The Bulwark’s Sarah Longwell on How Democrats Can Defeat MAGA for Good

20:51hey what's up guys it's babish and on this week's episode of in the booth i'm joined by chef cookbook author and food network legend alex guarnichele we're talking about Chopped the Hamptons and what it takes to make a cry-worthy pasta you can listen now wherever you get your podcasts

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22:57Kara Swisher:So, as I know, nearly every election is one along the margins, is something you talk about in the book, and you identify a handful of distinct groups whom you call the persuadable electorate. But I want to talk about the double haters. These are people who distrust both parties, but say they're also, you said they're the most gettable. Why was Trump the lesser of two evils for many during the 2024 election? And cynicism is always part of politics. It always is. And you hear a lot of people talk that way or I'm zoning out. I'm not listening to news and things like that. So talk about this dissatisfaction and how you turn it into, you know, turn that frown upside down kind of thing.

23:36You know, I always say that if we had a drinking game in the focus groups and we took a shot every time somebody said lesser of two evils, we'd be dead every time. Because the vast majority of American voters are not that psyched about either political party. and they are deeply cynical. And this is one of the, that cynicism really plays to Trump. He wins that jump ball oftentimes because when, if you think both political parties are corrupt, the scale of his corruption doesn't land because you're like, wow, they're all corrupt. So they're all bad people. They're all sex pests. If you think they're all like that and you're a double hater, then you're like, the only thing I care about is like, is this person going to make the economy better?

24:20And the reason that Trump won was because, and this, one of the, I'll talk about something else that knocked me off my feet very early in my focus group endeavors was, I would ask people, people started bringing up The Apprentice. How many of you watched The Apprentice? I watched every episode. How many of you watched The Apprentice? Seriously. All right, I'm embarrassed for you, but that's fine. That's fine. I watched every single episode. I'm embarrassed for you, too. Why? It was a great show. Did you watch that show and you thought, boy, this is a compelling guy. I want to sit down and hang out with him.

24:55Kara Swisher:No, no, no, no. But the reason now why I'm extraordinarily wise is the last season was a fucking disaster. And that's where we are. We're in the last season. I'm not deep on The Apprentice. I like wrestling. I like that kind of stuff. The thing that stunned me was in the focus groups, they'd all watch The Apprentice, all these Republican focus groups. And so they had a parasocial relationship with Donald Trump that preceded his relationship with politics. And they got to see, he was firing Gilbert Godfrey on a soundstage and everybody's like, that's a good businessman right there. Like Andrew Dice Clay, he told him to get the hell out.

25:33That's business in America. And so people think of Trump as a good businessman, and even worse, because his first, and I heard this just a million times, everybody thought his first term was a success. They forget the part where a million people died from COVID, but they remember the pre-COVID economy as really strong. And so I would just hear person after person say, I'm going to turn off the news. He's a buffoon. I'm not going to listen to it. I'm just going to enjoy his economy. And that's why he won that jump ball. and then there's the deficiencies of his opponents which is a different story because you know when you talk about the parasocial relationship one of Kamala Harris's biggest deficiencies and I went back and listened to all my Kamala focus groups after she lost and I also did a bunch of ones with people who had not turned out to vote and I just heard the same thing over and over again I had no idea who she was I didn't know what she stood for I just didn't even know is she a liberal it's funny because there's this fight among elites did she lose because she was too moderate and she ran as a moderate and she ran with Liz Cheney or did she lose because she was a California progressive and she was too progressive?

26:37I'm like, I don't know. These voters were like, I don't even know anything about her. I don't know what she's like. And so her inability, I think, to connect with people and his ability to be so durable with people ultimately

26:49Kara Swisher:things take this way. I think the parasocial thing is absolutely right. When he first showed up, a lot of Washington reporters is at a dinner party and they're like, oh, he's a joke. I'm like, no, no. No, no, no. It's because you were watching The Apprentice. I was watching The Apprentice. I didn't want to vote for him. I literally said, if a San Francisco lesbian finds him vaguely appealing, there's a problem. Because he's a terrible, horrible con man. So who are the critical groups? The double haters? Who else? Are you talking about the swing voters? All the different swing voters? So there's a bunch.

27:17And I do six. It's a chapter called Anatomy of a Swing Voter. And I do my best to come up with a heuristic for who these people are. But it's Hispanic voters. If I can do all six right now, I'll be shocked. It's young voters. And young voters, it's not that they're swingy. it's that they're unformed, right? Like there's a lot of people right now, young voters who thought he was a vibe, you know? And now that there's a war in Iran and their lives aren't getting better and they can't afford houses or rent, he's much less of a vibe to them, right? And so now Trump is underwater with young people.

27:48Similarly, Hispanics, another swingier group, they've been moving right. They have now moved back. It's one of the reasons Texas is in play right now is because Hispanics, the bottom has dropped out for Trump with Hispanics. Then there's the double haters. Then there's the people who switch sides, right? So there's the people like me who are like the college-educated suburban voters. But this is actually really important for anybody who thinks that it is just easy-peasy to beat Donald Trump. Why is Donald Trump winning? Democrats now have people like me, lucky you guys, that college-educated suburban voters.

28:23And we're great in the midterm, man. We will always show up. Donald Trump and Republicans have taken over. They've built a multiracial working class coalition, but they win white working class voters. And the median voter in this country is a 55-year-old white guy without a college degree. There are more of those voters than there are the college-educated suburban voters. And that is one of the reasons that in the general elections, which are very different than the midterms, Republicans have had, because of Trump, a structural advantage.

28:53Kara Swisher:Yeah. So talk a little bit about the media space because you know these voters do tend to vote on vibes as you said and I think that was rise the vibes voter yeah so um this gets in the ways the right dominates a lot of this or has it's not going as well now because they're all fighting with each other which is a pleasure to watch um but right-wing podcasts still you know when we look at the numbers for ours we're like a sandwich between megan kelly and mark levin and I'm like oh you know and dan bongino's wandering somewhere below us. And so how do you, but they're changing. It's changing. There's, you've got Hassan Piker, you've got Crooked, and I would say yours is sort of more liberal, let's just say, than those.

29:34Kara Swisher:I'm sorry, I'm what? You're more liberal than those. So talk about that. What's the key to winning those voters? I mean, how is that going in the information space? Because you've built a thriving media business with a distinct point of view at the bulwark. So talk a little bit about reaching them that way. Does that work? I think it does. I think the podcasts and that whole new independent media space works rather well. Yeah, to say what we do is to basically ask me to explain the entire book. And I'm going to actually try and give you as short a version as I can, which is this. Donald Trump is going to not be president in two years and a few months, right?

30:24Now, you might be like, well, JVL, if he was sitting right here, he would tell you that guy's not going anywhere. But like, let's just assume that whether for actuarial reasons or for constitutional reasons, 2028 is the end of Trump. What is the Republican Party post-Trump? They have built an entire political party around one guy. The Republican Party is going to be in its weakest state that it has been in a decade in 2028. As you go into those. OK, well, that's good. That's the good part. The question is, can the Democratic Party. There's only two of them, guys. There's only two. Can the Democratic Party build a coalition that is big enough to dominate a post-Trump Republican Party that is fractured between the MAGA establishment and the America First coalition?

31:23You got your Tucker, you got your Marjorie Taylor Greene on one side, you got your Marco Rubio and your, God, I don't know, Pete Heggseth. How many of them are going to run? Sean Duffy is probably going to run. Okay. Oh, man. They're going to be weak, though. Donald Trump's not going to be there to turn it out. So Democrats have this historic opportunity. I wrote the book because I don't think people realize that there is a chance to go overwhelm what is happening right now. But it requires building a new media ecosystem. The Republican Party, I was there when they did it. They said, hey, the mainstream media shuts us out.

31:56And so they whined about it a bunch and they worked the refs, but they also built their own competing media ecosystem. The Democrats have to do the same thing and not just the far left, because that comes with its own challenges. But like the center left to the entire spectrum, I'm pro all of it. They've got, I can't just keep relying on mainstream media

32:14Kara Swisher:because the mainstream media. I'll push back. I think there's a lot of stuff going on. There's tons and tons of shows like this now that are starting to really gain numbers and popularity. And you may not like Hassan Piker, but my son sure does. Like it doesn't really matter. And he's accepting the messages of Medicare for all. That's what attracts him. I mean, That would be a very interesting focus group because the stuff they want is Medicare for all, affordable housing. Those things resonate and resonate. But the point is, look, it's not even my, why do we have to, every time someone says Hassan Piker to me, I'm going to say, just talk about Epstein instead.

32:50Instead of fighting about Hassan Piker, please talk about Jeffrey Epstein. You're right. You're 100 % right.

32:59Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

33:04Thank you.

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35:38Hi, I'm Bella Freud.

35:40Kara Swisher:Each week on Fashion Neurosis, I invite guests from the world of fashion, art, film, music, sport and literature to lie on my couch and explore the connection between identity and fashion. This week on Fashion Neurosis, I welcome Charlie XCX. To be childlike as an adult, I think, takes a lot of bravery because there's always this fear of being embarrassed, I suppose. You also have to kind of like be willing to completely fall on your face all the time. Pursuing that childlikeness can sometimes really open you up to ideas that maybe you would feel too embarrassed to have if you weren't doing that.

36:26Kara Swisher:And I think that's quite a scary thing, but a really beautiful thing. Find Fashion Neurosis on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Every episode we get a question from an outside expert speaking of Republicans who are trying to make that shift. And there was a big story about him in The New York Times today. Let's listen. Hi, Sarah. Steve Hilton here running for governor of California. Congratulations on the book. Here's what I'd love you to answer. This populism thing has been going on for at least a decade now. You saw it really arise 2015, 2016 on the right and the left with Trump and Bernie Sanders and that whole movement and of course Brexit in the UK.

37:08Kara Swisher:And it's a decade later. And still the things that gave rise to the populism, working class people pissed off about their opportunities in life, all those complaints that really made the populist movement take off, they're still there. why hasn't anyone figured out whether that's a conservative government a socialist government anywhere in the world to be honest why hasn't anyone figured out answers to the problems that actually promoted the rise of populism in the first place that was actually a pretty good question i know he's smart i'm sorry to tell you how was he i asked him a question on your show yeah you did was his answer good why don't you listen to the show it was uh he's right he's right And this is what the book is about, ultimately.

37:56Where does the populist anger come from? It comes from the fact that people have pitchfork at the ready anger over the fact that they think it used to be called income inequality, but now that they think there is so much money with these tech oligarchs and with billionaires, that's where that anger comes from. And people feel like they're not getting their share of things. They feel like working class voters are getting the raw end of the stick. Now, the Republicans are not addressing the material economic side of that, but they are addressing the social angst part of that, right? They know how to make it about immigrants and immigration.

38:31And frankly, one of the reasons that right-wing parties were winning all over the globe is because of immigration, is because mass migration rose and people started crossing borders. It doesn't matter whether we like it or not. The point is that was the backlash from a lot of those voters. And I say this, too, about Trump, and I'd say it about Mamdani. Trump never built his wall. When he ran in 2016, he talked about the wall all the time. It was the centerpiece of his campaign. Just a wall. He was going to build a wall. We were all like, what do you mean you're going to build a wall? Voters didn't care if he built a wall.

39:07What they wanted was somebody who said they were going to take immigration and border security seriously. That is what he did. Mamdani's does this in a different way. I think Mondani's policies, just like the wall, like I'm going to we're just going to lower prices by having like socialist grocery stores or whatever. These are dumb ideas. These are not going to work and they're bad ideas. But he's taking affordability seriously. What voters hear is you understand that my rent is too high. You understand I can't afford to live in this city and you're going to try to do something about it. And so I do think that if a party could both be normal on the social stuff, which is part of what I'm begging Democrats to do, Just be a little more normal and not even on exactly their position, although they could change a few things about their positions, but primarily about emphasis.

39:51Democrats should spend 70 percent of every word coming out of their mouth talking about the material well-being of voters. What voters want to know is, are you going to make my health care cheaper? Am I going to be able to afford groceries? Is my gas going to be affordable? Do I have upward mobility? Do I have a job? Am I going to get a raise at that job? That's all voters. And will AI take my job? And will AI take my job, right?

40:16Kara Swisher:And what will you do about it? Yeah, I agree with you on that. But there is, you know, an element of what he was saying is that actual delivery of services, talking about getting people, things like that. I think one of the reasons Mamdani feels effective is he plowed the snow, fixed the basketball. He starts to look like he's... Mamdani is so funny to me because I was sort of like, ugh, you know, about Mamdani at first. And now he's like doing licensing reform. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm listening, Mamdani. Are we doing licensing reform? Hell yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's doing things for people.

40:48I think people feel like... Do you know what? So, John, I'm sorry to get all... That's okay. I can see that. Yeah, I know. I'm very excitable. Yeah, we come back. Ossoff, I'm doing a bunch of focus groups on Ossoff, and I'm thinking they're going to love his soaring rhetoric and how handsome he is.

41:05Kara Swisher:The hot manta thing, yeah. And they're all like constituent services. You can always get somebody on the phone at his office. And I'm like, when was the last time you heard people really talking about constituent services? It matters to people, right? Do they feel like you are responsive to them? It's actually not rocket science. So much of what we talk about is so stupid and not relevant to people's lives. what they really want is like, is someone going to pick up the phone and say like, yeah, I'm going to help you out with that? Yeah, right. Or talk about things that matter to voters. So that gets us the pro-democracy movement needs to do to win elections and defeat MAGA permanently.

41:37Kara Swisher:I think you're right. The lineup behind Trump is pretty weak sauce. You know, they're all sort of suck-ups and sycophants and charmless, or one or the other. And then there's Ted Cruz. You know my favorite - Oh my God, did you see that Ted Cruz is right now number one on the New York Times bestseller list? Is he? Not that I'm looking for any reason, but it is Ted Cruz is the number one book. And it's about Clarence Thomas. Go buy 10 of my books so I can knock him off. That's it. Just kidding. I'm just kidding. Yeah. Everyone's going to love four years of Ted Cruz. I don't think so. So your first step is to make Trump the most unpopular president in U.S.

42:20Kara Swisher:history. your goal is to drive down his favorability numbers into the 20s. Democrats are currently getting a lot of help from Trump on that front. Why is that important? And what do Democrats need to do they aren't doing to make that happen? Obviously, Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. All right, let's go. This is when we talk about the bush line. You look like you're about to build a shelf. That's a very... I drill. I've got... Yeah. This is what we do. We get Trump below the bush line.

42:54Bush left office. You guys all know. You listen to me. What'd you say? Yeah, that's right. That's a deep cut right there. You're listening to Tim. Richard Nixon, the dick line as Tim calls it. That's not a swear. It's a person. You know, you get Trump in the 20s. Here's what it does. Number one, the lower Trump is right now going into the 2026 midterms, the better Democrats will do, number one, because there's going to be a big enthusiasm gap going into 2026. But next, I want Trump to be an albatross around the necks of everybody who runs in his wake, right? They're going to be Trump administration types.

43:31You want all of them to have to wear like a boulder around their ankles, this idea that they're dragging the Trump administration record with them. And also, you never want another Trump coming near this. They're going to talk about Donald Trump Jr. and everybody else. But you want people to look back and say, oh, yeah, I didn't vote for that guy. I had nothing to do with Trump. Those were bad times. I wasn't part of it. And for everybody to think it was a mistake. That's the Bush line.

43:57Kara Swisher:And then what was the next part of the question? What are the things you do? You know, you want to make him deeply unpopular. How do you... He's already unpopular. Yeah, he's doing... That's right. He's doing a lot of it himself. But here's something I do. Okay, so I don't know if you saw Speaker Jeffries the other day was doing a call with Jared Kushner.

44:16so so you know you can do that yeah i think that's probably doable i i what i would like is for democrats to you listen to john ossoff right now i am a little obsessed with john ossoff's messaging um and and his tight shirts uh wow he looks okay even for me he's got me You talk about. Yeah. He's wearing those pants, man. He looks like a pre-brainworm Kennedy. Okay, we're moving on. Move along. But his communications. So what is he out there doing? He's out there talking about Trump's corruption. Why is Hakeem Jeffries not talking every day about the level of corruption we're seeing? Why is... Like, we really do...

44:59I have been an operative on both the Republican side and on the Democrat side. There's not that many people. And when I got to the Democrats, I went, oh, no, this is what you guys do. It's all conference calls and icebreakers. And sometimes people are knitting and people don't want to go into the office ever or put on pants and they want a four day work week. And I'm like, you don't get to defeat authoritarians. Like these guys are over here being straight up mercenaries and you want Fridays off. Like that is not if democracy is at stake. This is my big thing with this is my big thing for Democrats.

45:31Do you know why they're so unpopular right now? Because they've spent the last 10 years telling us democracy is at stake. Donald Trump's going to end democracy. I believe that Donald Trump's an existential threat to democracy. So it would be nice if the other political party would act like it, like it's a threat to democracy. In that vein, there's a lot of energy on the left.

45:53Kara Swisher:There is. They feel more muscular. I mean, you know, there is, of course, this moderate versus progressive frame. And you're right. Everyone should just say Epstein all the time instead of any, and not Hassan Piger. But talk a little bit about this if that's where the energy is how do you bottle it for the rest of the party yeah I'm not sure look I actually I don't believe that and I reject in the whole book I pre-butt right up front that this is a book about whether the democratic party needs to be more moderate or more progressive this is not a book about Sarah Longwell's personal politics if you left it up to me we'd all just be like libertarians and you'd get all your drugs and all your gay marriages, but also we'd be fiscally responsible and paying down the debt.

46:34And yeah, that's right. Exactly. Yeah. Sexy. Go ahead. Yeah. But I'm not, you know, Republicans tried to sell people on this, some version of this and this, you know, I don't, it's enough for a dinner party. I'm not sure it's enough for a political party, but I do think that the way that you build that energy is it doesn't right now, who are the best communicators? It is Ossoff. It's Pete Buttigieg. It's AOC. It's Momdani. Well, they don't all share like and this is what I would like to see Democrats do. I think that this idea that you have to fight each other or punch left or that it has to be this factional fight.

47:09Like I reject that. Even if I don't like Hassan Piker, I don't think we should talk about Hassan Piker. Like, right. I mean, I can't. I talked about him one time because I was like, Tim, I think your assessment of Hassan is wrong. And suddenly, I don't know, I guess maybe I started it. I'm not sure. but now everybody's talking about this guy. And I'm like, hold on. He may have some bad ideas, some good ideas, but also have you looked at the president of the United States lately? This is like one guy on a Twitch stream, like half the time talking about, I don't know, his dog and his collar or whatever.

47:42And the authoritarians are inside the gate. And I would like people to be able to focus a little bit on the actual problem that we're dealing with.

47:49Kara Swisher:So one of the things you say, one Democrat in that vein who should not run for president is former Vice President Kamala Harris and she cannot speak with clarion directness. You were talking about that energy. How do you make this case to her supporters? She has a lot of them. She's pretty high up in the polls. It's name ID, I think. Well, she ran for president too. So talk about what it has to look like. And obviously you like Ossoff, but if you could build the perfect Democratic candidate right now. I mean, Ossoff's not far off. Like somebody who I know, sorry, sorry. But look, I love me. I love Pete and I love Ossoff.

48:28These are my personal things. But I also let me tell you about AOC. So let's just talk about AOC for one second. So she and I probably don't share a lot of politics, but I think that AOC is a decent human being. Like she seems like a very nice, kind person whose heart is in the right place. And so do I think that she would make like the best president ever? I don't know. Do I think that she's better than J.D. Vance and the cynical bullshit that's being done by Republicans? I do. And I also think I've watched her grow in the office, which has been sort of nice to watch. I think she's been growing into herself.

48:59As a result, some people on the far left don't like her as much as they once did. But actually, my favorite thing, and I talk about this later in the book, and I talk about it in terms of the bulwark. A lot of you guys are bulwark community. Yeah, right.

49:14One of the deepest lessons that I've taken from building the bulwark and finding this community is that to build a community, you have to be a community, right? And I think that the reason that people were attracted to the bulwark is that Tim, JVL, and I and some of the other people at the bulwark, like, we argue with each other. We don't always agree, but we have honest conversations about where we stand. And we treat each other kind and we treat each other with a lot of love. What if Democrats were campaigning together? What if they were holding big events where they sat? Republicans are doing this all the time at these weird America Fest or whatever.

49:50They have all of the Republicans there. They've got different opinions, but they show up as one entity. Democrats don't do that. And I would like Democrats to try to show people that they can be a community and hold. Democrats love the phrase hold space. I hadn't even heard this. What is holding space? How do we hold some space for like all of the Democrats to figure out how to exist together? Right. And to show up and say, yeah, we're all part of the same team, even though we disagree and we can have those disagreements as opposed to this need to just like punch left or punch right.

50:22Kara Swisher:You're as you argue in the book, a candidate that can show the case for order and compassion of getting along. That's specifically around immigration. Look, I think that one of the things that Democrats are going to have. There's only a few places where I think on potluck, and this again, not exactly my preferred policies, but listening to voters, voters cannot access compassion around things like criminal justice reform or immigration if they feel unsafe. And what Donald Trump did, his big trick was to say, they're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists. Cats and dogs. And some of them are good people, right?

51:01They're eating the cats and the dogs. that creates for people a sense that they are not safe, that they are under threat. And when people feel under threat, they can't access that compassion. And so I do think Democrats are going to have to say to people, we are going to keep you safe. We are going to make sure that the border is not just open and anybody can come across. Because voters, actually, I don't hear most voters, lots of Trump voters, they're like, I'm glad that immigrants are coming. They're like, my grandparents were immigrants. I'm married to an immigrant, whatever. And what they say is, I want people to come the right way.

51:36Now, to be fair, just about every American has no idea what that means because they never had to come into this country. They got golden ticket. They were born here. But their sense of fairness is, well, there's a line somewhere. And I think people should wait in it.

51:50Kara Swisher:Not this way. I hear a lot of with my people I know that are Trump voters. I don't like this way. This way is not the right way. There is a real, I often go crazy when people say centrist. I don't even know what that means. Like, what is it? It's like a mushy word that doesn't mean anything. And nobody. Well, it's it's Hakeem Jeffries, actually, or Chuck Schumer. You just end up with blah. Yeah, exactly. It's boo. OK, Democrats have momentum going into the midterms. It's pretty clear so far. But there are some scary headwinds. There's gerrymandering, which will help. It's going to help Republicans.

52:23Kara Swisher:More concerns with Trump's threats to mail-in voting. He's trying to bring it to the Supreme Court. What should the Democrats be doing right now? They've been very aggressive in courts. They have been very aggressive pushing back on the postal stuff and the Kennedy Center. Everything he does, they push back. But it's a defense. It's a defense kind of thing. And the Republicans are endlessly aggressive. What are you most worried about going into the midterms? You know, especially with this mail-in voting, I just think that Trump, look, Trump isn't trying to do apps. He's not trying to do anything to help Republicans actually politically, right?

52:57He's basically sending them in in the worst possible environment. He's unpopular. His agenda's unpopular. So what does he have left to figure out how to keep Democrats from practicing any oversight over him, which he obviously doesn't want? The mail-in ballots isn't really about ending mail-in ballots. It's too late. I can't go through the entire case and why it's relevant, but go listen to my episode of the Illegal News, either with George Conway or Andrew Weissman. We all talked about this on both the pods. they're trying to create chaos right they're trying to create a postal system chaos so that he can cast doubt on the election results once they happen like we've seen this playbook we all know what's happening the thing that i worry about the most honestly is that they get sort of desperate and desperate people backed into a corner do weird things and it's like we already have you guys live here you see the national guard everywhere um and you know if they send ice to places they send the national guard now the national guard look like they're all like very nice teenagers that just stand in groups and eat ice cream.

53:58Like they're not trying to mess with anybody, but the ice sending ice into people's, you know, to try and they'll say it's about, we're making sure illegals aren't voting, but really it's just an intimidation tactic. Although I, again, I think that Democrats, like ask yourself, would you crawl over broken glass to vote in this midterm election? I do think that that is how. I also think I've been in a lot of

54:22Kara Swisher:mayors and governors, and they're all going to have their own police force. They seem very intent on, even in Wyoming, they weren't happy about it. Like they don't, they aren't happy about disenfranchising their vote. And I got a lot of friends who work in voting. Some of them are here tonight. And they are, they're on top of this. They all know what Trump is going to try and do. So the last question, for a decade now, voters have been told that Trump's hold on American politics is slipping only to have him come back. And for Democrats, that's been very psychologically demoralizing. You think this moment is different.

54:53Kara Swisher:I do too, having watched All the Apprentices, unlike you, because you're obsessed with John Ossoff. Why do you think this moment is different? Again, going back to sort of the actuarial realities as well as the constitutional ones. That's the cankle theory, but go ahead. I just mean like Trump, look, I would feel differently if Trump was 55, right? If Trump was 55, I would think I would be much more worried than I am. And already, he is, like, very weird now. Like, he's always been weird, but, like, he is, I think, not super well. What? The Natalie Harp thing is totally normal. What? That Natalie Harp thing is bananas, right?

55:37And the idea, I think he's psyched that anyone thinks they're sleeping together. That that, they think that's, anyway, sorry, my kids are here. I'm going to just pivot. I do think this moment's different. And I think that part of why I really think it's different is that I believe that because I watched it happen to Republicans, they don't know what to do without Trump. They can't go back to the Paul Ryan limited government, free markets, American leadership in the world because they feel like voters rejected them on that. But they can't be Trump. Trump and so they're looking around for a leader that of what comes next which is why you're getting a bunch of sort of two-bit players like Tucker Carlson and then J.D.

56:20Vance, Marco Rubio like the party already said what it thought about Marco Rubio and I also think there is an exhaustion finally but I do think look I think that here's the I'll say this though and this is why I do think Democrats still need to I talk to disaffected Trump voters all the time they are still very leery of Democrats, right? Democrats are still having trouble convincing the majority of Americans that they are going to be better stewards than this absolute clown show. And I think that it requires some introspection on Democrats' part on why that is.

56:54Kara Swisher:Maybe even changing a thing or two. When you think about the election coming up, going into 2028, if you were to pick right now, based on the focus groups and what you've written, the two ideal candidates for the Republicans and Democrat, the presidential candidates, who would you like? Obviously, Ossoff. Creepy. Look, I think an Ossoff peep ticket would crush. But we'll see. It's very, very early. From what you're hearing from voters right now. You know what's interesting about Democratic voters? I know that people don't want like a super long answer, but I will say Democrats are so, this goes back to Kamala, Democrats told themselves that the reason that Kamala lost was because of racism and sexism.

57:39And the inverse of that is that I'll do focus groups of black women and they will be like, I want you to find me the straightest, whitest man right now to run on the Democratic ticket. And I do think that there's something, there's an appetite for that in the Democratic Party. They're like, we can't take any more risks with anything.

57:58Kara Swisher:I've heard it from some women candidates. Yeah, the women candidates are feeling this. And so I do think and I think people are really hesitant about a gay president with Pete. Pete's going to have to get people over this idea that America wouldn't elect a gay president. And I think a lot of Democrats are going to be worried about that. And they're also going to be worried about him with black voters. I think he's working on that. But I think as a ticket or a team, they could go really far. Give me the ticket that you would pick right now. Ossoff-Pete. Ossoff-Pete? Ossoff-Pete. That would be my ticket.

58:29All right. And Republicans? don't make a face their best chance is probably Rubio who would they put maybe Rubio runs with Vance although people don't like Vance people don't like Vance but the Trump family does

58:51Kara Swisher:you heard my famous joke he's the cyber truck of politicians keep it spread it far and wide it's amazing how Trump could be like grabber by the whatever and everybody is like oh that's whatever that's just Trump being Trump J.D. Vance said childless cat ladies and Republican women in these focus groups are like screw that guy yeah you know also they just say things like I don't like his face you know like they don't all right Rubio and uh okay who would be like good that they would actually it's probably it's no no nikki haley is done uh here's the only reason marco rubio is the only reason marco rubio even has a chance is because now he's been memed into a position everybody's like marco ruby is the only competent person in this administration you have to give him every job um i think that it would probably be like him and a woman who's a popular.

59:50Yeah, it's like an America firster. I don't know if it's MTG, but it is an America first wing person. Megyn Kelly. That's a great one. I think I think I think that's real. I think Megyn Kelly is a real one for I do. She has no F's to give. I'm trying hard here. Yeah. And she's just like a full on lunatic now.

1:00:14Kara Swisher:Yeah. She will eat your face. Oh, she tries. She often attacks me and I finally shut her down by saying it's never going to happen, Megan.

1:00:27Kara Swisher:I'm going to have the confidence of Kara Swisher. I know. I mean, definitely not going to happen. Anyway, I really appreciate it. This book is great. Everybody should buy How to Eat an Elephant. They're delicious. Sarah. Thank you so much for your time. And let's be Ted Cruz. Let's be Ted Cruz. Yeah, let's be Ted Cruz. Thank you. All right. Thank you.

1:01:01Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Nishat Korwa, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Madeline LaPlante-Duby, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Special thanks to Eamon Whalen, Lissa Soap, Jim Mackle, and Manola Moreno. And thanks again to Six and I for hosting our conversation. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you are not, I repeat, not arguing with the voters. If not, you're trapped in a Republican triangle of doom. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

1:01:39Kara Swisher:We'll be back on Thursday with more.