Breaking the Hollywood Boys’ Club with Elaine Goldsmith-Thomas

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1:30Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open Book, where I talk to some of the brightest minds about everything surrounding the written word. That's everything. That's from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Before we dive in, make sure to follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to leave a review. Good or bad, I want to hear from you. I want to hear whether you're enjoying it or where we can improve. And I can take the hits, so let me know. If you don't like something, say it straight. Now let's get into it.

2:14Welcome to Open Book. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci. Very happy to be joined by Elaine Goldsmith-Thomas. And the title of the book is Climbing in Heels. This is a novel. And Elaine, of course, is a Hollywood agent. She's turned producer and now author. But man, is this a great book. You know what? This is my era. This is the problem with this book. This is my era. Elaine, it's good to have you on before we get into the book. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you make your way to Hollywood and writing and all this fun stuff that you're doing? Oh, gosh, I think I've always been a writer.

2:55And you know, there's no straight line in careers. I think the secret to any career, Anthony, you would probably back this up is the ability to pivot to to go one way and then go, oh, fuck, that's not working. Oops, sorry. I don't know. Am I allowed to say that? And turn around and find another way. You're on Anthony Scaramucci's podcast. You're allowed to curse. there you go thank you that's what we do well in that case yes I was um born in LA I was born in the San Fernando Valley my mother I was born in Pacoima my mother called it Arlita then we moved to Sepulveda and my mother called it Northridge I never really knew where I lived I just knew it wasn't good enough for my mother but I also knew that image was more important than truth And I watched how she sort of nudged our reality to become her truth or her truth to become our reality.

3:53Right. So I think my ambition was she was both my fuel and my kryptonite. And I think that, you know, all she wanted was to live closer to Ventura Boulevard. You know, that was the great divide between it was like the hills and the hills not. If you lived in the hills, man, you were something. If you didn't, you lived where the housekeepers lived. We lived where the housekeepers lived. So, you know, my path to Hollywood was wanting, I didn't even want to get to Hollywood. I just wanted to live in the hills. probably something like that. Anyway, you know, I went to school. I helped, much like one of the characters in my book, I helped a boy I was deeply enamored with.

4:45I helped him get an agent. I realized there was no science to it, that people put their fingers in their mouths to see which way the wind was blowing. And I understood that passion speaks. And I was passionate. I was passionate to get the yes. So I worked a whole summer before going to college to get him an agent. And I finally did. And he ended up getting little roles for a while. I thought he was going to be, you know, chiseled into the Mount Rushmore of Hollywood. And then he dumped me. But I never, I never forgot how good it felt to get the yes. And when I graduated college, I remembered how good it felt.

5:32You know, my dad was a salesman who taught me that you have to really believe in what you're selling. And then you have to connect. You have to figure out a way in. And I guess the ambition of my mother and the drive and tenacity of my father formed and informed me. So there you go. you know what i love the honesty in the story we're all driven by uh different things our emotions our uh connections to our families and our and we idealize our lives to be right so i love i love the honesty in your story let's talk about this fictional story the story is set in the 1980s agency world okay so there was no misogyny in that world there was no male chauvinism in that world, of course, right, Elaine?

6:27As I like to say, there's a lot of blow and blow jobs. And you can't judge these women. I don't even know if you can judge the men through the prism of 2025. It was the world, you know, people say to me, how did you do it? And when you're facing terrain like that, you just do it. You look at the mountain in front of you and you begin to climb. You don't judge it. if you judge it, then you're, you're playing the referee in the games down the field, right? You can, you can cry foul, but you won't be in the game. And the characters in my book wanted to be in the game and I wanted to be in the game.

7:07So, and the terrain that I was faced with was, yeah, incredibly misogynistic. Some of the guys, not all of them, they called their, their, it was, you wanted to be a sexy Terry if you could, but if your wiggle was more waddle or you were too loud or too smart or too ambitious, you had to figure another way to get that job. As one of the characters in my book had to figure out a way in because there was no, the three women that really are at the center of this book, there's no straight line for them. So they had to leverage every opportunity metaphorically in heels. Okay. So there's Beanie, Mercedes, and Ella.

7:53Those are the three women. Who is Elaine the most like? Are you the most like Ella? Oh, thank you. No, I am probably Beanie. I am probably most like Beanie. I mean, I guess they're all a little bit like me and not, but Beanie is closest to me because Beanie was also born in the valley. Beanie was driven, you know, all three of these women were sort of shaped by their mothers. Beanie wanted to please her mother. Ella was repelled by her mother, who was an ex-debutant, who believed that separate was equal. And Mercedes Lydides sort of became her mother. In other words, she leveraged every opportunity trying to find a rich man to protect her.

8:47And each one of them, the shadow and echo of their mother informed their trajectory. I probably was like Beanie, though her path wasn't mine. Beanie did work for a misogynist. Beanie was introduced to cocaine and a lot of porn. And she worked for a guy who very much did not want her to succeed. She knew too much. She was too smart. So while that wasn't me, it was a lot of people that I knew. And so I sort of, you know, the ability, fiction, gosh, I posted something on my Instagram the other day. I can't remember the quote now. It was something that through fiction, you're able to tell the truth.

9:40I'm going to find that quote because it was such an amazing quote. Fiction allows you to turn left, right? The quote is Camus, and it's, fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth. And I think it allowed me the ability to tell people what it was like in the 80s, especially for women who weren't the Angie Dickinson in the Rat Pack. You know, they weren't one of the guys that they could hang out with that didn't threaten them. and it also allowed me to turn left and invent things and um there are a lot of facts in the book and a lot of fiction all right it's summer and let's be honest there's nothing worse than tossing and turning in a hot room sweating through the sheets like you're on a bad cable news hit i've had those nights and they can be miserable which is why cozy earth's bamboo viscose sheets are a game changer.

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11:19You know, I find that fiction is probably the best pathway into understanding humans because of what you just said. You've got the license now, because it's fiction, to tell the truth in the story. And so when you - Well said, Anthony. Well said. but i think but i think it is that's the reason why i love fiction i really i learned so much from fiction think of william shakespeare how much he teaches us about human behavior but but i want to yeah yeah climbing in heels for a second because uh i think your life is that right you climbed in heels and you you you took the obstacles in front of you without victimhood even if you were being victimized, you shed the idea of victimology and you just kept going.

12:10And I think that I think the message is something that should resonate today. How how should that how should that message resonate today in 2025? Well, it seems to be resonating. They're calling it the beach read of the summer. People are young. What's interesting is young women are reading and going, wow, the 80s seem great. And I go, yeah, I guess so. And people who are older are reading it and wryly smiling. I mean, yeah. Again, it's that metaphor. You can play the referee. You can say foul, but you're missing the game. So you kind of have to look at whatever obstacle is in front of you. This is how I would translate it for now.

13:02well and i would say you you you yeah go ahead i'm sorry i want you to react to this okay so i live in minhacet this is a suburban town and every woman in this town watches yellowstone or did watch yellowstone and because there's macho alpha men kicking the shit out of each other in Yellowstone. And there seems to be a shortage of that sort of electricity in our society now. We seem like we have muted those people. So I feel like people that are reading your book and watching Yellowstone, there's something there to that. What is that? Am I missing something? Is there something there sociologically?

13:50Well, it's so interesting that you called Yellowstone that when I think of Yellowstone, I think of that character who's Costner's daughter, who's kick ass. I mean, you can't kill her. She's the Terminator. You know, they run her over, they burn her up, they blow her up. She just doesn't die. And she keeps going and she keeps smarting and outsmarting them. So when you say Yellowstone, I think, yeah, there are sexy men in there, but there's this kick ass woman in there. I guess. Yeah. I mean, I think there's I think there's something for everybody in there. That's your book, isn't it? That is my book.

14:29My book is about navigating, about navigating the waves on a beach and understanding that if you get knocked down, you stand up and you try again. You might try differently. You might wear a life preserver. You might try differently. But it's about – life is really about the climb. It's, you know, for those who haven't read it, I don't want to ruin the ending, but it really is the ascent rather than the destination. All of those cliches and these women in the book are strategic and they have to be. I think we all have to be a little strategic when we're faced with the unexpected daily kind of eruptions of life.

15:19Right, Anthony? I mean, I look at you and your career and you have an interesting, amazing career that you couldn't have planned, right? You know, my mentor, a woman named Sue Mengers, said to me years ago, I mean, she's sort of the model for Sheila Day in my book, one of the most powerful agents in the world. And she would say, honey, my career wasn't planned. It just happened. And I think much of life is about embracing what's happening and the reactions we have to it. Because none of us could have predicted the trajectory. But if you have the desire, like the women in my book do, to leave their footprint in heels, then go for it.

16:14Because here's the truth. The only thing stopping you is you. If Anthony, if you want to write a book, if you want to write a screenplay, you want to become an actor, do it. The only thing stopping you is you. And it took me a long time to understand that. I was a top agent in the 90s. I was a big, big time agent. I represented a lot of movie stars, a lot of women. you know, Julia Roberts and Jennifer Lopez and Madonna and Susan Sarandon, a lot of, and men, Spike Lee, Tim Robbins. And I, and Nicolas Cage, I was good at it, but it wasn't all I was good at. I was a writer and I was afraid to tell people, especially my clients, that that's what I wanted to do as well, even though being a storyteller made me a better agent.

17:12And you have to find the way to your ambition and you have to allow yourself to do more than one thing. Who says that we should make a decision when we're 20 and that's what we should be doing when we're 50, right? I think you're finding your way to your multifaceted career, Anthony. And I think it's, you more interesting. It makes your path more interesting.

17:42I wanted to be in Hollywood, Elaine. You did? So come to Hollywood. Come to Hollywood. You're not dead. I didn't have the balls. Yeah, but I just want you to know that when I was a kid, that's what I wanted. But I was anxious about money, so I went to Wall Street. You know why I went to Wall Street, Elaine? because that's where the money was. It was like Willie Sutton with the banks, right? I knew if I just had a middling career on Wall Street, I would be rich enough to take care of my parents. That's literally the simplicity of the thought process of my career. But play the record out, Anthony, okay?

18:18You're not dead. You're a thriving, huge, well-spoken personality who's done so many things. You'll be my agent. Oh, you wanted to act. Is that what you wanted to do? Yeah, of course. Yeah, I wanted to be a James Bond villain or something like that. Oh, see, you could have taken the path to Hollywood after you made money and took care of your parents. You could have moved them out west. Like in your parallel universe, you move them out west. You've got money so you can bankroll a movie. Then you could have done your own movie and starred in it. Well, that's why I got my son. I bankrolled my son in his movie.

18:59That was the key for him. You know, he got his first short film in Tribeca. You write at the beginning of this book. You're pulling a quote. And when I read your book, I was like, oh, my God, this woman. I mean, I don't know you, but you make us, like, fall in love with you because I'm going to read this quote. I want you to react to this quote, okay? Okay? beware that when fighting monsters you yourself do not become a monster elaine for when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes also into you now that's frederick nietzsche and of course i read that in the mid 80s and albert stone put that on wall street one by the way i don't know if you remember that that was in the screenplay no that was michael douglas said that he won he won the He won the Academy Award.

19:51He said, you got to be careful when you're staring into that abyss. You could become that. Okay. And I've lived my life. If you took that and you took Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol and you put both of those in the fly machine that we put Jeff Goldblum in in the 1980s, you've fused those two ideas. I didn't want to be Jacob Marley. I wanted to be the reformed Ebenezer Scrooge charitable. ball and I didn't want to stare into the abyss of the greed on wall street and become that and you did that in Hollywood okay so how did you do it Elaine yeah well by the way that's a huge compliment by the way and I mean that because thank you I mean that you've done that thank you thank you and you and you thank you thank you Thank you.

20:46What I like to say is, look, this book is about friendship and survival and betrayal. It's about standing up when they pass you by and saying, I won't quit when they want you to quit. But it's also about how some of those women become very much like the monsters they worked for. and I think it's about forgiving them a bit. You hope you're not monstrous. You hope you can be better than the generation that came before and if you are, you have to correct. I think that life changed with Me Too. I think that they shined a giant light on the outrageousness that was allowed in the Hollywood that you wanted to go to.

21:47It was outrageous, Anthony. Harvey Weinstein wasn't the exception. He was the rule. How did he exist? There were hundreds of him. He just kept going. and continued. And somebody was smart enough, and I certainly applaud Ronan Farrow for shining a light on it. So now I think there is a big, the entire world is watching itself. um i'm not talking even about the outward the outward monstrous behavior i'm talking about the monsters inside this and the entitled narcissists who are desperate to hang on to their power and their youth okay so where when i close the book and i look up and say okay okay, what did I learn from the book?

22:54I learned that you can keep your integrity and you can climb in your heels and step over and around things and dodge and weave and have a successful career. It's not a perfect career. No one's career is, but you can survive if you keep your compass together. Is that what I got out of the book? I like that you got that out of the book. And I like that you forgave the women because I don't know that they always make the right moral choices or by other people's standards, but they did by their own compass. Oh, but the men make all the moral choices, Alex. Well, you know, look, some of the men were quite decent in the book.

23:32Yeah, exactly. But I was going to say, you think the men, the men, though, exactly. Yeah, I think that, here's what I would say. Yes, do the very best you can with the terrain that's in front of you and enjoy the climb. I think as you close the book, Anthony, what you recognize is, especially with Beanie, she had summited, right? And sometimes as you look back, when people say they miss the hungry years, it's the climb. It's the people you meet along the way. Take note of them. But more than anything, I guess if I want people to take anything away from the book, I think, I think, look, I think they're going to enjoy the read.

24:21It seems to be the beach read of the summer. People are loving it. And taking a page from my book, it's never too late, Anthony. You want to go to Hollywood, go to Hollywood. Look at, I've got a lot of skin products going here. It's a beautiful face. It's and and trying to stay moisturized, Elaine. You took care of your parents. You financed your son. Now it's your turn. See, and that's what I think. I think these I think these women found the way to the careers they wanted and they weren't always planned. Right. And that's what climbing in heels is about. I mean, they're you know, they're saying it's, you know, little valley of the dolls.

25:04It's a little steamy. Did you find it steamy, Anthony? I loved it. I loved it. You know, let me, let me tell you something. Okay. Everything about it is inside the dark channel in our minds, right? I mean, come on, you know, we, we, we are all a little like this, whether we want to admit it to ourselves or not. Thank you. Even the most Puritan are a little like this. All right. So listen, I I'm going to change this up on my producers. What I usually do is I end the interview with five words. And then what I asked the author to do is I'm going to say the word and you respond to it in a sentence or two.

25:38Okay. But I'm going with 10 this time because I think this is so interesting. And some of them are people. And so you don't have to get too detailed. I'm going to say the person's name. You give me a sentence. Okay. You ready? Yes, sir. What are you going to say? I say Jennifer Lopez. You say what? Jennifer Lopez, I would say, um, limitless. I mean, if anybody inspired me, Anthony, it was Jennifer. She encouraged me to not be afraid. I've been writing under pseudonyms, and I've been writing uncredited for years, Anthony. And I was too afraid to stand in my truth as a writer. I thought people would judge me or they wouldn't want to work with me as a producer.

26:22I was afraid. So she was the one who said, stand in your truth. This was a dancer who who became a singer, a dancer who became an actor, who became a singer, who became an international brand. And she empowered me to do it as well. There's a lot of actors who want to sort of hold their fame to their own chest. And she said, you've got to live your dream. That's who she is. So I'm her producing partner. I don't know if you caught what I said. I don't know her. I've never met her. She seems incredibly likable. And somebody like me, growing up the way I grew up, identifies with her. I have a soft spot for her.

27:05Yeah, no, I did hear that. That's just me looking at her from a distance. You know, it's funny. I don't know how many actors, she's my producing partner, would have said, look, you go off on your book tour. You know, you do you. Who would have held me on her shoulders the way she did. I think that's quite extraordinary. I do. knowing actors like I do. So let's go to these last... Okay. Let's go to these last couple. I'm going to have you repeat a few if you don't mind, okay? I want to start again with Beanie Rosen. I'd say Beanie is a... Beanie has survived her mother, her father, a misogynistic industry, and found her way

27:56to her ambition. She is a survivor. Mercedes-Benz. Mercedes-Benz learned from her mother, who she thought was her sister, how to leverage opportunities to find a safe harbor and ended up doing that. Ella Gatti. Eligati was so busy fighting tradition, wanting to find her own way and her own voice. And, you know, really believed rules were for sheep and she never wanted to join a flock. So she started her own. Okay, this is the last one. I'm going to give you the final word. Elaine Goldsmith Thomas. A work in progress. Yes. The best days are to come, Elaine. The better. The best days are to come.

28:55The best days are ahead. Yes. Here's what I want to leave you with, Anthony. If you can hear me. We don't only live once. We live every day. We die once. So every single day is a second chance to go to Hollywood, Anthony, to make your dreams come true. The best days are right now. yeah now when you fly to london tonight just remember that i'm gonna come talk to you about you're gonna be my career coach you're gonna be my career you got it you got it the title of the book is climbing in heels a novel it is a phenomenal beach read there's so much going on in the book but it's also allegories about human behavior and understanding the different channels in our minds.

29:46And I really tell you, I love, I love the book and I wish you great success with it. And, uh, I'm sure you're going to get a TV deal out of this book and other things. It's just that good. Oh, Anthony, thank you. Let me just add this. We have a TV deal. I'm writing it with Darren. I'm writing it with Darren star. We sold it. We have 10, 10 episodes on the air on Peacock already. So there you go. Maybe that's your acting role. Oh, I gotta, I gotta check it out but you say it's 10 episodes you haven't debuted it yet you're in the process we're we're writing it writing it okay good yeah well there you go i can play i trust me i can put i can play a misogynist chauvinist from the 80s there you go okay i live there i live there i've been there okay just something to keep in mind i see it now you know john ham john ham is on a john ham that big tall handsome son of a bitch is unavailable okay you need you need you need some Tom Cruise-sized actors, I'm your guy.

30:40Okay. Got it. Thank you. Lots of love on you. Bye. I am Anthony Scaramucci, and that was Open Book. Thank you so much for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your friends and make sure you hit follow or subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. While you're there, please leave us a rating or review. If you want to connect with me or chat more about the discussions, it's at Scaramucci on X or Instagram. I'd love to hear from you. I'll see you back here next week.