Survivors Speak Out: Taking On the ‘Epstein Class’

16:56Liz Stein:Is it happening to you too? And already then go and tell an adult, right? Because we're having these conversations and we're opening the door. Yes, it matters a great deal. Yeah, but I mean, it's not to say that I still have nightmares regularly. And since I've been doing this work, I walk the halls of the house in my sleep. My partner turned around and was like, are you okay? You're twitching and your eyes are going crazy, fluttering. Because it just lives in this place psychologically that when you start tapping back into it, it's very real.

17:26Kara Swisher:Yeah, you're definitely paying a price. This is not even close. I don't know if you know this. I testified against a sexual harasser named John McLaughlin in a trial. And I was 20. It was 20-something years old. I was not sexual acts. I was testifying on behalf of someone who was, who I witnessed. And they threatened me and threatened my career, actually. I was just a young reporter. And they said, if you do this, we're going to get you. And I then went on to use my name, my actual name, not a source said or source who saw it. Because I felt like it was critically important for people don't believe if they don't have a name attached to it.

18:00Kara Swisher:You know what I mean? Unfortunately, yes. And I remember being warned by, like, your career is going to be hurt by this powerful man. And I said, you know, and I did run into him later. And he said to me, it was, everyone stabbed me in the back and you stabbed me in the front, you know, because I went, I was so public and so everything. And I was in my 20s and I said, anytime, you son of a bitch. And it was great, I have to say. And it didn't have a price. It didn't, I mean, the price was a good one. It was worth it. It was, and it was nothing like what you've been through, obviously.

18:29Dani Bensky:Yeah, and I love what you just said. It was worth it. When I expressed to you that at 22, you're launching out into the world, you're still looking to adults to mentor you and to really find your way and to succeed. And when your identity and your sense of self and your voice get shut down at those younger ages, it's really hard to find it again. And so being able to speak now, I find I have a really difficult time shutting up. I have to keep talking. And I need to make sure my point is heard. And I've even allowed myself the ability, I was like, I'm going to be messy because there's a learning curve to having a voice at 57, you know, 35 years later.

19:16Dani Bensky:And that's okay with me.

19:20Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

19:29Liz Stein:For the last 10 years, everything in American politics has basically revolved around one man.

19:35Jess Michaels:And as a political journalist who came of age during Donald Trump's rise in 2016, I've had a front row seat.

19:42Kara Swisher:I am officially running for president of the United States. It's going to be only America first.

19:52Dani Bensky:America first.

19:54Kara Swisher:Thousands of supporters of President Trump stormed the U.S. Capitol building.

19:59Dani Bensky:But is it possible to talk about politics without talking about Donald Trump?

20:04Jess Michaels:That's the question I'm going to ask in our new show from Vox.

20:08Liz Stein:The idea of like a post-Trump or not exactly Trump-focused show can exist because he's not really driving any agenda items. It really does feel like so reactive.

20:14Dani Bensky:You know, I think this Iran thing is also going to cause a big split in the GOP. So far, it doesn't among like people who say they're MAGA voters are still with Trump. But like for the first time, you see on a major issue, open opposition from the start of this war.

20:29Kara Swisher:I'm Estet Herndon and welcome to America Actually.

20:35Kara Swisher:Hi, I'm Brene Brown. And I'm Adam Grant.

20:37Jess Michaels:And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop.

20:40Kara Swisher:A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning.

20:45Jess Michaels:It's going to be fun. We rarely agree.

20:48Liz Stein:But we almost never disagree. And we're always learning.

20:51Dani Bensky:That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.

21:00Kara Swisher:Let's talk about people who are trying to stop you still about the Trump administration's haphazard release of the files. It only did so after Congress forced its hand. There are possibly millions of more files still being withheld. And this week, the Department of Justice also acknowledged that tens of thousands of documents have been taken down for review. It says it plans to republish them. Danny and Liz, your names have appeared in the files unredacted. You already shared your stories publicly. But what went through your mind when you saw them there? Danny first.

21:29Liz Stein:I mean, for me, it was just, it's a gutting feeling that like you start shaking and feeling this. It is PTSD, classic PTSD. And what I was feeling was not necessarily even for myself. There was a Jane Doe that was in my 302 and her name was out. And it was somebody that's close to me that I had said like, you know, you never have to worry about this because you've been redacted from the beginning. You've never come from it publicly.

21:58Kara Swisher:Could you explain what a 302, I happen to know because I was with a bunch of lawyers last night, but what's a 302?

22:04Liz Stein:Yeah, so your 302 is your statement that you gave to the FBI, right? So in 2008, when I was so scared, I talked to the FBI and I was actually, it's not, you know, I was so scared. And so it's not exactly the most like illuminating piece, but I did mention names, right? And so in that FBI report, you know, there were a couple of names in there that were not redacted. And so we were looking at a scared, you know, 20-year-olds reporting on something that happened before they were ready to talk about it, to be honest. And then you're adding names in there. And so now that piece is out there for everybody to see.

22:48Liz Stein:And it just feels really unfair because it was never meant to be public. Or those people were never meant to be. It was supposed to have been part of an investigation. So I just think, yeah. I also, my dog was redacted, but my name and my information was not. And so I think that that is like the most classic look of just the sloppiness of it all and just the carelessness of it because I had my MySpace page and they literally blacked out my dog. Well, your dog didn't need that trauma. No.

23:22Kara Swisher:I'm teasing.

23:24Jess Michaels:What about you, Liz? So, you know, for me, I was just kind of blown away at the incompetence. my information was unredacted in a sentence that said Stein was a victim of Epstein and Maxwell. So that, you know, that was just kind of mind-blowing. But zooming out and looking at the bigger picture, there are a lot of ways that you can threaten and intimidate a survivor, right? And it felt like in exposing people's personal information, you see us and you see us at press conferences and you see us speaking out and I know that we look really strong. We are really strong, right? But it takes a toll on us.

24:08Jess Michaels:And think about these women who for three decades have not been able to really grapple with what happened to them and have kept it inside. And now their friends and family are reading their name, their information, things that you might have said in a deposition, things that you might have said in your 302 that you never, ever expected. Anyone to hear the most intimate details of your life are out there for everyone to see. And that's a way to intimidate. That's a way to make it so people don't feel like they are safe coming forward because, you know, everything that you're promised that you'll be protected just went out the window.

24:52Kara Swisher:Yeah, absolutely. Jess, in an interview with the Times of London, you said the release of the document feels, quote, purposefully chaotic, like it's meant to mess with your head. Let me expound on this. As we said, there's millions of files in some way. Chaos was unavoidable, obviously. Talk about what the Justice Department might have done to release these files in a way that better helps the public understand what's in them and the scope of the crimes.

25:13Dani Bensky:Yes, and just to clarify, I'm not a lawyer. No. But as I understand it, this redaction for a case is a really common and simple skill.

25:25Kara Swisher:It is.

25:25Dani Bensky:And millions of files being sent from, say, a prosecution or to a defense or defense prosecution when files are shared, a tactic that is used, as I understand it, is to make them as chaotic and send as many files as you can through. So it makes it very difficult for people to go through. So they seemed to be following what is typically done when you're trying to thwart an investigation or a trial. And that's really hard to look past as, oh, it was just innocently done. There were so many. There were so many, and we had such a short period of time. But a couple of things happened. One of the things we've heard from Congress members is when they've gone to look at the redacted files, They found that the supposed unredacted files were redacted by the FBI, and the DOJ never let anyone know and never had those files cleared of redaction so that they truly were unredacted when Congress wanted to look at them.

26:30Dani Bensky:And that feels purposeful. And so, you know, one of the things we've talked about is that they've miscategorized things. Yes, and that feels really...

26:42Kara Swisher:They're trying to get you to lose them. Oh, yeah. That happened during the Japanese internment thing. They put them different places. So you couldn't find the files.

26:49Dani Bensky:Exactly. So they didn't make sense. So it was very purposeful in being chaotic. And yeah, that feels like intimidation. That feels like a lack of transparency. That feels corrupt. Like we're really trying to keep this cover-up going and allaying transparency as long as absolutely possible.

27:09Kara Swisher:To create a mess. I'd love to know, how are you able to find documents related to you? I mean, I searched myself, and there were two mentions. He'd been reading my articles, and in one case, one of a conference I had, we bought a list, and he must have been on it. And so we got sent something. Luckily, I went back and checked, and he tried to get into my conference because he was very up with the tech people all the time, as you know. And on the thing, it says, Kara says, absolutely not. Like, you know, not letting him in. but um how did you find yourselves let's start with you Danielle and then Liz and then Jess

27:44Liz Stein:yeah um for me I mean initially I searched my name and then a bunch of stuff came up which was crazy because I was like oh nothing's gonna be here but of course there was so um there was that and then um once they started redacting you know they put everything up and then they took everything down like as far as my um things related to me went so um I called my lawyer I said everything's gone. I don't know where, you know, why it went. I had the EFTA numbers. And she said, well, they're pulling everything down to redact everything now. And it was like, a little late for that, but here we are. We're doing it.

28:17Kara Swisher:Right. Because people could have gotten them. Yeah.

28:19Liz Stein:Which also feels a little bit like...

28:21Kara Swisher:People instantly downloaded the whole thing. Lots of people did that. Yes.

28:24Liz Stein:But also like, what else are they pulling down? Was this all part of the plan, right? To like not redact survivors, to have to be able to pull everything down so that we didn't know what was missing and then put everything back up. Right. Um, and so anyway, when, when I was told that things were coming back online, um, I knew that there's, there's an ID number. Um, actually I don't know exactly, I have it written down somewhere, but it has like your, your number. And then it's like a 0.25 or whatever, unless you were a part of a trial and you gave testimony, um, and then you have like a full number.

28:56Liz Stein:So, um, somebody that's a a legal analyst who actually works for MSNOW, told me that this was there and I think I found you and is this your file? So she gave me that information. So at least I was able to find the majority of my file there. And all of them are there from what you can understand. You know, okay. So I was looking for my 2019. In 2019, the FBI came to my house and we spoke for hours. It was like almost two hours. and I remember talking quite a bit about just what had happened but nobody said like can you give an official statement and they just kept asking me sort of about who I knew and about different names and I felt like I gave them a lot more information it's basically one paragraph that is written up in 2019 so that does not feel whole to me so I am still curious if there's more out but again with the mislabeling too, there's a manila envelope with my name on the side of it.

29:58Liz Stein:And that is not redacted, my name, and it has, I believe, my birthday underneath it. And on the front of that manila envelope, it has nothing to do with my story. It's about Florida. Tony Figuera is mentioned in there, which is not my story at all. So I'm like, so whose notes are on my file? So there's just mislabeling. It's a disaster. Yeah, so it's a disaster.

30:18Jess Michaels:It's a chaotic disaster. All right, Liz. So I also just put in search terms that I thought would bring something up. And I found the information from the Maxwell trial that involved me. And I also found my FBI intake form. That's really all of the information that I found. I called the FBI and the FBI did an intake form on me, but they never contacted me to do a victim statement. So that's something that to me is just really glaring. They have this intake from me saying that I'm a victim of this crime, yet they never followed up with me.

30:56Kara Swisher:Followed up. That happens a lot. That happens a lot in general. But in this case, it seems like they dropped the ball a lot. We'll get to that in a minute. What about you, Jess?

31:04Dani Bensky:So the very first file, which was the email between me and especially Amanda Young, was found by a journalist. And the journalist reached out and said, that I think this is you. And they were correct. But then the second round of files that were found, someone publicly, and it is public, so, you know, it should be fine, said, hey, I heard you on a podcast and I think this file is yours and put the EFTA number publicly. And so I went and yes, it was. And then they found other files for me and DM'd me. and they've been the only ones to actually find them. And there's files missing. So it took a year and a half.

31:51Dani Bensky:After I gave my information on the hotline tip in September of 2019, the first response that I got was from Detective Harkins, who had called me back after the hotline tip. I told him what happened, and he said, well, what do you want us to do? It was 30 years ago. And yes, I said, well, you asked me to call you. That's why I'm calling you to tell you. And I was calling to tell him about my roommate, who was the person that had brought me to Epstein, because I knew that she had worked for him a minimum of eight to 10 years. And obviously would be a person of interest. It would take a year and a half for special agent and Mandy Young to actually ever call me back.

32:33Kara Swisher:So it's both incompetence and possible, all manner of things. So all of three of you were at the House Judiciary Committee hearing last month with Attorney General Pam Bondi. I want to play a little bit from that hearing. And this is an exchange between Bondi and Washington Democratic Representative Pramila Jayapal. Will you turn to them now and apologize for what your Department of Justice has put them through with the absolutely unacceptable release of the Epstein files and their information? Congresswoman, you sat before Merrick Garland sat in this chair twice.

33:15Dani Bensky:Attorney General, Bonnie, I'm going to finish my answer.

33:18Kara Swisher:No, I'm going to reclaim my time because I asked you a specific question that I would like you to answer. This is the same woman who bragged about having the Epstein client list on her desk about a year ago, even though there's no evidence it exists. What's it been like to watch the Trump administration go from championing the release of these files to this? They campaigned on this issue where Bondi can't even acknowledge you. Talk to each of you about that moment. Dani, why don't you start?

33:48Liz Stein:Yeah, I mean, it's whiplash. But I also think the re-traumatization is so great. It's exactly what Jeffrey did to us. And it's the same pattern, right? Where it always felt like, you know, he would hold the carrot, or at least for my story, He would hold the carrot in front of my nose always about, you're a ballet dancer. I know all the top people. I can introduce you to the most powerful people. Or I can give you studio space. I can give you anything if you do these things for me. And then would turn around and treat you like trash after that. You know, after my story includes, my mom had a brain tumor and I brought the scans to him.

34:26Liz Stein:and after that moment that I brought brain scans to him, my abuse really revved up because he had said, he basically threatened me and said that he can help with her care, meaning like not paying for anything. He had a piece of information he could use. Exactly. He used the information against me. So without going too deep into my backstory, because you can find it out there, but it is that using the information and the manipulation that is involved. You know, it is definitely, it feels like, you know, they had all this information on us. And then it's that, the feeling of like feeling like a ghost again, right?

35:07Liz Stein:Where I would walk through the halls of the house and so many people would see me and I would be there, but I never felt like I was a person. I felt like I was - She not turning around was like that, not even acknowledging you. Exactly, exactly like that. I just felt like, you know, that image of just drifting through the house was so similar in the sense of like, she will not even turn around and acknowledge a survivor's existence. And so just having that inhumane, just completely, there's just such a lack, profound lack of empathy and compassion that it just feels like she's not even a human being.

35:45Liz Stein:Yeah, well, that might be true.

35:47Kara Swisher:Jess?

35:48Dani Bensky:Yeah, when you were playing it, it really just hit me in the gut again. I think that sometimes when I'm in those rooms or we're in, you know, the house, I might disconnect a little bit because it's all really overwhelming. But what I still can't get past is that no one was asking her to apologize for what Merrick Garland did.

36:14Kara Swisher:Yeah, no one was.

36:15Dani Bensky:asking her to apologize for the damage that her Department of Justice did. And that should be a really simple thing to do, to even acknowledge that we were standing there. It was as if we didn't exist. And that is a, as Dani said, that is just the crux of the injury. Liz?

36:34Jess Michaels:For me, it was really upsetting, you know, as Dani and Jess just expressed, to sit there and for her to not react to us. But I let go of that moment of upset for a moment, and I really just looked at it, and I thought, wow, by her actions, she's telling everyone exactly who she is. And so in ways, I think that her reaction couldn't have been better because it was so telling that she could not even be human. And I think that we're seeing over and over and over again where our Department of Justice is, it feels like to me, Kara, it feels like they are trying to push a narrative despite the fact that it's false.

37:25Jess Michaels:But what we're seeing is that people see through that narrative. And so I think that the more they behave like this publicly, the more people are going to demand that this all come out.

37:41Kara Swisher:That's correct. That's exactly what that photo did. I have to say it had enormous impact. And, you know, her trying not to was so awkward and strange. It happens a lot at these congressional hearings. And a lot of Democrats are promising to investigate the Trump administration over the Epstein files, obviously politically expedient for them to say they will. And what what the representative Jayapal was doing was a very typical tactic, right? Turn around and say, you're sorry, it happened with Mark Zuckerberg and others around parents whose children had died because of issues around their bullying and things like that.

38:13Kara Swisher:But it's also incredibly effective, as you said. But now one of the things, Liz, I know you said that she wasn't political, but lawmakers are political creatures, right? Talk about, do you think the people that are pushing for this generally care about survivors? Or is it a political thing? Maybe both. It could be with some and not others. I'd love each of you to sort of weigh in. Danielle, why don't you start?

38:35Liz Stein:Yeah, I think it varies by person. I think we're having great conversations, you know, and I think a lot of the time people see us in media, but they don't understand that there is a core group of us that are always in these Zoom calls and congressional meetings. And we are telling our stories. And I think it is because these are human stories. We're not, you know, these political pawns. We're not here to be pundits, right? Like we are here to really tell our story and hope that it doesn't happen and perpetuate again.

39:09Jess Michaels:Yeah, I think it's definitely both. And it really depends on who you're talking to. We have some lawmakers that have been just instrumental in really communicating with us, asking us what our thoughts are, what our feelings are. And we have had a lot of really important meetings with lawmakers on both sides of the aisle. We've seen a bit of a shift, and it's not with everyone, but we're now going into Republican lawmakers' offices and they're listening to us. They're sitting down and they're really hearing us, I feel like, for the first time, really understanding what this story is. Because when you peel back what the headlines are and you frame it in such a way that you make people understand that this is a crime and it's a crime of sex trafficking.

40:01Jess Michaels:And we were girls and young women. And when you put it into language that people can understand and relate to, what if this was your daughter? What if this was a friend of yours, your aunt? And when you take all of the emotion, the political emotion out of it, and you ask people to look at it for what it is, then they understand the issue in a very different way. And so what we're starting to see with some Republican lawmakers is we really hear you. We're understanding this issue in a way that we just did not understand it before. We want to support you, but. Or we're behind you 100 % here in this call, but we're not sure how we feel about that publicly.

40:49Jess Michaels:What's the but? But I think that people are reluctant to go up against this administration. I think that that's what the but is. Yeah, it starts with Donald, ends with Trump. You know, we're living in a country right now that is not the America that I grew up in. And the America that I grew up in, we crossed the aisle, we listened to each other, and we stood for what was right despite what our political parties were. And so when you say to someone, are you okay with girls and young women being sexually victimized? Is that all right with you? It changes the tone because you're not saying, do you believe Donald Trump or do you believe Bill Clinton or do you believe any of these men because they're men on both sides of the aisle.

41:42Jess Michaels:So you're not polarizing yourself politically. you're focusing on what you're looking at.

41:48Kara Swisher:What the actual thing was. Absolutely.

41:50Jess Michaels:And how, you know, we wouldn't let this happen in our communities. We wouldn't let perpetrators of these crimes go free in our communities. So why are we doing that as a nation? And so dialing back the political emotion here is really important.

42:06Kara Swisher:Absolutely. Go ahead, Jess.

42:07Dani Bensky:Yeah, I do think that it is being used politically. I do think people care about it as well. I do think it's both. And I think there's an opportunity here that politicians are jumping on because this is the one bipartisan issue that has come up in the country in the last 10 years that everyone can agree upon. I mean, we got an act of Congress. It wasn't just Congress that pushed that act through. It was us. It was us advocating in rooms with Republicans, with Democrats to get everyone on the same page. We worked really hard to help get that law passed. And I think that this administration, if you were to ask me where I think the big error that's going to be made is that sexual harm happens in every single school, in every single community, in every single state, and at volumes in this country that this administration doesn't even believe.

43:05Dani Bensky:And so I believe that this issue will sneak up on the administration, that there are many more people that haven't necessarily voiced their opinion about it, even though we have a ton of support on both sides. I think that this administration is going to be shocked.

43:23Kara Swisher:Yeah, of course. We'll be back in a minute.

43:33Kara Swisher:Let's talk a little bit more about how you've been personally navigating the release of the Epstein files. Two congressmen were part of getting these files released, California Democrat Ro Khanna and Kentucky Republican Thomas Massey. Two extraordinarily different people. I have to tell you, I know Ro quite well for many years. I don't know Massey, but certainly couldn't be more different. Talk about, very briefly, who else is helping, would you say, getting accountability? Because accountability is the critical element here, as you all noted. And of course, internationally, the fallout has been even bigger.

44:07Kara Swisher:They're actually doing something about it. We've seen high-profile resignations. Investigations, I assume, will go on. Dan, you said that the U.S., as you noted, didn't feel like it was taken seriously. So who is helping and who is hindering from your point of view? Let's start with Dani.

44:25Liz Stein:Yeah, I think, I mean, the Democratic Women's Caucus has been extraordinary for us. I think there are almost too many to name, but Melanie Stansbury has been amazing on this topic from the very beginning. From the get-go, I was at the House Oversight Committee in September, and there were six of us in that room. And for the first time, I shared my story along with so many others. And she had come to Annie Farmer and I after and just looked us dead in the face and said, this is a cover-up and we're going to fix this. We're going to figure this one out. And I believed her. She's just the most genuine, you know.

44:59Liz Stein:So she's been amazing. But Robert Garcia, I mean, it's like so many to name. And there are Republicans that are, we're in Republican offices all the time. And I think we're having amazing conversations in those Republican offices. You know, we were recently in Kat Kamek's office and we've been, we've spoken to Joni Ernst, right? There are Republicans that we leave feeling like, wow, we were so seen, and then there's really no follow-through. And that feels so frustrating, right? When we were at Kat Kimmich's office, we were talking about, it was the day before the Bondi hearing, and we did a press conference that was hosted by the Democratic Women's Caucus.

45:42Liz Stein:And we said to Kat Kimik, who is the head of the Republican Women's Caucus, can you please talk to your constituents and come and stand with us? Because it's about women. It's not, and not just about women. It's about survivors, right? But in that moment, we were like, can you just talk to your constituents and please, you know, stand in solidarity with us? And the only Republican that showed up was Nancy Mace. And so it's like, where is the disconnect? Where are we not having that sort of just follow through from them? So that feels a little disheartening. But, of course, Thomas Mass has been incredible for us.

46:20Liz Stein:And Nancy Mace has been amazing.

46:22Kara Swisher:I would note Ernst as a sexual assault survivor in Mace also.

46:28Jess Michaels:Liz? You know, I want to touch on something Jeff said earlier about how we were able to get the Epstein Files Transparency Act passed. that was something that no one ever thought that we would ever be able to do and the only way that we were able to do it is because constituents reached out to the representatives and they spoke and that's how our government works so that's how it's supposed to work um right so citizens citizens right you know i think that a lot of people out there might be sitting listening to this story and feeling powerless, not knowing what they can do to help. And really what you can do is you can call your lawmakers and let them know how you feel about this issue because they're in office because of you.

47:16Jess Michaels:Sometimes they don't act that way. No, they don't. But I think that we need to remind ourselves of that right now in our country. Absolutely.

47:25Dani Bensky:100%. Jess? That's actually a complicated question because I'm, though I believe that we are getting as much support as we possibly can from the Democratic Women's Caucus, from people like Robert Garcia, from the rep who invited me to the State of the Union, Representative Walken Shaw, who had the best answer for why, as a guy, he was getting involved in this that I had heard. And he said, look, I've worked a long time in gender-based violence, and what I see often is women doing all of the work. Women shouldering the complete burden of this issue. And he said, I wanted to jump in and I want to support, not because I want to center myself, because I want to lift some of that burden.

48:12Dani Bensky:It was one of the best answers that I had heard. So we do have people that are in there that are really trying. and it's 60, probably over 70 days past the deadline. And I'm kind of like, all right, why aren't we suing Congress? Why hasn't Pam Bondi been impeached? Where are the consequences for them not meeting the deadline? That wasn't when things were supposed to start. That was supposed to be the deadline and there was zero communication about that. So -

48:42Kara Swisher:Well, I think that's the point. Who's going to stop them?

48:44Dani Bensky:Yeah, who's going to stop them? And I think once that line was crossed and nothing happened, I believe that it set a very bad precedent.

48:52Kara Swisher:And I do. This is an administration who crosses lines, then sees nobody stops them, and then just stays there. And that shows the weakness of our government in a lot of ways. So amid all the redactions in the Epstein files, there have been a lot of calls for survivors to name Epstein's co-conspirators. Liz, what do you make of those calls?

49:09Jess Michaels:I think it's important to remember that it's not our job to release names of people. That could put us in a lot of danger physically, danger of legal repercussions. But we have told our lawyers, right? and I think that if these crimes are ever going to be investigated seriously, it needs to be done in collaboration with our attorneys who have this information. It's just, it's such an enormous weight to put on the burden, to put that burden on the shoulders of survivors and it's just, it's impractical and in any other case, We wouldn't be saying, you know, the survivors of these crimes need to name the perpetrators of these crimes publicly.

49:59Jess Michaels:I mean, you know, publicly.

50:00Liz Stein:I mean, we have a Department of Justice for a reason, right? It shouldn't be on the survivors.

50:07Kara Swisher:Yeah, the problem is some of the—there's NDAs involved. There's all kinds of things that—in order to get testimony. But there are what people don't understand. And I think actually the New York Times just did a great piece about the people, the doctors around it, the lawyers around it, the people that enable it. happen. And it's always, you know, we tend to try to isolate Epstein as a single impresario of everything, but there were people helping him, bankers, all kinds of people, which I think are critical to name or to at least understand, people understand.

50:35Dani Bensky:But they are named, they're in the files. And that was the point of the files being unredacted. And yet those names are often being protected. And so what we need is people to start putting pressure on the DOJ rather than pressure on survivors. Like Maria did this in 1996. There have been multiple times that this case should have been investigated, that more arrests should have been made, and it's not for lack of survivors coming forward.

51:02Kara Swisher:Yeah, absolutely. It shouldn't be your burden whatsoever. It should be. And these, you know, these enablers in many ways have gotten off and have been not as damaging as Jeffrey Epstein, but in that same thing. I had one of the people helping this guy who had threatened me when I was in my 20s come up to me at a party when I was very recently, relatively a couple years ago, and said, I hope you can forgive me. And I said, I just can't. And I said, you need to move away from me right now. And they're like, well, forgiveness is really important. I said, I know, but I'm not going to be doing that for you.

51:34Kara Swisher:So good luck. And I said, you're a terror. I said, you scared a 20-year-old girl into, tried to scare into silence and you can fuck all the way off as far as I'm concerned. But never paid, never paid, too, at the same time, which was really disappointing. It was a woman, too, which was just horrible. Let's end by talking about where things go from here and look at the big picture. The crimes committed against you and countless other women have exposed this so-called Epstein class. Many of the richest and most powerful people in the world turned to Epstein for access to women he trafficked, or they turned a blind eye, that's also the case, to his crimes and accepted money and connections are just social.

52:13Kara Swisher:you know, social parties, dinners, and everything else. Danny, broaden this out for us because there's been a lot of comparisons to the Epstein files in the 2008 financial crisis where millions of Americans lost their homes while the banks got bailed out. Like the same idea. Talk about the way the files reveal how power works in this country. Because, you know, I think it's very much linked to a lot of different things. You know, whether the tech moguls taking over things and making decisions for the rest of us, et cetera, or the attempts to make us feel powerless and that some people get theirs and others do not.

52:52Kara Swisher:Dani, why don't you start and then the others can chime in.

52:55Liz Stein:Yeah, I mean, it's always power versus vulnerability, right? It's at the heart of all exploitation. And so when we are these young girls in this country, it's very easy for a powerful person. I think especially if you've had any sort of grooming in your background where you've been groomed to be a people pleaser or groomed to always strive for perfection, it's easy to walk into a trap. And I think that we really need to get to the core of the power structure, you know, because power protects power. And so we have to find a way to, you know, just make sure it's the right people that are at the top.

53:37Kara Swisher:Jess?

53:39Dani Bensky:One of the things that I have noted in the minimal amount of files that I've gone through and what I've read from others online is that this has really permeated every single area of society from the medical industry, the entertainment industry, the arts industry, academia, banking and financing, politics, literally everywhere. And just like Dani said, powerful people are protected. um i i think that that has been a secret and what i hope is that the one of the levels of transparency that happened is that how that is kept secret is revealed because we're seeing it now it's not a secret people are talking about it and i do hope in in one of my areas of hope that is that transparency um the transparency of everything that's come before us like everything that's happened up to now to show those vials is what's going to change that level of secret protection.

54:42Kara Swisher:Instead of people saying, oh, the rich get off kind of stuff.

54:44Jess Michaels:Yeah.

54:45Kara Swisher:Yeah. Liz?

54:46Jess Michaels:We're used to seeing powerful people protect each other. And I think that the only way that we change things that live in darkness is by bringing them out into the light. And I think that now this is on display for everyone to see. You know, I think that 10 years ago, if we talked about what our experiences were, people would have brushed us off and thought that we were crazy. And all of those stigmatizing stereotypes that people throw on us. But now we're seeing it. And so now that we're seeing it right in front of us, what are we going to do about it? We have the chance to change the narrative here.

55:27Jess Michaels:We have a chance to hold people accountable in various ways, whether it's losing their positions of power, whether it's legal repercussions, we have the opportunity to change what this looks like for the future. And I really hope that we take that opportunity and we seize it because we need to change this narrative.

55:50Kara Swisher:100%. I think one of the things my other podcast says is the rich are protected by the law, but not bound by it, and everybody else is bound by the law but not protected by it, which is really absolutely true. And Epstein was very deep into tech. He was around at all these events. I never met him, but he was there, and he was funding things just to insidiously involve himself in academics or technology and tried very hard to get sort of made whole after his first bout with the law where he got off rather easily. So he was trying to reestablish his reputation. And in that vein, every episode we get a question from an outside expert, and yours actually comes from Julie K.

56:36Kara Swisher:Brown, an investigative reporter at the Miami Herald who helped expose the extent of Epstein's crime with her incredibly groundbreaking piece much later about the first conviction. So let's listen to what Julie has to ask you. Hi there, everybody. My question to you is, Donald Trump has frequently said of late that he believes that he has been exonerated as far as these files are concerned. And I was wondering what your thoughts are about him being exonerated. Okay, Jess, then Liz, then Dani.

57:11Dani Bensky:Well, we know that the president speaks in broad gaslighting strokes and throws words out that don't necessarily equate to anything that's actually happening. And so, interestingly, gave no proof of any of that at all. And there is plenty of instances in there. I am one of the survivors, and I think we're on agreement that he is in there enough times he should be testifying, and there should be investigations done. He should be investigated. He's not exonerated. Clearly hasn't been investigated. He's not exonerated. As a matter of fact, we have way more questions than answers now, and he needs to be part of that investigation.

57:57Dani Bensky:Absolutely. Liz?

57:58Jess Michaels:Yeah, in no way has Donald Trump been exonerated by this. We haven't exonerated anyone. And that's why these investigations are so important. Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein really needs to be looked at under a microscope. And he needs to be questioned just like any other one else. Anyone else is being questioned right now about what he knows about Jeffrey Epstein's crimes.

58:25Kara Swisher:Right. Absolutely. Everyone deserves a right to be investigated properly so that they can be exonerated if they are in fact not guilty. Dani?

58:34Liz Stein:Yeah, everything that everybody already said. But I mean, it has to move through a process. It has to move through a legal channel. So this idea of being exonerated, we would love for him to go and be investigated and move through a legal process. Do I think that he'll be exonerated? I don't know. So, but, you know, I think that we really need to see, we've been saying we need to see the investigations, but we also need to stop putting survivors in places where, you know, I think part of this conversation of exoneration came up when many of us were in a room and they said, raise your hand if Donald Trump has ever done anything to you.

59:12Liz Stein:And it's like the safety of that is beyond lacking. And of course, nobody in their right mind is going to raise their hand in a situation like that. That's why we need the files released and investigated. So, yeah, no, nobody's been exonerated.

59:29Kara Swisher:Nobody's been exonerated. That's absolutely true. It hasn't been properly investigated. The three of you, speaking of which, have been advocating for the passage of Virginia's law. This is a proposed legislation named after another Epstein survivor, perhaps the most famous, Virginia Giuffre. If passed, it would lift the statute of limitations on civil sex abuse cases. This is a critical thing in the case I testified in, and it was too long for the person I was testifying for, and I couldn't believe it. I was shocked by this. Why does it have a statute of limitations? And I didn't know this. I was flummoxed as to why it was.

1:00:04Kara Swisher:Liz, talk about the legislation, why it's important, and what else you'd like to see from Congress.

1:00:08Jess Michaels:This is such an important law because the way that your brain processes sexual trauma, it can take you decades to fully unfold what happened to you. And, you know, someone's disclosure can't operate on a legislative timeline. And so a lot of times we see people who were exploited in their teens and their 20s not understanding what happened to them until their 40s or 50s. And by that time, it's too late. And it's not that the crime didn't happen. It's that the law had the time had run in law. And so we've seen this approach in states. We've seen New York, the Adult Survivors Act, which opened a one-year look-back period for anyone who'd experienced sexual assault.

1:00:57Jess Michaels:So the importance of Virginia's law is that it would open that up on a federal level. And I think that there's no better way to honor the memory of Virginia Roberts-Dufresne than to pass this law.

1:01:11Kara Swisher:Let me move on to another one. Jess, you told Katie Kirk that you think Congress needs to call more people in to testify. You're just noting that anyone who lost their job over the use of the files or who resigned and whose names appeared in the files multiple times and in very significant ways. The Clintons recently testified. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick has said he's willing to. The House Oversight Committee just voted to subpoena Bondi over the Justice Department's handling the case. Bill Gates and Leon Black have also been asked to testify. What happens next if this happens? And, you know, most people feel President Trump should be called to testify about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

1:01:45Kara Swisher:What do you think happens next, Jess?

1:01:48Dani Bensky:My personal hope is that there is enough information from these testimonies to prove that a full-blown investigation needs to happen. And hopefully— Special counsel or something like that. Yes, yes. Yes, and that survivors will be able to come in and give testimony because many of us feel like we had information that was never, ever listened to by the FBI. And so there's been these, you know, so-called investigations, but we have no idea because even the investigation notes were in the files. What I'm hoping is that the testimonies will make way for, yes, it's clear, we need to do some thorough investigations and that needs to start now.

1:02:28Kara Swisher:So have any of you spoken to federal investigators about ongoing investigations?

1:02:32Liz Stein:Or no? Nope. Not since, you know, 20, what was that, 2019 when they came to my house. So they're not investigating? No.

1:02:41Dani Bensky:I mean, Pam Bondi said in the hearing, supposedly there are ongoing investigations on her desk right now, but, you know. You've not gotten a call?

1:02:51Kara Swisher:No. In other words, no.

1:02:53Liz Stein:No, I said, what are those investigations? You know, when she said that there are active investigations, okay, great. Is that why you're holding certain files? Then what are they and why? So we have so many questions. So to be clear, none of you have been called by federal investigators?

1:03:08Jess Michaels:No. No. Okay.

1:03:10Kara Swisher:All of you have made advocacy a huge part and it's incredibly brave. You've lobbied hard for the passage of the Epstein Files Transparency Act. You've been meeting with lawmakers, pushing for Virginia's Law, etc. et cetera. Jess, you released an app to help people navigate the days and weeks after someone reveals they've been sexually assaulted, like a first aid kit, as you noted. Liz, you're an expert on human trafficking, and you've helped bring Epstein survivors together for the first time. Dani, you've done a whole bunch of things with kids and trying to get people to be safe and figure things out.

1:03:39Kara Swisher:Talk about how advocacy has helped you come to terms with this abuse and help you heal. It's a very heroic thing to do. I hope you all understand that.

1:03:47Liz Stein:Thank you for saying that. Yeah. I think it's so funny when people are like, oh, it's very courageous. And Annie Farmer said it best. It's like you're just walking, you're putting one foot in front of the other, and you just keep putting the feet in front of the other. It just feels like the next thing to do. And a lot of this does come from, for me. That is heroic, just so you know. Thank you for saying that. But, you know, it was, it's, I watched Virginia Jew Free turn shame into power. And I knew that I wanted to be able to do that for, like, for her and for survivors. And I just felt like, you know, the laws need to change.

1:04:26Liz Stein:I mean, there are so many things. It's the rabbit hole. Once you start, it's like, or not even the rabbit hole, it's like cleaning your house, right? It's like you move one thing and then you're like, oh gosh, now I have to like Windex. Now I have to, you know, and it just keeps building because it's like, oh, well, okay, we did the Transparency Act. We got a law passed. Like, that's incredible. And then we're like, we need to change statute of limitations. Like that is the next step, right? Because there shouldn't be a time limit on justice. I mean, I'm almost 40 now and I'm just now coming to terms of being able to handle my own abuse and look back and actually see what happened to me, you know?

1:05:00Liz Stein:So it's just crucial that we do this. And so it's just having that belief and knowing that you have to do something about it.

1:05:07Kara Swisher:Right. Absolutely. Jess?

1:05:08Dani Bensky:I was talking with my therapist recently about, you know, because she was so proud of me. And she's like, and your grand therapist is really proud of you. You know, it takes a lot of courage. And I told her, I can't really feel that. I can't feel it. And she goes, that's because you just are doing the thing that's right for you. and for me I feel like like Liz I was a child sexual abuse survivor then came Epstein to thwart the amount of healing that I had already gone through and I just can't see myself doing anything else it's the right thing to do and all of the people that came before me that helped me be able to get to here before I could even speak the words.

1:05:58Dani Bensky:I remember how much it made a difference for me. And so I think what I'm doing is what other people did for me is all I'm doing is taking my hand, reaching down to the person behind me and giving them a pull up. And that's how we all heal. And that's how we stop being silent. And that's how we make cultural change.

1:06:16Kara Swisher:Absolutely. Absolutely. Liz, why don't you finish up?

1:06:18Jess Michaels:For me, I also, when people say that I'm brave, I don't see that or feel that necessarily. I can't imagine doing anything else. And really what fuels me in doing this work is I see my six-year-old self and I see myself throughout the different ages that I couldn't speak and that I didn't have anyone to talk to. and it would be irresponsible of me to have this position and to not use it so that others did not feel alone in this because if I could go back and tell myself anything it would be to tell someone and if they don't listen tell someone else and just keep telling until people listen to you and even if you feel like they don't be proud of yourself because you at least were able to sit in your uncomfortable truth when other people weren't.

1:07:12Jess Michaels:And that's really what fuels me doing this advocacy, being the person that I wish was there for me when I needed them most.

1:07:19Kara Swisher:Which is critically important to think about yourself because people don't mourn themselves in previous versions of themselves. Let me then ask.

1:07:28Jess Michaels:Can I just add one thing? We've talked about how this trauma is overwhelming and how it impacted our lives negatively, but I just want to leave people with, when you experience trauma, it's possible to recover from trauma. And so you're looking at three women here who've done a lot of work on ourselves and really invested time and energy into finding who we were before all of this happened. And that's possible for all survivors of sexual assault.

1:07:58Kara Swisher:Absolutely. 100%. It doesn't have to completely overwhelm you. It can. It absolutely can.

1:08:04Liz Stein:I would also love to add that community is hugely important. And it was underrated. I siloed myself. I was in a pretty horrible relationship for quite some time after my abuse with Jeffrey. And I siloed myself on purpose because I felt like I could never connect to people the way I had before abuse. And finding, you know, we have the Survivor Sisters and truly finding this incredible group of people and knowing that there's something that is unsaid, that you just understand the depth of darkness and you're doing something actively to change it. So to be able to work on it, it's like the best group project we possibly can ever have, right?

1:08:48Liz Stein:Right, right. Because it is like where the support that you feel from one another is everything and it changes everything for me. I think that like when I wake up in the morning and I listen to any one of these women talk, it's like, okay, Dani, get up. You can do this too. You got to keep going, right? And so just finding your community and finding those spaces to be able to just speak about the unspeakable, it's really important.

1:09:14Kara Swisher:Absolutely. Can I ask one last final question? If you don't like the word brave or courageous or heroic or whatever, I want you each to think of one word to describe yourself right now. One word. Who wants to start? I want to use strong. Okay, strong. Because you are.

1:09:31Jess Michaels:Yeah, but I didn't always feel that way. You know, how often as women do we quiet those voices inside of us that is telling us who we are and we're listening to what other people are saying. And so the strength was definitely always in me. It's just, yeah. Great word. Great word.

1:09:53Dani Bensky:Tenacious. because I would say I don't quit. You know, I get an A in therapy. Good job. Whatever I attempt to do, I'm like, I just, I don't quit. And so I would say I'm tenacious. Excellent work.

1:10:13Liz Stein:I think for me, it's honest, because I couldn't be honest with myself every time I looked in the mirror for so long. I didn't, it just always felt like that imposter syndrome of even being alive because I knew that this abuse had happened and it was tucked away in the darkest parts of myself. So I think that every day this has been a pursuit of real honesty for me.

1:10:35Kara Swisher:This is great. I would call you all inevitable. Eventually. We hope you're right. I am right. I hope so. We're holding you to it. It's just because you don't know how the story is going to end that you feel hopeless, but it's not the case. It's inevitable. I love that word. Thank you. Anyway, I really appreciate it. Danny, Jess, and Liz, thank you so much. Thank you, Cara. Thank you. Thank you, Cara.

1:11:02Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester and Madeline LaPlante-Duby. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.