Could Gen Z's View of Work Break America? With David Bahnsen

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1:30Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open Book, where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word, from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know, I can roll with the punches, so let me know.

2:04Anyways, let's get to it.

2:13work and the meaning of life two of the main themes in today's episode and they're important ones my guest david bonson's new book makes the case that our understanding of work and its role in our lives is deeply flawed it's something we should appreciate and not just as a means to an Let's go to David, who tells us why.

2:41Joining us now on Open Book, David Bonson. He's the founder and managing partner and chief investment officer of the Bonson Group. But he's also a bestselling author. This is one of many books that he has written and one of many books that I have read. The title of the book is Full Time, Work and the Meaning of Life. You know, I think you're the William F. Buckley of our time, I actually think. You know, it's interesting. You're making headway. You're breaking through the block of ice. There's a lot of grossness to our political rhetoric, but you're a clear thinker and you're a clear writer. And I'm a fan of all your books.

3:24But why did you decide to write this one related to the relationship with work, which is something Emerson and Thoreau, they've all tried to tackle? I think, Anthony, that there is a societal moment we're living in that is theoretically a breaking point. There's a make or break opportunity here in that of all the things I could say negative about where I think society is, the political tribalization that drives me crazy, the polarization we have culturally, the red state, blue state conflicts, all these things that are, I think, really unfortunate in American life because for all of our diversity and differences, it's very um odd to me that people now hate each other over these differences you know it used to be that someone who liked midtown manhattan like you and i do and someone who liked the mountains in montana like someone else they disagreed with each other but they didn't hate each other and now they hate each other and so i look at all these differences and things going on and one of the things that to me can hold the american experiment together is the entrepreneurial DNA, the shared affinity for risk-taking, the appreciation for labor and the fruits of labor that has been a vital part of the American experiment for 250 years.

4:52And I see that unraveling. I see a lower regard for work, a lower appreciation for successful work unfolding before our very eyes. And I see it from people on the right and the left. And I see it from people of faith and people that fancy themselves secular. And so to me, this issue would accelerate our path to being a more European-like state quicker than anything else in the political arena. And I felt compelled to write about it. Okay. I have a theory. After reading this book, first of all, I love the title, and I want you to get into how you titled it. But I have a theory I want to test on you.

5:32I was born in 1964. 64. I'm the last of the baby boomers demographically. That that era was 46 to 64. If if you so I graduated in 1982 from high school, if you were born the year I graduated, you are now 42 years old. And so definitionally, you are in your mid age. You are now an adult. And I have a feeling that the this generation was very coddled. I'm not saying that we weren't coddled, but they were very coddled. And I have a feeling that the self-esteem movement, the ninth place trophies for soccer, all of these things have led people to become excessively righteous in their point of view.

6:17At the very same time, you had this proliferation of social media and this algorithmic technology that reinforces our views or our likes or our tastes. We dial into the same TV programs that reinforce our views, the podcast, radios, whatever it may be. And we're not even living in the same world anymore, David. And so I find if I, you're one of the more agreeable people and I can have an intellectual conversation with you, a intellectual discourse, we can agree or disagree on something. And we both come out of the situation better are informed. But I find that that's no longer the case. You go to places like universities or other places, you talk to these people, they have a totally different fact set that they're living off of than your fact set.

7:07And you're crossing like this. And then the hatred breeds in like you're a dummy. How could you possibly feel this way? Okay, so what did I get wrong? What am I missing? Well, I think that your assessment of the lay of the land is exactly accurate. And I wonder the coddling, how much that is at play in terms of the low view of work. One of the things I propose in the book is that the boomers, and I recognize you're right there at that kind of line between where the boomers ended and the generation X that I'm a part of started. But there really wasn't a more productive generation in human history than the boomers.

7:53The production of goods and services and the basic output measured economically from the boomers was the most productive that the world has ever seen. Yet there's this other component that was very different. And I mean different in the sense that we had never once had a generation that entered the workforce with an eye on retirement, with a vision towards working so that you can then check out for the last 20, 25 years of your life. And I believe that all at once, the boomers gave us a positive legacy of working and output and aspiration and wealth building and a negative of sort of portraying the idea that you're doing it so you can stop doing it.

8:35And you know that I'm an exception and I sure as heck know you're an exception. I don't think guys like you and me are wired to be able to stop. But I look around the society and see there's about 10 ,000 boomers a day retiring. And the notion of people that have been reasonably successful, and I don't mean hyper wealthy, but they've made it, they've done it, they have a nest egg, and they've been productive for 30 plus years in a given field. And now they're going to go to villages in Florida and drink and golf all day long. I find it absolutely depressing. But see what to your point on the lower the younger generations, in addition to them being coddled, they also saw their parents talk about work as if it was something you did to not have to do it anymore, counting the days to turning 60 or 65 or whenever the golden watch was coming and all that kind of stuff.

9:36And I just think the millennials beat them to it. They just said, well, you want to talk about work as this thing to stop doing when you're 60. I'm going to start talking about a thing I don't want to do when I'm 30. And you combine that with the coddling that told them everything was okay. I think it is made for a very different mentality in the way that each generation approaches work. Okay. I mean, very well said. You articulate this very well in your book. Why call it full-time, which is a title I love? Yeah. So there's two reasons. First and foremost, I love the shorthand kind of summary of the fact that I do not view my job.

10:16I've been in a position for some time where I could work less and still make the money I make, but I would be less productive. That full time is not about the hours, the pay, the status. It's about the mentality of productivity and that I want to be full time committed to being my best self, my most productive, innovative, creative self I can be. The secondary reason is a bit more niche within the faith community. As you know, I'm a Christian. Take my faith and my faith distinctives very seriously. And there's a book that's very, very, very popular. It sold a million copies. You know how hard it is to sell a million copies of a book organically called Half Time, Moving from Success to Significance.

11:04And it's just one of these midlife crisis books encouraging people that, okay, well, you've been successful. You've had your careers and all that stuff, but now it's time to focus on being significant. And I hate that mentality. And I find it reasonably offensive that one would suggest that people in their success, in the things they do that build not only commercial success, but personal, professional, you know, achievement, that those things aren't significant, that they're not significant to God, that they're not significant to society, that they're not significant to the service of others they represent.

11:40I think it implicitly captures a terrible view of economics and a terrible view of culture. And so I wanted to sort of transcend that halftime mentality and title my book full time. It works. It works for me. And you are a full time worker. So am I. And I think you get joy out of your work. I don't think my work makes me feel like I'm working. Even my darkest moments at work, and I've had several, I feel like it's part of a process and it's part of a journey. and you have to take the good with the bad. You know, there's a guy that we're both close to. I know him very well. His name is David Rubenstein.

12:15He's the former founder and one of the managing partners at Carlisle, 74 years old now. I went to visit him once on the island of Nantucket. He has this spectacular house on the bluff overlooking the Atlantic Ocean. It was a beautiful summer day. I got to the front door. There was a placard on the front door, David. It said, rather be working. And so here is this man who had built this beautiful house on the bluff to, quote unquote, retire in. And at age 70 plus, he's now taking control of the Baltimore Orioles. What is it, David? What is in the DNA of a David Bonson or a David Rubenstein that wires them like that so that their full time experience, which is mostly a work related experience, is something they want to continue to do?

13:04Well, you know, it's interesting. I would love to say as a man of faith that perhaps it's something theological and spiritual, whether one is Jewish or Catholic or Protestant or what have you. But I think that in my case, I have strong beliefs in my kind of transcendent belief system that drive me. But there is a sense in which we all know too many people that also have faith distinctives and don't feel driven that way. And I know so many people that seem to not be connected to the sort of transcendent faith system that do have it. And that story with Rubenstein, I've told you before that it was at your conference where I heard and met Ken Langone.

13:50And this guy blew me away. It's a very Rubenstein-like story. Obviously, multi-billion dollar net worth, man of incredible achievement, both in the private sector and in philanthropy. And he's just wearing a suit and tie every day. going off having a lunch and he just said i get up and do it because i i know what happens if i don't and and he feels wired to just continue going and driving and that was an early salt when that conversation happened yeah it really impacted me yeah it was 10 years ago it was 2014 uh kenny who's been a mentor of mine forever um he he's had many great lines uh but one of the best Ken Langone lines is that helping others is the key to your success and it's the key to your happiness.

14:38And of course, he went on to use the money that he's made in his career to fully fund the Langone Hospital. So the NYU Langone, but he's also now set up an endowment where if you go to NYU medical school, you don't pay tuition. Ken Langone pays your tuition. It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, you get into that school, you go tuition free. And so it's one of the most sought after medical schools in the world now because of that. But that's you, David. I mean, I want to pay you a huge compliment here. You are a thinker and you're looking to the younger generation. The younger generation has a vastly different view, as you point out in this book, about work.

15:17So are they lacking purpose? Are they lonely? Are they going to leave the labor force you know my dad left the labor force at age 65 on June 9th his birthday but he was in a union and by the way he worked outside his whole life he really couldn't work much longer on that job at least you know you and I may be able to go like Warren Buffett into our 90s but we're indoors we're out at direct sunlight and there's no heavy lifting you know a man that's working outside I get why you go into retirement literally on your birthday but tell us about this younger generation, where are we going and why? So on one hand, and I don't know if your experience with Gen Z employees has been the same as mine, there is a sense in which I feel a little encouragement or a little hope because the Gen Zers that I've hired and worked with and what I've observed culturally, both my wife and I have become big students of generational theory.

16:13They do want mentorship. They do ask questions for their own self-improvement, where my experience with millennials was largely they had a lot to tell me about what I could do better, where Gen Z had a lot to ask about what they could do better. And I think that that's a very important distinction between the two. But there is a huge sense in which I think we have a big need. And a lot of this, Anthony, you know, my advocacy of free enterprise, we have a lot of education to do with Gen Z because when they say they want mission and purpose, there is a sense in which they say, I love what this company is doing, but it just doesn't have a mission for me.

16:50and they need to have something stapled on to a company with some sort of social justice mission or something that strikes them as more virtuous. And I think the reason for that is that they were not taught that the production of goods and services that meet the needs of humanity is a social cause, that it is driving more well-being for others. And very candidly, it's often doing more than even some of these so-called philanthropic or nonprofit groups. I use the example of Elon Musk. You know, he used to be kind of a darling of the left. He's now become a darling of the right. But regardless, just put all the politics and stuff aside, what are the three things that he's done, which, by the way, are in multi, multi, multi-billion dollar enterprises and aspirations?

17:36I mean, after taking all the money from PayPal and having that kind of score, he said, well, I want to go save the planet environmentally and start electric vehicle company with Tesla. And then out of the massive amount of wealth created there, parlays it into, I want to have human beings occupy Mars with SpaceX. And then he says, I think free speech is under attack. I want to go by Twitter. So you're talking about three enterprises with either tens of billions, and in some cases, hundreds of billions of enterprise value. And in all three cases, There was some cause around it connected to the company that was massive.

18:14Anything that guy does in the nonprofit world is destroying value. He should be doing nothing but for-profit wealth creation activities for the simple reason that he's good at it and he's not good at the other. And with Ken Langone, he's been a wildly charitable person and you see his name on the hospitals and you know the incredible impact he's had. At Salt, he was telling us about what he did to raise the money to save St. Patrick's Cathedral and getting Jews and Protestants and Muslims and Catholics to all give to this cause. But you know what else he did? He started Home Frickin' Depot. The amount of jobs created out of that, the amount of wealth created out of that.

18:54So I want Gen Z to realize that there's a cause in enterprise, that there is the meeting of needs of humanity because we cannot have our needs met. if we're not meeting the needs of others. And I don't think we have to virtue signal on top of it for the work to be meaningful. Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from EBCLIS. After an initial dosing phase, about four in 10 people taking EBCLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. EBCLIS, LibriKizumab, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema.

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20:49There's no question. And there's a ton of them. And again, myself included. But I'm going to indict the Baby Boomers for a moment because I feel as a political class, the ones that went into politics and the culture that they created has been very destructive to us. It started out okay. Bill Clinton, like him or dislike him, him and Newt Gendry, two baby boomers, they fought it out, but they balanced the budget. But we got into the wars and we got into the global financial crisis and we have spiraled debt. We went from George Washington to George Walker Bush, $7 trillion, David. Barack Obama, Donald Trump and Joe Biden,$28 trillion now and counting.

21:34So what do you say to that? Productive people, but as a political class, didn't the baby boomers over promise, under tax, and are setting up this new generation that you're describing with a generational forward transfer of wealth? In addition to the money that's going to go to them in their inheritance, they are inheriting a 30 to$40 trillion worth of debt on the federal government's balance sheet. Yeah, there's absolutely no question that the legacy of the boomers at a macro level, not targeting any particular people or whatnot, but macro, the legacy of the boomers is one of the most self-centered generations in history.

22:16If I can go back to my little faith point I made a moment ago as a pretty consistent Bible thumper here. I'd also add the sexual revolution has not really seemed to create happier people, just from my observation. So there's a lot that's come out of the legacy of that generation that is weighed on the soul of society. Economically, you're exactly right. And in addition to the spending and leaving the debt callously, they've also left a mentality that tells the next generation they can kick the can and the next generation after them, they can kick the can. And so what generation ends up having the courage, like the greatest generation that preceded the boomers who stood up to totalitarianism and fascism, what the generation will be that is willing to be fiscally honest for the sake of economic stability for their children and grandchildren, I don't know who it'll be.

23:16But it wasn't the boomers and it's clearly not going to be Gen X or Gen Y either. But this is my secondary question. That setup, has that affected this generation's view of work? It was like, oh my God, I'm walking into this trap here. Why don't I dial myself back and not care as much? Yeah, my answer is no, but I'm sympathetic to where it comes from. But the problem I have with it is the contrary indicators, the counterfactuals. I look at those things and forget me because I don't want to toot my own horn, but there's so many people that have mentality of, hey, forget the excessive government debt.

23:56Let's go to the two most obvious examples for Gen Z, student debt and ridiculous housing prices. You can look at it and say, this just isn't fair. I got a good job. I went to school. I've studied. And now the student debt is high and the housing prices are high. I can't get ahead. what do you do at that point? I think there's a mentality in the top 20 % of people that says, I'm going to go overcome it. I'm going to go figure it out. I'm going to perform and achieve necessary to meet that moment as unfair as it may be, as challenging and distressing as it may be. I'm going to deal with life on life's terms.

24:34And then I think there is a significant portion that have used it as a way to surrender. And then there's a middle ground that I think is the question for society. The old J.D. Vance, the one I liked, he wrote a book called Hillbilly Elegy. One of the greatest books I've read in a long time. I absolutely loved it. Everybody loved it. So I'm not being contrarian here. It was a very popular book. But he talks about that kind of disgruntled person in a white working class town. And in this case, it was in Ohio, but he had come from Appalachian Valley, whatever. And someone just saying, I can't get ahead and screw this, screw that.

25:10And he'd get a job, he'd get an opportunity and he would just sleep in and he wouldn't show up and he'd fail a drug test. And then he'd get fired and he would say, man, can you believe this ridiculous Obama economy? And J.D. Vance said, I'm not saying the Obama economy was great for everyone, but I will say this, it had nothing to do with this guy, right? He was a byproduct of his own decision. And that's what it's going to take. I wish housing prices were not so high. And I think it's inexcusable that we continue to constrain supply in such a way that we can't clear supply and demand in a more price efficient way.

25:43However, those things that we have in life that are unfair, you get to pick how you're going to respond. And I recommend people respond how the top 20 % are responding, which is meeting the moment and overcoming the challenge. Very well said. I want to switch to another topic. I could talk to you for several hours, but we limit ourselves here so we can get, I find a 30-minute podcast. I mean, Joe Rogan's a lot better than me as a podcaster, but three hours is long, man. I feel like the 30-minute podcasts are the ones that get digested. Let's go to the book of Genesis, and let's go to your thoughts about these allegories, these stories, God's book, the good book, and talk a little bit about the impact that it's had on you and talk about the guidance that's in the lessons of these old stories memorialized in the Old and New Testament.

26:37Well, it's my belief that people have to ask themselves the great questions in life. Who are we? Where did we come from? Why are we here? What do we need to do? And I believe very seriously that for those of us who do believe we were made by God, that there's a purpose. And when I read Genesis and try to get an idea of what that purpose is, I recognize a lot of people don't believe the same theological or philosophical things I do. But I wrote this book, and I didn't write it to capture what other people believe. I wrote it to capture what I believe. And what I believe is that God made mankind with an elevated dignity, that we have a soul that can never die, that we have an eternal destiny, that God cares about us and made us with a reason, with rational faculties, with self-preservation, with an interiority, the ability to be contemplative, to see beauty, to appreciate beauty, to create beauty.

27:37He didn't give that to the platypus or the dinosaurs or fish. And for that matter, he didn't even give it to the sun, moon, and stars. So he made a beautiful world, but he uniquely made us as the caretakers of the world, from which we decided to go invent the wheel and start a fire and build the pyramids and create civilization. So this great journey we're all living in, in my belief, comes out of God creating the world because we are made in his image and likeness, and he did so because we reflect his capacity as a creator, a producer, an innovator. Anthony, the most elitist thing I've ever heard is that there are 50 % of us who are capable of working and producing and 50 % who are not.