The Media CEOs Betting Big on Journalism’s Future: Jim Bankoff & Meredith Kopit Levien

21:39Kara Swisher:So you're not going to answer it, but I'm going to ask you one final time. Is he a good business owner of the Washington Post? Should he sell it? I don't think that's for me to decide. I am for all ownership structures that do the two things that I just said. Make Americans have a better relationship with high-quality independent journalism and make a great product that is independent reporting-based. The answer is no to that. Go ahead. So I think as a steward, those two companies, other companies, you covered this for decades. You know that media needs to evolve and media needs to change. When Meredith came in and Mark, you all changed the New York Times for the better.

22:23There were hard decisions and unpopular decisions that had to be made. There were people who were hired. There were people who were fired. There were people who chose to lead. Yet it was all done in service of growing and protecting that institution. And I will add, it was done with extraordinary competence and ultimately success. So these two organizations, other institutions like them, also likely need to change. That's a fair argument. You know better than anyone, if you don't innovate, if you don't change, particularly in what I think is the fastest changing industry media, where technology changes, tastes change, society changes, we have to change along with it.

23:03So let's state that those organizations perhaps needed to change, the post, pre-Jeff, etc. et cetera. Question is, how do you execute? How do you do it successfully? How do you do it with grace and competence that attracts people rather than repels them? And that's part of the magic. I like to think that as stewards, we have an institution, New York Magazine, which I think is a magazine in full, which has been growing 25%. Our newsroom has not shrunk at all. It's under amazing editorial leadership of David Haskell, who I consider a partner in growing the business. It covers the full realm of culture.

23:39It won the ASME for Best Magazine this year. So a ton of success. We inherited that leadership from the Wasserstein family who were great stewards of it. I think we had to innovate. We did not stand still. We introduced the paywall and grew it. The Wassersteins and us led the introduction of new verticals like the cut and the strategists in order to, in Vulture, to make it more relevant to the digital age. So point is, we had to change. And if you look at it where it is now versus where it was five years ago, it's a 57-year-old publication. And you look at where it's come. There are a lot of evolution, but it was always done with care.

24:18It was always done with principles.

24:19Kara Swisher:So how do you assess how the Ellisons are conducting themselves at CBS? You were working for it. Yeah, I will say the jury is out. But you You have to identify who is important, who is leadership, and demonstrate competence and get faith. Get the people behind you to support that. Bring the ones that you want to bring along with you. Communicate to the organization. Effectively be competent leaders. And, you know, I hope, just as you hope, that they will be. This story is not done. I do, too. They have, you know, a lot of public stuff has happened. But they have an opportunity with this merger, with CBS, with now CNN, to really do great journalistic work.

25:03We're all hoping that they will, but it's going to require deft execution and smart leadership.

25:08Kara Swisher:And the jury is out. So far, how do you assess it in this point in the game? Listen, there's been a lot of, there's just been a lot of noise in this point in the game. Actually, there's been a lot of damage. I don't want to dodge it. We saw what has happened with 60 Minutes. And again, they're prerogatives of owner to reset things. I don't think anyone wanted a reset of that nature. I don't think it's safe to say that that was not part of the plan. Okay, so now what is the plan? And let's see, let's judge them based on what they accomplished. I was listening to Brian Stelter talking to your old friend, Peter Kafka, about this topic.

25:47And Brian, who is at CNN, Maybe he has to say this, maybe he doesn't. But he's going to try to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if they can rebuild that institution into something that is journalistically strong and carries on the tradition of fearless journalism. And that's how they will be judged. They'll have one shot to build that trust. They have a strong lead in with NFL football every Sunday. And they'll have an opportunity to do that. They'll have an opportunity to rebuild that project for the digital world, too, which I know is that's an example. That's something that they want to do.

26:18they claim they're doing. So let's see if they can actually do it.

26:21Kara Swisher:Right. See, I'm going to go back to your Maya Angelou quote. When people show you who they are, believe them. I think they've shown us who they are pretty actively for a long time. But you keep believing. Don't stop believing. I think, can I just say, I do think what you're hearing from both of us is... One hopes they would be better people. The public is better off when there are more institutions doing high-quality, independent, creative, brilliant, surprising journalism. Yes. And I think what you're hearing from both of us is we wish for more of that. And then, by the way, the humans who have been working in these institutions, many of them are prospering and doing better than ever through platforms.

27:08We seek to be one of those platforms. Yes, we're going to ask you about that. And so out of this institution, crumbling for whatever reason, crumbling because of Google, crumbling because of different types of ownership, comes opportunity and comes enlightenment. And a lot of people are walking up and down the closet here in Cannes, celebrating that and prospering from that. No, I get that.

27:31Kara Swisher:I understand where you are, but you're wrong. By the way, this is my daily conversation with her. I can't imagine why I actually know these people and know a lot more than you do about what's going on inside. But it's bad. You wouldn't want to work for them. And I shall not be, as you know. We'll be back in a minute.

27:58Kara Swisher:I did enjoy working for The Times. One of the issues was control. So, you know, tech columnist Kevin Roos just announced he's leaving The New York Times. I'm sorry I did help him a little bit do that. So surprised. I know, I know. Anywhere someone leaves, I am suddenly there quietly. But I think he was interested in being an entrepreneur. And I think some people, when they come to me and they said, should I go? And I look at them and I go, stay where you are. Because they don't have that entrepreneurial nature. But he's starting a new company with Casey Newton, who left The Verge in 2020, who I also helped leave The Verge.

28:32Thanks.

28:33Kara Swisher:I just like taking reporters out of major institutions. So talk a little bit about that changing part, because right here in Cannes right now, there's 500 creators. The creator economy is the big topic, even over AI. And the power that individual creators and personal brands has that is increasingly becoming very good quality. So talk a little bit about where it's going from a talent point of view. And there's pluses to working for The New York Times. I agree, the institutional support and everything else. I haven't even said anything. And you agree. I agree with that. But I also think you better start thinking about who creates value and how you pay them, which isn't nearly enough.

29:11The first thing I want to say is whenever anyone has this conversation, I think the thing that doesn't come up enough or most times ever is, you know, we wrote a story today about Myanmar. and I think now the world is in a fifth year of a civil war in Myanmar and we've got a photographer on the ground there, Daniel Barahulak, and a reporter there who are telling the story of this brutal civil war in Myanmar. You probably have not heard, you might've heard of Daniel's name. He's a pretty famous photographer. You would not have heard of the reporter's name, I bet. We had 70 people on the ground in Ukraine last year, fifth year of a grinding war that I can assure you, you know, the audience development models are not going to tell you that's the thing to cover.

30:06No, I get that. That's great. And so I just like when people say like, oh, creators, people should get their news from creators. You do need big honking institutions who are going to do the hard work of sending people places in as secure as possible a way with as much support as possible and as much expertise and sometimes in language and everything else it takes to do that as possible to get the public information about these really important things that are happening. I just think that never comes up in the conversation. And you know what that is? It is really goddamn expensive to do that. And so the model of the New York Times is we have a lot of really hardworking, extraordinary journalists who you may not have heard of yet.

30:56And maybe their life's work is they want to report in a particular place. And you may not hear of them, but they're doing wildly important work that really matters. And we've got, we make stars, we hire stars. We're thrilled to have stars. We're especially thrilled to help a star be a bigger star. And I think the proposition at the New York Times. The talent proposition is best journalists in the world doing the best work of their career with the industries, I think, and you can back me or not on this, most kind of well-resourced support structure, lawyers, security people. Absolutely. You know, the whole apparatus of support, support when the administration or a company or anybody else pushes back.

31:43I understand all this, but how do you - Let me say one more thing. an audience, a giant audience. And when you were there, you said to me, I think after your first column, big audience here at the New York Times. I wouldn't say that today. You don't work there today.

31:59Kara Swisher:I don't, but what I would say is... I mean, I think it's indisputable there's a big audience at the New York Times. I think you were the one person who did understand what was happening with... I put myself in the creator bunch, I suppose. Yeah. You're a journalist who is also a creator. The penny did drop as... And it's not just New York Times. It would be the same thing for the Wall Street Journal. What do I need you for? Like, kind of thing. And so, and I get the, if I was reporting from Ukraine, it would be a very different thing, correct? But what I'm wondering is, how do you deal, you were one of the few people who understood this, is that you had to start changing compensation.

32:32Kara Swisher:And then I'm going to ask, because Jim was very, and he's not a pushover. It was that he understood that there's a very different partnership. So how, you're going to have an increasing number of people who are going to want a different compensation system. I think that the Times will continue to find its way to a model that accomplishes everything I've just described. Is it going to be for everyone? It wasn't for you. By the way, Kevin Roos, amazing journalist. I loved Hard Fork. I listened to most of the episodes. Casey Newton, they're amazing. I wish them well. Those guys want to do their own thing.

33:13I wish them all the luck in the world, and we were lucky to have them like we were lucky to have you when we did. The other bit of it, Cara, you know, why did Jonathan Swan, who just wrote this book that Cara name-checked Regime Change, come to the New York Times to work with Maggie Haberman, who was the best political reporter on Earth? And they just wrote a book together, and I think they would say the things that I'm saying. So I'm just, I think the Times has shown itself to be a place that takes its obligations to the public very seriously. And also, as it does that, recognizes we operate in a broader marketing world.

33:55Kara Swisher:Jim, talk about how you look. I've obviously thought a lot about this. And I don't think there is a wrong answer. Everything you said is true. Let me give you my framework for it. Are there independent creators here? Yeah, I see some hands going up. So you all know, like there's lanes. and I'm going to do two polls. On one poll, way over to one extreme, is the full independent creator. You all who know, those of you who do it know how hard it is. You are creating your own content. You are feeding the algorithmic beast day in, day out. You are trying to do your brand deals or have help do your brand deals.

34:30You are hustling. You are focused on your audience. You are focused on making a living. And then you are focused on audience growth. You are focused on business things. You know, maybe you got into it because of the passion of what you had to say, but then you very quickly realize there are other things that go along into it. So you reach this new level, and this new level is, do you want to hire an assistant? Do you want to hire help? Do you want to hire a production crew? Do you want to hire a sales team, ultimately? And for a lot of people, let's use the shining example of this, not in journalism, but in entertainment, is Mr.

35:01Beast, who said yes to all those questions and hit a Grand Slam home run. And that's one person. And then you look at the success rate for those. And I'm not saying this to be discouraging. If you're a creator, you should go for it. But just know that's what it takes. And that's not for everyone. The other poll, the other side is the institution. And in my mind, New York Times is the pinnacle of a great institution. There are other ones. I can point to the Wall Street Journal. I can point to ESPN. I can even point to New York Magazine, which we run, which for my money is obviously the best magazine journalism-based institution.

35:40And what makes an institution great? It's the people, but it's the people who are put into a system to succeed based on the values and the proposition of that institution. And that means often, and this is not a negative, it's actually a positive, conforming to the institution. What does it mean to conform to the institution? Sometimes it's editorial standards. Sometimes it's like, hey, you're on this beat. We don't want you talking about that thing, even though you might have feelings, even though you might want to report on that. That's just not what we hired you to. And there's a career ladder and give it a couple years in your job and we'll get you into that other thing.

36:17But if you want to, if it's Tuesday and you want to do something else on Thursday, that's just not what this place is about. Or in your case, hey, I like my salary. I like my health care. You pay me well, but I'm doing really well here, shouldn't I get a cut of the action? And there are very few institutions that are set up around that. Not a negative, because the institution is great for all the reasons you just said, and we need those institutions. I manage not only New York Magazine, but I manage Vox, which is an emerging institution as well. We created a different model, though, to take advantage, which I say is in the middle of those two poles, which is I want to have that flexibility either and that motivation as an entrepreneur, as a journalist, as a creator.

37:01I want the creative freedom. I want the financial motivation, but I don't want to do all the other things. I don't want to have my own legal team. I do not necessarily want to have my own production team. I do not want to have my own sales team. Maybe I want one of those things. Maybe I want three of those things, but maybe I want someone else to do that. And maybe I want to be part of a like-minded portfolio of people who want the same thing. And maybe if I'm an advertiser, I want the convenience and the scale of going to one place where I know I can find high quality people like Kara Swisher, like Scott Galloway, like Brene Brown, like our newest sign, Ina Garten.

37:40I don't know if she's here, but Rob Bernardzone, Maria Sharapova. I won't name all 50 of them, but I could. And what you'll find if I do is that they all share quality, consistency, integrity, thoughtfulness. They might be an athlete. They might be a chef. They might be a leading tech journalist. Do you see that being— But we're building that, and people know they can come to us for that.

38:01Kara Swisher:Okay, okay, no more ads for Vox, please. I'll stop now. That's okay. But when you think about the compensation things, and once people do get a taste of this, it is shifting rather significantly, as Scott talks about a lot, Scott Gowey, towards the talent. Are you thinking about it as a problem, either of you? You first, Meredith. Look, I always say I want my tombstone to say raised a happy, well-adjusted child and like helped more journalists earn a living wage and, you know, be able to do good work in a fair and well compensated way. And I do think being a journalist is one of those really important jobs in society that we need smart, ambitious, awesome people to do.

38:47So I am for, you know, as much compensation as is reasonable to be given to journalists. I think I've already expressed, we've got a sort of broad proposition of things we're doing at the New York Times.

39:03Kara Swisher:Are you striking more of these kind of deals or not at all? I think I've already said what we think. Yeah. And ours is a mix. We have shows that we own and operate like today explained. And then we have ones that where our incentives are very much aligned. You make money, Cara, we make money. And you hold us accountable for making money. And we love that. And it's not going to work for us if it's not going to work for you. I would argue it's not going to work for you. if it doesn't work for us or whoever's next. And we proved that to you. I think you came back for renewal because it's working and it's growing and we hope to continue that.

39:41Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

39:49Kara Swisher:So let's talk about a couple more things. One is, let me go to this question. We get an expert question. This is from Theo Baker. Hi there. My name is Theo Baker and I'm an investigative journalist. and the author of the recent book, How to Rule the World. I'm also a certified young person, having graduated from college exactly a week ago today. My time at school became very clear that young people are not engaging with independent, nonpartisan media in the way that other generations seem to be. There's no news ritual. There's no reading the Sunday paper from cover to cover. There's no Cronkite.

40:25Even millennials have newsletters and blogs. But there isn't that sort of centralized 15-minute-a-day idea for Gen Z. To the extent that they get stories, they tend to be filtered through another source, someone on TikTok reading a story on a green screen, not the actual articles themselves. I'm wondering if this is a distribution problem that you're concerned about. And if so, how do you think it might be possible to reach young people with more high-quality independent news content? Theo, it's a great question and one that I think about all the time. And I have this anecdote from early on when I got to the Times.

41:02Somebody said to me, you guys should buy Mike.com. Oh, I remember. Remember that? I think I told you not to. And I mean, we were like, why? Why? Right. Yeah. And the answer was because you needed to reach young people. And it's like, there's no reason what we do at the New York Times cannot reach young people. The single largest area of new, fresh investment at the New York Times is going into video, putting as much of our work on video, including reporters, I will say, of all ages. There's a great video today. We actually have a tab in the app now. It's like a whole video feed of short stories.

41:47There's a tab in the app, a video from Aporva Mandeville, who's one of our health and science reporters about Ebola and how the symptoms are harder to spot. The symptoms are less bad now, so there's fear the disease will spread even more rampantly because of that. And you watch like a 120-second video. You never read anything. And you see there's a human with expertise showing you how the disease is spreading. You've just gotten what might have taken you 20 minutes to read a story, you know, two years ago on the New York Times. We do forensic video investigations now. So we're the ones who figured out through forensic video that it was the U.S.

42:33who bombed the school. I think it was in southern Iran in Minab. It was a U.S. missile that hit it. That's like this stuff is ageless. This is how people taking information now. And by the way, where is all that video going? Ultimately, we want you to come and watch it on our destination. You're not going to do that unless you know it exists. So we are, you know, at the beginning of having it be all over YouTube and Instagram and TikTok and everywhere people are so that we do not see the ground.

43:05Kara Swisher:Where do you consider it, given Theo's question, the most important place to reach young people? I mean, I think it is inarguable that young People are getting their news on big video platforms, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok. And so we are making a giant push to be in those places. We should talk about No Links, too. It is a different ecosystem, but we are making the bet that we've got to be there. You've got to see our work there, and that is going to help you understand. And I think we've got lots of early evidence that it's really working. And I also want to say we're making great shows at The New York Times.

43:44We brought to Cannes the hosts of a new show called Popcasts. It's a show on music and culture by music critic John Caramonica and music reporter Joe Casarelli. Joe is now best known. He's the guy who interviewed Taylor Swift for 30 minutes, like in a black site, you know, in a sort of only on The New York Times interview. We have our cooking, our biggest cooking franchise right now. It's called The Pizza Interview. If you're a celebrity and your movie or your book is just out, you go make a pizza in our test kitchen. Last thing I got to say, who doesn't know someone under the age of 20 who plays all our games?

44:27Well, that's different. That was the perfect purchase. I play them. They're amazing. And over the age of like 50 and 80. I won't repeat everything you said about formats because you're absolutely right. And Vox in particular is all about multi-format journalism. But I'll talk about two things that I think are overhyped trends that people talk about. One is young people not consuming news brands. And then the second is around people's attention spans getting shorter. I know why people say both of those things. It feels like my attention span is shorter. Yet, I will listen to an hour-long episode of On.

45:05I will list, and by the way, young people, not all young people. When I was young, I, Dirty Secret, I wasn't flipping through every page. I know Theo is. I was not Theo, unfortunately. I was, but, you know, thankfully I have children who do care about the news and they become stronger news consumers over time. Now, having said that, of course, they're not going to flip through a newspaper, but they are going to seek out quality sources in addition to the TikTok creator with the green screen because they're curious people. But that's not changing. The human condition is not changing in that way.

45:38People understand quality. They want quality. And they have to get savvy about this new way of consuming thing. And they are every day. And quality brands that put in the work, quality personalities that do that will keep them. The formats are changing, though. And the choice is abundant. When we were younger, we had a few TV channels and a few newspapers and some magazines. Now I have a device with a 4K screen where I can read, I can watch, I can listen, I can get it in my inbox, I can get it pushed to me, I can get it in a reel from eight different tech platforms. And that is a wonderful thing.

46:14It's just change. And then I can watch Game of Thrones for hours and hours. But if someone dares to make a TikTok that is 90 seconds, that should have been 30 seconds, screw them, they've lost me. If someone can make a three-hour podcast and I will listen to the whole thing if it captures my attention. So that's why I don't think it's an attention span thing. We have more choice. That is a wonderful thing. And then it's up to us as institutions, creators, and all of the above to make sure that we take advantage of that. But the quality will be everlasting. The trust is an everlasting value. These values are everlasting.

46:57And don't get fooled. There was fluffy stuff when I was a kid, maybe for those of you who are closer to my age. Yeah, we like to waste our time. Just because people are still wasting their time on stuff doesn't mean, particularly as they get a little bit older and more invested in the world and they have their own children and they need to be active members of their communities and their societies, they are going to look for quality information and they are doing that.

47:19Kara Swisher:You both are in relatively good shape for the media, right? I would say in excellent shape and probably up and to the right for most of your businesses. What is the thing you're most worried about at this moment in time and in five years from now, if you're going to be the CEOs of your companies? Is it the attacks of the Trump administration on the New York Times? They keep suing you and the Wall Street Journal. He keeps going back and forth. That's just an effort to deter more independent journalism. 100 percent. But it still is risk taking. It's a risk for you. I'll do one since I'm in a room of marketers and in a marketing, a beautiful Las Vegas convention on the Cote d 'Azur.

48:01One thing I think about is the role of marketing. We have subscription services and we have very loyal advertising. But sometimes based on what's happening in this administration or other administrations, the commitment of not thankfully we have great loyal advertising. But commitments wane and ebb and flow. And I think what's most important as you are talking to your customers, if you're an advertiser, I know people are listening who are not. But if you aren't an advertiser and you want to support a brand, support a brand that is making a commitment to this important work that I think everyone listening and watching cares about.

48:44Okay. I think brands are afraid. So you're worried they weren't. The fear is brands run away from it. But I think audiences are savvy enough to know they are supporting this and I will embrace a brand that embraces the quality work. So my fear is, like, don't run from it because the administration or someone else is saying something. Embrace it because you know your audience. By definition, they are there and they will support you for supporting it. I'm going to repeat something I alluded to at the beginning, which is I am deeply, deeply worried about an American public and probably a global public that is so used to algorithms feeding them what matches their own worldviews that we have lost our understanding of what high quality independent journalism is and does and why it matters.

49:35and a society where it plays a diminished role in people's life is a much lesser society. And I actually think that's what Theo Baker's question is really about. And that is what the New York Times and I think Jim and all of us who are sort of fighting for journalism, fighting for our intellectual property rights, fighting for us to be able to report in an undeterred way, which is protected by the law, that is what we are fighting for. And it is for the public. Amen.

50:10Kara Swisher:And I'll end on that because we got to wrap it up is something I say to my kids a lot. One of my sons says, I'm not reading the news right now because it's bad. And I'm like, oh no, my friend, you're going to understand it. But what we have to do is sort of point to the solutions. And I interview lots of media people where things are working like Oliver Darcy or a bunch of Casey Newton and others. And so I like say, Like, it's not all fucking doom scrolling. Here's what works. Same thing that I think is happening in politics. Zahra Mamdami just swept the Democratic Party aside in New York. And I don't think it's because everyone all of a sudden wants to be a socialist necessarily.

50:47Kara Swisher:I think it's because they're talking about hope and solutions and fixing. I think the messages of fixing and what we can do instead of just, like, agonizing over what stupid thing Donald Trump said today is the media should start to do that. and stop focusing in on what dumb thing he said. Like, that just makes you feel sick. And so I think it's probably our responsibility not to hold back the truth from you because if you can't take it, you know, get back on the fucking porch, kids, if you can't take it. But we have to provide you with, here's what you can do about it. And the media should be doing that.

51:24Kara Swisher:And that's not happy journalism. That's what can you do? What actions can you take? And that's on us to do that for people. Anyway, thank you so much. Thank you to these two. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Today's show was produced by Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Madeline LaPlante-Duby, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Rosemary Ho, Tracy Hunt, Julia Sharp-Levine, and Lissa Soap. And thanks to United Talent Agency for providing a great space to record a podcast in Cannes. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics.

52:05Kara Swisher:If you're already following the show, you know that Jeff Bezos is a terrible media owner, and so does Meredith. If not, Jim, the jury is not out on Paramount. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more. Thank you.