The WNBA Is On a Winning Streak. Is It Sustainable?

20:24Kara Swisher:What was the difficulty of coming to it? Well, there was tension. but every collective bargaining negotiation is unpleasant by nature. I think this one had its fair share of drama. I mean, there were missed deadlines and all of it was also very well reported. So, you know, is there, is there anything new to report? I think it took a long time because we were negotiating an entirely new economic model. But, you know, if you asked me, did I, you know, did I think that the, that we might've had a work stoppage? I mean, I, you know, There was a lot of tension. I think both sides knew what was at stake.

20:58There was so much momentum that we had built in the league that it wouldn't have been good for owners or players to have a work stoppage. I think the stress was really more around the edges, kind of like preseason, training camp deadlines, just the compressed ramp up to the season. That's what was stressful. Which is the point.

21:15Kara Swisher:And that did happen. Right. When you think about things you'd like to see more of, is there something that was left on the table you wish the owners had gotten? or the players or? I'm really happy we have a collaborative model and that we're incentivized to work together because I think the alignment is essential. Between players. Layers and owners. Players and owners, yeah. Which is hard for the old economics of it, which is I'm paying you run or throw the ball or something. Right. Do you think that is going to be replicated elsewhere around the sports world? I think so. I do. Talk about why that's important.

21:50Kara Swisher:I mean, it's happening in media now. It's the kind of deal I have. or talk about how, because one of the things that I recall saying, I have no incentive to do anything else to help you make more money because, but how could that articulate itself in sports? Well, first of all, it is, the NBA has a bit of that model. So it's already sort of standing for some leagues. And so I think this is going to be a precedent for other major professional women's sports leagues. And the only one that's close to us in size is the NWSL. So I can see their unions taking some notes from this. So the WNBA league ownership is divided.

22:32Kara Swisher:The NBA owns 42%, team owners own 42%, and outside investors own the remaining 16%. Explain how the ownership of league makes internal decisions when it comes to things like CBA or expanding the league, because you're dealing with a lot of stakeholders. Yeah. And obviously not everyone is going to see eye to eye. Right. Well, that's a big question. I think the way we work with the NBA is it's a collaborative kind of relationship. But the WNBA makes its own decisions, but in consultation, because we do use some of the infrastructure of the NBA. But certainly, and as the WNBA gets more self-sustaining on its own, it's natural, of course, that it's going to have more independence.

23:14But, you know, in the early days, the NBA was essential to the survival of this league. I mean, it really sustained it and subsidized it for a long time. And I still think that there are some advantages of being tied to the NBA, this media deal, like we did it together. And I think that it also, you know, when you have, we play in the summer, the NBA plays in the winter, and you can offer a year round package to a media partner. I mean, there's a lot of strengths, right, in having a united front together. You know, we also have some other shareholders and, you know, something like that. I think it's important to say that not that long ago, this league was really struggling and it needed outside capital to grow.

23:54And so when you need capital and you want someone to share that risk, it means you have to share the upside when that happens. So that's a trade-off that every league that's growing has to think about. And in our case, the NBA really created and sustained the league and was a big part of where we are today. And the outside capital providers also provided us capital that we needed to grow. And is another structure possible? I mean, I think the question really is thinking about that if you were going to change your structure, you would have to buy people out at market value. And the market value has increased significantly.

24:33has increased.

24:33Kara Swisher:Do you see that happening or does it? I think there's discussions. You know, we had a lot of things to get done before we could have that discussion. Like the CBA. Right, the CBA, which is through. But also the WNBA Board of Governors recently approved expansion teams in Detroit, Cleveland, and Philadelphia. In a post on that website, sports writer and podcast host Bill Simmons called the move, quote, staggeringly stupid and unapologetic money grab that will immediately make the league worse, end quote. I don't see that at all. Okay. Some critics argues expansion dilutes the talent. Explain the strategy and why is Bill Simmons wrong?

25:07Kara Swisher:And by the way, Bill Simmons sometimes is wrong, but never in doubt. So I think expansion is really good for the league. I think that it's new markets, it's more games, it's more fans, it's more content. And ultimately, it's going to increase media value and it's going to allow us to have better media packages. And that's really important for this league. I mean, we need to grow the fan base. And I don't really worry about diluting the talent because those of you who follow the WNBA know that so many people that go to training camp or who get drafted even, like, are cut from the team before the first game starts.

25:47And so, you know, we actually need to have - You think there's a pipeline of talent? There is a pipeline of talent.

25:51Kara Swisher:Right, right. Take his side. What would be the best argument against expanding even more? And These are terrific cities. These are sports cities, by the way. And also, I mean, the only thing is if they wouldn't invest and they didn't actually market the stars and do everything that you needed or if he felt like the fans weren't there. But all the metrics are consistently pointing in the other direction, that the fans are there. They want it. The investors want to invest. I think actually the league was only looking for one expansion team and there were 13 bids and they were so strong that they took three.

26:25Right, right. And certainly could expand even more. Do you see that happening? I think I like the pace we're at because, you know, we've got these expansion drafts. And yes, it is true. You know, we've taken a long time to build our roster. And then we have to we can't protect everybody. So some people go and it's very difficult. So I think that we have to phase it. And we are. So, you know, there's two new teams coming on this year. And then the other the other teams will come just year by year. Year by year. So that it builds over time. It builds over time.

26:57Kara Swisher:So the WNBA also signed, as you said, a record$2.2 billion, 11-year media rights deal with broadcasters in 2024. Nobel laureate Claudia Golden advised the WNBA Players Union on the new collective bargaining agreement. She believed the television deal should have brought in more for the WNBA as a comparison to the NBA's deal with the same partners. It was around$75 billion. Why are the men's rights worth 34 times the women's rights? Can I say I will just get to the chase and say this is why we're poised to grow. Right. Because the revenues on the women's sports haven't caught up with the viewership.

27:33And that's the investment opportunity. Because it is true. Like the WNBA viewership is a meaningful fraction of the NBA's viewership. But we are a tiny fraction of the media deal. Right. Right. So and by the way, you know, we don't have to get to the size of the NBA. Just even even a little bit of an increase is going to create enormous value. So that's why I just think women's sports in general is a great investment opportunity, because women's sports in general have been underinvested in and under monetized with respect to the level of talent and the fan engagement, frankly, that there is.

28:11Kara Swisher:And besides the TV deals and the fans and the merch and the various sponsorships that you have, where do you, is there another monetization opportunity? Absolutely global. We'll talk about that. But before I do that, I want to make sure that I make this point about why I think media rights will continue to grow. And I think it's because live sports, I think, is going to become increasingly valuable. Because in a world where content is becoming infinite, AI is making sure that content is abundant, infinite, and predictable. Live sports is the opposite of that. Like live sports is by nature finite, and it's also unpredictable.

28:52Right. Like the recent college games. And the fact that it's unpredictable and anything can happen, that creates emotional investment, emotional connection among the fans. Very good point. And so the fact that the world is becoming flooded with content, that really just increases the value of live sports. Right. So I think what that means for team owners is we're going to see it in two places. We're going to see more people coming to the building to go to games, but we're also going to see more people watching. So I just think that there's rising demand and limited supply, and that's why I'm very positive on the future.

29:29Kara Swisher:I'm going to ask about the Human Performance Alliance in a second, but how do you look at technology in that? Obviously, everyone's talking about AI, and maybe the use of it isn't as big as the hype necessarily at this point. I remember interviewing people years ago, two decades ago, oh, it's going to be in all the seats. Technology is the most important part. What do you think is promising, and what do you're like, let's take a second? I think it's important to be up on the latest technology. And, you know, we're getting people are coming to us with all sorts of technology all the time. I think that the last place that we put it in our arena, we have like facial recognition.

30:04Right. So you can actually get into the arena faster based on. OK. And so that's really good for operations and like your flow. Sure. There are some arenas like Steve Ballmer's arena. Like that one is really kitted out and you can, I think you can also vote from your seat and do all these things. I don't know. I think it's important. But right now we're leaning heavily into the live experience and the energy in the building. I mean, I don't want to I feel like, you know, people come to games now, not just for the competition on the court, but they come because they want community and they want to feel connection.

30:42They want to be part of a live experience. And I think that's also like, you know, and I think for us, if you go to a Liberty game, you know, you feel people are super engaged and the energy, the energy is really high. And that's really driven by the fans. Like the fans are, you know, they're there, they're loud. They really know the game. And when people go and they experience that, that's what makes them feel like they want to be a part of that experience. And so, you know, we're really leaning into the play and the competition on the court, the fan experience, creating some energy that's going to draw people in.

31:17Ellie and all of our mascots, all of our entertainment is really built to create an experience that people can relate to. Within the arena.

31:25Kara Swisher:Within the arena. What's been brought to you? Because you see all I get pitched tons and tons of stuff. And what do you look at that you are intrigued by? And what do you look at and say, especially the technological things, get the fuck out of here. Like, get out of my office. I would love, you know, an AI person to help a ticket salesperson to know this person and be able to say all the right things that the person's going to convert and buy a season ticket. You know, that I think is really valuable. But not an AI person talking to that person, right? No, I hope not. But, you know, somebody in your ears who can say like this is...

32:01So it's all back end is how you look at it, but not within the experience itself. No, I mean, we don't, you know, we still have human people like serving you and pouring your drink. Mm-hmm.

32:12Kara Swisher:No robots for you? No. No? Not yet. Elon Musk said there's going to be a million of them deployed this year. I've seen them. They're in airports. Yeah. Making coffee. Yeah. And? I do. I'm a Chemex pour over girl. I'm old fashioned. Okay. All right. We'll be back in a minute.

32:45Kara Swisher:Hi, everyone. I want to tell you about a new podcast from Vox called America Actually. It's hosted by political journalists and someone I really admire, Ested Herndon. And the show asks the questions, what will America look like after Donald Trump? Kids, there will be an after Donald Trump. Trump's been running a one-man show for over a decade, but we're heading towards the first open presidential election since 2016. And it'll play out in a country that will feel very different. America actually digs deep into the questions that you and your friends are asking about politics, culture and economy by an expert, reporter Estad.

33:21Kara Swisher:It'll map out the people and ideas that will shape the future beyond Trump. You can watch America Actually on the Vox YouTube channel and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

33:36Kara Swisher:So let's talk about the Human Performance Alliance and then we'll get to a couple questions from the audience before we go. It's a major research initiative you launched in 2021. This is a six university scientific collaboration focusing on the study of the human body. It's healthiest working with top athletes. I just debuted a show on CNN called Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever about longevity. Some of it's charlatanism, some of it's misinformation, and then what's really promising. So why do you decide to take this approach? Because most people aren't elite athletes. Some of the research probably just applies only to top athletes.

34:08Kara Swisher:But does it help the broader population? Talk a little bit about what you're doing here. And I appreciate your scientific focus. Yeah. So the Human Performance Alliance is a scientific research initiative. And it's focused on understanding how the body performs. So how the body moves, adapts, recovers, fatigues over time. And we study people at peak health in top form in order to understand what drives performance and also what leads to injury. Okay. And so the reason that we started this is because as team owners, you see athletes sideline and you see the cost of sideline athletes and you realize that there's so little about the human body that you know.

34:55And for these professional athletes, their career longevity, their health, their health and their performance and their longevity is their greatest asset. So we thought, okay, well, here's an opportunity to invest in research around injury prevention and rehabilitation and recovery, not just to extend the careers of pro athletes. But then we could learn some principles that could also translate into that word health span, to a better health span for everybody. Right, health span versus lifespan.

35:27Kara Swisher:Right, because all this stuff we learned. There's a big delta. Yes, there is. It's 15 years. Right. So when you study healthy people, then there are a lot of implications and things that we can gain in the areas of performance and also recovery and ultimately longevity. It will help people stave off chronic pain. Anyway, by the way, a lot of the stuff we're doing is around prediction, like predicting injury or individualized training. That's exactly where it's going. That's where it's going. And all that is going to help athletes, but it's going to help all of us. Right. You know, this organ clock thing that you can tell, eventually you'll be able to say, your liver, you will get liver cancer at 52, and this is what will precipitate.

36:09Kara Swisher:I mean, that's the goal. But each organ, not the body as a whole. But only about 6 % of sports science research is conducted exclusively on women, despite a dramatic rise in women's sports in the past 50 years. The Alliance's female athlete-focused program is attempting to address that gap. There's no one in this lane, essentially. Talk about what you've learned overall, and then specifically with women. how will the new research be applied? How long before you get things that are applicable in prevention and treatment? A while, but that's because, you know, we're starting with the research because as you noticed, I'm, you know, you've, in the series that you've done, a lot of people are starting to peddle protocols and supplements, you know, before the science is complete.

36:54Yes, wellness rifters is what I call them. So we're starting with the science and making sure that we're doing the clinical studies where we can really... The gold standard. Yeah, right. But the goal, though, is translation, right? And we want to have protocols and therapeutics and tools that will help athletes and you and me, right? But how long is that delta? I mean, it can be a long time. So this is for the long term. It is long term. But if you want to do it right... Correct. That's the way it has to be.

37:26Kara Swisher:Yes. You're never going to make it on Instagram, Clara. But go ahead. I don't have Instagram. I know. Teasing you. So I would say like, so we're five years into this 10 year commitment. And I can tell you that, you know, what I've learned in five years is informing how I want to spend the next five years of the Alliance. And I think there's like, for me, three big unsolved challenges. One is predicting injury before it happens, because right now we're reactive and we treat afterward. And so now we're full on into building the digital twin, right? A digital twin that can tell you what is going to happen to your body before it happens and what to do about it.

38:04So replacing sick care with health care. But go ahead. Yeah. OK. This is predictive and leading to prevention. And the second unsolved challenge is this personalized exercise medicine or individualized training and recovery protocols. Because right now, most training prescriptions, well, they're based on population averages. And so we eventually have to get to this point where, and we are there because we have scientists at Salk Institutes that are studying molecules that regulate, you know, like nutrition and fatigue and metabolism. And so we're getting to this place where you'll be able to tell each individual person what exercise they need to do at what time of day with what kind of recovery.

38:46So that's another area. And the third big unsolved challenge is this data gap, this gender gap in human physiology knowledge. Because as you pointed out, I mean, women's sports is growing so fast and the science and the research is just catching up. But, you know, you see that because so much of the sport science has been done on men and then just transferred to women, it's why we don't understand why menstrual cycles and hormones, we don't understand like what the impact of that is on performance and recovery. And we also don't understand why some injuries like ACL tears or bone stress fractures happen more to women than men.

39:25And so we basically need more data on female athlete physiology and ultimately so that we can have better precision models for women because otherwise they won't be very accurate.

39:35Kara Swisher:Right, right. It's absolutely true. It's amazing. And at 10 years you will renew or? We'll see. We'll see. what you get out of practical things. All right, we have some questions from the audience, and I have a final question. When will the NBA play its first regular season games overseas? Is that provided for in the CBA? First of all, yeah, I didn't talk about global. And global is early for the WNBA because we have so much domestic growth ahead of us. We have these two new teams coming on this year and three more. But it's early, but it's sizable and really important. So, I mean, first of all, Toronto is starting this year.

40:11So that's global. That's our first international game. I think WNBA Europe, they're asking specifically. Yeah, WNBA Europe. That's I mean, they're only doing NBA Europe right now. But I can see that further on in the distance. I think, you know, the immediate goals would be to start getting some global media distribution and to really start promoting the stars globally. And naturally, it's going to be foreign players who play in this league. I think right now there's 23 % of the players in our league are foreign born. In the NBA, it's 30%. And you can see how global the NBA is right now. So, you know, we're, we're there, we're on our way.

40:49I think that percentage of foreign talent is going to grow. And so I think it's really about promoting the international stars in their home countries, but it's also, you know, globalizing the stars that are here.

41:03Kara Swisher:So Canada. All right. When you see the NBA season expanding beyond the number of games negotiated in the CBA, how do you feel about players playing overseas or elsewhere in the offseason? Well, this CBA allows us to get to 52 games per year. We're at 44. I think one of the great things about this CBA is it is going to allow players to actually build a career in the WNBA. Like fewer will have to go overseas to make a living. And that's really good because they can stay in market, they can be in front of fans, and they can work on their own development. So I think that the fact that the salary has gone up has given players a lot more choices.

41:51Her question was, or this question was, will there be other... Play off season, how do you feel? Yeah. How do I feel? Well, I like players to stay in market. I like them to stay in the U.S. because it keeps our players in front of fans. Unrivaled is an example of a league that's well run. And it's it's.

42:13Kara Swisher:Does the new salary cap and media deal imply a fall off of the Unrivaled League or not? No. That's a question here. It's a question for a player. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Let me. This is something to do with both the NBA. Two questions. This is one. What is the main challenge in navigating a WNBA team versus an NBA team? Are there distinct differences? And then if Liberty is in a growth mode, where are the nets? How are you reinvigorating the team after years of rebuilding? Well, the WNBA is so energizing right now because we're in growth mode and you're building something and you can innovate and do things that have never been done.

42:53You're building new audiences. So, you know, that's very exciting. You know, you can try things that you haven't done in the NBA. OK. And so on the NBA side, the talent is incredible. You know, again, like you see it in the college level. And so I think it's really personally, I think it's really exciting when you have young players, you know, like we are in a rebuild year. But I think a lot of our fans are trained in the NBA to be really patient. They're really loyal to the team, but they understand. And they also see models. They see the Oklahoma City Thunder, and they can see how when you rebuild with young stars that you've drafted, you can actually create a championship team.

43:32And your fans are, you know, they see that, and they believe that's possible for your team as well. So that's what we're doing. We've been pretty open about it, about wanting to draft well this year. And, you know, we have players that we drafted last year that are really strong. And we're looking, you know, for both of our teams, we're looking for the long term.

43:53Kara Swisher:All right. One more question. The audience is that they sort of belong together, too. How do you engage audiences authentically through cultural sensitivity when looking at growing the audience and and bringing any presumably younger people? And then Ellie, the elephant is iconic. Who deserves credit for the liberty having the best mascot in any league? Talk about that idea of cultural sense that when growing this audience, because you want more. We do, but you know, we're based in Brooklyn and we made a decision to have all of our entertainment and our team really rooted in Brooklyn culture. And Brooklyn is a place where 200 languages are spoken.

44:29It is. And it's one of the most diverse places in the country, if not the planet. So, you know, when you lean into Brooklyn culture, you know, all of our theme nights and our timeless torches and everything we have around the game really reflects the spirit of the borough. So we're very intentional about that. And because we can do that, because Brooklyn is so diverse, we naturally promote diversity. Ellie is, you know, she's connective tissue. I mean, she's part of, you know, I think I was saying earlier about how people come to sports games to connect with people and to have a joyful experience.

45:06And I think Ellie has this, she has charisma and she has personality. And she's one of the reasons why she creates that joyful atmosphere that people kind of associate now with the Liberty Games. Liberty Games. So she's really important.

45:19Kara Swisher:They are a lot of fun. I was joking. Clara was asking. Adam Silver apparently told her I didn't like sports. And it's actually factual. And at the same time, I love the business of sports. And I like the elephant quite a bit. I enjoy it. I like everything else except the game. Well, now there's so much. See, that's the thing. Also, your food and candy is on point. Right. So that's exactly it. So Ellie bridges that. She actually bridges that traditional sports fan, you know, and the more casual fan. Yeah, exactly. So last question. We're in a moment when investment is converging with growing fan base and public enthusiasm.

45:54Kara Swisher:How does the excitement around women's sports become a sustainable long-term commitment, not just a trend? How should everyone, the front office, coaches, owners, and players take advantage of the momentum while staying true to the values? What is the thing you think about most? Because you want it to be for the long term, as you noted. Yeah, but I don't think it's a bubble at all. I think women's sports is moving to a re-rating because I do feel that women's sports has been under-invested in and under-monetized. And so I think that there's a real opportunity as revenues catch up. So I think, but it is important that we price to value.

46:29But I also think that for all the reasons I mentioned about, well, this unique, the young audience that comes to our games that all the advertisers and media want to reach, all the sponsors want to reach. I mean, you know, that's, and also what I mentioned about why live sports is so valuable. I mean, I think that there's, there's reasons why revenue should grow that are beyond, you know, like macro trends that I think make this an exciting place to be. Yeah. But I also want to mention that, you know, like sophisticated capital is coming in to this area as well. And there are these dedicated funds that invest only in women's sports.

47:05And so that in itself is also just showing that, you know, that it's being underwritten as its own asset class.

47:11Kara Swisher:Right. Well, thank you so much for talking about this. This is a great interview. Clara Wusai, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. Thank you.

47:47Kara Swisher:Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester, Sam Lee, and Julia Sharp Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, that's a slam dunk. If not, we're calling a flagrant foul. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.