Four Billionaires and A Parking Attendant with Chris Ullman

0:04Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open Book, where I talk with some of the brightest This mind's out there about everything surrounding the written word, from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know, I can roll with the punches, so let me know.

0:38So anyways, let's get to it.

0:47My guest today, Christopher Ullman, has spent his career working with some of the most interesting and successful people out there. His new book, Four Billionaires and a Parking Attendant, is personal, funny, and ultimately a roadmap to becoming the best version of yourself. I have been privileged enough to know some of the people in this book too, and I've learned a lot from them over the years. So it's great to see Chris has put all of these great stories and wisdom on paper.

1:19So joining us now on Open Book is Christopher Ullman. He's a communications expert, four-time whistling grand champion and author. I actually went online to check out some of that and finding your whistle, Chris. We'll talk a little bit about that. But he's the author of a soon to be bestselling book for billionaires and a parking attendant, which is a phenomenal title. I don't know how you came up with that. Maybe you're smoking pot at the time, something, but it's a phenomenal title. And it gravitated me to the book and it's a great read. And it turns out we have a lot of friends in common. Let's start there.

1:53I have a friend that worked for the SEC for 20 plus years. He hates crypto. I love crypto, which is basically where we started in high school together. You talk about your dad and how he stopped once he felt he had achieved what he needed to, but he never encouraged you to do the same. So I want to go there. And we'll talk about John Stark in a second, but I thought what you said about your dad was fascinating. And we all have this relationship with our fathers, right? We want to impress our dad. I did. I wanted to make my dad proud. I'm sure you felt the same way. But tell me about that philosophy that your dad shared with you.

2:28Well, Anthony, thank you so much for having me as a guest. I'm really honored and excited to chat with you and share some cool stories with your listeners. So I'm really, I'm humbled that you honed in on the part about my father. So I grew up on Long Island, Massapequa Park. Some of your listeners probably have heard of it. And so my father was a, you know, depression era child. He passed away a couple of years ago at 86. And And since he didn't have anything as a kid, by the time he got to his 40s or 50s, and he was a kind of solid middle manager in corporate America, he worked at Grumman Corporation on Long Island, he just kind of stopped trying.

3:08Not kind of, he actually stopped trying. Like this notion of striving, he just stopped. And so it was this kind of juxtaposition because he had stopped striving. But then he always said to me, do your best, do your best, do your best. And part of the challenge was that I didn't really know what best meant. And that's kind of at the core of this book is that I went kind of from the minor leagues of Long Island where I didn't know presidents and chairmen and billionaires and the like. And then I moved to Washington after college. And I literally start working for billionaires and the chairman of federal agencies and chairman of committees and on Capitol Hill and CEOs of major corporations.

3:51And I said, ah, that's what being your best is. And so really, it set up this kind of just interesting kind of challenge in my brain, you know, as a kid. Like, I'm like, how can my father just stop trying? Like, that's crazy. You know, so I kind of tried to do my best, but I didn't really know what my best was until I came here. Yeah, that was interesting. I'm named after my uncle, Anthony. His last name is DeFeo. They moved his class. He was supposed to graduate in June of 1943. They moved his class up to March of 1943 to get him over for the war. And so he got shipped out to the UK and he ended up on Normandy Beach, survived the Normandy invasion, but was wounded fairly seriously on the way into France, maybe three weeks after the invasion.

4:43apropos to his generation. He healed in a hospital and went back to war, fought in the Battle of the Bulge, ended up at the Potsdam Conference after the war. But he came back and to use your words, stopped trying. I think the war flattened him and I think it traumatized him. And he was just happy to be alive. And I think he felt lots of guilt about living when some of his best friends for random reasons died. And he became the produce manager at the local A &P. And there you go. We're all driven by these different philosophies, you know. Listen, but he was a great man and a real American hero, and I'm sure so was your dad.

5:20For my listeners that don't know what Massapequa Park is, a fellow Long Islander, the nickname for Massapequa Park and Massapequa is matzo pizza. Pizza. It's basically Jews and Italians, okay? I mean, that's basically it, right? You're surrounded by Jews and Italians. Probably the best food on Long Island is in that area for that reason, because let's just face it, Jews and Italians love food. Am I wrong, Chris? I mean, you just love the food. You are completely right. Best Jewish delis, the best Italian restaurants. No question. I love coming down to the South Shore. I'm a North Shore baby. I grew up in Port Washington with your friend John Stark.

5:56But you said something that rang a bell in me, so I want to go to it. It's billionaires, CEOs, chairman. I'm from a blue collar family out here in Long Island. My dad was a crane operator. And so I was quite impressionable. Obviously, when I met the first president of the United States, the first president I met was probably Bill Clinton. I was in awe. I had the opportunity to be in the Oval Office as a young man at age 29. I was in awe. Of course, I got back there to work for Trump. It didn't last very long. I got fired after 11 days. But then I was like, holy shit, I'm actually working in the Oval Office as opposed to just walking through it.

6:33And so it's an amazing place, America. But tell me about not knowing billionaires and not knowing these high profile people and then meeting them. What did you learn? What did you learn about them versus normal people? Is F. Scott Fitzgerald right? Or the rich different from you and I? In the end, we're all God's children and equal in his eyes. But the billionaires, the chairman, the CEOs that I have been honored to work with, and that's one of the cool things about this book is that this is not me just interviewing a bunch of random people. I actually worked hand in glove with all 15 people in the book.

7:08So they are different and they have like intense purpose. They know where they're going. They have this drive that just propels them through the tiredness. And when they get sad or they feel like they're not getting there to just drive. It's incredible. They're incredibly strategic, meaning they can map out a pathway. And then they're tactically agile too, like this capacity to figure out what are the individual steps I need to get where I'm going. And they are a little crazy, no doubt about that. And they are thick-skinned because people are going to tell them, no, no, no, you can't do it over and over and over again.

7:53This happened to David Rubenstein constantly. Oh, don't do that, David. No one's ever done that before. And David said, I'm going to do it and just watch me. So these types of people, if there is an obstacle, they go through it, around it, under it, over it. It's really amazing. Now, one of the cool things about the book is, yes, you have to be indefatigable and strategic and problem solving and all that. But they are also incredibly generous, really good at building bridges, which we're not seeing on Capitol Hill these days, unfortunately. And there are some great stories in the book about people building bridges with people who think differently from them.

8:28Because in the end, successful people want to get crap done. They don't want to just have an issue or pat themselves on the back. They actually want to accomplish. And so people said to me, while I was writing the book, do you want to be a billionaire? And I said, I don't want to be a billionaire. I said, I want to be me. I want to be the best me possible. And by like kind of plucking out this lesson, this lesson, this lesson, I just materially changed the way I think and behave and has helped me become the best version of me. Now I just turned 60. Hopefully I've got 25 more good years in me. So I'm going to keep growing and hopefully continuing to become the best me possible.

9:08But these lessons have just really changed the way I think. And it's cool to see them firsthand and to learn from them. So it's been, they are different, but I think everyday people are capable of becoming their best as well by learning from these superlative people. Yeah, no, listen, and I feel you, but not only that, I enjoyed reading the book because there was things about some of these people who I know personally that I did not know, and some of the things related to their personal philosophy. So people who I have met not necessarily know well, right? David Rubenstein, know very well. Consider him a friend.

9:47Arthur Levitt, I've met, don't really know. Orlando Bravo has been on my podcast. And we've had several conversations, including one about FTX, where Mr. Bravo was taught by Sam Bankman-Fried's parents, or particularly Joe Bankman, at Stanford. And so we had that connection. Mr. Lou Gerstner, a graduate of Shamanad High School out here on Long Island. I know. John Kasich, I've met through politics. And of course, then there's the legendary Bill Conway, another co-founder of Carlisle. You bring him up and you write about mentality and having the around the hoop mentality. Now, I love that because everybody loves a rebound, don't they, Chris?

10:26And I've had to rebound a few times in my career. But what is it about having an around the hoop or hang around the hoop mentality? Well, Bill is a good friend. And he's one of the best investors in the world. And he's an incredibly generous man. And he had this philosophy he called hang around the hoop. And what it is, is it's a state of mind of openness, readiness, and it's also a kind of a physical stance. And that's why it's called hang around the hoop. So if someone is waiting for a rebound, their knees are bent, their hands are out, their eyes are perky and twitchy, they are ready. They are ready for opportunity to come their way.

11:07But if you're kind of on the back foot and you're checking your phone and then there goes the rebound right past you. And Bill said, if you want to be successful, you have to have this hang around the hoop mentality. And there's this great anecdote in the book where Carlisle was bidding on a company against another big private equity firm, probably a multi-billion dollar deal. We lost out and the team thought they were going to win and they were really disappointed. And they were kind of angry too. But Bill contacted the seller and said, we're disappointed. It was a tough process. We wish you well.

11:43And we look forward to working with you sometime in the future. Total gentlemen. They're really smart. Then the company that beat Carlisle, their financing fell through. So then the seller comes back to Carlisle and says, hey, are you interested in the company still? And Bill Conway says, yeah, I am. And guess what? We're going to have better terms now. But if Bill had been a total jerk about it and said, you know, you promised us that company, you know, we're friends, we earned it and was just a jerk about it, he would have burnt that bridge. And like, I think your listeners might be saying, you know, super wealthy, successful people don't do stupid things like this.

12:21And they do all the time. They really do. It's pretty shocking. I really love the story because it's about seeing through the immediate and taking a long-term approach. And so it doves tail off of another lesson in your book, Enemy Today, Friend Tomorrow. You talk about Arthur Leavitt in the book. He's lit up with this negative newspaper article in Businessweek or this negative article. And rather than putting the reporter in the doghouse, he lets them slide and they ultimately become friends. This, of course, happened with me and General Kelly. John Kelly, the four-star general, fires me in the White House.

12:57We were probably a little sore at each other at the beginning, but we've become very close personal friends and we do speaking engagements now around the world together. I've done seven speaking engagements with John, my wife Karen and my wife Deirdre. The four of us have had dinner together. We've actually become good friends. And of course, we have some more in common than what separates us. And I actually brought up the Mitt Romney's event last year where we were with Senator Manchin and Paul Ryan, et cetera. So that really resonated with me. It's hard for people to do though, Chris. Someone lights you up on Twitter.

13:33He lights you up in the New York Post. They write a nasty story about you. It's sometimes hard for people. They get grudgy, if you will. How do you prevent yourself, Chris, from getting grudgy? I love that word, grudgy. I've never heard it, but I'm going to start using it if you don't mind. I'm like George W. Bush. I'm making up words. You know what I mean? I'm going to attribute it to you because it's a great word. If your listeners are paying close attention. The question you just asked is at the center, is at the core of whether or not these lessons are going to sink in or not. And it has to do with the ego.

14:04And it has to do with taking the ego down a few levels because you have an objective. And I don't want ego or stupid things to get in the way of my objective, but people do it all the time. Now, I don't know if you saw William Cohan wrote in Puck recently that David Solomon, CEO of Goldman Sachs, won't talk to reporters if they write bad stories about him. Now, I don't know if that's true. But if it's true, that's crazy because you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. So in the book, as you know, so Businessweek writes a real, real tough piece on Levitt, accusing him of ethical impropriety, which is about as bad as you can get.

14:47And most people would have shut the reporter down, said, I don't talk to you anymore. My PR people won't even talk to you anymore. Instead, Arthur went on a charm offensive. He gave her scoops. He took her to breakfast. He took her to lunch. Four years later, when he retired from the SEC, Business Week did a cover story on Arthur with this awesome Moses-like photo with his hair back and this great headline that said, The Investor's Advocate. And she co-wrote that article. And then two years after that, she co-wrote his memoir. And so rather than let the ego mess up his objectives, he stayed focused, totally focused.

15:26And it is hard, but people, and so much of managing your ego is about being present and saying to yourself, I'm getting angry. Okay. I understand that. But I have an objective and I understand that. And you have to weigh the two against each other and try to push down the anger and then manage the ego so that you don't get off track. And in all my 37 years in politics and corporate America, I've seen people get off track so many times because the ego rises up and they are not good at managing it. But if you can, And it's not a binary thing either. It's not a binary thing. What you have to do is incrementally understand what riles you up and then be very aware of your objectives and then almost like play them off of each other.

16:20If I get riled up right now, it will deter me from my goals. Rubenstein is particularly good at staying on track. Levitt, very good at staying on track, like super impressed. And it's had this material impact on me. I used to get totally riled up. Now I am as chill as can be. And it's better for my blood pressure. I'm just a happier person. I'm just better at getting crap done. I think it's such a valuable lesson. I just had this really negative article written about me in Bloomberg. I mean, the woman just blasted me. I was like, my God, maybe I dated her in high school or something like that.

16:54I was like trying to figure out why. And then she wanted to come to my conference and my staff wanted to disinvite her. I said, that's absolutely ridiculous. Give her a front row seat. Now, I'm a big believer in the free press. I'm a public figure. Of course, she's allowed to write whatever the hell she wants to write. You know, let's leave it at that. But these are great, great lessons. Let's go to Salah. First off, who is Salah? And what are we learning from him about lessons of gratitude and happiness? Salah is a friend. He is an Ethiopian immigrant. He became an American citizen. I went to his naturalization ceremony.

17:31He's also the parking attendant in the title. He's the parking attendant. You have four billionaires and a parking attendant. So what are we learning from some that are so valuable? Choosing to be happy. And it is a choice. It's like love. True love is not a feeling. It is a choice. You have to choose to love someone, which means sacrifice and the ups and downs and all that. Same thing with choosing to be happy is that to choose to be happy means that you're not letting the little things just drag you down and, again, distract you from your mission. So here I am. So Sala is the parking attendant at Carlyle.

18:08I drive my car in there every day for four years. Sala parks my car for me. And Mr. Chris, how are you? How's your family? How's your weekend? And as most people know, in a parking garage, you know, under a building, it's either really cold in the winter or it's really hot in the summer. And it's always kind of dim or dark. And no matter what, Saul, I was always happy. And I'm just, I'm attracted to happy people because I believe life is short and you must maximize your gifts and appreciate them. And here's this guy, if he was making$35 ,000 a year, that was a lot. And he was happy. And then there's this juxtaposition.

18:44There are a lot of juxtapositions in this book where I'm comparing this and that. So here is the happy guy in the dark, cold, dim basement, and you go up 40 feet in the elevator, and there is literally billionaire, billionaire, billionaire, and all these centimillionaires and all just these uber successful people in this beautiful climate-controlled office. And as Dave Rubenstein likes to say, he doesn't know many happy rich people. And many of them are tortured souls. And you don't know what kind of mood they're going to be in, despite the fact that they have private jets and everyone caters to their wishes.

19:15And I'd say, how is that possible? How is that possible? And it's because Sala chose to be happy. And that really impacted me. And because it is a choice. And that doesn't mean you're happy all the time. We all have ups and downs and different struggles in life. But if you are about to get in a climate controlled office and it's really hot outside, like almost everyone will, the first thing they do when they get in the elevator is complain to someone. Well, it's really hot out. Like, why don't you just shut up? Like, just focus on the fact that you're alive and how blessed you are and the opportunities you have and that you have health care.

19:54But, and I'm sure you've seen studies on this, is that if you win the lottery or you get a raise or a promotion, people adjust to the new circumstance very quickly. And so it raises the baseline. And what I try to do, I actually have a happiness formula. It's called H equals A over E. Happiness equals actual over expected. And if you can manage the E, the denominator, you'll almost always be happy. And that doesn't mean having low standards or expectations. It just means being reasonable. And that, you know, if you win the lottery, like don't go berserk with spending, just be modest. And you're like, always, you'll always be happy.

20:29It's pretty incredible. Well, listen, I, I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood. I think my dad's last pay was about$35 ,000 when he retired in the year 2000. And of course, you know, it took $25 ,000 or$30 ,000 at that time to get through a place like Tufts or Harvard Law School. So, you know, I was hustling to make that happen. He did give me a little bit of money, God bless him. But you learn from that and you learn about managing your expectations. My dad used to have a great line, if you can't afford the price of the ticket, don't go to the movies. And he taught us how to live below our means, you know, and try to be watchful of our money, but also like that, you know, money certainly is important.

21:07I'm not saying it is, it's a great tool, particularly if health care or access to things or some levels of freedom. But it's also a shackle if you start the comparison game. You start comparing yourselves to others. And this is a big mental health crisis that's happening now for our younger people, older people too. But in social media, they're looking at people's filtered lives, Chris, and they don't know themselves. They're living an unfiltered life, but they see this person filtered up and they're like, well, what am I missing? And they start to grow anxious and they get socially insecure and it causes levels of depression.

21:37So the book is very meaningful to me. Also, my father-in-law, who is also now deceased, was a parking attendant. Didn't make much money, 40 years in the Kinney parking system. And I'm going to tell you right now, Christopher Ullman, he was a role model for me. I always tell my wife that because he got it. He got the joke about life. He got the simplicity of it. He also got the temporary nature of it. So he wasn't going to drive himself crazy in that comparative game. He was going to try to find some love and some happiness with his family and his children. And I think the lessons you are telling in this book are extraordinary.

22:12I want to go to one last thing before I get to the end of this podcast, but this was something that really struck me. Humility. Conway and Rubenstein in particular are incredibly successful. You mentioned in the book that there's only probably a thousand or so billionaires. These guys are self-made billionaires, but they're remarkably and incredibly humble. Tell me about that and tell me how you think they got that way. And isn't that a superpower for them in many ways, Chris? I love the way you phrase that, Anthony, is that the superpower. Anyone who knows David and Bill knows that they are warm, genuine, humble people.

22:52And they got that way, I believe, because they're self-made. You know, David grew up very, you know, kind of blue collar-ish. His father was a postman. His mother was a homemaker and worked in a dress shop. And he had to earn his way. He had to earn his scholarships to Duke and to Chicago Law. You know, Bill's family had a little more money, but not much more. But they earned it. So earned success helped them realize what's important. And nothing was handed to them. Now, interestingly, so Bill is a very serious Catholic. So his generosity is very derived from his faith. David is Jewish, but not particularly practicing.

23:37His generosity really derives from his belief in the role he plays in the community. And it's not that different from Bill, but it's slightly different motivations. So they are just remarkably generous. And I mean, I would not work for a boss who just had billions and bought fancy paintings and stuck them in his office. Bill would roam the halls of Carlisle giving out gift cards. Bill would roam the halls of Carlisle giving out$5 and$10 gift cards to Dunkin' Donuts to people and said, I will give you a stack of these if you give them to homeless people in the street. And I still carry them around with me.

24:14And it's been years since I worked there. And so it's incredibly inspiring. And to to be with people. It's like Bill did a deal, I don't know, around two years ago, probably made a couple hundred million and net, that's net after taxes. And I said, Bill, congratulations. And he said, thanks. Now I have to figure out how to give it away effectively. That's his response. It's not, can I buy a bigger yacht? It's how do I give it away? That's his gift. And I share his faith and Bill actually helped me. He had gone through an early part of his life, a divorce. I know his second wife and him are very happily married for many, you know, multiple decades.