The Creators of ‘Hacks’ on Comedy, Creative Partnership and Surviving Hollywood

23:26Kara Swisher:It should be called Jimmy. The whole show should be. I appreciate that. Here's Jimmy. Yeah, I think. I mean, we did. It was funny because we did think, how do we get these two very different people from different generations together? And so it did make sense that this manager who would have inherited someone like Deborah from his father, who was a manager, and this young writer that he discovered and represents, he would be sort of the person to put them together. And so it was a really important part of the inciting incident for the show, for the premise of the show. But as Debra and Ava have helped each other redeem their careers, obviously his role becomes more and more important.

24:09Right. And the entire staff, too. Oh, yes. Yes, that's right.

24:13Kara Swisher:All of them have some aspect to it. Because a lot of, sometimes it's always played by, you know, in Hollywood, people that just say yes or PR people or whatever. But in this case, it's a very, it's almost a family-like, an unusual family, I suppose. It is a bizarro family. And as Debra says to Ava, she doesn't need a yes man. She needs a no woman to ignore. So I do think there's a lot of no people to ignore that surround her. We also, in speaking about Jimmy and Kayla and Randy now, played by Robbie Hoffman, we wanted to also, as you said, it's a portrayal of the entertainment industry, and we wanted to portray this side of the entertainment industry that we felt had been a little bit underexplored, which is people who represent artists and manage them and agent them and actually the version of that.

25:02You know, there's the entourage version, there's that version, but we hadn't really seen, I think, a version of the people that are instrumental to helping artists make their work and getting it out there. And so I think one thing that we're happy about is portraying representatives in the entertainment industry who actually are doing it for the right reasons and not necessarily trying to just profit off of other people's hard work, because there are certainly lots of those.

25:32Kara Swisher:Yeah, absolutely. The entourage version, the ad version. I like how you put that, slip that in there. It's just a different, I think Ari Gold had a whole, Ari Gold and Jimmy Lissack Jr. are just different guys. Let's put it that way. Yes, very much so. They just have a different way of doing business. Yes, although I'm sad to report that Ari Emanuel is exactly like that. Anyway, I have on my phone, I said something on my podcast. I know him really well, and I declined to sign with him. and at one point I said something about him and he just sent me a message on my voicemail. Fuck you, Kara Swisher, fuck you.

26:07Kara Swisher:And by the way, fuck you. And I was like, I just kept it and I replay it. Oh my God. That's iconic. You do need that. I do need to keep it for all eternity. He has very nice siblings though, who are much better than he is. Anyway, every episode we get a question. Well, there's one that's okay. There's one that's fantastic. Every episode we get a question, I'm not going to say which one, from an outside expert. Today, we have two. Here's the first. Hi, guys. George Hahn here, friend of Kara's, writer, podcaster, actor, among other things. And 12 years ago, for a few months before she died, I had the privilege of doing social media for Joan Rivers, writing and creating content for her Instagram and Facebook accounts.

26:50Kara Swisher:Clearly, the character of Debra Vance drew a lot of inspiration from Joan down to the way she looked. Also, like Joan, Deborah is a highly successful woman in a real boys' club, a real baller, if you will, and a virtual industry unto herself. Now, Joan famously broke ground as a late-night host, only to have the NBC door slammed on her by Johnny Carson after she got her own show on Fox, even though it was short-lived. Decades later, Joan remains one of the only female hosts of her own late-night network talk show. I think it was a wound that never fully healed. Deborah Vance carries a similar wound.

27:35Kara Swisher:My question, was that rupture, the cost of female ambition in a male-dominated industry, was that always going to be at the core of the show? and how striking is it to you that 40 years later, Joan remains one of the only women to do it? Thanks, big fan. There have been a few other women hosts, but that was sort of the iconic one. Paul, you go first, then Lucia and Jen. Yeah, you know, you're right. There have been other women that host late night, but none like Debra Vance this season, or even like Joan. Even Jones, I believe, wasn't at that 1130, even though it was, you know, on a major network.

28:15So I think that is the one thing that distinguishes what Joan did and what Deborah does, which is they're on a legacy network at that primetime slot, which has always been male-dominated. And I do wish, you know, we were talking earlier about how we were a little bit predictive in terms of what has happened with Colbert and with Kimmel. I wish we had predicted a woman taking the chair at one of these major networks. But yes, that was always part of the pitch of the show. When we pitched the show, we talked about this being a woman, and we talked a little bit about this today, about how comedy doesn't always age well.

28:52And so we talked about watching comedians who are oftentimes very progressive and forward-thinking. Someone like Debra, who had this sort of progressive sitcom about the woman being the breadwinner and flipping the gender roles. And then she was offered this late-night show, but because of sort of a public scandal and her very tumultuous divorce. All of that was taken away. And she atrophied. She leaned into the being a joke. She actually made her mint because she realized she hit a vein when she started making herself out to be the crazy person, the loony lady. So we always talked about how you can become different than you originated and how we wanted Ava to be the person that gets her back into that sort of more authentic, more progressive kind of comedy, which would be the thing that lets her get a late night show again.

29:40And we always also said that it was going to be something that was a chapter in the story, and we weren't going to watch the making of a late night show because we weren't interested in the behind the scenes for more than one season. But yeah, that was very much—

29:52Kara Swisher:No, the lunches were all you needed. Yeah. Once you see the lunches— I experienced that once. Yes, you get it. Yeah. But yeah, it was very much a part of the initial pitch for the show. Yeah, it does feel like even though, like Paul's saying, Deborah's core trauma is a little bit more connected to her husband leaving her for her sister around the time of the late night. But I think what George was saying is true that there is the central trauma for both of them really is they both were as good as their male contemporaries, but never got to have the same career. That is essentially what the problem is for both of them.

30:28And so what they both had to do is kind of carve out these new niches of a career slightly outside of the, like, kind of traditional comedian path that all their male counterparts got to have. And so that is something that I think created the characters they became. And it's interesting now, like, I think, you know, I don't think that female comedians have quite the same barriers, but I do still feel like if there was going to be another late night show, I don't know if a woman would still get that chair. And so it's interesting that now there's so many, the gatekeepers, you know, now with the internet, comedy gatekeepers are a whole other thing.

31:12So now there are so many women and men, but especially, and also a lot of queer comedians creating these new avenues of performing, whether it's podcasts or front-facing videos. But now a lot of people are having to create careers outside of like the traditional paths, which would have been really interesting if if Joan or Deborah would be a young comedian comedian today, if that is something they would have had to pursue. Jen? Yeah, I mean, exactly what Lucia was saying. It's kind of, you know, into his question about existing in the boys club, like that is very much so what Debra faced in the sense that in the real world, too, what the boys club means is that the pipeline is only open to the type of people that the pipeline lets in.

31:57And for so, so long in comedy and in entertainment, it was essentially straight white cis men. And that was, you know, and everyone else, maybe they would get let in. But especially as you see with Deborah, one wrong move and the press jumps on it and she's kind of destroyed and that pipeline closes to her and then she has to figure out other ways to make her career. And so we were very interested as we, you know, we talked a lot this show in the beginning about just women whose stories we got wrong, women like a Britney Spears or a Marcia Clark during the OG trial, women who the public, the media jumped on and made a joke and told a certain story.

32:40and only years later have we looked back and gone, wait a second, that was a completely unfair portrayal and it's just not the way we would have jumped on a man who did the same thing.

32:53Kara Swisher:Monica Lewinsky is another one. Yeah, Monica Lewinsky, another person we talked about a lot.

33:00We'll be back in a minute.

33:35Kara Swisher:Thank you. while. And I think it's critical to have this kind of tool in your arsenal, especially when it comes to your privacy. Delete.me has a great dashboard. It lets you see a lot of things. I get a lot of support from it. Last year, the New York Times Wirecutter named Delete.me their top pick for data removal services. So it might be time now to try it for yourself. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete.me now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20 % off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeliteme.com slash Kara. Use the promo code Kara at checkout.

34:14Kara Swisher:The only way to get 20 % off is to go to joindeliteme.com slash Kara and enter code Kara, K-A-R-A, at checkout. That's joindeliteme.com slash Kara, code Kara.

34:30Support for the show comes from Amazon. There are the things you can plan for. A first birthday party, a movie marathon, a renter-friendly bathroom reno. And then there are the things you can never plan for. A surprise rainstorm, a Blu-ray player calling it quits, stick-on tiles that looked way better on the package. For all things planned and unplanned, Amazon has you covered. You'll find low prices on everyday essentials and last-minute lifesavers. shop Amazon and save on essentials save the everyday I'm Midge First two-time NWL champion championship MVP and forward for the US Women's National Team before I went pro I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology which comes in handy more than you think any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have what people don't know is what that costs In my podcast, Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology, mindset, and unseen battles on the path to greatness.

35:38So take a seat and learn from the Confessions of an Elite Athlete on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

35:56Kara Swisher:so let's talk about how the three of you collaborate you all did sketch and improv and later moved to LA and work together on Broad City you touched on this earlier but Jen talked about the experience of being in the writer's room on Broad City as you noted similar opportunities don't exist as much for young comedy writers. Or else they've been severely limited comparatively. Yeah, you know, Comedy Central at that time was such a wonderful place because there was a chance to take a risk on people who hadn't made TV before, who hadn't necessarily gone through the pipeline. And so, you know, I came, Paul and Lucia worked on Broad Cities in season one.

36:34I came on in season two. And I remember just being so excited that these two people, Abby Jacobson and Alana Glazer, were given a platform and given a show because they were so funny, so smart, so unique. Their relationship was so lightning in a bottle. And what's nice is like that just doesn't exist in a straight pipeline of like all the people that usually get a chance. And so it was just extremely exciting to work on that show because it felt like just such a runaway chance that was being given to them. And it obviously culturally hit upon something that people really, really responded to. So for me and Paul and she were there much more than I was.

37:25But like for me, I look back at that as just such a important moment in comedy because it was this time when we were giving new voices a chance and giving people who didn't benefit from the typical pipeline a chance. Lucia? Yeah, like I think also one thing that was really fun about it is that there were no real grownups. Like in a lot of like comedy rooms now, even if you do get one of those jobs, which is amazing, it's kind of like, and here's a higher level person and here's this person, here's a showrunner. you know Abby and Alana were the showrunners Paul and I were there like Jen said from the beginning through all the way through season five and it was an incredibly small room so what was really cool about it was that we got to like figure it out together and I think that is kind of reflected in the show that you see which is like it feels different because it was different and so we all really got to figure it out together and make something that we felt was fresh and unique and specific to that time of the late teens in New York City.

38:24And it was a really, yeah, magical time to be creating something. And like Jen's saying, from that era, you had Key and Peele and Schumer and the Detroiters and all these people who've gone on to make great, amazing work. And now you're looking at where's the next Jordan Peele coming from? I don't know.

38:45Kara Swisher:Right, as you think about it. Now, Paul, you view Hacks as a show that's, quote, showbiz adjacent. Ava and Debra are living in exile in Las Vegas. Even when they get to Los Angeles for late night, they're still outcasts in a lot of ways. Talk about that outcast, because that's what Lu Chi was just talking about, outcast perspective bring to the show about Hollywood and the industry you don't get from shows like The Studio, which is delightful, but has a very insider slash studio exec point of view. Yeah, I mean, hopefully that's one of the things that makes it feel accessible whether you're in the industry or not, is that everybody knows what it's like to be on the outside looking in, and everybody knows what it feels like to suffer an indignity and want to say, like Jen said before, no, you got me wrong.

39:27You don't really see me. And so it was important to us to tell that story because it's what would happen to a character like Debra Vance. I mean, it's central to the DNA of the show. But as we talked about, it's also central to all the characters. All the characters are people that don't quite fit in. I mean, And Jimmy and Kayla have to leave their agency because it's like very bro-y and they're just not, they just don't really fit there. So they go out on their own for better or worse and try and, you know, create their own management firm. And I think that's true of really anybody in the show.

39:58They have to really work outside the system. DJ, certainly. Even Marcus, who, you know, started as a fan and made merch for Debra and then became sort of like her CEO of her product empire. Even he has to figure out ways to carve his own path. So that was something that, you know, we really, you know, wanted to make central to the show.

40:23Kara Swisher:Right. That they don't belong anywhere. So another question about your collaboration. Here's a second expert question. And this one's from comedian Nikki Glaser. I'm such a huge fan of Hacks. I think it's not only one of the best and funniest TV shows on TV right now, but really of all time. It is such a joy to watch every week. The joke writing is impeccable. I was wondering about the joke writing. I'm wondering how much of that happens on set. How much do you guys play around? How much improv is there? and then I'm also wondering of whose story arc or what character has changed the most in terms of what you wrote in the initial pilot what are we seeing now that you would have never predicted when you first started writing this show so that's it thank you so much I can't wait for what's next on the show this season has been incredible and please do a Jimmy spinoff thanks Nikki love Nikki thanks Nikki remember she used to have a show Nikki and Sarah with Sarah Schaefer on MTV yeah yeah That's great.

41:21Kara Swisher:Paul, why don't you start since she seems to want a Jimmy show? Oh, well, that's sweet. And she is so funny. I'm such a fan of hers, too. And have been for a long time. She's really been grinding for a long time. And she's, talk about expert joke writer. My God, she's so good. But yeah, we, so we write a lot of the jokes on set. But we write, obviously, as many jokes as we can. We're all about sort of jokes per minute on the show. We really want it to be funny. First, luckily, our cheat code is that it's a show about a stand-up comedian. So they talk and set up punchline form often. So not only do we write a lot of jokes into the script, but then our writer's room will give us a ton of alts for every single joke.

42:00We'll go through and highlight things and say, do we have anything that can beat this? And so on the day, we have sort of a wealth of alts to go through. And then I think one of the things that is the most fun for us, for the three of us, is we try and keep it very alive. We try on the day to also find things, to pitch things to the actors, to let them ad-lib and improvise if they care to. I will say that myself and Meg probably improvise the most. We probably do riff more than anybody else. But yeah, even in the editing of the show, once we get into the edit, there's oftentimes ADR lines that we'll add to fit another joke in.

42:39So the writing process in terms of the joke writing never stops, really, from beginning to end. Yeah, I mean, exactly what Paul said. The joke writing is pretty relentless. And we're all insane about trying to make sure we beat every joke until we feel good about it. And yeah, in terms of like what characters and the storyline that you couldn't have predicted where it went. I mean, there's so much of this show that we really did plot out since the beginning that we kind of we knew that Deborah and Ava would be such a, you know, the backbone of the show, that this show lived and died by the relationship between them.

43:18But I'll just speak for myself. Like, I don't think in the you know, we obviously the character of Jimmy was written for Paul, but the unique comedic chemistry between Paul and Meg Stalter, I don't think we could have predicted that. Like, it's a thing where had we cast someone as Kayla and it been like, she's fine. I think that would have just kind of been like, you know, a side character, whatever. But Paul and Meg have such like magic on screen together and are such gifted comedians and then just had this like kismet thing when they came together. So for us, that was something then that it was like, oh, we need to like also explore that relationship, which is I'm so proud of the way the Jimmy Kayla relationship as a twosome has evolved on a parallel track to Ava and Debra throughout the season.

44:10But that was really a joy in casting and finding this kind of incredible comedic duo that if you don't have that chemistry between two people, you can't really write to it.

44:22Kara Swisher:Now, let me just note, you also have said that when you pitched the show, you had a clear vision of what it was going to be down to the ideal number of seasons, the final scene. Now, you've all since confirmed there's a new project in early development in HBO, and it seems like it could be a Hacks reboot. You put out a statement, said, right now we feel good about going out without overstaying our welcome, but you won't have to twist my arm. What has changed? How do you feel about that? But I still feel pretty much the same. I think right now we're going through kind of an intense grief period because the show is ending.

44:56And like we were saying before, we really genuinely like love making the show with all these people. And as try as we might, unless it was literally hacks, we can't ever get the exact same people back in the same way. So we're really grieving. We're really like, it's sad that we won't be able to see all these people again. And so part of me is like, yeah, well, what if the show does suck, but we get to keep making it? At least we get to be together. That's part of me feels that way. But we also, I think, do feel that the quality of the show is so important to us. And we always want people to feel like every season is necessary and important.

45:32So the truth is, is I don't believe that there should be any more hacks, even though there's nothing I would want more. I got it. Anyone else? Paul? You know, I think Lucia's right there. It's so hard to say goodbye to these characters because we could work with any of the actors from the cast in a heartbeat. And I hope we do. But like Lucia said, the alchemy of all of them together will never be the same. And that was the thing that is one of the greatest joys of making the show. And actually, I know we talked a lot about Jimmy and Kayla being something that expanded as the show went on. And even though we pitched the final episode of the show, we never would have predicted that we would have had Lauren Weidman as Mayor Joe Pezzamenti back in every single season.

46:17or Polly Draper as Diana, Deborah Psychic, back in every single season. There were so many people that we were, it was the greatest privilege to let these comedians and actors shine and come back and do more. That was like the best part of making the show. And so, you know, I think - Yeah, the mayor. Yeah, the mayor, a psychic. I'm trying to think. There's plenty more that we just continue to have. Johnny Sibley as Wilson. Johnny Sibley as Wilson. That was really only supposed to be one season and we kept having him back. We'll be back in a minute.

47:15Kara Swisher:with my son. You probably don't love that.

47:20Kara Swisher:I went there with my son and I had literally, I had the best, we had the best weekend. We went to this amazing steakhouse. We went to, we hit, we went to a batting cage. We did a bike tour. We had the best time. What can they expect from us in Chicago at? We'll have predictions. We'll have hot takes. We'll have some of Scott's signature rants live and in person. And you will have the chance to ask a question as well. Come to the Vic on Monday, June 1st. You can get your tickets at ProfitMarketstour.com. That's ProfitMarketstour.com. I'm Maria Sharapova, and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough.

47:58Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Follow Pretty Tough wherever you get your podcasts.

48:23Kara Swisher:So we are 250 years into this American experiment, and I'd say it's going okay. I'd give us like a C+. There is no perfect past, but there is also no exclusively negative past, because humans are gonna human. That's what we do. I think the story of America is the struggle of people who have not been included in the promise of America to expand those principles to include more people. What's going to determine the next 250 years of America? And how do we write a new social contract that can give us the democracy we deserve? Okay, so I'm just going to be a jerk here because I'm a historian. So we have to have a prologue explaining, you know, we the people.

49:08You know, I do still remember it from Schoolhouse Rock. We the people in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice. What is it? Ensure domestic tranquility. So you're talking about a foundational document. So I'm building a document that will protect American democracy.

49:25Kara Swisher:That's this week on America Actually.

49:30Kara Swisher:I want to finish up talking about the business of Hollywood, because right now, as you said, it's a really disrupted place. It's been disrupted for a while, but it continues to be. So there's a moment in season three when Jimmy tells Ava, now people are only looking for shows that already exist with one tiny tweak or a huge global hits. And Jen, you said you feel lucky to be making comedy today. And Ava has a similar problem, you know, trying to get a show going, even though they find her very successful. They keep, you know, that somewhat idiotic studio executive sort of changes pitch. Oh, this is great, but no, but yes.

50:05Kara Swisher:Now, you pitched Hacks back in 2019, as I noted. Is there anything you do differently if you pitched it today? Any of you? I think the truth is no, you know, and I think that that speaks to the only way that a creative person can withstand all the insanity in this business, which is that I, unless you guys disagree, like I think we would pitch the same show because the truth is if you try to write towards what you think someone wants or what you think the business model is, it's not going to work because it changes so fast. And so for us, I think we would pitch the same show. We would still just be like, this is, you know, we always said about Hacks before we pitched it, we really want to watch this.

50:49This is a show we would love to watch. And so we would just pitch till today the show that we would want to see and we would want to make. And it's pretty wild because we pitched it in a time where there was this huge desire for content. And as we said, the idea was, oh, we'll all compete with Netflix and there'll be, you know, it's this arms race of streamers. And now it's a totally different world. But for creatives, like, what can you do but make sure your story is one you think is worth telling and tell it the best you can. But there are still external sources.

51:21Kara Swisher:President Trump has renewed his fight with Jimmy Kimmel, for example, and I'm sure would be fighting with Deborah tooth and nail if this was the case. Oh, I can't imagine the names he'd have for Deborah. I can't even imagine. Try, try. Let's see. With the name. Well, except JD. That would be a problem. The FCC has ordered the review of all station licenses, for example, owned by ABC chairman Brendan Carr, who I call Brenda is a moron, said last week, quote, this action is driven by investigation into DEI conduct, not speech at all. Again, a moron. You don't have to call him that. I do all the time.

51:58Kara Swisher:I'm doing an entire show called Brendan Carr is a moron. Lucia, a lot of the comedy bros got on the Trump train in part because they thought wokeness was killing free speech and comedy. It's obvious at this point that they never cared about free speech and some of them are regretting their MAGA move. But nonetheless, what's your take on that? Is that affecting things? Because that was a real thing for a minute and a half in comedy, even if they're trying desperately to row in the opposite direction. Yeah, you know, I think that it's so, of course, ironic that the people who are saying, we can't see any, you can't say anything anymore, are all the guys who have microphones.

52:35It's like, what do you think you're doing? You're talking more than anybody. It's like so – these are not people who I believe – I think they're either dumb or evil. And I don't know which. It depends on each one. It seems like a lot of them are both. They're like dumb with the evil rising. But in any case, yeah, it's, you know, listen, it's like I could go off for a very long time, you know, just people. And now, of course, so many people are saying, these comedians are saying, you know, oh, yeah, I didn't think that this is what he would do. And it's literally exactly what he said he would do.

53:12But I don't think that was actually your question. I think your question is maybe more how it was seeping into actual comedy industry. Yeah. I mean, listen, we aren't people who are really interacting with people who are maybe more conservative comedians or the like. So I don't think it feels like anybody we know is like trying to pitch things that feel more middle America. though that is something in general that like you do hear out there like we don't want coastal comedy and while I do understand that there are a lot of shows set in New York and LA because that's where a lot of comedy writers are I can understand something about having a diversity of class on television that is something that I do think is a bit missing I think when you look at like who is writing all the comedy or these shows it tends to be people with a certain education level who come from a certain kind of, you know, socioeconomic background.

54:04So even though I don't believe in any way that it's like, oh, we aren't making shows for this demographic or that, like, I can understand there's something about people in general feeling like there's a certain kind of only Harvard lampoon tone out in the world. So yeah, not that any of us were a lampoon, we weren't.

54:21Kara Swisher:Okay. All right. Anyone else about this? When you look at this happening, Does it affect your work? Because it's a topic on your show. Yeah, it's interesting. It affects our work in the sense that we, as you've seen, want to speak to it, want to portray it, want to not ignore it. I will say like we have been very lucky in our dealings with you know HBO and no one has ever been anything but incredibly creatively supportive of us which I think is just in general kind of the way HBO and HBO Max has always been seen and always operated there the executives there are people who deeply love storytelling and storytellers and and support them and so we've been really lucky in that sense.

55:07But of course, we look across the industry and we look at what's happening over at, you know, The Late Show and what happened with Kimmel. And like, we see that it's not always so, the water's not always so warm for creatives. And so while we haven't personally like dealt with anything like that, we are very aware of how it is in the atmosphere right now. And, yeah, what we try to do is support our fellow comedians as best we can when that stuff happens.

55:37Kara Swisher:So, Paul, in that regard, though, 2019 is very different than 2026. And Hollywood, as you notice, experienced a huge contraction after a surge of these streaming war-driven investment. Paramount's planned acquisition of Warner Brothers is the latest merger in the wave of consolidation of Hollywood. And across the broader entertainment industry, they will own HBO. Are you worried about that? Are you experiencing the effects of consolidation in your work right now? Do you think about it as you pitch and develop new projects? Or just this, we're going to just pitch the way we pitch? You know, I don't know that it's affecting the way that we pitch or the way that we work.

56:14But it's, of course, concerning. There's less places to sell to. The marketplace is changing a great deal. And also, you know, it's hard to predict what the future will be because it looks so different than it did in 2019. I think our hope is that because even at HBO and HBO Max, you know, under Warner Media, there have been so many regime changes in just the time that we've been there. It's felt like sort of the common wisdom is leave HBO alone. Let Casey Bloys do what Casey Bloys does. If it's not broke, don't fix it. And I really hope that that's the case because, like Jenna and Lucia were saying, we have felt such great support creatively in terms of what we've wanted to make and what we've wanted to say.

56:57Even things that could maybe brush up against things that in the media landscape, you know, they might say, well, is that about us? Even though it isn't necessarily. They've just been like, make the show you want to make. So I hope that that is what happens because we really love the people that we've worked with. But, yeah, I think everyone has a level. There's like an undercurrent of anxiety for everybody that it's like, what will this mean?

57:22Kara Swisher:Well, especially because these are tech owners. Exactly. These are tech owners. They don't have any sense of humor in case you're interested. Yeah, and also like their need for growth, not just profit, but growing profit is really scary because it's like, you know, an industry that for a century was profitable, that creatives and executives alike made money. They made a profit. Did that profit grow every single year? I don't know. I'm not it's a very different these are different cats you'll be wishing for the Tony Goldwyn characters soon enough I know as villainous as he can act like because he is very not that in real life lovely guy lovely lovely person and excellent actor I do think it's like he's nothing compared to what you know we could be up against I can tell you I know your new owners quite well I'll be leaving CNN that's how I'll have to tell you I'm publicly set I'm leaving CNN because of it I just don't care to spend time with them anyway life's too short for me and I have too many options anyway Hollywood people have less options unfortunately so let's speaking of that end up we have two more questions on tech in the future because it's impossible not to do an interview without talking about AI at any point in anything we do now but in a recent New York Times opinion essay author Colson Whitehead an amazing author, wrote about AI saying, if you use it for your art, you're a freaking hack.

58:47Kara Swisher:AI tools are often pitched to artists as a way to help them enhance and refine their work. It's already being used, obviously, in film production. Sometimes it's fine. Jen, you directed an episode this season that focuses on AI, how it's being used in the industry without giving too much away. How do you look at it when you think about this growing trend? I mean, I think that I'm clapping for what Colson Whitehead said. I'm saying, yes, Yes, we agree very much that if you use it in your work, you're a hack. That is very much the point of the episode that we did. You know, I'm not an AI expert.

59:20I cannot speak to it in medicine or other industries. But the general sense that we have is really scary that tech is always trying to replace humans and replace humans with this technology in all industries. And that is certainly not what we need, especially not in this country when we can't provide health care for people and people can't make a living wage. But then in terms of the creative industry, that I can't speak to because that I've done for a very long time. And there's just no need to push this technology on us. It's not going to make things better. The way we have told stories, we've figured that out.

1:00:01As Debra says in the episode, we don't need to optimize it. There's this constant push of tech to optimize, optimize, optimize.

1:00:07Kara Swisher:Optimize is their fame at work. And to what end? If you remove all the friction, if you remove all the grist in life, you're left with nothing. And that's very true about the creative process. That is what this show has said for many years. The grist and the struggle and the friction is part of the process. It's what makes art good. Without that friction, without that grist, it's a different thing. And you don't want that because I promise you all the art you've enjoyed for centuries now, artists had to deal with that grist. They had to deal with that friction. They had to question things. They had to feel insecure about it.

1:00:45They had to explore 8 ,000 different ways to go about it. They didn't go to a type in a prompt of what would be the best way for this character to get out of this. Like, it's just, I'm telling you, the friction and the grist is, it is necessary part of the process. And it should not be removed.

1:01:04Kara Swisher:Yeah. Seamless is one or other. Let's make it seamless. I'm like, how about we don't? It's not supposed to be seamless. Let's see the seams. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So I have one more question. Taking a step back, Hacks follows a long tradition of movies and shows about making movies and shows from 8 1⁄2 to The Player to the Larry Sanders show. Oh, what a classic. 30 Rock, the aforementioned Androge, now Hollywood's in trouble. We're seeing this in the stories that Hollywood tells about itself. Let's push forward five years. If you're making a Hacks reboot in 2031, what are Debra and Ava going to be dealing with?

1:01:38Kara Swisher:Lucia, you go first, then Jen, then Paul, you get the last word. God, I don't know. Obviously, I mean, I'm not a psychic, but I wonder if they want to start just making stuff on their own. I feel like that's where we came from. You know, Paul and I started making videos for YouTube. That's how our career started. And Jen and I actually met in a sketch group where we made videos as well. So I don't know where the industry goes, but I could say I think that it would be fun to watch them pick up a camera and start making an independent film or something like that. It could be fun because, you know, as you're saying, the industry is kind of – I don't think – a lot of people are very doomsday about it.

1:02:21I'm actually not, to be honest with you. I just feel that people are constantly wanting to watch media. And yes, I think the internet and YouTube is taking a big bite out of that. But I still believe that people love being lost in stories. And I don't believe that's ending anytime soon. But I do think that we're still figuring out ways to access those stories, to make those stories. But I do think the two of them figuring out they want to tell a story and figuring out how to do it themselves would be fun to watch. And then they could figure out distribution.

1:02:54Kara Swisher:Yeah. Yeah. Jen? Yeah, I think I'll piggyback on Lucia's and say that probably as things with gatekeepers get more and more consolidated, they're going to look outside of that system to make their work. And so maybe the reboot starts with Debra having the world's biggest yard sale of all her antiques and artwork. I like that. Because they are trying to fund their projects. And that's where we find them. A live citizen came, right? Yeah. What is this sled here? What is this? That's a pepper shaker. That's her pepper shaker. Oh, the pepper shakers. Oh, my God. The pepper shakers. Paul, you get the last word.

1:03:40Oh, well, you know, the three of us were at a fundraiser where we saw Sarah McBride speak. And she was talking about how— She's amazing. I just was with her. She's amazing. She's incredible. I mean, how charismatic and how—it was so helpful to get a little jolt of hope in a time that seems very bleak. because she talked about how over the course of history, you know, it feels like this is the end of time so much. And she was saying that it felt even worse before the New Deal. It felt even worse before civil rights movement. It felt even worse before women had the right to vote and the suffragettes had tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and were failing.

1:04:20So it's been a long time that people have felt this way and you have to maintain your hope. And I don't want to contradict that. But I think I'm like, maybe the reboot starts in Debra's bunker in New Zealand. And Ava's like, we have to get out and fight. We have to fight the robots for water. We have to do that. Because even though it has seemed bleak and has probably seemed bleaker. Robots don't drink water, but go ahead. You're right. They needed to cool their data centers. Yeah, they used it for coolant. That's right. So I don't know. I think it's just, unfortunately, it seems like even though there have been many times in history when we said the end is near, this is a time where we're like, but really though, this is it, right?

1:05:03So I don't know. In 2031, I think Ava's, you know, hopefully revolutionizing Deborah and having her use her arsenal of wealth to keep humanity alive in some way.

1:05:14Kara Swisher:All right. I think we'll end on that note. Anyway, thank you so much. It's a wonderful series and you've made a beautiful piece of art, really. Thank you so much. That's so kind. It means a lot coming from you. Thank you.

1:05:32Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Christian Castro Vassell, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Madeline LaPlante-Duby, Sam Lee, and Julia Sharp-Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already on the show, you're a no woman, but to be ignored. If not, you're Bob Lipka. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

1:06:10Kara Swisher:We'll be back on Monday with more.