more out of these people. But not from him. What's that?

38:17Kara Swisher:Not from him. The president, at the end of the day, needs people that have the courage to let him know what he doesn't know. And then if you start seeing, if I start seeing more signals from the White House saying, Tom, we did our best. We went to the math. We agree with you. Then maybe I've got to start looking at the president. That happened in the first administration. He seems to be staffing with people who don't do that. You had Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis, Attorney General Bill Barr, Chairman of the Joint Justice Staff. Well, he had five sects. Mark Milley, yes. Did you watch Spinal Tap back in the day?

38:47Yes, I did. Well, I said the sec defs were like the drummer in Spinal Tap. They kind of blew up after every major performance. Yes, that's right. So, yeah, I get that. But maybe that's why some people are holding back. But you can't hold back. And the reason why I would suggest they do it for no other reason than their own personal reputation. One of the reasons why I like Warsh, you know, as the future Fed chair, is I think his reputation and the work that he has done is more important to him. than any sort of alignment with the president. So not a sycophant. I don't believe he'll be a sycophant.

39:20Kara Swisher:Are there too many sycophants in the White House? I do believe we have some folks that, gosh, boss, that's a great idea. And you know in their heart of hearts it's not. You're being dishonest to the president when you know in your heart and in your mind it's not a good idea, and you say great idea, boss. You're being dishonest to the president. Does he want that feedback? You know, who doesn't like? I mean, I don't really like self-affirming stuff. No, I like the opposite. But I do too. You'll go into my office sometimes and you'll hear yelling behind my doors. And half the time, it's the staff yelling at me.

39:55That's the sort of stuff that I reward. I want people to stretch me and grow me and inform me. And the president needs people that are going to stretch him, grow him, and inform them. Is he welcoming that? And if not, walk out, guys. Life is good on the outside. If you have any kind of experience, you should be able to get a job pretty easily. different selections of staff. Yeah, I know it. I'm just saying they're letting the president down and they're diminishing what could otherwise be a strong legacy if they don't get their act together. And there are political consequences. The thing we have to talk about right now, we're not doing too well.

40:31And what would typically be a negative election, I think, is far more so because we're not executing.

40:37Kara Swisher:I'm going to get into that. Because, you know, if saying he's getting bad advice makes him a passive bystander, he doesn't seem to be that. But ever so, we get a question from an outside expert. Yours comes from longtime Washington defense attorney, Abby Lowell, who's represented people in the Trump family and also, obviously, Tisha James and many others, Don Lemon. Let's listen to it. Senator Dillis, so good to talk with you. I have this question. You've been one of the very few Republicans to have pushed back on President Trump or folks in his administration on almost any issue. The Founders' entire premise was that there would be three co-equal branches of government to check the power of the other branch.

41:15Has Congress abdicated its role when the majority in Congress and the president are of the same party? And will this check and balance only be able to occur when there is the so-called divided government? And lastly, since you have decided to leave this very important role, who will you hope or who will you ask to play the role you have played over this last year in the future? Great question. Well, let's start with the foundational question. I've been here when Washington was completely controlled by Democrats. I saw the same behavior. Let's not pretend like questioning the president is this or failing to question the president is this new thing under Trump.

42:06I saw it under Biden. I saw it under Obama. So let's be real. In fact, back, I think it was when we either passed the Respect for Marriage or Safer Communities Act, I had a couple of Democrats come up to me and high five me. He said, thank you for being bipartisan. I said, I appreciate that. I'm looking forward to you doing that someday. And they go, well, we did. We voted on the bill. I said, my God, you had 50 members, 51 of your members vote on the bill. That's not a tough vote for you. And so I would ask people to show me an example of somebody who was a Tom Tillis in the Biden administration on the Democrat side.

42:40Kara Swisher:Who are you? This is your party we're talking about. Yeah, I know. I just want to make it clear. There are so many people that their memories only happen to be as recent as the election. You had Sinema. And they're gone because the Democratic Party turned their back on them and tried to replace them. You're leaving. Kyrsten Sinema was absolutely recruited. Klusen Camp? The Democrats recruited to go against her. Fetterman. What in the world? I'm just saying. He's a Republican now, though. He is. Welcome to the party. But I'm just saying, look, it exists in every camp. And the ones who did it, who actually Kyrsten wanted to continue her career, was rewarded by having a primary run against her.

43:20Kara Swisher:He's got a whole lot of other problems. But all I'm saying is everybody needs to look in the mirror when they ask this question. It's not a Republican phenomenon. It's a bipartisan phenomenon. Is it better to have a divided government with Congress and a different? If you have the right leadership, I could see where I think that the Article 1 branch is safest when you have divided government. And who would you think is going to take up your sword, I guess? I don't know. There's people out there that are independent. And I think a lot of it will come down. You know, the states matter. You know, you're more likely, you know, in this election cycle, we're at risk of maybe losing some of the more moderate states.

44:00So it's going to be less likely it comes from the usual suspects. I represent the people of North Carolina. People ask me what I love North Carolina. The reason I've lived in it since 1998, I love it. But I also love the politics of North Carolina where 40 percent of the people are independent. They're not affiliated with either party. And then the remainder are evenly divided. So when people ask me, you know, I said, look at my state, look at my positions, and plus or minus 10 percent is in complete alignment with the priorities of the people of North Carolina. So is there anybody in Congress right now you consider very independent in the GOP?

44:36I think, you know, I think you're looking, I don't want to name names because then you put targets on them and, you know, force people to go around and attack them. But there are four or five members that I think, given the right situation, will be doing the very same kinds of things that I'm doing today.

44:59Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

45:06Kara Swisher:Hi, I'm Brene Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop. A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning. It's going to be fun. We rarely agree. But we almost never disagree. And we're always learning. That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday. For the last 10 years, everything in American politics has basically revolved around one man. And as a political journalist who came of age during Donald Trump's rise in 2016, I've had a front row seat.

45:45I am officially running for president of the United States. It's going to be only America first. America first.

45:56Kara Swisher:Thousands of supporters of President Trump stormed the U.S. Capitol building. But is it possible to talk about politics without talking about Donald Trump? That's the question I'm going to ask in our new show from Vox. The idea of like a post-Trump or not exactly Trump-focused show can exist because he's not really driving any agenda items. It really does feel like so reactive. You know, I think this Iran thing is also going to cause a big split in the GOP. So far it doesn't among like people who say they're MAGA voters are still with Trump. But like for the first time, you see on a major issue, open opposition from the start of this war.

46:32Kara Swisher:I'm Estet Herndon and welcome to America Actually. So let's talk about where the Republican Party is headed in a few years. You've said you're not trying to undermine their problems with your criticism of the administration. I'm trying to get more Republicans elected in November. A new Fox News poll, and I'm using Fox specifically, shows Trump's approval rating dropping to 41 percent. Others are even lower. There's also sort of a growing problem of extremism with some young voters. The Washington Post had a great story today after the assassination of Charlie Kirk. White supremacists like Nick Fuentes increasingly seem to be filling the vacuum.

47:05Kara Swisher:Now, Democrats have problems, too. But let's talk about the radicalization of the young right. And what are the key things in this election coming up are you most worried about? To be honest with you, I hear that. But I don't think that the young right described in the way that you did is any greater than the young left. Matter of fact, I had a young lady who had to be a part of the young left try to get me a gotcha question on the way out the door. Now, you're talking to somebody who is speaker past the first only restitution for forced sterilization victims that was invariably imposed against black people.

47:43I come up here, I write 137-year wrong with the Lumbee Nation. I get them recognized. You're a complex man. All the way through Jim Crow, et cetera. But I have this young, extreme equivalent to what you're talking about, the radical right, asking me some nonsense question, trying to paint what she had perceived, I guess, as he's a white Republican, so he must be a racist. This is a gotcha question.

48:06Kara Swisher:Nick Fuentes' popularity is not good branding for you. Neither is. No, no. What I'm saying, though, is I think we need to just be clear that we're probably in equal ratios of the radicalized, if we want to call it young or whatever. Having said that, the people who are in the left or right of center of politics that are registered are independent voters, do not like chaos. They do not like bullies and they do not like the kind of elevated language that we have today. And, you know, it was in 2009, I was convinced that the bullying and the pen and the phone and getting Obamacare in spite of any Republican vote, I was convinced when Time magazine was saying this is the end of conservatives, the beginning of liberal progressivism, to quit my job because I believed that the Obama administration was going to overreach and that I was going to get as a majority and probably become Speaker of the House.

49:08That happened. And it happened when everybody thought that they were they were riding the wave. We're almost guilty of doing the same thing. We read more into the election results than we should have. We're driving down a mandate that our base loves and much a lot of it. I agree with the what I have problems with the how, but it is alienated independent voters. It has. And independent voters, the only way you win statewide elections in North Carolina.

49:35Kara Swisher:You're worried mostly about the independent. I'm very worried about the independent voter. And I'm worried about the suburban voters, the right and left of center. You know, in my race, I got about 10 percent of the Democrat vote in both of my two elects. I think now you'd be lucky to get one or two percent of the Democrat vote. Well, you're seeing all these elections. They're going. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I mean, it fills 2010-ish in reverse. So in that regard, we have two more questions. We have a second expert question for you comes from one of our listeners who happens to be one of your constituents.

50:05Kara Swisher:My name is Bob Thomason. I'm a native of North Carolina and a North Carolina voter. I'm a retired businessman living in Charlotte. My question to the senator has to do with the fact that our country can no longer get things done. And the major reason for that is that our politicians won't work across party lines to make things happen. It's really gotten embarrassing, quite frankly. Half our population is left behind by our economy. Our infrastructure is failing, including our once admired air traffic control system. And AI is coming and we have no plan. I'm old enough to remember a time when politicians did cross the aisle and work with each other.

50:50They even held a rogue president to account once. So my question to the senator is, what has to happen for our country to get working again and for politicians to work with each other

51:01Kara Swisher:instead of, you know, adopting the my way or the highway approach. We're rapidly losing ground not only to our rivals, but our enemies. I look forward to hearing the senator's response. That was really thoughtful. Well, it was. And he lives in my neck of the woods in North Carolina. First and foremost, we've got to preserve the filibuster. That will destroy bipartisanship forever if we do it. Because the basis of both parties will absolutely vote you out if you give on. And so I think first and foremost, we need to get the Democratic Party and now the Republican Party as litmus tests are asking primary opponents, are they for nuking the filibuster?

51:48So, number one, I don't know what his party affiliation is. Go back to your Democrat or GOP meetings and say this is nonsense. And then I think be a part of an organization that remembers the people that produce bipartisan results and reward them and go after the ones who are actually making it almost impossible to get done. But Kara, I'll tell you, you're a smart person. You do your research. You go back and find a time. And in the Biden administration, I was one of the leads on Respect for Marriage, Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. I was the sixth person to join the discussions to the gentleman's point about the bipartisan infrastructure bill.

52:34You go find a time where Democrats passed that many bills of that substance when the roles were reversed, and they had to walk the so-called plank to add to Republicans to do it. So a part of it, again, I don't know his party affiliation, a part of it is going back and say, Can you at least do what the Republicans did in the Biden administration, Democrats, when the roles are reversed? Can we start telling everybody that compromise is good? Good can come out of it. Well, the language in the White House is quite different than that, right? Well, I agree. And so was the language. And, you know, frankly, even I mentioned this with Biden.

53:12The reason, you know, these were historic bills, these bipartisan bills. You know why I didn't go to the White House for the signing ceremony, particularly for the two that we led on? is because I was always wondering if I did, there would be some partisan statement at the signing ceremony, and in all three cases, there were. A Democrat president, instead of thanking everybody for bipartisanship and moving on and then maybe saving that comment for a party rally, he says it when he has Republicans present who are taking on political capital. What has to happen now?

53:46Kara Swisher:Because Trump made nine of those today, for example. So this guy is saying, I don't really care. What's going to bring it back? Well, I think the I think independence voters rewarding independent members is how you get back. So get independent voters could do this country a great service by saying, you know what? I'm going to set aside some of my ideological priorities for a while and reward behavior. Just say because if you have enough people thinking independently, then if you're an extreme right or extreme left, This isn't for you. Don't waste your time. But for the remainder of the majority of the country, you'll see things that will swim left and right of center that will be done on a more consistent partisan basis.

54:32Kara Swisher:I mean, I know you're worried about these elections. They're going to swing the other way. I think, you know, look, for this Congress, you know, any sort of major bipartisan bills are all but probably impossible to get done. Function of time, for one thing. You know, after June, I mean, it's going to be all about the campaign. So what are you most concerned about with the midterms coming up? I am concerned as a Republican, and I became concerned. That's why I voiced my concern. Now the Senate's in play now. I believe, I think we're going to be okay with the Senate, you know, as long as we continue to support our incumbents.

55:09But I believe, you know, that we could net a loss. I don't think this is a year where any reasonable expectation of gaining numbers exists. But, you know, I'm going down and working and going to work in the trenches with the state legislatures. I think one of the things that's beginning to be reported is very important are the number of state legislatures across the country that many of them gained a majority back in the same time frame that I became speaker, starting to look at their suburban districts, ones with either right of center or Republicans' independents that are at risk. Palm Beach just shifted.

55:43That's exactly right. So I'm going down. I'm going down to North Carolina.

55:46Kara Swisher:What is the reddest flag right now for you in this, for the Republicans? Basically, the evaporation of independent support. The only independents that are supporting us right now are the ones who are right of the most extreme MAGA movement. They're the only ones that will support us because they've got nowhere to go. But that's a fraction of the independent base. For the most part, 80, 85 percent of the independent bases, they're either going to stay at home or they're going to vote for what they consider to be an alternative. It looks like they're voting. An alternative, yeah. It looks like they're voting like in Mar-a-Lago.

56:16Well, you got voter intensity, too. Democrat voter intensity is through the roof. You had 125 ,000 more Democrats vote in the primary than Republicans. Roy Cooper got 125 ,000. He looks like he's quite ahead. He got 125 ,000 more votes than all Republicans in that Republican primary. We got to get our folks enthusiastic, and we also have to get a fair share of the independents.

56:36Kara Swisher:Cooper's very popular right now, and he may be replacing. I know, Roy. I'd have a non-alcoholic beer with them, but I'm not going to vote for them. Okay. I'll tell Roy that. Yeah, I think he knows. Last question. When you think about what happens post-Trump, would you come back to politics? Would you? And what are you going to do next? What is your business person? What do you think your best contribution is? You know, one thing that I want to do is really take a look at an organization that, like the gentleman in the question, could come to and say, if you're serious about, you know, supporting people and encouraging bipartisan behavior, then there needs to be an organization that provides the air cover for the people that do that.

57:25Everybody high-fives, signing ceremony. It's like, oh, sucks for you. You've got a primary. There needs to be an organization in place that rewards behavior, not specific legislative outcomes. There also needs to be an organization that goes after the far left and the far right for being the antithesis of that behavior. So that's going to be an unpaid project. I don't want to make any money. I'm not going to be a registered lobbyist. I don't want to make any money in the...

57:51Kara Swisher:You're just going to call Joe Manchin and the two of you are... Political operations. But, you know, I had an equal amount of time at Pricewaterhouse, PricewaterhouseCoopers, and IBM, and technology, media and entertainment, telecommunications, banking, and utilities. So I'm probably going to go – and technology, AI is interesting to me. I know that's an area of interest for you. I think that that industry is going to need some help to really maintain our innovation advantage that we have today. And that's an area where, short of lobbying, I think we can get the industry to provide an answer to a lot of the questions about governance and just making sure that we keep the U.S.

58:40ahead of all other pacing threats.

58:41Kara Swisher:That said, they've never had a worse reputation in the technology industry. You go, let me ask you the last question. You go into the technology industry. What do you do for them? Well, the first thing. Because they look like villains. I know. Well, the first thing you do for them is say, guys, you got to get your act together on all of your platforms with respect to child safety and to other kinds of bad outcomes that are being well documented. You know, this is a great week to have this discussion because you've seen the judgments. You've got to make this a safe place. I have no problem, incidentally, with having significant Australia-like controls on people under 16 using the Internet.

59:23Me neither. Unless it has— Look, we agree. Yeah, it has to have some sort of a qualification process for a child to get online. Then you've got to go beyond that. My goodness. Even if—you know, I heard on Judiciary Committee years ago, well, it's so hard to do this. You can't tell me it's hard now. It's a matter of margins and will. And you need to plow some of the margins back into getting this right. Because if you don't, then it's going to slow down our tech sector. I want my tech sector to survive and thrive. Is this their cigarette company moment? No, because they're going to be around. I think that the difference with the cigarette company, the cigarette company moment is recognizing it's going to be the end of an industry.

1:00:07except for the fact that the tobacco plant has a lot of other scientific uses, fortunately. But no, they're going to be around. The question is who the 800-pound gorillas are going to be. I want them to be U.S.-based tech firms, but operating in a way that is safe for children, that's safe for business, and addresses many of the malign uses of their platforms as possible. Because there's a political... Look, we've got to get our act together because state actors and now any terrorist organization. You know, now it used to be you had to be a nation state to have the kind of scale to be disruptive in any other society.

1:00:44Hell, now all you need is a smart dude with a computer or woman. And that's a frightening prospect. And so they have to get it under control. They have enjoyed great success. I'm glad they've returned value to the shareholders. Their shareholders should also know that they want to be aligned with companies that are responsible in addressing some of the negative outcomes that but for these platforms would have never existed.

1:01:11Kara Swisher:So you're going into AI? Of course you are. I don't know what I'm going to do. What I am going to do is spend more time with my wife and spend more time with my grandchildren. But I'm 65. I think I'll probably... You've got some time. I do have to ask you, why is it that you want to live forever? You'll have to find out. You'll have to watch it. I I don't. It's a joke. It's a joke. I don't want to live forever. There's incredible, speaking of AI, there's so much incredible scientific progress happening. Yeah. And it's being hindered by a lot of narcissism and not focused on everybody, just the very wealthy.

1:01:49Kara Swisher:And so I want to separate the charlatanism from what's real because we can solve cancer. We can solve all manner of things. And North Carolina obviously would, in fact, be one of the bigger centers for it, given our medical. Yeah. I'm watching right now. I probably shouldn't admit this on TV, but I'm watching the— He did rival me? No, Fallout. Have you seen that series? No, no. Well, it's a really distorted outcome if we don't get this right. Is this a nuclear war thing? Well, you know, it's premised on the game Fallout. I know, but I watch happy gay romance. I only watch dark. See, my wife says I go feral when I'm up here.

1:02:22I watch all the dark stuff here, and I watch the happy stuff at home.

1:02:25Kara Swisher:All right, okay. But really, you should almost watch it. you will hate it, but you could watch it if, you know, because you talk about life extension and only certain people have a privilege in the future. I could easily, I hadn't thought about it until you made the comment, but I could easily see where you go, yep, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah, I think you'll like it a lot. I'm sorry, I did ask you one question you didn't answer. What does the party look like after Trump? I think the party will settle back in, like every time. Somebody probably asked that question during the Gilded Age, you know, somebody asked it during other periods of populism.

1:03:00So, you know, I think that, you know, we go through the ebb and flow. I mean, some people probably ask that after Democrats got hammered in 2010. What does the future of the Democratic Party look like? So we go through these things. I mean, it's going to depend on who steps up as a leader. If people double down on another phase of populism, if we get hit. If we double down on something that deals as a loss in November, whoever is suggesting that should by no means be the next nominee for president of the United States for the Republican Party. You got to learn. I mean, if we lose in large numbers beyond what the historic average would be for a midterm election after a presidential, then I want a leader that's instructed by that.

1:03:49And if they're not instructed by that, it's not like I'm going to go change my registration and vote for a Democrat, but I'll work on everything I can to get the kind of person

1:03:57Kara Swisher:that I think will turn the rudder. Yeah. So would you run for president? No, not under any circumstances. No circumstances. I've never wanted a public job. I actually deferred on having a security detail when I was speaker because I actually thought it was silly. I never want a job that requires a security detail. All right. Because it robs my privacy. And I'm a very private I'd rather be in the woods than being an office person. All right, then. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

1:04:30Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Eamon Whalen. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're just in time, Tillis. If not, you're too late, Tom. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

1:05:03Kara Swisher:We'll be back on Thursday with more.