Navigating Life's Challenges with Dru Hammer

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1:15Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open Book, where I talk to some of the brightest minds about everything surrounding the written word. That's everything. That's from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Before we dive in, make sure to follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to leave a review. Good or bad, I want to hear from you. I want to hear whether you're enjoying it or where we can improve. And I can take the hits. So let me know. If you don't like something, say it straight. Now let's get into it.

1:57Okay, so joining us now on Open Book is Drew Hammer, an entrepreneur, an evangelist, and an author. And the title of the book is Hammered, which is a double entendre, obviously, because it's about the Hammer family. And I love the title. But, Drew, it's great to have you here. When I was 23, I'll just tell you this. I think you'll enjoy this. Okay. When I was 23, I was working at a law firm in Southampton, New York. and my boss said to me, here's$35. I want you to go to Southampton Books and I want you to buy me and I want you to buy you a copy of Hammer by Armand Hammer. Wow. And I want you to come back and you and I are going to read this book.

2:41It's the month of June. We're going to finish it by July 1 and then you and I are going to have discussion about this legendary entrepreneur, entrepreneur art collector, energy maverick, Arm and Hammer. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, that's a true story. And you may remember that book, of course, right? And that book came out in July of 1987. So I'm sorry, June of 1987. All right, but let's, before we go into your book, which I loved, let's start about your early years, your upbringing, a little bit of your life story, if you don't mind. Okay, I would love it. Well, I'm a small town girl from Tulsa, Oklahoma, and neither one of my parents grew up with any type of religion.

3:26And a group of Christian businessmen led my dad to Jesus, and it completely changed our entire family. My dad went from being raised extremely poor to becoming a workaholic because he did not want to raise his children the way he was raised. Every month thinking, are we going to make it? and he just became totally consumed to the exclusion of his family. And he said this group of Christian businessmen that he met, they had a peace that he did not have. And he wanted that because he kept setting goals, reaching the goals. Never got, I mean, once he got there, he wasn't happy. So he found the Lord.

4:08And so I was raised in a very strong Christian family, But thankfully, it wasn't a religious family. It wasn't about religion. My dad said something to me when I was five years old. He said, Drew, the longest distance in the world is 12 inches. It's moving God from a head knowledge where you think you know him to a down to your heart to a personal relationship. And that really changed my entire life. And then I met Michael Hammer on the airplane. And I'm whisked into this crazy life that I knew nothing about. but because I had my faith, that's what gave me really, truly my stability. And, you know, I have a lot of great stories in there, like the one with James Roosevelt, where it was really life-changing for me, where I realized, because I was very intimidated at first and thought, oh my gosh, I didn't go to an Ivy League school.

5:02I'm a small town girl. I went to Oklahoma State and I two-stepped on the weekends. You know, what am I ever going to have to talk to these people about. And I just talked to him about God. And he ended up really accepting Jesus that night. And he was elderly in a wheelchair. And the Lord spoke to me that night. And he said, Drew, you may not be a blue blood, you may not have gone to an Ivy League school, have some huge career, but you led him to me. And that is more important than anything in the world, because that's eternal. So for people that don't know the family, because I have a lot of young listeners, obviously they know your son, but they don't know Armand Hammer.

5:47They probably don't know who Michael Hammer is. I do. Let's talk a little bit about them. So these are brilliant people. These are brilliant people. Entrepreneurs that made the equivalent of what would be billions of dollars today in today's terms. Right. Big in the energy markets. You're a small town girl. You meet this very ritzy, let's call it ritzy, family. And you have to make an adaptation. So how do you make this adaptation joining this oil tycoon's family? Well, it's actually kind of a funny story, Anthony. So the first time I met Armand, no, actually the second time, excuse me, we flew out for Christmas.

6:29and he was a Russian Jew, but they celebrated Christmas as a holiday. I don't think as a religious practice, but as a holiday. And I remember walking into his home and there were five of us there. And he had a man in a tuxedo playing a grand piano with a huge tub of Russian caviar and Russian vodka that he would bring back from his trips in Russia. And I knew who he was, sort of. We didn't have Google back then. And I knew he started a company called Occidental Petroleum. And funny enough, he actually bought Occidental when he was retiring. And there were three employees and he paid$125 ,000 for the company.

7:13And he had never seen an oil rig before in his entire life, knew nothing about the energy business. And he had his chauffeur, Andy, drive him out to Bakersfield and ask him to show him what an oil rig actually looked like in person and how it worked. So it's just kind of a funny story. And then, of course, Occidental became one of the largest oil and gas companies in the world. But when I met him, I didn't know any of those facts. I just knew that it was a big family and it was so impersonal that first Christmas because my family is like the Norman Rockwell family where we have matching flannel pajamas with our names monogrammed on them.

7:56And I walked in and it was so formal and these, you know, the butler comes in and his tuxedo on Christmas Day and, you know, they serve the Christmas dinner and it was a whole procession with the big silver trays with the silver domes over them. And I'm like, what is going on? And they small talked. They really didn't know each other. And I think one thing a lot of people don't realize is when you accomplish what an arm and hammer accomplishes, you're not home at five o 'clock to have dinner with the family. You're traveling the world. There's always a sacrifice involved. So I felt like the family members really didn't know each other.

8:37And I thought, well, I think that's my part because I grew up in this incredible, loving family that always put God first. So after the Christmas lunch, Armand says to me, Drew, I'd like to speak with you in my office. Well, I honestly don't think I knew enough. I was 23 years old, a year out of college. I don't think I knew enough to even be intimidated by Armand. So I was like, okay. So we walk into his office and I start laughing and he said, what's so funny? And I said, you have a private library in the Dewey Decimal System? I'm like, are you kidding me? so he got a kick out of that and he talked to me and he said I would I'd like to ask you not to work because Michael's my only grandson and you know I'm getting older he was in his I guess mid-80s then and he said I want Michael to travel around I want him to take over the foundation he would never say when I die he would say if I die we always got a kick out of that And so I said to him, I said, well, I would like to ask something of you.

9:49And he goes, well, what would that be? I said, well, I would like you to come over our home anytime you're in town and have Sunday brunch with us. And I would love to teach you how to be a family. And I look back and I'm mortified. I'm like, I could not believe I had the guts to say that to him. But again, I was probably too naive not to think that wouldn't be appropriate. So funny enough, he had gotten older by then and he was home a little more. He wasn't traveling as much. And every single Sunday he was in town, he came to our home and he learned to be a family. And he fell in love with his great grandchildren.

10:33And I have a funny story in the book that he even would come over in his limousine filled with toys. And one time he had a kiddie pool tied to the top of his limousine with ropes going through the car. He just got the biggest kick out of it. You see, the coolest part of your story is the realness. I mean, you're an incredibly down-to-earth person, but you're a great dresser. You know, it's like a weird thing. Like you would like look at you and you wouldn't realize at first blush, given your life experience, who you've interacted with, how down to earth you are. But when you read your book, it's incredibly revealing.

11:16It's very vulnerable, your book. And it's very much so about real life. But I want to start with the highbrow stuff first. And then if you don't mind, I want to go to your divorce because you write about it. And it's very real. And I think it's in some ways, Drew, therapeutic for other people to hear your story. That's my goal right there. And I appreciate that. And I got that from the book. But let's go to the royalty and the world leaders and the business heads first. You share some great anecdotes. Why don't you tell us one or two of those? And then I want to switch over to something that was probably traumatizing for you.

11:55But also the way you share it, I think, is very hopeful for the rest of us. So let's start with the world leaders. Give us a few stories, Drew, if you don't mind. Okay. Well, before I do that really quickly, when you say it's so real, is I believe if you write a book, you have to give the good, the bad, and the ugly. And that's why it took me 10 years. And it was actually a real cathartic exercise, if you will, for me. because as I was writing, I just started out by journaling. And as I was writing, I realized, oh my gosh, I haven't really forgiven. In my mind, I thought I had forgiven, but I really hadn't totally forgiven because sometimes you just want to twist that knife just a little bit.

12:40So that's why I wrote it. And the reason why you talk about humility is I have no reason not to be humble. Everything that God, all the experiences that I've had, I didn't deserve it. I didn't earn it. It's by the grace of God, because I was taught as a child from my father, bloom where you're planted. And the greatest gift I knew that I could bring into that family and everyone I came in contact with is that God loves them. It's very simple. We're created as spiritual beings on this earth. We're physical, mental, and spiritual beings. And I believe you can have everything in the world and not have the spiritual aspect, a relationship with our creator.

13:28And you can be the most unhappy person in the world. So that leads into what you were asking me about the highbrow people. So I even had an amazing several experiences with Princess Di. and Armand was Prince Charles's godfather, if you will, because he was great friends with Lord Mountbatten. And then when he died, Armand and Prince Charles had become very close and they started the United World Colleges together. So there were several events. And when you go to those things and people are paying$50 ,000 a plate or$150 ,000 for the weekend, you're not going to see 30 year olds there for the most part.

14:11It's people who are all obviously successful and established. So we were usually thrown into rooms with a lot of older people. So a lot of times they would put Princess Di and myself together because we were having sons at the same time and we would have something in common. And the first couple of times I met her, it was usually pleasantries and it was surface. And I understand that because she had been betrayed so many times in the press. So you can't push it. She has to instigate it. So we would say, you know, how much we love our sons and how wonderful it is to have two sons, you know, that kind of thing.

14:49But the third time I met her, Armand's spouse had just died, Frances, and she was an amazing woman. And there was a big event in Washington, D.C., and he asked if we would go in his place. And it was a big fundraiser for the opera house there. And Prince Charles and Princess Di were going to be there because part of the portions were going into the United World Colleges. So she walked up to me and she said, hello, Drew. And I remember thinking in my mind, OK, this is the weirdest thing in the world. I'm from Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I'm a small town girl and Princess Di knows who I am. She remembers is my name.

15:27So I was like, wow. But she says to me, she said, I want you to know how sorry I am about Francis. I loved her. We've spent a lot of time together and she was always so wonderful to me. And then she leaned in and she says, by the way, she said, nobody had jewels like Francis. And she leaned in and kind of looked around and she said, did you get the jewels? Well, I start laughing because I'm like, you got to be kidding me. Your princess died and you have a vault of royal jewels. And I said that to her and I go, and you're asking about Francis's and she goes, oh, no one has jewels like her. And I just thought this is my opportunity.

16:06And I said to her, I said, yes, I did. And let me say something to you. I said, when she died, she didn't take any of it with her. Nobody goes to heaven with the U-Haul. What she took with her was her relationship with Jesus. And I said, Princess Di, you have everything in the world. I go, but if you don't have Jesus, you're going to be empty. And I want you to know that he loves you. And then I just kind of dropped it because you can only say so much. And then later on, God called me to write her a letter because she was going through really the traumas of, she was anorexic you know her eating disorders and you know her infidelities with prince charles and i was going through the same thing really i think i was an exercise anorexic and the lord just had me write her a letter well you can imagine how embarrassing it is to go to the post office when you have to get an overseas stamp and you say you know it says princess die and i had her private you know home address on there and i'm sure the postman looks at me and goes you know, like a child sending a letter to Santa Claus or something.

17:22But the whole point was, is the highbrow stories is I really believe that God put me there for a reason because I didn't want anything from anyone. And obviously, I really don't care what people think about me, because I've been destroyed in the press. But oh, well, because I feel like I'm doing what God's called me to do. But so many times, I feel like if you haven't been destroyed in the press, true. I mean, what's the sense of living, right? That's right. We've heard that, right? Yeah, exactly. I've had every possible thing happen to me that you can imagine. It's not that big of a deal. But let's talk about your, you had a difficult divorce after 27 years of marriage and talk about getting through that.

18:04And then also, if you don't mind, the moment that you had in Israel. Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just speaking into the void but with LinkedIn ads you can know you're reaching the right decision makers a network of 130 million of them in fact you can even target buyers by job title, industry, company, seniority, skills and did I say job title? see how you can avoid the void and reach the right buyers with LinkedIn ads spend$250 on your first campaign and get a free$250 credit for the next one get started at linkedin.com slash campaign terms and conditions apply Tuesday on NBC Jimmy Fallon and Bozema St.

18:42John host the highly anticipated new competition show. I hired 10 creatives from all walks of life. They will be battling it out to see who can impress the world's biggest brands. This is a huge opportunity. This is the battle for the next big idea. This is not play play. We're spending millions of dollars. I'm so excited to embark on this adventure with all of you. Make the best idea win! On brand with Jimmy Fallon. Series premiere Tuesday on NBC. Oh, of course. I love that's one of my favorite stories in the world because that's when God showed up. And that's the first time I knew I was going to be OK.

19:17So when I met Michael, we had this whirlwind romance. We met on an airplane. It was literally if anyone could believe in love at first sight, that's what it was. And we were engaged in three weeks. I started talking to him about God and how important that was to me. I brought him home to my dad and my dad prayed with him and he accepted Christ. And, you know, we went to church and had Bible studies from then on. And, you know, I just believed when you walk down the aisle, you don't walk down saying, well, maybe this will work. You know, hopefully this is right. No, I was madly in love with Michael and I believe he was madly in love with me.

20:02He actually had a very abusive childhood and we never dealt with that. So I wish I knew then what I know now. We probably would have been in years of counseling. But there were a lot of infidelities in our marriage that I found out about. And I was truly heartbroken because, you know, my parents had a 67 year magnificent marriage. and I believe that my parents were more in love the day my mother died than the day they walked down the aisle. And that's all I've ever known. So I was just so heartbroken and devastated. I thought, you know, we're going to grow old together. We're going to play with our grandchildren and have those Christmases where you wake up and drink coffee and, you know, the whole thing.

20:48and I was completely, completely devastated. And the crazy thing was, Anthony, is we had a fabulous marriage. He was brilliant, like the hammers. And thank God my son's got that side of the family's brains. I'm just scrappy. And he was funny and we had a blast together. We very seldom argued, But I think he found his self-esteem and affirmation from the attention of other women. And he was extremely good looking, like our son, Armie and Victor, our two sons. And I was really devastated. And I was so devastated that I probably got down to 110 pounds and I'm 5 '8". My hair fell out. I was gray. I was just devastated.

21:40I didn't know what to do with myself. And Kathy Lee Gifford calls me and she said, we're going to Israel and you need to walk where Jesus walked. And I said, great. So when my divorce was finalized, we go to Israel. And when I tell you, I became a Stepford wife. It was like I was a robot just getting through the day, but I completely shut down my emotions. I mean, I'm a little stubborn to be perfectly honest. So I'm like, he is never going to see me cry. I would never give him that satisfaction. And I just became this empty shell, if you will, with no emotion. So the first five days I was there, I was walking around.

22:23I'm walking down the road of Gethsemane that we read in the Bible, and I felt nothing. And the fifth day we were there, we were in Caesarea, where Paul stood trial before King Herod for preaching the gospel. and I look down and I see this rock, this little stone, and it's in a shape of a heart, but it isn't a perfect commercial heart. It literally looked like the heart had been hammered. And I remember thinking that rock is exactly how my heart feels. My heart is so broken and hammered and I picked it up and, you know, I don't know if anybody believes me about this, but this is exactly what happened.

23:06All of a sudden, this warmth came down me. I felt like the Lord had poured warm olive oil down my body. And for the first time, the Lord's not the first time he spoke to me, but for the first time I was warm. And I'm holding this stone in my hand and the Holy Spirit spoke to me. And he said, I'm going to take your heart of stone and turn it to flesh and I'm going to heal your heart. And I began weeping. It was like the emotional floodgates were opened. And from that moment, I thought, I'm going to be okay. I didn't know if I was going to be okay. I was so heartbroken. Oh, look, it's a beautiful story.

23:51Obviously, I don't beat my religious drum that often, but I was raised Catholic, Roman Catholic. I've been to Jerusalem on many occasions and I have a tremendous amount of faith. And so I wanted you to share the story. Let's talk about your son for a second. Okay. This is a very impressive young man, Armie Hammer. As you said, an incredibly good looking guy, a movie star. Okay. You say in your book that he was morally wrong, but he wasn't a criminal. Sometimes people get into trouble. You're a mom. You also believe in redemption and forgiveness, which I think is one of the hallmarks of our civilization.

24:33I'm not really sure how we exist as people. We don't have an opportunity for redemption and forgiveness. And so let's talk a little bit about him for a second and some of your thoughts there that you put in the book. Well, I actually originally did not want to put that in my book because I just felt like it was his story to share and not mine. And one thing I will say, he's a bigger person than I am, because when all of this was going on, I knew what was really going on in the background. I mean, these women stayed in my home and they were puppy dogs around my son. And I knew that there was no rape going on there.

25:11Trust me. But anyways, I finally called him one day and I was like, OK, if you're not going to talk about it in the press, I've been getting a zillion requests from Vanity Fair to you name it. I go, can I? And he's like, no, mom, we're not going to talk about it. The truth always comes out. So I wasn't going to approach it in my book. But my editor, who made sure I didn't have any grammatical errors, which I'm sure I had a bunch of them, he called me one day and he said, Drew, if Army was your nephew, if he was a distant cousin, you don't have to deal with it he's your son and you can't pretend like this didn't happen this is the white elephant in the room and if you're going to write a book you have to discuss this because this has been the last four years of your life and it's your family and I really prayed about it so what I did is I wrote that chapter on everything that happened during cancer culture Not everything, of course, because I want to protect some people involved.

26:17But I wrote about it and I sent Army and Victor a copy because Victor was going through his own trials with, that's another whole long story, but Michael's, the woman that he married for the last five years of his life, you know, there's been a lot of changes in wills, if you will. I won't go into details, but I had to face these things. So I wrote the chapter and I sent it to my sons first. And I said, you will always be a priority over any book or anything I ever do. So if there's anything in there that you would like taken out, I'll take it out because you're more important to me than this.

27:02And Army read it and wrote me back immediately. And he said, Mom, I'm so proud of you. I think you handled it with integrity. He said, I wouldn't change one word. And then my other son said, you know, you're right on everything you wrote about, but because we are in legal issues, we have to take a few of these things out because we have not settled. But, and I said, great, we'll take them out. So, you know, it was something I had to deal with. And this was probably, I also had to deal with Army's molestation at 14 because I feel like that was my biggest failure as a mother. And again, if I knew then what I know now, I didn't know that a youth pastor would groom the parents and look you in the eyes and go to dinner with you and go on family vacations with you while they could ever be doing that behind your back.

27:59I was very naive about it. I'm first to say, because growing up in my little Pentecostal background, I was never exposed to it. And by the way, maybe it did happen, but it was swept under the carpet. So I'm grateful that today it is coming out so it can be dealt with. But at the time also, I didn't realize that children would blame themselves. So Army said to Michael and me, look, you know, I'm not going to youth group anymore. you know, he's being inappropriate, but nothing happened because he felt it was his fault. And I think that was really stemmed a lot of the problems and issues that he had as an adult because he had never dealt with it.

28:47Because in our minds, we didn't think anything really happened. And we probably should have been way more proactive because like Army said to us, but mom, Even if a youth pastor, someone in an authority in church and, you know, pretending to be this big Christian and ministering to all these kids, even if they attempt something, it really screws up a child. And I said, you're right. I did not even think about that. So that was one of my biggest failures. But I had to deal with that as well. Because again, if you're going to write a book, be honest. And hopefully people can learn from your mistakes.

29:26And they can learn from how faithful God was to me. Because the last thing I want to do is write a book that preaches to people. And, you know, is in their face. I just wanted to kind of show the world that it starts with forgiveness. Because if you don't forgive, it will destroy your life. and then God can start healing you and how faithful God is when we hit rock bottom and when our hearts are hammered. You know, listen, it's a beautiful story and I let you go. I didn't want to interrupt you for one second because I think your message is a riveting message and I wanted to make sure that I gave you the time to speak about it.