The Onion’s Ben Collins on Political Satire & Why Trump Isn’t Funny

15:18Ben Collins:And we're just like, no, this is the thing that's taking place. And we get to be funny about it. So it's like we're in this like really interesting and prized position. So, yeah, look, it's gotten harder because everything's so stupid.

15:31Kara Swisher:Well, because Trump threatens to invade Greenland because he didn't get the Nobel Prize as an onion headline. Yes, exactly.

15:36Ben Collins:Like, everything is so stupid. So in that sense, it is hard to compete with reality.

15:41Kara Swisher:So in the bigger picture, at one hand, it's not funny times we're living in. And at the same time, one of the key news figures is a parody of himself on purpose. How difficult is it to do satire in 2026?

15:58Ben Collins:I actually think people keep saying this as if it's like this horrific burden. And it is. Like, it's harder to be funny now. but it's actually easier to push the lines. Yeah. Think about this. Like we made a 22-minute documentary where Jeffrey Epstein rises from the dead like a horror movie figure at the end of it.

16:17Kara Swisher:It was called Bad Pedophile.

16:18Ben Collins:Yeah, it's called Jeffrey Epstein, Bad Pedophile. We had a, we still can't get this off the wall. We had this like gigantic caulk gun that was filled with fake cum in it. Sorry, it'd be weird. That's okay.

16:30Kara Swisher:Please go ahead.

16:32Ben Collins:The boundaries through which that we can play in humor right now are the furthest they've ever been. Like, we are very lucky to be able to say literally whatever we want all the time. And it's part of, like, acceptable American adult society.

16:46Kara Swisher:Yeah. Although the theater chain pulled it out in the wake of Charlie Kirk's murder, correct? Is that right?

16:52Ben Collins:That's true. Yeah, we had a distribution deal for that, and then they pulled out. But, like, here's a thing that just keeps happening in American life that I'm just, like, genuinely proud of. And I think that once people start to embrace it, that you'll start to realize, like, oh, this is actually what is good about this country. So we made this documentary called Jeffrey Epstein, Bad Pedophile. We were going to release it with a theater chain throughout the country. Charlie Kirk gets shot, and we get an email the next day saying, we're not doing this anymore. And initially, we were pissed off, and we were like, this is just straight capitulation.

17:26Ben Collins:The fact that Charlie Kirk gets shot means we can't make fun of Jeffrey Epstein. Like, what the fuck? How does this, like, what is the chain of command here? Right. But then we're like, okay, so what do we do? So then we told everyone that we're going to put it in theaters everywhere in a few weeks. And we don't have any place to put it. But if you want to put it in your independent cinema throughout the country, we'll just give you the movie and you can keep the gate. And within literally six days, we had many, many more than that theater chain. We had, like, that theater chain was going to be 20, 30 cities nationwide.

17:58Ben Collins:We were in 50, 60 throughout the United States and Canada. And people had to, like, add extra screenings. People were making whole nights out of it.

18:07Kara Swisher:So a different experience than Melania, the documentary. Yeah.

18:12Ben Collins:Great movie.

18:13Kara Swisher:That should be called Married to a—anyway, go ahead.

18:16Ben Collins:Oh, just a joke. Yeah, same ending, though. Jeffrey Epstein comes back to life and both moves. um i i uh so yeah look the traditional mainstream power structures here are just going to capitulate they're just going to fail repeatedly you can't count on them but then like the people you actually want to hang out with are going to step up you're seeing it in minneapolis um you're kind of seeing it nationwide once you start to embrace this thing and we have we've had a lot more fun it's just been a lot easier to live like this.

18:48Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

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22:53Kara Swisher:So, you know, it's hard to make Trump the butt of the joke when he is the joke. So we got an expert question from an outside person. It's in that vein. So here's yours.

23:03Ben Collins:Hey, Ben. It's Justin Theroux. I am an actor, writer, and New Yorker and a longtime Onion subscriber. My question, perhaps not surprisingly, is about Donald Trump. Throughout history, political strongmen that have emerged like him or authoritarians like him usually take themselves very seriously. They're very austere figures. But Trump, I've noticed, has added something unique to this authoritarian playbook, which is he spreads his unique authoritarian message through what some people, perhaps not yourself, would call humor or comedy. It's this new kind of authoritarianism that has learned how to shitpost.

23:51Ben Collins:He uses memes. He uses bad AI, famously him flying a jet fighter over protesters and dumping feces on them. He uses irony. And when he's cornered on it, he usually just pulls that kind of, you know, I was just joking or what are you stupid? Or he sort of goes through that escape hatch. As someone using satire to cover not just the news but also disinformation, how does this change the game for The Onion? Or when your targets are already operating in sort of a bad faith irony mode where everything is dangerous but nothing is serious, has The Onion's brand of satire had to evolve? How do you satirize someone who's already performing in a post-sincere world where, sadly, cruelty is often the joke?

24:41Ben Collins:Great question.

24:42Kara Swisher:Justin, it was. And I heard he's your handsomest subscriber in India.

24:45Ben Collins:Yeah, I was going to say, it's unfair that he gets to be handsome and smart. Like, what is that shit about?

24:50Kara Swisher:I got him specifically for you because you said that. We were laughing our asses off, so I asked him to do it. So talk about that. It's a great question because Trump uses humor quite a bit. And when he was running, everyone was making fun of him. I said, no, he's funny, like he is in a weird way. And he makes fun of himself, and he's very self-deprecating. And, of course, that's moved into using cruelty as humor, which sometimes is funny to people. So talk about what he's saying there. It's a very complex and interesting question of what you do then when the authoritarians take the playbook that hurts them.

25:22Ben Collins:Yeah, no, he's funny in a way a bully can occasionally hit on something, right? But I always ask this to people. Have you ever heard this man actually laugh, like, in a way that you can't control yourself? Every good person you know, you've been around them, and they have laughed so hard that they can't handle it, right?

25:40Kara Swisher:Mm-hmm.

25:41Ben Collins:He's never done that. And that's because he might be operating with the functionality of, like, the baseline of what humor is, like, A plus B equals joke. But he doesn't, you know, there's no wider thing there. There's nothing that keeps you around. Mm-hmm. he's not funny in a way that is illuminating or interesting. He's just bullying people. It's just school year bullying. And like, I think there is a shelf life on this. We went through this sort of in the 80s with like Andrew Dace Clay style comedy. And people just get tired of it. People get tired of people being mean. And you can deal with it for a few years and it might feel fresh that there were sacred cows and there aren't anymore.

26:22Ben Collins:But it gets tiresome. And look, I have no doubt that there is some base humor in him. And I do think that he's much funnier. Well, he'll say things that are attempts at comedy that most politicians simply will not do this, right? They are talking about farm bills and stupid shit like that. That's what set him apart. But he's not actually funny. Like, a genuinely funny person ran for office and was able to keep that lightness. I think they would do probably even better than him.

26:52Kara Swisher:I'm good at being devil's advocate. I had Joe D 'Apata on, and he talked about how he thinks the funnier presidential candidate always wins, the one who has more wit or humor. And Trump does draw people in. I think it's getting tired. You're absolutely right. Because it's like, oh, are you still going to make another poop joke, you two-year-old? Or Elon does the same thing. He is definitely not funny. He is wildly unfunny, and he thinks he's funny. It's an interesting dynamic going on where they think they're much funnier than they are, and at the same time that they're using humor is interesting.

27:20Ben Collins:I actually think it's like who is least in a box. Right. It's not like who's funniest. It's like who is most willing to call a spade a spade in the moment, even if the calling a spade a spade is just fucking wrong. Right. Like Donald Trump will Donald Trump will call immigrants whatever he wants to call them. And it's incorrect. And it's based on shit that he read on his weird little racist Facebook knockoff. But he will say it as plainly as he can. Again, I don't know if it's humor. I think it's just like other people are tying themselves in knots to like make sure they don't offend specific things.

27:54Kara Swisher:It's shit talking. It's really shit talking.

27:56Ben Collins:It's shit talking. Right, exactly. And I think now that's what you see as well is that the shit talking, the Trump people are in the box now, right? They find themselves in the last few weeks with the Alex Petty murder being like, you can't walk around with a gun and you can't stand in the street. But the Second Amendment is the most important thing. But all this, like, they are just like, they're in the box now.

28:19Kara Swisher:Well, I think they use cruelty as a joke sometimes. And this isn't funny, right? There is a moment where it's not funny. Does that change the way you all think about it? I mean, I thought one of the ones you did recently, a totally different person, Tim Cook, your headlines about Tim Cook were very funny.

28:34Ben Collins:It really depends. There are, we were really cruel to Donald Trump when everyone was really cruel to Donald Trump, right? and I have no problem with it. I'm just going to look up the exact. I think it's a little long. Okay, we wrote this on January 23rd of 2013 and it says, when you're feeling low, just remember I'll be dead in about 15 or 20 years by Donald Trump. And we, yeah, Michael Cohen sent us like a cease and desist letter for that. Oh, kind of ridiculous. I guess we didn't open until he started running for president. We were just sort of like in an envelope somewhere. Now it's framed, obviously.

29:15Kara Swisher:Yeah, the one for Tim Cook was police repeatedly shoot Tim Cook after mistaking iPhone for gun, which, ow.

29:22Ben Collins:Yeah.

29:23Kara Swisher:I laughed and I thought, oh, wow.

29:26Ben Collins:Yeah, yeah. By the way, I think that's an archive poll. I think that one was like 10 years ago. But like, we'll go for it when the situation demands it. Demands it, demands it. Yeah, exactly.

29:37Kara Swisher:But let's pivot a little bit and talk about the bigger picture, of The Onion's vision in the wider media world, because what you're doing is really interesting because it seems to be working. You brought back a print version of The Onion. You've got more than 50 ,000 subscribers, including my son. I didn't know this. He knows everything about The Onion. And you said you wanted to help more publications get into print. Obviously, social media is probably your strongest area in terms of bringing in subscribers, et cetera. Even if it's not necessarily profitable, bottom line, it's a marketing tool, I guess.

30:07Kara Swisher:And there's a lot of comedy out there. So talk about this with a print thing and how you have to balance it with online to stay culturally relevant because a lot of the stuff moves there.

30:17Ben Collins:Yeah. So we brought back the print because we just thought it was – I grew up with the onion in print and getting it on the side of the road felt like stealing something. It felt very cool to have that around. And it's been a miracle. Like jokes are supposed to be read in this way. And I'm not trying to be like one of those like weird vinyl guys who's like, actually, you're supposed to listen to music. I'm not trying to be like that.

30:40Kara Swisher:I hate that guy.

30:42Ben Collins:I know. But if you just keep scrolling through headlines all day and you pop up and we're obviously the funniest thing you see on Instagram, you're still going to forget about it. If it's like a physical object, it works better. So we thought it was going to be successful. We didn't think it was going to be this successful. It's like it is most of our business. We have around 65 ,000 subscribers now. and we are close to having more than the Washington Post in terms of print subscribers. That's our goal for this year.

31:11Kara Swisher:Well, they're actively trying to go down. They're actively trying to go down.

31:18Ben Collins:We didn't think they were going to not be a newspaper anymore, so that was maybe a different goal. But look, another thing we didn't expect is, like your kid is an onion subscriber. It's being used as contraband in schools, and we love it. Like, we keep hearing people stealing it from their kids. He's older.

31:35Kara Swisher:He's 23.

31:36Ben Collins:Oh, okay. I didn't know that. Wait, seriously? Yeah. Oh, my God. Kara, I had no idea.

31:42Kara Swisher:He watches most of everything online. Like, he told me he was watching Frontline. And I was like, oh, PBS. He goes, I don't watch PBS. Like, he watched it on YouTube, obviously. So, he's quite online in his media consumption. But in this, I was surprised. I was interested.

31:56Ben Collins:Yeah, that's great. And, like, I thought he was 14 because that's the thing that keeps happening. Yeah.

32:01Kara Swisher:Well, I had Mad Magazine. Mad Magazine was my version of that.

32:05Ben Collins:Yeah, exactly.

32:06Kara Swisher:Or National Lampoon. Or Cracked. Cracked.

32:08Ben Collins:Cracked is great. Cracked turned out a bunch of incredible, truly remarkable writers.

32:14Kara Swisher:They did. Cracked was amazing because it was sort of meaner than Mad. And Mad was pretty mean. Mad could be pretty mean. Yeah. So most of your revenue comes from print right now, correct?

32:23Ben Collins:Yeah. People pay$100 a year. And we don't have the world's biggest staff. I mean, I think in our lore, I think we have like 500 ,000 employees, but I think we actually have like 30. And then like the other way we make money is brands come to us because no one can speak normal anymore. Everyone relies on AI too much. So they come to us to get their brands to like, we have a copy agency. We get them to talk normal or be funny or whatever. So business is good, but we really, we need people to buy the paper and the paper's great. So people are very happy with it.

33:04Kara Swisher:But online, how important is that to your business? Even if it's not a revenue driver?

33:09Ben Collins:Sure, it's top of funnel. Like we try as much as we can to get as many people to know what the onion is. And we have this weird gap where every teenager knows what it is and every 35 plus person does. But there's this gap in the middle, trying to bridge that gap. and also like to me it's important that people look to us in these moments in these like big national crises for the right like for us to thread a needle like after Charlie Kirk was shot and everyone kept getting fired people were like when are you going to say something about this we had a headline that was report you to be fired for reading this headline about Charlie Kirk and it was just exactly what was needed in that moment yeah you have to wait

33:53Kara Swisher:and have the right thing to do. So another thing, you're still in the middle of trying to buy Alex Jones' site Infowars, but it's on hold for more than a year. As I said, you were a reporter who covered fake news and you're trying to buy one of the biggest spreaders of actual fake news, or at least used to be. I mean, one could say it's trolling, which it is a little bit. Talk about what is happening right now and what your actual goal might be.

34:16Ben Collins:Sure. I don't recommend trying to buy the world's most famous psychopaths website. I think it's a bad idea. However, it's been, you know, it's the fight of our life, I guess. We have, so the San Diego families will basically only sell this thing to us. And it's the only way they're ever going to get money. The lawyers around this case have made lots of money. Al Juntzler has made a lot of money, a lot of money in the four plus years after it was decided that he owes these families$1.5 billion. But they haven't seen the same. They literally have not seen a penny.

34:56Kara Swisher:They have not, yeah.

34:57Ben Collins:So we're trying to get them a penny. And maybe, you know, some recurring pennies over time. I will say we have grand designs if we end up with this thing. Like we really, the comedy world in Hollywood has been really hollowed out. They had several repeated disasters over the last few years between the writer's strike and the pandemic and then the fires. And then they came back and the situation wasn't the same. People who are, you know, the world's best comedy writers are out of work. And the way that we satirize stuff also has to kind of update itself. So I don't want to blow too many things, but if we end up with this thing, which we're hopeful we do, like we're kind of at the mercy of the court, but we're hopeful we do.

35:46Ben Collins:We're going to make it as big a deal as we possibly can. We think this is a very big opportunity.

35:49Kara Swisher:So give me a grand design. The annual Alex Jones Award.

35:55Ben Collins:No. The Oscars, the Alexes. Yeah. There are plenty of people worth mocking that aren't straight news things. The Onion was invented to sort of like be a take on the New York Times. The Onion News Network, which is incredible, and we brought that back too, was a take on CNN, more traditional news. Then we had ClickHole, which we eventually sold, but that was supposed to be like BuzzFeed news stuff. We tend to try to make fun of how people get their information. And right now, people get their information in the most base and stupid ways possible. Like, we're all competing with people who seem to drink paint for a living.

36:33Ben Collins:So nobody has done the widespread take on that. It's not just, obviously, Alex Jones is not the only guy who does that. So we're going to be playing in that space. And there are professionals who are kind of doing it, kind of seem around on your feeds already. We just want to give them a more centralized hub.

36:51Kara Swisher:Oh, interesting. Would you do it again? You're already deep in it, but is it draining to do this?

36:56Ben Collins:It's deeply draining. Like, I've had to learn about bankruptcy law. I don't know anything about this shit.

37:00Kara Swisher:I don't care. So what's your chances of getting?

37:05Ben Collins:It comes down to a bunch of court decisions. But, like, the Supreme Court has already ruled, like, dude, you have no outs.

37:12Kara Swisher:Yeah.

37:13Ben Collins:It's just that everyone's afraid to deal with him because he is, the guy has abused the justice system at every step. And he has, he, anyone who walks in his path, he harasses and harangues. So we're basically purchasing, like, a permanent harassment campaign.

37:29Kara Swisher:Right, right, right. He does it from his car now.

37:31Ben Collins:Yeah, everybody who, everybody gets involved in the process is like, Jesus Christ, why did I do this? look Kara like a couple weeks ago I turned it on turned it on InfoWars after because he's still going just as is after Rene Goode was shot and you had Kyle Rittenhouse on saying that Rene Goode had lost custody of her kids because she was putting cigarettes out on her kids and that he had read that on X and I was like this these motherfuckers are just going to keep doing this forever aren't they like and they're going to make so much money they make so much money doing it

38:03Kara Swisher:yes they are

38:03Ben Collins:and I just think that There just has to be somebody who's just going to say, okay, enough.

38:10Kara Swisher:Enough. Yeah, I agree. Someone was talking about Minnesota, Fall We 1. I'm like, they're going to Ohio next, just so you know. They don't stop. These people do not stop.

38:18Ben Collins:Yeah.

38:18Kara Swisher:Which, do you have any sense when you get an answer?

38:21Ben Collins:I sound like Donald Trump talking about health care. I'm like, oh, it's going to be two weeks. But I've been saying that to my staff for like six months, and they're like, dude, fucking, what are you talking about? They think I'm insane. So at this point, I'm just like, if it happens, it happens. And if it does, we are ready to go. Like, we have had a game plan for us.

38:37Kara Swisher:Yeah, every week is in for a situation.

38:38Ben Collins:Yeah, exactly. So, like, yeah, at some point, by the way, like, we're just, we're going to do this. Like, we can't leave this whole terrain unmade fun of. Yes. So, we're going to press go at some point. Yeah.

38:50Kara Swisher:Okay. So, the Trump administration's not been shy about going after news outlets. Obviously, the un - is clearly satire, so it's a little different. But it's also true that it doesn't matter with these people. So, where's the line? Are you worried about litigiousness from anybody? I mean, basically, the defense is fuck them if they can't take a joke. But is that something that worries you? Because it certainly has affected lots of big news organizations, as you and I know.

39:14Ben Collins:Yeah, look, I'm not saying we're immune to this. In fact, I think we're like explicitly targeted. You know, my girlfriend's been indicted for protesting ICE, federally indicted. She's like one of the only people who've been federally indicted for protesting ICE.

39:27Kara Swisher:Just so people don't know, your girlfriend is Kat Abu Ghazale, a progressive candidate who's running in the Democratic primary for Illinois' ninth congressional district. She's indicted for allegedly conspiring to injure officers during an anti-ICE protest.

39:39Ben Collins:Yeah, she is. And she's the coolest person I know. But just because you're scared doesn't mean you stop doing the thing you're good at.

39:46Kara Swisher:Yep.

39:48Ben Collins:I think it's especially important now where the people who have caved since the start of this, universities, news organizations, everybody who, who is like, okay, sir, what do you need? They just kept stepping on them afterwards. They just kept going. I'm not going to tell this staff to change what they're doing at all. Like they are doing, uh, they're going as hard as they want. Um, and if they come to me with a 50, 50 ball, I say, go for it. Like, and if they come to me with a big idea, I'm like, let's find funding. Let's find a sponsor. Let's find a thing to, that, to make sure that this thing can happen.

40:23Ben Collins:And I just want to, if people get one thing out of this, there are more of us than there are of them. There just are. And that doesn't mean necessarily politically or emotionally. I'm not saying that for you to get through the day. I'm saying that if you're marketing a product, if you're trying to start a business, there are more people who don't like this shit than the opposite. And there's fertile ground. There's a reason the Washington Post is going to die before The Onion, you know, becomes one of the biggest newspapers in the country. It's because they licked the boot and we kicked back.

40:59Kara Swisher:Right, right. That's a really good point. We'll be back in a minute.

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44:13Kara Swisher:Now, a lot of these news organizations that have given in certainly are still doing a lot of good news. And you've been critical, so have I, about legacy media bowing to the administration, to be two soft and powerful people, this centerization. And by the way, I think it was your thread, Bucket of Gravy made me laugh for days. Hiring, this is about CBS News contributors. You're like, Stephen Miller, no, not that one. Wait, we found a third. Very funny. But their work does drive a lot of independent media covers too. And I know it's easy to, they say it's easy to criticize them. I'm like, no, you actually have gone so far in a very bad direction.

44:49Kara Swisher:I'm not so sure it's undeserved. But if you were running a big news organization, what would you do? You are now the head of CBS. What would you do?

45:03Ben Collins:You'd do a much better job. First of all, I would be like, no, thank you.

45:08Kara Swisher:Second of all, that would be one big thing.

45:13Ben Collins:Look, they have dismantled so much. And I don't know if you just hire those people back and be like, trust me, I'm not going to do what just happened. I don't think you can do that. I also, like, I'm, you know, when I was at NBC News, I was a good reporter on my section of the world, but I knew nothing about immigration reporting. And they had incredible immigration reporters. I knew nothing about, they had this woman in Adiel who worked there who was able to effectively make it so UPS. I don't know if you know this, but UPS drivers didn't used to have AC in their cars and they used to drive through the desert.

45:47Ben Collins:She outlined how big people were getting heat stroke and then got them and made sure there was legislation that made sure that these people that happened. Incredible work at these big places if you're given that if you're given some leeway and time to do those sorts of things. All that stuff is going to go away if you hire the three Stephen Millers and a big bucket of gravy to talk about, you know, every like to talk to both sides, literally every single issue. Like it is not a sustainable model. I will say the first place to be brave and step up and be like, no, actually, we're covering this as a fascist administration because we've talked to enough history professors to know that's what's going on.

46:28Ben Collins:And like we're going to we're going to view this through the lens of history. Guess what? You're going to be rich as shit. Like, I know it sounds heavy and hard and they might they might harass you and they might. I get why you wouldn't do it. You might have a kid at Little League, the F.E. at Little League, and your life is going to be harder. But you're doing the right thing, and business will be better. I'm telling you.

46:52Kara Swisher:Yeah, I agree.

46:53Ben Collins:People don't like what's happening. People understand that both sides in this stuff, when people are getting executed on the street, is repugnant. If you just stand up and just report information objectively as it's going on, you're going to be in a good spot.

47:09Kara Swisher:I would agree. It's truthful, not neutral. It's an expression I used from Christiane Amanpour. Do you think a shift is happening after Minnesota? Because I've noticed suddenly all of them, like on CNN, they've got like Wheaties or, you know, like, wait a minute, nicely done. Or Anderson Cooper had a great interview with the lady in the pink coat. Dana Bash is, I'm just using CNN, but I've noticed that not at every organization, but at several of them, it's gotten a little bit better. You know, even the free press called it a lie, finally, to describe the administration's defense of killing and didn't then have a separate editorial saying, what is a lie, really?

47:50Kara Swisher:Was he, you know, should he have been carrying a gun? Whatever. Talk about, do you think that has happened? Do you think there's been like just a fucking second or not?

48:00Ben Collins:I think there's been a sea change. And I think that I think people are starting to realize that a whole entire city of people cannot be paid protesters. It can't be the case. And all of the abject disinformation they see going through their feeds is just not aligning with their realities. I also realize it's more difficult, by the way, because news people are human and they wake up and they go on Twitter or they go on TikTok and they see stuff that isn't. Or, you know, whatever. I don't want to blame TikTok specifically. I do want to blame Twitter. But, you know, whatever feed they have. And they see stuff that is deliberately designed to make them at least upset.

48:43Kara Swisher:Yes, conspiracy. And they're less engaging than those conspiracy theories. And algorithm prioritize that, right?

48:50Ben Collins:Yes. And, you know, news people are not a nerd to this. And it's like just because they're, you know, they're a little bit more aware of the dynamics that's the case. But I don't think they realize how fundamentally, from a structural standpoint, it's designed to help the oppressor here.

49:09Kara Swisher:Right. Absolutely.

49:10Ben Collins:And it all happened so fast that maybe a situation like this, where a man was executed on the street, the administration came out and said he was going to do a mass shooting or something, and everyone knew it was like you could not justify the two realities. People might be waking up to the fact that like, oh, maybe the entire, maybe the pipes are broken.

49:36Kara Swisher:Right, right, right. So what happened with these new organizations? because, you know, in an interview with Molly Jungfest, you said, we're standing in the rubble of what our media ecosystem used to be. The only people who don't see that are that way are the people who own the rubble, which is, I like that idea. I agree with you. The real influence comes with what's next. Now you're backed by a good, I've interviewed him. Your billionaire is good. Like, or is he not bothering you?

50:00Ben Collins:No, he's good. He would also dispute that he's a billionaire. All right, yeah, whatever.

50:05Kara Swisher:He's rich, he's rich. Yeah, he's a rich guy. He's a rich guy with money to earn for this kind of stuff. But, you know, and they do shift on a dime, by the way, just FYI. Also, you're in satire, so you don't have to do fact-checking. You get the juicy bits, I think, right? But most of the new media ecosystem is dependent on the whims of social platforms owned by tech billionaires, many of whom have become really venal fox. At the same time, we don't want news just fed to us by influencers also. And that's why I was joking with your list of CBS contributors, a bucket of gravy. It made me like, exactly.

50:45Kara Swisher:Gravy is what you're getting here, which might be delicious, by the way. I love gravy. Who doesn't love gravy? So good. How do you square that? Now, you're in a fortunate position in many ways.

50:57Ben Collins:There are two major things that I did, I think. And I didn't do it. My staff did. My team did. Everybody here did this. that includes our chief project officer, Danielle Sterlet, and our chief marketing officer, Lila Brilsen, and our whole editorial team. One, we really steeled up, like, this is the process and the onion is its process. So if you come in and break the process, it's not the onion anymore. And the onion's process is you go in, you have 15 joke writers that come in through a long pipeline that start with fellowships and all these other things, and they learn over the course of time what an ideal onion headline is.

51:31Ben Collins:and then every day they come in with 15 headlines and they leave. So that's like 150 to 200 headlines a day. And then they leave with like one or two. That process has to remain in place. And if we deviate from that, we're no longer the onion, just the way it is. So that's one very major thing is making sure editorially it remains the same and you can't mess with that thing. Our editor-in-chief has been here for 30 years. There are people on our staff who, when it was going through the private equity phase, And they were, we have a woman on staff who has an engineering degree from Brown. And she at any moment could have left.

52:07Ben Collins:And she was making like probably like$50 ,000 a year. And she stayed because she believed in this thing. Those people are the onion. And we're going to make sure they're protected. And we're going to make sure that the process that feeds into this makes it so it remains that way forever. And can update and do all those things. And the second thing is you own your own thing. That's why we have a newspaper. Like, I don't think they'll go after the U.S. Postal Service. Isn't it like in the Constitution? They could try. They could try. And it's a pamphlet. Like it feels like a civil war, baby. Like we get to send these things out to people's mailboxes and it feels like a secret.

52:45Kara Swisher:Yeah.

52:46Ben Collins:And that will help us endure. And we're very big into archiving our old archive. we want to make sure that what we do is enduring and like totally separate of these pipelines that

53:00Kara Swisher:are being eaten alive by rich people i've had several really wealthy people they're all interested in media now i don't know if you've noticed or gotten calls but they're like hey i'd love to talk about investing i go i don't want your fucking money and they're like what and i'm

53:12Ben Collins:like i make plenty of money like cara do you even want the washington post anymore do you because like you would have to like call five rich guys and like i don't even know like why would you want

53:20Kara Swisher:Well, because I'd have a lot of them, so none of them would have power. I have a whole scheme to keep them in a position. Are you going to do it? I don't know, but I don't know. No, no, he won't talk to me. What am I talking about? No, he's in business. If I go to, I guess, a fashion week and take some Botox, I suppose I could get to talking to him. He doesn't even fucking want it. He doesn't care.

53:40Ben Collins:Like he doesn't, has no utility to him whatsoever.

53:44Kara Swisher:Actually, I would turn it into a satirical publication at this point. But this one rich guy was like, oh, you don't want to have a talk? I'm like, I don't. Like, thank you. Like, and he's like, why? I go, I don't want to talk to you. Like, I know it sounds dumb, but I just am very happy making money. And when I don't, I'll stop doing it, I guess. But right now.

54:04Ben Collins:Kara, like, I keep talking about this.

54:06Kara Swisher:It's freeing. It's freeing.

54:08Ben Collins:Yes, there are the two economies. It's sort of like what we were talking about with the theater scene earlier. I keep talking about the two economies. It's the economy of the real and then the economy of gambling and speculation and all this extra shit. And I want this company in the economy of the real. I want people to give us dollars for goods and services. I don't want to tie up our fate in like a shit coin. I don't want to come up with the perfect onion AI generator. I don't want any of this shit. I just want people to – I want to live in the human world with us. And trust me, Kara, that's clearly what's going on right now.

54:45Ben Collins:Right, it is. There is a split right now between like real money and a real economy and human connection. And then whatever the fuck this other thing is, which is much bigger, but much worse.

54:55Kara Swisher:So if five years to me, how do you think the media business will look? When I get asked that question, I always get asked, I was like, I'll do something else. Like I didn't know I was going to do podcasting 10 years ago, and that worked out rather well. And then we just did this tour that worked out rather well. I don't know. And when I get to the answer, I'm like, we're going to keep making stuff people want to buy. Like, I don't know what else to say. Like, that's the answer. And so I don't know what it'll be. Like, I just announced this documentary for CNN on longevity. I'm like, oh, this could have some legs, right?

55:25Kara Swisher:You know what I mean? This idea. I'm bullish on the future of media, especially independent media. What do you think it looks like in five years? Or what would you see the onion being in five years?

55:35Ben Collins:Yeah, I think a big change for me personally is over the last couple of years, I went from like all of my childhood media dreams are gone and my dreams are dead to all my childhood media dreams are gone and my dreams are dead. Like I get to live in this new, cool, functional thing that is like that allows me a lot more agency and everything's a little bit better. And you're happier. I'm okay with this. And I'm so much happier. Like, we are allowed to say what we want to say. And, you know, Kara, there's never, like, there's never going to be a world where people don't seek out, like, gossip and information and the funniest sentence and connection.

56:17Ben Collins:That's just never, that's never going to exist. And I actually think that that's a fundamental problem that's going on. is that the world's richest people think that they don't need that. Like they're building humanoid robots and they're building all of these compliment machines that tell them exactly what they want to feel and how they want to act. And everyone else is like, I don't, I have no desire for that. I want to hang out with my friends. I want them to yell at me and, you know, tell me I'm stupid and then hug me and go to my funeral. Like that's what I want to happen. And they don't care about that.

56:53Ben Collins:And that's all of the money, all like the big amounts of like seemingly fake money seems to be going towards this like disconnect stuff that people don't want. People really want this connection. And I think in the next five years, like you can see where it's all headed. People are starting to come back together to be like, ah, I want a funny person to say a funny sentence to me.

57:15Kara Swisher:Or I want to hang out with friends. You know, one of the positives from this Minnesota thing is Minneapolis has rediscovered community. So cool. You know, I think it's a terrible way to do it. But I think a lot of people are rediscovering community and how easy it is to pull away from some of this stuff, which is there's no mistaking why these tech billionaires want to buy these things. It's because they don't like the insults they get from people like you or I, you know, and they want to control it. But you can't control it. That's the whole thing. So on the last question, earlier you talked about how when it comes to disinformation, the people who spread it aren't going to stop.

57:48Kara Swisher:I agree with you. There is too much money in it. You're trying to combat that. I'm trying to get back at that, but even if most of us don't want that, give people an idea of what you do to fight it from your perspective.

58:00Ben Collins:Yeah, I hate to keep bringing Minneapolis back into this, but it really is, it's community and all that stuff and living in the real. You know, we've worked ourselves into a froth in this country over the last 10 years, blaming immigrants for everything. taking uh taking videos that turns out it largely aren't real like they're eating the cats and dogs

58:26Kara Swisher:kind of stuff um that's next week by the way they're going for that there you go yep they're

58:31Ben Collins:going to sprinkle right like turning them into moral panics and then trying to punish these fake things they're trying to punish things that don't exist um and now we're on the other side of where the dog caught the car. Apparently the dogs that we were eating caught the car. And we're doing Gestapo shit to every immigrant in this country and everybody who stands in their way. And guess what? The economy's not fixed. Your life's not better. You don't feel any better. All these people who thought the world was going to get fixed once they got all the brown people out of their line of sight. Turns out everything's worse.

59:09Ben Collins:Everything still costs way too much. Culture got worse. you are not respected. And you're an asshole. And you're a fucking asshole. So I am hopeful since the dog caught the car that people will just, like, I don't think everybody comes to this conclusion immediately. Some people just stay in it forever, and that's the thing that I've realized, is that some people like to be upset, and they like to complain about shit. It's fine. But I hope when the people who like to be upset complain about shit can start complaining about the guy next door who sucks, like the fictitious thing that we all have to kill, I kind of already think that's happening.

59:46Ben Collins:Young people are a nerd to this. Young people have lived through this entirely. All they know is people blaming a fictitious thing and their life not getting better. My hope is, and I know I can see it everywhere, they're rediscovering community, they're rediscovering each other. I'm not one of those people who is a touch grass person who thinks that, like, I'm not a crunchy granola guy. No, I get it. And I think a lot of this can be accomplished and will be accomplished on the actual internet. I think, like, it's smaller communities on the internet doing stuff separate of scale. But it's about talking to each other and making art for the sake of art, like, not for the sake of anything else.

1:00:31Ben Collins:Like, I just want to make one thing clear, by the way. The Onion does not use AI. Our AI is a guy named Carl who does awesome Photoshop. He's great. He's wearing beanies on the other side of the store right now.

1:00:41Kara Swisher:You can use it in your advertising placing.

1:00:43Ben Collins:Yeah, you're right. Sure. Look, I'm not saying AI has no purpose, but for us—

1:00:47Kara Swisher:You mean in the creative process.

1:00:49Ben Collins:Yeah, it's like Soylent or like hot dogs or something. It's just like this amalgamation. It's calories, but like it's not— Every now and then it's funny.

1:00:57Kara Swisher:Every now and then it does something good, I have to say. But not much. Not much. Not compared to people. Yeah. And what's really ironic in this moment is all these people who are talking about how nobody could be funny anymore. They've never been funny a day in their lives. And fuck them if they can't take a joke. They've never been funny.

1:01:13Ben Collins:I've seen some of the funniest shit in my life over the last couple of years. The people who can't seem to find humor and who seem to be upset all the time about not being able to say one specific word. They even found the new words that are much funnier. We're living in a golden age. and you'll see it. Once you look back on it, you'll figure that out comedy-wise. We're not living our golden age of anything else.

1:01:34Kara Swisher:Yeah. Anyway, Ben, thank you so much. I love The Onion. Everyone should subscribe. It's really funny. It's just really funny. It makes me laugh all the time and we could all use a good laugh. Thank you.

1:01:44Ben Collins:Care, big fan. Keep doing what you're doing.

1:01:52Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Michelle Alloy, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following this show, you're building community and laughing with friends. If not, you're angry because you're the butt of the joke or Elon Musk. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Box Media Podcast Network, and us.

1:02:25Kara Swisher:We'll be back on Thursday with more.

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