Why This Crypto Billionaire Wants to Slow Down the AI Arms Race

19:16Kara Swisher:For sure. And anticipation of that never happens. Yeah. And I think the thing that's really changed, two things. One, I think the AI arms race, I think is so unpopular. It's caused so much mistrust. That's one thing. And then, of course, we have this disaster with ICE where literally Americans are being killed and people are being scooped up and put in God knows where. That's not what voters signed up for. I think those two things together with new surveillance tools, that's what's making people upset. Nervous. Nervous, rightfully. I totally get it. So I think... I mean, I have no question in my mind that Mark Wayne Mullen would use these tools to abuse citizens.

19:56Kara Swisher:No question at this point. You know, I totally get it. I think this is going to be the issue of the day, though, is because this is a trade-off, always public safety and privacy and, you know, just being able to not be seen. Where is that line? I think the line is going to be moving. I think what it says, though, is that governments, including San Francisco, and San Francisco is really good on this, right? So their use of these tools, by the way, are incident-based. So they're not just doing surveillance and looking everywhere and trying to see if somebody's doing something wrong. It's when you get a report of a smash-and-grab incident or a strong-arm robbery.

20:34Then a drone is going to be sent over there. That's what they do, but I get it. People are still uncomfortable because it could change. But again, I think San Francisco needs to do a better job. San Francisco keeps FLOC information for a year. That's way more than the average. The average is about 30 days. And FLOC, just because they know they're under pressure, changed their default setting to seven days. And to go even further, New Hampshire has a law now that says flock information can only be kept for three minutes. So three minutes to see if that matches a crime, and then you have to get rid of it.

21:08Another thing, what's new is we've never had so many drones in the air. They're super effective, right? This drone is first responder. It's a huge force multiplier for the police. But we've never had 100 drones in the air owned by the government. We do now. Now, if you're on the street, you don't really have an, you know, you're in public lands. That's one thing. You can never pick up audio in our systems. That's important, right? Ring cameras do, for example. But you can pick up people's backyards from a drone. I would like to see those technologies blacking out people's backyards, blacking out people's decks, places that are private.

21:50Because, again, I think people are bothered by this, right?

21:54Kara Swisher:So people are bothered. Demonstrators with Sunrise Movement gathered outside your house to protest your support of these tools. This backlash, it has to do with a lot of abuse that no one thought of. And I saw Facebook Live for the first time. I was sitting in a room and I said, okay, what are you going to do about bullies, murderers, suicides, someone strapping a GoPro on their helmet and shooting a church or a synagogue? I was like, what are your tools to deal with this if this happens? And literally the tech said to me, you're a bummer. And I was like, yeah, I'm a bummer. So is the human race.

22:34Kara Swisher:So I don't know what to tell you. Why isn't there any kind of transparency around the consequences for people to decide on? Because voters, I know they approved it, but if they understood, how do we make it so that it's deeply transparent so they can make the tradeoffs they want to? Yeah, and San Francisco does have multiple layers of approval on how these things are deployed. There are audits of them. But obviously we have to do more because the temperature and the anger, again, I think people are putting all of these tools and data centers are the expression of a great amount of anger and angst about this whole AI revolution we're living in right now.

23:17Kara Swisher:I was talking to some of the people who are building these data centers and they had me in and they said, we'd really love your thoughts on why people are feeling this way. And I said, they hate you. and you're hateable. Like, I don't know. Like, you know, there's an expression, a punchable face. I'm like, tech has a punchable face right now in a way that deservedly kind of thing. For sure. And so these are all linked together. And data centers, as you're right, is a proxy for having these AI companies tell us they're going to take all our jobs. They're going to kill us. They're going to, what are you doing here, human?

23:52Kara Swisher:Still, you're still here bothering me. How does it, because at the same time, I just interviewed the mayor of Lansing, Michigan, which I talk about a lot because it was really striking. He put together a data center deal that was all the right things. Closed loop water, payments to the citizens, long-term property taxes. They had to pay the difference in any electrical problems so that rates wouldn't go up. Everything, the total transparency, there was no NDAs. The citizens rejected it. Rejected it. Yeah. So there's no amount of money or promises were believed in any way. So why should we believe you?

24:36Kara Swisher:Not you, but, you know, why should we believe tech at this point when that happens? When there's things that are beneficial, like you're talking about. Yeah, it almost separated tech from the AI arms race. There is an AI arms race that's completely out of control. It's all gas, no brake, no steering. And of course, that's going to end badly. I would say that's AI insanity. Yet it continues. And when you have companies, I mean, they're so wealthy. But when you have them telling you, hey, we invented fire, we invented nuclear energy, you know, and this is really dangerous and it's going to destroy jobs and it's going to hurt, you know, kids and take over humanity.

25:16And then 20 minutes later, they're releasing the new super powerful model. You know, I just don't know how you reconcile that. and I think everybody understands like that's not good. So I think the data setter opposition,

25:32Kara Swisher:which is staggering, maybe that's healthy. That's the way to sort of stop it, slow it down or force regulation in that industry. Because the other thing the industry is doing is they sort of tried to take a reverse page out of the crypto industry, setting up super PACs, but to crush anybody that dared come up with any guardrails. and you saw this in the Alex Boris race, right? That doesn't make any sense, right? So you actually need people now to be really leaders, to be smart and to be working on these guardrails and maybe even slowing it down. I mean, Donald Trump told people they were stupid and poor if they didn't go along with it.

26:14Kara Swisher:Howard Lutnick said no water would be involved. He's such a moron. Well, the weird thing about that is, which I don't get, is the MAGA movement is actually pretty aligned on this. They are. They don't trust these companies. They do not. They are very concerned about kids and families and loss of jobs. I mean, that's exactly what we talk about here. Well, that's where you see Marjorie Taylor Greene and Elizabeth Warren coming together in a big blob. It's really interesting and strange. And you saw some of the child protection folks getting together. Steve Bannon on this issue. Yeah. And by the way, I think that's good news.

26:43There's maybe one area we can find.

26:45Kara Swisher:Nothing with Steve Bannon is good news, but that's fine. All right, sure. Something came up in our last conversation that democracy is messy. We talked about it. And why you said you'd rather vomit blood out of your eyeballs, I don't know how you would do that, than run for office. Still true. But there is the worry about billionaires, you know, using your money to just fund it. Like, using your money to fund these agencies to do fast-track adoption without having enough people coming in on it. Like, enough citizens being able to do that. Yeah. For sure. Look, there's way too much money in politics.

27:20The Supreme Court made a huge mistake with Citizens United and with gerrymandering. That should be the top two things that we try to change and hopefully our next administration, if we can do that. But it is the rules of the game. So, I mean, if you want to get involved in policy, you have to play that game, unfortunately. We can't let the oil industry sort of dictate energy policy and then have the solar folks, for example, sit back and go, oh, look at our lovely product. I hope everybody loves it. No, it doesn't work that way. You got to get out there and fight. You know, this is politics. It's not a pillow fight.

27:56Kara Swisher:So speaking of that, according to New York Times, you spent about$3.5 million on Alex Boris, who was under attack from OpenAI for his AI safety advocacy. Why was that fight? I wasn't surprised you were there, but others were, like, that you were there. Well, it was just this totally obnoxious fucking thing from this Greg Brockman, like, 50 million bucks is going to drop on Alex's head for him to dare to come up with any kind of guideline. One of the top executives at OpenAI. President. President. And they try to say, no, that wasn't OpenAI. Of course it was. It was a strategy. And so that was just wrong.

28:31And, you know, we wanted to show that people that, you know, like Alex and obviously Scott Wiener here and Manny Routenel in Colorado, who did win, we put a million bucks into that race, that they're going to have, we're going to have their backs. and we're going to support you to defy this big money. And we're talking about big money in AI. It's so big now.

28:53Kara Swisher:It is. It's so scary what could be coming down the pike here. But money doesn't always buy results when you have that much opposition. Right. So I think that was important. Obviously, Alex didn't win, but he came pretty close. Right. But you just talked about money. The Guardrails Alliance, a new super hack backed by tech workers, labor unions, and other rank and file workers backed for us. They were up against leading the future, which is, as you noted, funded by OpenAI's president, Greg Brockman. It is an operating budget of$100 million compared to Guardrail's goal to raise$15 million. You told the Times that OpenAI was, quote, trying to destroy, intimidate and send a clear message that if you do come up with clear Guardrails, we're going to crush you.

29:37Kara Swisher:So talk a little bit about this. No, I mean, that's... And just, I'm sorry, let me do one thing. You're an investor in Anthropic, which is OpenAI's main rival. Well, no, this is actually not true. I mean, it is true. I mean, I have indirect investments in OpenAI, Anthropic, and SpaceX. Okay. So all the same. Right. Okay. So all different people that were doing it. Okay. So talk a little bit about this money differential because it's vast and there's plenty more coming. It is. But I think the good news here is when you have that much opposition to what's going on, and it's clear you do, I think it's kind of ineffective.

30:11And you compare that to the crypto industry where you really didn't have a lot of opponents. You had sort of an Elizabeth Warren wing, but there isn't really sort of a populace that was sort of anti. And on the other side, you had 50 million Americans trading crypto. That was a big plus. That's not the case in the AI thing. The AI thing is different. This is not Airbnb. This is not Uber. It's not crypto. All of those had lots of policy implications, lots of political action committees. But those are like incremental things in how the world works. AI is like an existential threat to like human existence, right?

30:44It's a different thing. I mean, it is fire. Like they invented fire, and then they're trying to say, oh, we don't need fire stations or fireproofing or, you know, it's just crazy. So it's a whole different beast. And I think the money isn't working. And if it had been working, you wouldn't have this kind of backlash.

31:02Kara Swisher:Right. And now they're trying to un-backlash. They're backing off, right? Yeah. They're trying to talk about how all the positives, and there are positives, don't get me wrong. Right. This is potentially a fantastic, you know, future that we could be living in. But only if we take the very, very difficult middle path between this AI insanity we're on now, this unmitigated arms race. Which, by the way, you know, Anthropik and Dario, they're doing better, but they're still in the arms race. They're still releasing another powerful model. Okay, this seems to be fine. And warning about all the dangers that will happen.

31:39So we can't be on that path. And we can't be on the Bernie Sanders, shut it all down, just walk away from it path. As Tristan Harris and Center for Humane Technology did great work on this. Yeah, he's about to come out with some new stuff.

31:52Kara Swisher:He's so good. But like he says, this is a very difficult middle path we need to walk. That means you need extraordinary, brave political leaders who are knowledgeable. and you need a lot of, I think, the people in tech to stand up and to push back on the folks that are in the arms race bubble. They don't even, some evil people, mostly good people doing really good work. I think just one evil person's not good and we know which one that is. You can do a lot of damage, right? But they're in a bubble though. They're not seeing this. So why aren't they seeing this? Well, I mean, a couple of things.

32:27I think many of them have. I mean, if you look at people that donated to Alex Boris, Let me give some props to a lot of the open AI employees. Like their leaders were doing one thing, but the employees were actually backing the Alex Borases. And if you look at a lot of the Anthropic employees, and Anthropic, I think, does a much better job across the board. What is it now they're involved in this Alaska race? Because back in the candidate, he was really good on AI regulation. That's encouraging. So maybe it's the leaders who are in a bubble, but the employees see the power and the danger of these things.

33:01Kara Swisher:Well, you know them. Why do you think they're this way? I mean, I do think you get in a bubble with anything. It's super exciting work. You know, just the reaction of the world. I mean, in like, what, four years, it's the only thing we talk about. It's pretty intoxicating, I'm sure. And they're also super working probably nonstop by no time to sleep, right? You do, I think you do get in a bubble. You get in a bubble. They probably don't meet a lot of folks in places that are really concerned about this stuff. Yeah, they don't. They don't. That's for sure. They go from their planes to their houses to their...

33:40But one thing I would say, I think the social media myths, I mean, we let that get away from us, right? I think that actually is some good news because we've seen this movie before.

33:51Kara Swisher:Right. And so it's pretty hard to pitch all that BS. It's all good. And you're seeing that in these cases, these social media cases, which are going their way and using product liability versus Section 230 or free speech. They're now losing. And you saw this giant settlement, which is small, but it's bigger than I expected. It's a good development. It's a good development. And it's still not over. I think that's right. I think that's exactly right. So do you, switching gears on this thing, you're against the billionaire's tax. Because people are mad at billionaires. I don't know if you know that, but they are.

34:28Kara Swisher:even people who like money, like myself, I'm mad at billionaires, right? I can't wait to get back to 900 million and I could be a good person again. Okay, all right. That's a good billionaire joke. And there's not that many, I can tell you. But talk about this, because one, that's, I think, the issue. And the one-time 5 % tax, what's the big deal? Well, look - Also, we need your money. Thank you. Just give it to us. Okay, everybody hates billionaires. If you want to get even with the billionaires, make them stay in California where they pay 13 % and they don't get capital gains breaks. Make them stay.

35:06Kara Swisher:It's such a terrible place to live, but go ahead. Well, I mean, it's good for the state. All right, okay. You know, that's one thing. But look, it's a terribly designed bill. And I think Mark Cuban has made this point, right? We both know in tech and in many small businesses, most of your wealth is paper wealth. And, you know, we both lived through the dot-com crash, right? Like, you know, I think most of those stocks went, they were down 99 % within a year. So imagine if the day they set your tax bill was pre-crash, and then you had to pay it host crash. The tax bill would be five times bigger than your net worth, and you'd have no liquidity to pay it.

35:44And so in that reality, and, you know, that would apply to the AI folks right now. A lot of paper wealth, you have another AI crash that could happen anytime. Same situation. I mean, entrepreneurs, they would never set up in California. Why would you risk that? You could just go across the border to Nevada or Arizona or Texas or Florida, and you wouldn't have that situation. That will drain money out of the general fund. And that hurts most workers in California, including teachers, firefighters. That's why they're against it. Look, this structure was designed by Dave Reagan from this local SCIU unions.

36:24That's what it was designed to give more resources to those union members. Right. So it's not fair. It's not well structured. And I think Dave Reagan never meant this to go on the ballot. His MO is to shake down the state government with these really painful propositions and then negotiate away for some other benefits. Luckily, this time, Governor Newsom didn't go for it. And this thing is on the ballot. It's terrible, and we need to defeat it.

36:52Kara Swisher:At the very time, people really don't like billionaires. Do you think that is the case? Is it going to be defeated? And if it's not, what happens? I mean, you never know with the mood here. I think if you care about Silicon Valley, people here get involved in the opposition. There's other ways to fix the income disparity, and we have to. And billionaires like Peter Thiel slip out of all manner of payments by manners of tricks. Like Scott Galloway has proposed an alternative minimum tax or some other way to do this. But most people feel I pay more taxes than Elon Musk. This is insane, like on a per capita basis.

37:29Kara Swisher:So why not figure out something that is fair? Because they block that too. Yeah, I don't buy the studies that show like the secretary's paying more than the bill. Like we're paying a lot of money into, If you're here in California, you're paying a ton of taxes. But look, this has to be fixed at the federal level. Look, we have a$2 trillion annual deficit now,$40 trillion in debt. Obviously, we need to tax the wealthy more. But again, at the federal level and do it on income, because again, wealth taxes don't work. You had 15 countries, I think it was, in Europe. They had this in the 90s. They've almost all done away with it because it just doesn't work.

38:09So income is cash. That's the way to tax. But do away with the capital gains taxes federally. We don't need it. And I think in an AI world, look, we've got to stop valuing capital over people. And right now, you know, you can write off a private jet in one year. It's ridiculous. So you have to do away with that stuff. Maybe allow people to write off 10 years of employing a person. That'd be a better way to go. And so we really got to redo our tax structure. But look, the only way you're going to get there is you got to get a Democrat in the White House. And that's what we should be working for.

38:41And by the way, harder way of doing that is making sure that California is a problem-solving state and not creating more problems like this tax would create.

38:51Kara Swisher:So where do you imagine this going now? Billionaires, of course, have been threatening to leave New York City for more than 20 years over similar taxes, and they never do. Do you think this would happen in San Francisco? Oh, people will leave for sure. People already are leaving. But yeah, again, you wouldn't be here in a structure like that. It's too risky. It just wouldn't work. But look, I think you have sort of the worst of the worst on this thing if it passed, because I think it's tied up in the courts forever. I think the Supreme Court throws it out. Looks very unconstitutional to me. But so you'd have the worst of the narrative, people leaving just in case.

39:28You'd never get a dollar out of it because it would probably be overturned at the Supreme Court. Again, it was never designed, I think, as a solution for this problem.

39:36Kara Swisher:So your solution is the federal government reforms the tax system. Well, you've got to get a Democrat in the White House. And then we've got to maybe get rid of the filibuster so you can get this through, depending on what happens with Congress. But yeah, we have to completely redo our tax system. We'll be back in a minute.

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41:05Kara Swisher:I want to finish up talking about solutions. One of the things is tax reputation is really, the polls are really quite clear about that. But what could happen to turn that around from your perspective? So look, you just have different situations in different parts of the country. Obviously in Washington, the unions don't have much power. In California, the government unions have too much power and SEIU as well. And look, our budget is up even though our population is flat. So we definitely are not being very efficient. It can't just always be a revenue issue. And I think people would support higher taxes.

41:43I would. I'll pay more if I know it's being used efficiently. But I don't think we're there yet. And I think the reason is Sacramento is too dominated by a couple of government unions and by SCIU. And they're there every single day threatening legislatures. And we need to stand up a permanent sort of pushback by the business community. Not the tech community. It's not even about tech policy. It's just about being problem solvers. And look, we know the problems in California are housing, right? The energy is too expensive. It's too hard to build stuff. Those are the problems people want solved.

42:20If you deal with that, I think you get majority support. I just interviewed Steve Hilton, for example. For governor?

42:27Kara Swisher:Yes. Becerra will not do an interview with me. Yeah, we just said yesterday we're supporting Becerra. We have had a number of meetings with him. I like them. And we were meeting specifically on climate policy. I spend most of my time on climate change work, but the climate folks, look, we failed. Like we're kind of, we need a reset. Like we're all stuck. The climate folks, we've been advocating for too many things that are expensive, a green premium, and that's not working for working people. And that's why you get the backlash, right? I think the oil and gas industry, they're stuck. Like they're fighting us on every front, but they've got to start making sustainable fuels.

43:05And we're big believers. You need a lot of electrification, obviously, although we've lost that race to China. But look, we don't necessarily have an internal combustion engine problem. We have a sustainable fuels problem. And the oil industry could make fuels from renewable energy. You can make fuel from solar panels, nuclear, wind. You can absolutely do that. It's not economic today, but solar was not economic 10 years ago. it's the cheapest form of energy today. And they also have to figure out ways of sucking carbon out of the air. They're not going to do that because they're nice guys, but they're going to do that under pressure.

43:39And there's a lot of pressure points going on, including the insurance crisis, which I hate to, we love that issue. I mean, it's a terrible thing going on, but because it is a direct result of too much carbon in the air and that's warming the earth and this extreme weather, I mean, every day you turn around, then there's like, oh, another act of God, right? No, it's because of too much carbon in the air, right? So they're responsible for that. And I think there will be a moment of some kind of grand settlement where the damages will be in the trillions. It'll be a tobacco moment. But you're not going to kill the oil and gas industry.

44:15We've been trying to kill it, and that's not working. But if they started changing the way they make fuels or sucking the carbon out of the air, that can work. And by the way, there are a billion and a half internal combustion vehicles in the world. I mean, what are we going to do? Are we going to throw it on the ocean? I mean, it's just not going to work. And again, China has sort of taken over all of the EV industry. We probably can't compete with them anymore. We can probably compete on internal combustion engines with sustainable fuels. America's pretty good at that. But we can't have a situation where, you know, there's 10 million cars being exported from China now.

44:49It's crazy how big that has grown. Right. We can't get into a situation where all of your cars are made in China and they're self-driving and you lose all the jobs of making the cars and all the jobs of driving the cars. We are fucking not going to let that happen. OK. Can't let that happen. All right.

45:05Kara Swisher:Wow. OK. OK. So I was going to ask about China, like what's happening there. And you're absolutely right. You go there and what they're doing in cars has been astonishing. If you go anywhere in the world, BYD cars are everywhere. A lot of Chinese vehicles. Robotics, innovative. Electrification, innovative. How do you look at the challenges from China? Because they are also ahead in climate stuff, like climate and capture and things. Except for carbon capture. Carbon capture. We can own that. Right, but they're ahead in a lot of stuff that's even towards sustainable because they see the problem themselves.

45:42Yeah, I think it's less for climate and more for energy security. That's right. different objective that's probably why they haven't gone into cdr carbon dioxide removal we can own that and and we need to and the oil and gas industry is pretty good at molecules they've got to figure out how to do that but yeah the us versus china we're going to lose to china and the ai thing it's a red herring it's it's that's not right we can't think that way um they're operating in a whole different reality and we can't compete in that reality because we don't want that reality. That said, there's lots of stuff we can be doing together.

46:19Like we've got to get together on the really scary stuff on AI, like biological war. I've just read that book, biological war, a scenario scary as hell, worse than a nuclear holocaust. We've got to work together on that. On EVs, I just mentioned, you know, we can't lose all the job. However, you know, the BYD Segal,$10 ,000 car, fabulous car. We should be letting that into California at least for our low-income folks. Right now, we have these crazy high gas prices,

46:49Kara Swisher:70 cents a gallon, right? And tax. That's the most regressive tax in the world. That's hurting the guy that can't afford to live in Silicon Valley, lives in Modesto, paying a fortune, and he can't afford an EV. They're all 50 grand. Let him buy a Chinese BYD seagull. But maybe he had to be income tested because we're never going to make that stuff, right? So I think it's just complicated. it. We've got to be working with them, but we've got to also know that they're trying to, they're trying to eliminate our way of life. But there's tons of things we can do together. Especially around AI safety, 100%.

47:26That's right.

47:26Kara Swisher:All right. The last thing is, one of the things, as you've noticed, Chris is all over the map here, and it's a really interesting thing. I often find you really interesting, and Mark Cuban's very similar in that way. You don't quite know what direction you're going to go. Obviously, you have very liberal tendencies. You've been supportive of Democrats. The same time, you're against the billionaire's tax. But how, in this very partisan era, where it's really like, ugh, it's very hard to operate for most people. And especially with an administration who is actively hostile towards lots and lots of people with voting and obviously trying to do all manner of horrors with ICE and everything else, which seems very obvious.

48:05Kara Swisher:And the polls are showing that. Nobody's liking what's happening here. How do you get back to an area of comedy anywhere, like at all, where people are going to get along? Or maybe they won't. Maybe we're post-America. I think we'll get back there. We've had other difficult times in American history, really difficult times. Well, I always go when people in Washington are like, oh, we can't speak to anyone. I'm like, Civil War. Yeah, no. We've had a Civil War. Lots of challenges. I think, number one, dump your social media. Just get off that shit. It's just really bad for you, and it's ruining our country.

48:40I think the other thing is we've got to get a notion of fighting really hard for what we believe in. Fight really hard, but then loving your opponents when the fight is over. After a football game, you fight really hard, you shake hands after. We've got to get back to doing stuff like that.

48:56Kara Swisher:How do you do that? I get that. I get that. Right. Well, you've got to teach your kids. Maybe our generation is too far gone, but it's not our world anymore. So we've got to teach our kids to think that way. So who do you look at that you find, even if you might not agree with him, among the political figures or leaders? I mean, obviously Dolly Parton, but we don't have her anymore. Well, point two, I think Tellurico, James Tellurico, we've gotten to know him pretty well. You know, I ask him, if you get to the Senate, you're going to impeach Trump, right? And he's like, no, no, I'm going to make Trump a winner.

49:29I'm going to make him a winner. And, you know, Mark Cuban has done the same thing with his drug program. He gave Trump the credit. Great. If that works, that's one step. We've got to start working with our fellow Americans. Rob Sands, another guy who's going to be governor of Iowa, I believe. Same thing. He's a dem in a red state. He's going to win, but he's a problem solver. He's pragmatic. He goes everywhere. He talks to everybody. So we've got to start doing that more.

49:58Kara Swisher:So last words for people here. There are a lot of entrepreneurs, business people. You've obviously had a lot of success. You have a very interesting life. What would be something you would say to entrepreneurs to think about going forward? And this really sort of, it's a moment right now we're in. Yeah. Well, something that always helped me, there was somebody before I started my first business, and I never thought I would have, but he said, cut the lifeboats, right? Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid of failing. Failure is a badge of honor if you do it with grace and honor. and you got nothing to be afraid of.

50:33And you have the incredible tool. Oh, I think from this conference, right? You have incredible tools now, including this is where AI, I think is really good. You know, we've never had a higher number of small businesses starting. So, you know, go for it and take those risks.

50:47Kara Swisher:In San Francisco, you're going to stay? A hundred percent. A hundred percent. All right. All right. Chris, thank you for being here. As usual, incredibly thoughtful conversation. and thank you Odoo for hosting. We're at the Odoo Experience in San Francisco. Odoo makes an all-in-one suite of business software, everything from sales and accounting to inventory and operations on the theory that you shouldn't need 10 systems to run one company. That's a very good thing. Anyway, thank you so much and thanks to Chris Larson.

51:22Kara Swisher:Today's show was produced by Nishat Kerwa, Tracy Hunt, Madeline LaPlante-Duby, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, and Kaylin Lynch. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester, Lissa Soap, Julia Sharpe-Levine, and Manola Moreno. And thanks again to Odu for hosting our conversation. Our engineers are Fernando Arudan-Ritquan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following this show, the drones haven't found you yet. Yet. If not, what the flock are you doing? Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

52:02Kara Swisher:We'll be back on Thursday with more.

52:26Kara Swisher:handle a fraction of your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.