Unpacking the Myth of John F. Kennedy Jr.

19:39Kara Swisher:No, most Americans. And they all seem to be trying to be like influencers. And I notice they're all cursing now ever since Trump cursed. And now it's given free reign. So they're like being like, you know, like a real person down to earth because they're saying like a lot of fucks and stuff. But like, I don't know. I don't think our country needs that. I think we need a president to lift us up, to be aspirational, to be someone that we can't really relate to or identify with. That's what I think this country needs. Do you think that's going to go back to that? Because they're not interesting enough, right?

20:13Kara Swisher:Yeah. No, yeah. I think, you know, our country is very well entertained and not well informed. That's a really good way of putting it. We'll be back in a minute.

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22:42Kara Swisher:So every episode we get an expert send us a question. Let's hear yours. I'm Sasha Eisenberg, a journalist and author of books including The Engagement. I worked at George as an intern, and I think a lot about how the magazine would cover Washington today. On one hand, John was farsighted in recognizing the collision of pop culture and politics that produced Trump. On the other hand, he was obsessed with the idea of bringing out the fun in politics in a way that maybe made sense in the low-stakes 1990s, but seems unimaginable now. So my question for Gary and Carol is, what would George look like if it had survived into the Trump era?

23:15Kara Swisher:All right, let's hear from both of you, Gary. Well, first of all, Sasha was one of John's absolute favorite editors. He came as a 15-year-old, ninth grader. John Somme literally ran after him down the street and said, you've got to come work here. And he was a total superstar. So it's nice to hear such a voice. I'm glad we picked one. Yeah, listen, I mean, John was ahead of his time in seeing that collision between politics and popular culture. I mean, he would, I think, you know, Donald Trump is the absolute embodiment of that. And I think George would be thriving today, actually, because it hit the moment really 25 years too early.

23:50Kara Swisher:And in what way? What would be on the cover right now? Oh, man, there's so much material, right? Right. I mean, you pick it. You could be on the cover, Carol. No, no, thank you. No, I don't think it would sell many copies. Just as George Washington? No, no, thank you. You don't want to see my midriff. What do you think, Carol? No, I think it would. I mean, you know, he died right at the beginning of what became the digital age. And I just think that the transformation, the segue to digital age, I think, if that was made and made well and made right, I think George would be one of the biggest magazines or whatever they're called now because I don't think they're magazines.

24:26Kara Swisher:But he'd have a big imprint. Yeah. Would it be more sharper-edged and partisan now? It'd have to be. Yeah. I think it would have to be. Right. That's exactly where I was going to go. It wouldn't be like right-wing or progressive. A little like South Park. Satire. Yeah. He'd have, exactly, and he'd have really a mix. You know, he'd have AOC on the cover, and then he'd have. And then he'd have Peter Thiel. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. You just noted what is a magazine now. Yeah. What would he start today if he was doing that? He wouldn't start a magazine. Who starts a magazine? He'd start a media company.

25:03Kara Swisher:He'd have a podcast. Right. He'd have a podcast. He'd do video. He'd do. He would be digital. Unless he was running for president or had been president. He'd be a retired president. He'd be a former president. He'd be a retired president. You think? No, he's only 65. Yeah, but he'd be longer. Anyway, his time would have been late 2008, 2012. Who knows? I mean, look, everything had to go right. Can you imagine that? No. Well, he still can be president because, as you know, Maga thinks he's a lot. I know. You know, even I, it's so, it's really menacing and disturbing. I get pictures from DMs, from people circling, like, these rallies and saying, this is John.

25:41Kara Swisher:And then sometimes they circle some other guy in the audience and they claim it's Anthony. It's really fucking disturbing. This is your husband. Like, this is my husband who I buried and my cousin and friends. For people to say that, for people to believe it, it's insane. What do you do when that happens? I delete and block and report. Right. I mean, I've blocked so many. You don't respond to anybody. Absolutely not. Yeah. Absolutely not. Why do you think people do that, especially with John? Why John? I mean, obviously, Bill Gates is putting chips in our head. Everyone has their own little conspiracy theory attached to them, but it's only a few people.

26:17Kara Swisher:They want to latch on to the legacy of John and the glamour of him and sort of attach that to Donald Trump. And, you know, there was a couple of pictures. You know, John obviously being in the magazine business in the 90s, new Donald Trump. There's a couple pictures. And they just want to use that. I don't know who started it, but it's really disturbing. Creepy. No, it's so creepy. And to send it to me and his family, it's just, I don't know, these people are just crazy. Yes, indeed. They are. And mean. It's mean. That one's inexplicable. Others you can trace. I get the Bill Gates one. I get that because he gave so much money to vaccines, et cetera.

26:54Kara Swisher:And then it links with the vaccine. Vaccines. By the way, I just got my measles vaccine. Oh, again, because it didn't work, right? It didn't work because I was in the 60s. In the 60s, right. So I got it tested. As soon as RFK got that position, I was like, I'm not, fuck that. I'm not depending on him for anything. And sure enough, I had no antibodies. So I, like, last week got my vaccine. Good. I'm very glad about that. So let's talk about this sort of continuing obsession with JFK Jr. Here you are making a documentary many decades later. What it says about us as a culture. One of the things documentary doesn't get into, as we said, the post-mortem role in the QAnon canon.

27:35Kara Swisher:It's too, as we said, it's too nutty to explain. But they think he's alive just so people didn't know what we were just referencing. And a QAnon adherent had bought the copyright to George magazine and revived it. It now exists as a funhouse mirror version of the original magazine. Talk a little bit about this, Gary. It's disturbing to say the least. I mean, what happened was Hearst bought Hachette's magazines, I don't know how many years ago, and decided obviously not to publish the magazine again. So the trademark just went into the public domain and QAnon bought it. And no one was following it?

28:07No one.

28:08Kara Swisher:Why didn't you know about it? I had no idea. Gary? I wasn't an owner of... What's Gary? It's all my fault. Gary! Believe me, I heard from a lot of people, like, how did this happen? But, you know, who knew that the trademark was sitting at Hearst? The QAnon people know. It was on a market, and they just, they saw it. They probably bid a dollar, and they got it. Yeah. No, it's terrible. And a lot of people are deeply and rightfully disturbed by it. And there's nothing can be done about it? No. No. They bought it. They bought it. Well, you can be bought back from them. Who's going to buy it back?

28:38Kara Swisher:Well, I don't know, but it's just, it's really, I mean, that is John's legacy. No, it's terrible. And that's in part why I think, at least I participated in this particular documentary, because it was so important to John. Yeah. One of the other people who's also very outspoken is Jack Schlossberg, who's JFK's 32-year-old grandson. And JFK Jr.'s nephew himself looks quite a lot like him. He does. I think he does. And he's actually deep into sort of developing his troll presence online. He's quite good at it. But on Jen Psaki's podcast, he said, quote, I think the Internet is a place where it's difficult to break through, especially if you're not saying something that's controversially somehow unexpected.

29:16Kara Swisher:Talk about what he's doing. I'm just curious. Do you talk to him about it? I've texted with him a number of times. Oh, I mean, I don't. To be honest, I haven't seen him since he was a little boy. But I have seen the TikToks and some of the Instagram stuff. And, you know, I think everyone expresses themselves in a certain way. I mean, he's very Gen Z millennial. I don't know. And he does it. He does it well. And he's really, I mean, he's so brave. Obviously, I went on this reality show, and it was nothing compared to going on TikTok now and talking your mind about what you—and really pissing people off.

29:54I've known him this whole life. Incredibly well-educated. He can do pretty much whatever he wants. It's interesting what he's doing now and making a name for himself. and I hope he uses it now to, you could have a brilliant future or whatever he decides to do.

30:08Kara Swisher:Yeah, he's a little trolling. He actually asked me, I said, you need to go away for a minute. Like, you're a little too there. But he's probably right that you don't need to go away. Would that have been the inevitable evolution of George, that kind of thing? I can't see. Trolling? No, it's not John. I mean, that was not his style. No, no. But, I mean, it's just hard to... It's hard to imagine. It's hard to imagine. Right. You know... Tweeting. Tweeting. or being on TikTok. Like, I do see Jack on TikTok, and I'm like, okay, you know, he's definitely got that personality. But I can't imagine. He was more long form.

30:43Kara Swisher:He was long form. Yeah. In a short form era. In a short form era. In a snackable era, right? Not sure it would have worked today. Yeah. Yeah, no, it didn't. It wouldn't. Another thing, Ryan Murphy is producing a series about JFK Jr. and Carolyn called American Love Story. Their lives often get the true crime treatment. Every channel you can think of has done sort of cheap recreation of the accident and what happened. I'd love to know how you all feel about these shows because it sort of seems like mining them for entertainment in some way. You know, the unfortunate thing about these shows, these like all these, like Ryan McMurphy.

31:16Kara Swisher:McMurphy. McMurphy. I was an intern at the Washington Post with him, by the way. Were you really? Yeah. Interesting. He was a pain in the ass then. He was just the same. Well, I mean, he's in the volume business, too, like McDonald's. But, no, I think people watch those shows and they think it's – then that narrative becomes the story and that becomes – Like with the social network and Mark Zuckerberg. Yes. That's why it's good that we came out first, don't you think? Well, I mean, it is another reason why I did participate in this to get more of the real story and more of the human story out.

31:51Kara Swisher:I don't know. you know, Mr. Murphy is going to do what he's going to do and he's going to make his show. I feel like go make your show and don't pretend that you're paying honor to these people or it's an homage. And he's been doing a couple interviews. I think Jack sort of pushed back at some of the stuff. And then he said something super absurd and rude to Jack. And I actually, you know, because I'm a little shyer, but I commented saying like, you know, John and my late husband, Anthony rejects godfathers. Like, to say to him, I don't understand, it's odd that you would be defending a relative you don't remember is, like, insane.

32:30Kara Swisher:Offensive, absurd. It's like, go make your show, and people will watch it, and you're going to move on, and you're going to make 10 other shows. But don't try to couch it in that you're doing anyone a favor, or it's going to be an homage. And, like, stop doing interviews, because you suck at it. Yeah. Also, the clothes, People are really upset about the clothes. Yes. Well, I mean, it looks like it looks like it's a TikTok shop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't look like the way she dressed. The whole thing. And also, I got to be honest, people only know Carolyn through these paparazzi photos. And she is not what she appears to be in these photos, which is a little like haunting, hunted, head down and stuff.

33:10Kara Swisher:That was a choice. She didn't want to look up. In the 90s, pictures that you could make a living, those were worth a lot of money. And she wasn't going to give these photographers that photo. So she kept her head down. But she was not someone in need of protection. She was the protector. She protected all of us. She protected John. So I just feel like I'm sure if they're basing this TV show on that kind of image, it's not going to be great. And I say this knowing full well he's probably writing right now a character called Carol. So Carol's going to take a turn for the worse. She's going to have shingles.

33:48Kara Swisher:Yeah, shingles. She's going to have psoriasis. So talk about Carol in that way because those are the pictures. She's quite beautiful, elegant, clearly. Could really wear very elegant clothes and Calvin Klein and that whole genre. Talk about her when you would just say she was different than that. She was. She was considered cold by the media, for example. Well, she was considered that because she wouldn't sit for an interview. And also this idea of her as a fashionista, I guess we have to accept that mantle now because she's gone for so long. But if she wanted to be that, she would have done interviews with Vogue, with Harper's Bazaar, with all of these.

34:25Kara Swisher:They all asked her. Everyone was dying to do an interview with her. She could have been a guest editor at Vogue. And she chose not to do any of that because she felt like she didn't have anything really important to say. And she knew that they were just interviewing her because she was John's wife and that wasn't good enough for her. So, you know, this idea of her as like this meek, quiet, like hunted, oh no, I can't handle this, is not who she was. Well, explain who she was. She was someone who was very, very intelligent. And that came through her work with John and George. She was someone who was very strong-willed, who was not going to bend to anyone else's idea of her.

35:05Kara Swisher:She got invited to all those socialite parties and stuff. She'd pick and choose the ones that she wanted to go to because she didn't want to be seen as that. And again, she was 33 when she died. She was like at a moment where she was in a young marriage. She was figuring out the next thing that she wanted to do to have impact. And it wasn't all of these things that people were trying to. She didn't want to be socialite. She didn't want to be fashionista. She didn't want to dwell in that kind of character. So, you know, it's hard to know what she would do, right? Because she was taken so young.

35:37Kara Swisher:But she was just, and she was a very loyal friend. She was the friend that everyone went to for advice. She always had good advice. She could read a room. You called her a pain in the ass in the documentary, at least, that she was seen like that by people at George. Yeah, well, because she was strong-willed. You know, and she'd come in and she had very firm opinions about the look and the feel of the magazine. And she'd make her opinions pretty well known. And, you know, some people gravitated to it. Some people didn't. She wasn't afraid to make enemies. No, no. I mean, she was fierce. But she had a great aesthetic taste, a great, you know, sense of what popped off a page, great sense of color, and made a lot of really good contributions.

36:17It just, it was, you know, there were people whose job it was to determine that. She came in, you know, so there was obvious tension when she was there. But John backed her up 100 percent. And I think the magazine looked better as a result of her.

36:32Kara Swisher:We'll be back in a minute.

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38:43Kara Swisher:Obviously, the most powerful candidate these days is RFK Jr. He just canceled nearly$500 million in mRNA vaccine funding back in January. JFK's sister, Carolyn Kennedy, called RFK a predator, and he was unqualified to lead the HHS and addicted to attention and power. How do you deal with the family, deal with the legacy might now be RFK Jr. over someone like John or his father? Well, that's why we made the doc, is to remind people that there was some elegance with the Kennedys. He's undermining everything that the family, the Kennedy family, stood for. Really, everything on every level. I knew him well, him and his wife Mary.

39:21Kara Swisher:I spent a lot of time with them from the time my husband died in 1999 also until like for a decade. And honestly, I can't reconcile the person I knew who was fierce environmental advocate and always – I mean, he had that weird thing about roadkill always. Yeah, okay. All right. Did you eat any of it? No, but he would pick it up from the road all the time and leave it in his minivan, and sometimes he'd forget. It'd be like a skunk under the seat, and his minivan always smelled of death. But other than that weirdness, I just can't reconcile who it is I thought I knew from this person that has appeared now on the scene.

40:04Kara Swisher:And I just don't know, you know, I haven't been in touch with them since Mary died, and that was sort of the breaking point for me. So it would be unfortunate if that was the legacy. I feel like their legacy is so powerful, though. Their brand is so powerful from the 60s and 70s. So there isn't everyone who is so powerful is not living, John or his father or anyone else, right? Yeah, but are they going to remember, like, history? It's hard to write in the press. Are they going to remember RFK? is millions of children die certainly yeah well right you know or vaccine yeah you know measles is back best friend of measles is really now the brand the kennedy brand unfortunately you know well you got the you know the shot timmy shriver with you know his cause has done great work caroline kennedy's written really important books you know on first amendment right of privilege yeah exactly so i mean it's not like the kennedys haven't contributed mightily to i think once trump is out of office.

41:00Kara Swisher:I don't know. There'll be some sort of rejiggering reset. Although after he dropped out of the race, the Trump campaign released a memo hailing it as a win for Republicans and saying that every single state RFK Jr. vote breaks for President Trump. Trump seemed to understand celebrity politics, the links with the Kennedys, and what it would mean for him, right? Why do you think Trump's and RFK's political brands, which are opposite. So many of us work so well together right now. I guess just extreme policies that appeal to extreme people. Yeah. It's kind of unexplainable. He really made his mark being an anti-vaxxer.

41:40Kara Swisher:That was his whole thing. My feeling is like he had exhausted everything he could possibly write and talk about on the environment, which I think always was his true passion, at least when I knew him. And then like, okay, it was almost like a money thing. So how are you going to switch and now you're going to write 10 books on pharmaceutical companies and vaccines. And that just became like, it's almost like a, to my head, it's like a business move. A grift. A grift. Yeah. And, you know, grifters, see grifters. Right, right. That's a really good point. So, Carol, you just had a reunion with Andy Cohen on Watch What Happens Live after years of feuding with him.

42:15Kara Swisher:We now have a reality, you did? I pay attention. We now have a reality TV president, as you noted, celebrity's president. And as a former journalist, you worked for ABC, former Real Housewife of New York, and a member of the Kennedy Foundation. You understand every angle of this story, the intersection of pop culture and politics. What would you say your insight to power and celebrity is right now? And what's your takeaway a quarter century after his death? Oh, my gosh. I always thought, like, when John first told me about George magazine, I just immediately thought, this is such a brilliant idea.

42:49Kara Swisher:And so ahead of its time, people probably aren't ready for it. But like now it's arrived and now I don't know. It's a complicated question. I mean, my reality show experience is like totally it's just like totally separate than anything I could imagine that I would want in politics. In fact, like on that show, Real Housewives, the year that Trump was running during the night 2016, I was very, very against him and was very vocal about it on this on this show, which never had politics on it before. I even I even said that, you know, that he was I mean, I called him a buffoon. This is in 2016. I mean, I was pretty vocal about it as much as I could.

43:30Kara Swisher:And Bravo, to their credit, aired it all. But I don't know. It doesn't seem to have an impact. Like, you know, he went on to win. I'd like to come back to a time where politics is a little more boring, to be honest. It's boring. Noble. And noble and something to aspire to or some people to look up to. It's almost like the president is like a role model. Like he doesn't. Do you see that happening now? No. You've been in all these areas. It's moved more towards Real Housewives than it has. No, I don't see it happening now. In fact, I just heard a rumor. This is going to be totally made up, but one of my former cast members is considering getting into politics in Palm Beach.

44:08Kara Swisher:Right, but that makes sense. Yeah. Why not? And I think if she did, she would win. Yeah. I was just like, what? Have you ever considered it? Carol. Love that idea. No, I feel like I, well, I used to say I curse too much, but now everyone's cursing. Yeah. No. I think you're birthing the Carol Radswell. I know, right? right here. Right, for Senate. No, I mean, I think I'm too much of a hothead, but I don't know. You know, I want my apologies. Not saying no. Hello. Just not saying no. None of these things. Not saying no. That's sort of what Kennedy did, like John Kennedy did. So, Gary, you were the executive vice president of Global Marketing and Corporate Affairs at News Corp, where I met you.

44:51Kara Swisher:You were working for Uncle Satan, as I like to call Rupert. You know I did. That was my favorite. Of course. That was my favorite thing. It was because Because he was avuncular and satanic at the same time. It's a rare combination. He was friendly and evil. I felt like it was a compliment. That's why he's good. I understand the appeal. He took it as a compliment, too. Yeah. So you were described as the Murdoch whisperer. So I have to ask, President Trump is suing Murdoch for$10 billion over a Wall Street Journal report about a birthday card Trump allegedly gave to Jeff Epstein. It looks like, in fact, he did.

45:20Kara Swisher:What do you think is going through his head right now? Obviously, he just got this legal fight. He has to now report on his health. I don't think he is going to capitulate one iota. Yeah. I think he's going to fight this thing till the end because I think they've got this story hard. They've authenticated. I assume they've authenticated. The doodle. And the truth is he doesn't really need anything from Trump anymore. I mean, he got everything he needed in the first term. He was able to sell Fox to Disney and have no regulatory review. That is so cynical. Which is so crazy. Have you met? No. Well, there you go.

45:56Like, what does he need now? I mean, maybe if he sells because of the trust issue, he might, but that's still years away. So I think he's in a great position to fight this thing out. He's a man who likes to fight. He loves to take on where he's on the right, and he's got no reason to capitulate.

46:16Kara Swisher:Can you explain for people to understand? I do understand it, where he has the journal, which is the cudgel, which he does real news, and he loves it. He loves, loves, loves it. And you've got to admit. He's been a great owner. He's been a pretty good, right? I mean, you guys, everybody hated, everyone said it's the end of the journal. No, because the family was not great. No, exactly. I was like kind of excited for an actual professional to come in. He's been a great owner of the journal. That's used as a cudgel. He keeps it. He protects it. Keeps it pure. Absolutely. Over at Fox, it's the sort of lick Trump up and down groups most of the time, essentially.

46:44Well, it's really prime time.

46:45Kara Swisher:New York Post, you never know what they're going to do, right? Yeah, pretty much. And they're opening the LA version. Right. Is that how he's going to keep it? I think so. Because, you know, more than anyone, Murdoch is responsible for Trump in a lot. In bringing him up. Yeah. And I think my guess is, based on some fact, is that he learned to regret it at a certain point. Well, he certainly did in the emails. Certainly in 2020. I think he was ready for a change. I mean, I think I know that, actually. But, you know, he's a man who loved—he never had a relationship with a president until Trump. You know, he never had a relationship with Reagan.

47:17The Bushes didn't need him because they had ails. So he finally has a president that he has an inordinate amount of control over, and he used it. He used it really effectively. But now he doesn't need it. And so I think it's going to be really interesting.

47:30Kara Swisher:Does Trump need him? Much more than Rupert needs him. Because they need Fox News, doesn't he? Yeah. I mean, the problem is Rupert, nobody can really control the primetime anchors. The control from corporate is always daytime. I mean, the primetime is where all the influence is really wielded. Rupert may not need him, but Fox News needs him. What happens in the wake of the MAGA after that, after he leaves, presumably? MAGA after Trump leaves? For Fox. For Fox. Well, if you're in opposition, it's always been really good. What's interesting is that now that they're in power, they're doing great. But when I was in this game, if you were in opposition, it was really good.

48:11And, you know, MSNBC had a great run from 16 to 20. I suspect now that their audience is pretty durable.

48:19Kara Swisher:Durable over time. Yeah, and they're not going to – I think, you know, with him gone, I think Vance or whoever it is will be able to keep that. That thing is minting money. He's charmless. He's charmless. All right. Last question. In the doc, Tina Brown says the character is destiny and, quote, JFK Jr. should not have been at the helm of that plane. He was told it was not a good time to fly any base and said, I'm going to do it anyway. I don't know if that – Tina notes this in the piece. I'm quoting from the thing. Right. And I'm not sure that's true. Okay. And I challenge that because I haven't seen anything where he was specifically told, you should not fly this plane.

48:53Right. I mean, I'm not making excuses for him, but I'm not sure that that's right.

48:56Kara Swisher:In a lot of ways, he embodied a lot of America's best traits, entrepreneurship, risk-taking, confidence, but also reckonseness in that regard. So what is his legacy for you personally as a friend and as someone we can't stop thinking about? I think that is – when I saw all those pictures, I was sort of brought back. Carol, you go first, and Gary, you get the last word. He was my late husband's best friend, closest cousin, and confidant. And obviously, Carolyn Bissette was then one of my closest friends and also confidant. So I'm just sort of micro. I see them and him as that. My cousin, cousin-in-law, my best friend.

49:37Kara Swisher:And when I think of him, I don't see the macro. I just see the micro and who he was as a person, as a friend, as a husband, as a cousin. And, you know, on every level, he was just fantastic. He was always fun to be around John. He was just a wonderful human being. And the world lost a lot when that plane went down. Gary? I can't say it any better than that. I mean, that's exactly how I feel. I mean, put aside the myths and the fame and all that, he was just a great friend. He was a loyal friend. He rooted for his friends. He was fun as hell, incredibly playful. I mean, the thousands of hours of games and sports.

50:24Prank, jokes. He wore his fame with incredible elegance. On the public stage, he was elegant. In private, he was elegant. And I think the world could really use someone like John today.

50:36Kara Swisher:Yeah. Let's end on that. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yoakum, Megan Burney, Alison Rogers, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Claire Hyman and Eric Littke. Aaliyah Jackson engineered this episode. And our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you already have the measles antibodies. If not, watch out for brain worms and roadkill. It smells like death. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow.

51:12Kara Swisher:Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

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