Billy Joel and Bruce Springsteen Made People Proud To Be American with Jim Cullen

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1:34Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open Book, where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word, from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know, I can roll with the punches, so let me know.

2:08Anyways, let's get to it.

2:17Today, we're in for a real treat of an episode as Jim Cullen takes us on a journey through the lives of two of America's greatest icons, Bruce Springsteen and Billy Joel. Through their music, both men capture the hopes, struggles, and dreams of everyday people, becoming cultural legends and voices for an entire generation. Jim unpacks their artistry, impact, and explains why their stories still resonate so powerfully today. I hope you'll sit back, turn up the volume, and enjoy the great conversation with Jim.

2:58Joining us now on Open Book is Jim Cullen. He's a teacher, author, and historian. And he wrote an absolutely outstanding book. It's called Bridge and Tunnel Boys. And I technically am a bridge and tunnel boy, Jim, although I can't sing. It's Billy Joel, Bruce Springsteen, and the Metropolitan Sound of the 21st Century. And it's just great to have you here. I understand you're also a fellow Tufts alum and a Long Islander. I had Saul Gittleman on, open book. I don't know if you remember the provost. Of course I do. He just wrote a new book on higher education. And Saul has been a 40-plus year friend of mine, a very big influence on my life, helped me get into Harvard Law School.

3:46And of course, I'm one of the few goys out here on Long Island that knows the difference between a shagits and a shicks up because I took his course in Yiddish literature. But your book was fascinating to me for a number of different reasons. I've gotten to know Mr. Joel mostly, not Bruce Springsteen as much, although I've met him a few times. These were two icons of my era. I'm a 60-year-old guy. I've also interviewed Bob Spitz, who was the author of the Led Zeppelin book. I don't know if you've read that book, but I would recommend that to you. He joined us on Open Book a few months back. And these guys represent a capsule in time for people of my generation.

4:26Of course, I'm more biased towards Billy Joel because I'm a Long Islander, and my buddies that are across the Hudson River are more biased to Bruce Springsteen. But why write this book, sir? Give us a little sense of your background. Tell us why you wrote this book. Why did you pick these two guys and not somebody like a Jon Bon Jovi as an example? Well, I guess I'd start by saying that like you, I'm a bridge and tunnel boy. I was born in Queens. My father was a New York City firefighter. I did leave for a little while in Port Washington, so we overlapped there as well. I was the first person in my family to go to college, and I bring that up because I didn't grow up in a house where there were a lot of books or educated people.

5:05And instead, my introduction to the wider world was through Top 40 Radio. And so I was an obsessive listener to pop music and a follower of the Billboard charts and that kind of a thing. And Billy Joel, for those of us of our ilk, was an inescapable presence. And I certainly enjoyed him a lot, although I didn't really think of him as an obsession, nor Bruce Springsteen for that matter. I had older cousins who really were serious Springsteen fans. And then at some point in high school, I just sort of had this epiphany where I realized that this was a very exciting person and that I wanted to be a part of this larger drama that we're all participating in.

5:45And, of course, that's what's the great thing about pop music is that it creates kind of communities. And when I went off to Tufts and I did a thesis there, which I tried to put Springsteen in the wider context of American history to see him as the heir of Walt Whitman and John Steinbeck and so on, and ultimately wrote a book about him that has just been reissued, actually, in a third edition. It's called Born in the USA. But the book came about in kind of a funny way because I had pitched a project to an editor who turned me down because he said that his Belawick, his area was regional studies.

6:20And what I was proposing was not really a regional book. And therefore, he wasn't in a position to say yes. And of course, that was understandable. And it just got me thinking, not really actively, just sort of passively about what I could do for someone like him. And this project just sort of snapped into place very quickly. I had actually thought about doing a Billy Joel book years ago and sort of put it aside. And suddenly, and I think we can all intuitively understand that these guys have a lot in common. I mean, they were born within six months of each other. One was born east of the city.

6:52One was born southwest of the city. You know, they signed to Columbia Records within months of each other. They issued their first records within months of each other. They hit the big after having a couple of records that didn't do well. They hit the big time within a year or two of each other. They both married models. You know, so there is a way in which they led a remarkable sort of parallel life. But above and beyond that, I was sort of interested in the way in which they represented a specific cultural ecosystem that they were both part of. You know, those of us of the rock and roll generation, you know, we don't really think of greater New York as the sort of a cultural hotbed.

7:33Certainly the music business has always been centered in New York. But when we think about rock and roll, we think about the Mississippi Delta, you know, or we think about, you know, Bob Dylan coming from the hinterland. You know, we don't think about Long Island or the Bronx. But as I began to look into this, I began to realize that, in fact, there really is a very rich tradition. And it does have a distinctive style. And it goes back to the very beginnings of popular music as an entertainment genre, you know, with someone like Irving Berlin, who was, you know, a Russian Jew who comes to the city, writes hit songs over a period of years, sort of has a career.

8:09And it sort of goes forward from there, you know, whether you're talking about someone like Frank Sinatra or whether you're talking about, you know, Dion DeMucci, you know, coming out of the Bronx in the early 60s or, you know, all the way, sort of all the way through, The Love and Spoonful, you know, the Shore Sound. out of Asbury Park. You know, Brandy, You're a Fine Girl was a number one record in the early 70s. So these guys actually didn't come out of nowhere. They came out of somewhere pretty specific. And it's really reflected in their musical styles, but it's also reflected in the values that they came of age with.

8:43Well, I mean, they came across to us. And again, like you, I have humble origins. My dad was a crane operator. and since you lived in Port Washington across from Bar Beach, which is now a golf course, that was a large sand mine there. And my father went to work there at age 20. He spent 40 plus years there, started as a laborer. He was a crane operator. And then he was a dispatcher where he weighed the sand coming out of the trucks. They were loaded by conveyor belt. And I grew up in that town. And you may remember Ghost Motorcycle. Do you remember Ghost Motorcycle? So I don't know when you joined.

9:24Okay. So that went out of business in 1995, but from 1953 to 1995, my uncle, Sal DeFeo, a decorated World War II veteran, had a motorcycle shop in Port Washington and a frequent visitor to that shop was Billy Joel. And so I met Billy Joel for the first time as an impressionable 18-year-old on Main Street in Port Washington, across from Finn McCool's, is where my uncle's motorcycle shop was. And Billy would come in there. He could not have been nicer to the people there. And of course, he told us a story about how he drank shoe polish. He was very depressed, almost committed suicide. And when he finally broke out and made it, he made a solemn promise to himself that he would always be cordial to his fans.

10:13And he He was certainly that way at age 33, and he looks that way at age 75. But why, though? Why did these guys who are rock and roll, hall of famers, superstars, how did they come across more regular than their 80s contemporaries? Well, that's an interesting question. And, you know, I think part of that goes to their backgrounds as well. I mean, I'm kind of interested hearing you talk about your background in Port Washington, because although I only lived there for a brief time, I know enough to know that it's a fairly affluent town overall. And so living, you know, living the way that you did and for that matter, the way that I did.

10:49I mean, there is a little bit of a pressing your nose against the glass of it. And no, no, not a little bit, sir. I grew up in a town where my contemporaries were driving around BMWs. Yeah. Yeah. My dad was making$33 ,000 a year working the crane. But let me tell you something about that town. And I think you'll appreciate this. I was blessed to be in that town because they had a great public school system. Yes. And so that public school system plus my grades got me into Tufts. And I had to borrow a lot of money to go through Tufts. But that was really how my career started. And I'm a direct beneficiary of that wonderful public school system in Port Washington.

11:26It was very memorable for me as well. And this is sort of relevant for thinking about Bruce Springsteen and Billy Joel because we think of them as kind of the avatars of upward mobility, which, of course, they were. But one of the surprising things I learned when I started working on this book is that they're actually products of downward mobility, that their families experienced significant setbacks in the generation before they were born. And that experience really did cast a shadow on their childhoods that lingered for a long time. And so they were they have that that vector, that grounding that's part of their story.

12:02But at the same time, they were born at a remarkably fortuitous moment. I mean, they were born at like the the exact point of the baby boom when things are really starting to, you know, take off. And, you know, you and I, of course, went to Tufts and we'd higher educations, but they came of age at a time when you could actually contemplate not getting a college education, you know, not that it was not that it was necessarily good advice or that their families were happy about the choices they made. But but there was there was enough room in the society. There was enough room in the record business.

12:37There was enough room for these incredibly passionate, devoted people, you know, to to to do what they most wanted to do. And, you know, that to a certain to a certain extent. I mean, there are always people like that. There will always be people like that. But they were also very lucky in terms of the circumstances of the environment in which they came of age. Well, well, well, well said. Let's go to Billy Joel for a second. And man, he'll be mad at me for saying this. I'm going to say it, though. I feel like he was the less popular of the two for some reason, even though his songs are prolific and he has great popularity today.

13:15But growing up in the 80s and you even described this in the book, the favored son was Bruce Springsteen. If I'm wrong about that, please tell me I'm wrong. But if I am right about that, can you give me some insights, sir, as to why I'm right about that? What did you think was going on there? Well, in a narrow sense, you're wrong in that I think Billy Joel has had more hits and sold more records if you toted up, you know, overall. And even in even in their moments in the 70s, I mean, Springsteen was not really a pop star. Billy Joel really was a pop star. But in a more important sense, I think I think that you're right.

13:49And there are a couple of reasons for that. I mean, some of them, you know, reflect, I think, well, I think one of the reasons for this is the nature of, you know, rock critics and the media that grew up around them, which came of age around the same time. And Bruce Springsteen, you know, is somebody who had, you know, pretty impressive social skills from the very beginning. Billy Joel, I think, had a little bit of a chip on his shoulder from the very beginning, notwithstanding, you know, encounters like the one you described. time. Springsteen also had the great fortune of encountering John Landau early in his career, who, you know, basically steered his education and, you know, helped him, I think, manage.

14:29And of course, he was a part of the rock critic establishment. So Springsteen was a critical darling, you know, from the outset in a way that Billy Joel wasn't. And Joel, I think, you know, that chip on his shoulder, you know, hurt him in terms of his image management. I think that's true to this day. I mean, you know, I get a little bit impatient sometimes when I listen to Bruce Springsteen because I feel like every sentence that comes out of his mouth has been burnished with an inch of its life. You know, like he's very sort of self-conscious and careful and, you know, and so on. And, you know, Billy Joel, I think, has, you know, spoken from the cuff a little bit more to the point of making, you know, mistakes like reading bad reviews from the stage when he's sort of upset about it.

15:09You know, I do think that overall, Joel is the better musician. He has a classical training. His songs are perceptively complex. Springsteen, I think, is the better writer in terms of, you know, in terms of lyrics and storytelling, which, of course, is more accessible to sort of, you know, print media folks. I always say that, you know, if they had been born in an earlier generation, Billy Joel would have been writing songs for Broadway and Bruce Springsteen would have been a short story writer in magazines, you know. So to a certain extent, it reflects their sensibilities. It reflects the establishment of which they came of age.

15:48And it reflects the kind of work they've done. Favorite Billy Joel song? hmm that's a tough one um i really like uh i really like piano man i mean uh uh captain jack if you're going back if you're going back early you know i i think that a song like river of dreams is you know at the other you know 20 years later i mean he can he produced consistently good work over a period of time and you know maybe we'll talk about his decision to stop and what what that reflects but what's really marvelous about billy joel i think is the way in which he is he is he is a tremendous gifted mimic and i mean that in terms of i mean he doesn't mean version of born to run which i'm sure you've heard but but he is able to sort of capture the essence of earlier generations of pop performers and yet sort of put a top spin on it you know river of dreams is a great example of that because he does this doo-wop thing the tokens the lion sleeps tonight kind of a thing but then he imbues it with this meditation about middle age and so he just adds a whole other dimension to this catchy pop tune.

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18:20So I got to ask the same question. Favorite song for Bruce Springsteen. Then I want to get into why Billy stopped writing. I think it's a great topic and you do address it. What's your favorite Bruce Springsteen song? Well, it's funny. My favorite Bruce Springsteen song, and I feel almost guilty saying this because it sounds like I'm a little bit fussy or too much of an inside dopester. But I think my favorite Bruce Springsteen song is This Hard Land, you know, which he wrote around the time of Nebraska, but never actually ended up making an album until he put it on sort of greatest hits. It's like a beautiful distillation, I think, of his entire vision, you know, in terms of hope and sorrow and all that kind of stuff.

18:58I also am deeply fond of the song that he wrote for his mother, The Wish. You know, he wrote so many songs from his father. And, of course, that's a great sort of saga. But the depth of the affection that he shows for his mother, who is an Italian mother, the light of his life and that and that expressive Italian Catholicism, which I'm sure you know well, you know, was such a big part of what made him the great artist that he that he is. And why did Billy stop writing? Well, at one level, I think it's as simple as a matter of not enjoying it. I mean, he has often referred to the piano as that beast with 88 teeth, you know, and I think, you know, I think we all know people that for whom, you know, some writing, whether it's writing music or writing words is torture and it's hard to do.

19:43And so I think that that was part of it. I think part of it is that a perception on his part that maybe, you know, the quality of the work might have been declining. And I think overall, I think you can, you know, you can make a case for that. I mean, for me, and I talk about this in the book, the irony of Billy Joel is that he's at his weakest, in my view, when he just tries to do straight rock, when he isn't trying to invoke, adapt, allude to sort of earlier generations. Springsteen, you know, his work, I wouldn't say, has gotten better at time. Indeed, I think in some ways it's gotten weaker.

20:18But he has a different makeup. I think he has a deep need for this. And I think he values work for the sake of working in an important sense because clearly he's not doing it for the money at this point. And he doesn't have the platform that he once did. It's just that many of us have. I mean we just don't know what to do but work. It's the source of value and meaning in our lives even if it's not necessarily immediately remunitive or something that has a clear payoff in another sense as well. So your book made me think of something I was dying to ask you, which is probably why I invited you on.

20:55So this is the central question. So I want you to think about the answer before you respond. OK, we both are attracted to musicians and music who both like songs. I'm sure you have your own playlist on your phone or your car, as do I. And yet we also know there are thousands, if not millions, of unbelievably good singers, talented songwriters. They never break out. They never turn into iconic figures. Yet the two men that you are writing about, they do. And they do for different reasons. And I guess this is a Simon Cowell question. what is the x factor that you look at or what do you think knock them into the stratosphere and yet there's thousands of other people that could probably have the scale and range of billy joel's voice and perhaps even be as good of a songwriter couldn't get there well there are two necessary but insufficient initial answers to that question the first which is perhaps the least satisfying but but must be said especially in the context the way you're framing the question is that they were lucky.

22:04You know, I mean, luck is always a factor in the outcome of careers. And, you know, it's, it seems impossible to ignore that in their case. The second answer is that I think one can say that these were, objectively speaking, unusually talented people. I mean, they, you know, as we talked about a lot with Joel, I mean, you know, his ability to craft a hook, a catchy tune, you know, is, you know, is, is demonstrably attractive because he's been able to, he was able to do it over a period of time. I mean, you know, in pop music, you know, you can, you can cruise for a while, but, but your, your, your chance in the spotlight is brief unless you've really got something to say.

22:42And Springsteen, of course, you know, as a writer, as a, as a, as a kind of proto literary figure, although again, one with a great musical, you know, background and a sound that he forged. So anyway, so on one hand, you can say that they're lucky. On the other hand, you could say that, hey, they're really great. But I think the real answer to your question, actually, and there's one other, there's four parts. The third part is, again, the moment in which they arrived. They arrived when there was an infrastructure in place where they could succeed. You know, there was a fat and happy record business that was willing to underwrite these guys for a few years and have a few misses until they found their way.

23:17that's not that's not there anymore you know um they they they could and did tour for years to to support their records so you know part of their luck is the moment in which they arrived i mean they could they if you assume that they'd be successful today and i'm not sure they would but if you assume they did it wouldn't it would happen differently it would have to happen differently but the last and perhaps the most important or at least for lack of a better term original answer i can give you to the question is that i think that both of these guys and this goes to the title of the book, were able to compellingly embody an American myth of upward mobility about which they had some sense of self-consciousness and were able to articulate for a generation of people who could really relate to it on some visceral level.

24:05No question. Yeah. And I think that people really responded to that and still do. No question. And this is a little bit of a follow up question. But but when I think of Billy Joel and I think of Bruce Springsteen, I think of a celebration of America. It's a gritty America. It's an aspirational, like you say, upward mobile America. There's a sweetness to glory days and there's a sadness to Allentown. But they're both capturing something about the American spirit of perseverance and trying to reach your dreams. Am I getting that right, sir? Yeah, I think you are getting it right. And there's a crucial ingredient here of love and loyalty.

24:47You know, they love the country. They're loyal to the country. And it's precisely because that love and loyalty is so palpable that they have a certain kind of credibility or seriousness when they're critical of it. You know, it's just that much more compelling and believable. You know, when Billy Joel talks about Allentown in 1980 or when Springsteen, you know, talks about the river. I mean, that's what makes the tragedy all the more painful. You know, and on the other hand, that's what makes a song like Born in the USA so so ultimately ennobling. You know, I mean, I don't think Lee Iacocca was necessarily wrong to think that this could make a good Chrysler.

25:27What he sensed correctly is that it's a song about resilience and it's a song about, you know, it's a song about, you know, coming back. Yeah. Yeah. Look, the 80s were about the American renewal. Right. And so that captured the essence of all that. Before I let you go, you published another brilliant book in 2023 called The American Dream. How do you view that book now? Tell us a little bit about that book. Actually, that book came out in 2003. That goes back a way. I meant to say 2003. I'm sorry. I said 23. Yeah. You know, that's a book, you know, you won't be surprised to hear that, you know, came out of, you know, my own experience.