Secrets of JFK’s Assassination with Brad Meltzer

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1:23Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci and this is Open Book, where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know, I can roll with the punches, so let me know.

1:58Anyways, let's get to it.

2:06Today, we're diving into history, leadership, and untold stories with the great Brad Meltzer. Brad's new book, The JFK Conspiracy, uncovers a little-known plot by Richard Pavlik to assassinate JFK, a chilling event that has been buried by history until now. Brad explores the role Jackie Kennedy played in crafting JFK's legacy, offers fresh perspectives on the nature of the presidential threats, reflects on his own connections with several former U.S. presidents, and so much more. Let's get into it.

2:49Joining us now on Open Book is Brad Meltzer. He's a number one New York Times bestselling author, so many different great books, but the latest book, The JFK Conspiracy, The Secret Plot to kill Kennedy and the greatest tagline ever and why it failed. Of course, we know Kennedy is killed by an assassin's bullet, but this is a totally different plot. And first of all, it's an honor to have you on. So thank you for joining us. But before we get into it, tell us about Brad Meltzer. How did you become a writer? Why'd you become a writer? Yeah, I, first of all, and thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

3:23And, uh, and we've been talking off air how much I appreciate from Muhammad Ali to Superman, all our same heroes. But I started, you know, I was the first in my immediate family to go to a four-year college. I never thought I'd be a writer. And when I graduated college, a job I went to work at just didn't pan out. The guy who was running it wound up leaving the job. He was going to be my mentor. And I thought I wrecked my life. And so I did what everyone would do. Anthony, what I know you would do in a moment where you think you wrecked your life, I said, I'm going to write a novel. And I didn't know what I was doing, but I just thought everyone has one story in them.

3:56So I wrote my first novel. My first novel got me 24 rejection letters. There were only 20 publishers at the time, and I got 24 rejection letters, which means some people were writing me twice to make sure I got the point. But I fell in love with the process. And I said, if they don't like that book, I'm going to write another. And if they don't like that book, I'm writing another. And the week after I got my 23rd and 24th rejection letter, I started my second book, and that was the one that sold. And so I'll be the first to get lucky. You got some big fans, though. You got some presidents that are fans, right?

4:23I mean, I think if I remember correctly, you got George Herbert Walker Bush. Bush won as a big fan of yours. You've spoken at his library. I think he handed you the secret letter that he left for Bill Clinton. He did. Am I right about all this or did I get this? Yeah, he did. He gave it to me. You know, in fact, so yeah, Bush 41, 43, I know well. Clinton himself, listen, I'm so thankful I've gotten to, you know, I've met every president since 41 up. but 41 and I had a really amazing relationship in fact what I couldn't even tell this story until a few years ago but when he was um when he was dying what no one knew and we couldn't say at the time was they were bringing his favorite writers to come in and read to him on basically his deathbed and I got the call and I was in Kennebunkport Maine I went down there and uh to the compound and my wife and I are there secret service say to me listen Brad he's sleeping a lot right now he's going to fall asleep five minutes in because he's sleeping most of the day at this point.

5:23So just read to him for five minutes, 10 minutes and say goodbye. I said, you got it. Honored to be here. Secret Service leave. It's just myself, my wife, President Bush and his service dog, Sully. And I can see he has a stack of books on his desk. And one of them is my book, The First Conspiracy, a nonfiction book about a secret plot to kill George Washington. And he and President Clinton have both given me really beautiful blurbs and they had early copies of it. But this one looks like it's been read. I can't tell you how many times it's dog-eared. And I say, sir, you want to read this one? He goes, mm-hmm, because he can't speak anymore.

5:51He just says, mm-hmm, or uh-uh. And sure enough, I start reading, and five minutes in, he falls asleep. And I'm like, I'm just going to finish this chapter. And the chapter I brought to read him was the moment where George Washington, for the very first time, has the Declaration of Independence read to his troops for the first time. And so I get to those words, Anthony, those words we all know. We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal. And in that moment, President Bush's eyes pop open and he's just locked on me wide awake. And I get to the end of the chapter. I'm like, you want to read another chapter, sir?

6:24He goes, mm-hmm. I get to the end of that one. You want to read another, sir? Mm-hmm. And another, mm-hmm. And instead of being there for five or 10 minutes, I'm there for an hour. I say goodbye to him. I know I'm never going to see him again. And, you know, it was one of the most humbling moments of my life to read about the very first president who at that point, who was the oldest living president of these United States. So I still don't know how I've been lucky enough to kind of stumble into things like that. Well, I'm glad you told us. I did not know that story. I knew the story about your closeness to the president.

6:51And I'm honored that you told that story on my podcast. Thank you. I want to go to an abrupt transition, though. So somebody that's a little bit more sinister. Bush won. I've had the chance to meet with him. Of course, I work for Bush too. And I thought he was one of the greatest living Americans, so many different ways, World War II decorated and so forth. And it was sad when he passed. Richard Pavlik. Who is Richard Pavlik? And why is he overlooked by history other than by Brad Meltzer, frankly? I did not know until I opened your book and started it. I didn't know who he was. Yeah, it's a crazy story, right?

7:28So this is the book I wrote the new nonfiction book called the JFK conspiracy about a secret plot to kill Kennedy that really happened at the start of his presidency. We all know the one from Lee Harvey Oswald that eventually kills him, but there was a plot in 1960, just after Kennedy's elected in December, he goes down this assassin named Richard Pavlik is a disgruntled postal worker. And he puts seven sticks of dynamite in his car. He goes to and follows Kennedy to Palm Beach, Florida because he thinks that Kennedy's secret service protection is less there, which he's right about. And he knows every day, every Sunday that Kennedy goes to a 10 a.m.

8:05church service. And so he sits outside his place right before 10 a.m. Sure enough, JFK is right on time. JFK comes out to his car. All Pavlik has to do, this assassin has to do, is hit the gas on the car, hit the little trigger mechanism he's built, and truly, Anthony, boom, we'll go the dynamite. And I won't ruin the ending. I think I just ruined chapter one of the JFK conspiracy, but that's chapter one. But what saves his life in that moment, what saves JFK is one of the most crazy JFK stories you've never heard in your life. And it all really happened. And the reason you don't know the story, because I was like, how does no one know this story?

8:37It was a huge story in Florida where it happened. It was about to go nationwide. And the day it was going to go nationwide, there were two airplanes that crashed over New York City. And when they crashed, everyone died on board, both planes, except for one boy. This one young boy is a sole survivor. And America becomes obsessed with this kid and all the attention swerves to this kid. And so Richard Pavlik's story with JFK and trying to kill him becomes a footnote to history until Josh Mention and my co-writer decide to write the JFK conspiracy. And then obviously we started telling the full story about it.

9:10It's interesting. You know, Farrah Fawcett died on the same day as Michael Jackson. And of course, we remember her fondly, but it was her death was eclipsed by his. And this stuff happens. It's right. It's a media Bigfoot, as we say, right? But talk about the First Lady for a second, because you guys write beautifully about the First Lady, you and Josh. Take us through her influence. What surprised you most about Jacqueline Bouvier, a fellow Long Islander of mine, Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy? Yeah, she is. So here's the thing is we've turned the Kennedys, we know them as like the perfect husband, the perfect wife, the perfect hair, the perfect teeth.

9:51that, you know, she's got perfect style and they got the compounds and, you know, it's, and it's a cliche. We turn them into a cliche and they're far more complex than that. And what stole the show in, when we were writing the JFK conspiracy, what stole the show was Jackie Kennedy. And I didn't know much about her. Again, I just knew her as like the, you know, the most beautiful first lady who has the, redoes the white house and just has all the charm and everyone loves her. And she's so amazing. And what, what, because you see what she has to go through because JFK, you know, we start the book with his World War II heroics.

10:21He's this amazing war hero, you know, hits a PT-109, a Japanese destroyer, like blows his boat to bits. And he puts an unconscious one, a member of his, you know, one of the other sailors on his back, swims for miles with this unconscious guy in his back. And JFK's awesome, amazing hero. In fact, when he gets his honors and gets honored as a hero, he can leave World War II. And his father's like, you're done, son, let's take it home. You won, you survived, let's go. And JFK is like, no, I'm not done. I'm not taking, I'm not having my dad make an excuse for me. I'm going to go and actually fight and do more good.

10:55And so you're like, this guy's the greatest guy in the world. And then he marries Jackie. And when they're engaged, one of JFK's close friends goes up to Jackie and says, you know, Jack likes women, loves, and basically says to Jackie's face, he's going to sleep around on you. And I won't ruin it. You'll see all the affairs that we talk about in the book, but Jackie has to deal with this guy who, you know, is JFK the greatest, you know, amazing war hero who gives us idealism and takes us to the moon? Or is he this terribly reckless husband who, when she, you know, she gives birth, he's not there.

11:28She hemorrhages, he's not there. She's dealing with the christening and all this stuff by herself, has to go to the White House by herself. Is he good? Is he bad? Is he a little bit like all of us, you know, a little bit of both? And Jackie is the one who just struck me as she's the one holding the ship together. I mean, it's beautifully written. And also she's she also protects him. You know, honestly, she protects some of the philandery by presenting herself and her family as something that they're not, which is, you know. Not only that. No, you're exactly right. One. In fact, the greatest thing she does to protect him is, you know, we start the book, obviously, and the whole book is about the secret plot to kill JFK that you've never heard of.

12:08but we end the book with the real actual assassination of JFK. You get to see it, but you see it from Jackie's perspective. Was that a lone gunman that killed JFK? Depends who you want to talk to. Let's talk about that in the next question, because we should talk about that. So we do the whole ending, we do the whole finale of, you see it from Jackie's perspective. And I kept, when I was researching the book, I'm like, where's Camelot? When does Camelot enter the picture here? Everyone associates Camelot with JFK and the Kennedy administration. And what I finally realized and figured out is it doesn't enter while he's alive, it's after he dies.

12:39When his brains get splattered all over his wife's beautiful purple dress, it's a disaster. Obviously, it affects the whole country. And everyone wants an interview with Jackie. And she's not granted an interview with anyone. And she finally says to Life Magazine, I'll give you one interview for their special JFK death issue. And this reporter comes to her house late at night. Reporter shows up at like eight o 'clock is there till after midnight. She's rewriting the reporting with him. And she tells a story, exclusive story to him, that when JFK was in pain, when his back was bothering him, he would sit up in the White House.

13:13And when he couldn't fall asleep, Jackie was the one who would go and put this record on, the one record that she knew brought him peace, this song, this play about a place called Camelot. And Jackie, at the start of her career, was a reporter. She used to ask questions on the street. So she was a member of the press. She was hounded by the press. She was mortified by the press. She was chased by the press. But make no mistake, Anthony, she was a master of the press. And she's the one who inserts the word Camelot into the lexicon. And that's why we think about it today. It is a conscious choice by heart to rewrite immediately the legacy and make sure that legacy is the way she wants it rather than anyone else having a say in it.

13:53And it's incredible what she does. Tuesday on NBC, Jimmy Fallon and Bozema St. John host the highly anticipated new competition show. I hired 10 creatives from all walks of life. They will be battling it out to see who can impress the world's biggest brands. This is a huge opportunity. This is the battle for the next big idea. This is not play play. We're spending millions of dollars. I'm so excited to embark on this adventure with all of you. Make the best idea win! On brand with Jimmy Fallon. Series premiere Tuesday on NBC. Hey, business owners. We know you know the importance of maximizing every dollar.

14:30With the Delta SkyMiles Reserve Business American Express card, you can make your expenses work just as hard as you. From afternoon coffee runs to stocking office supplies and even team dinners, you can earn miles on all your business expenses. Plus, you can earn 125 ,000 bonus miles for a limited time through October 29th. The Delta SkyMiles Reserve Business card. If you travel, you know. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply. Offer ends October 29th, 2025. this is uh the very famous writer theodore white who wrote the book the making of the president in 1960 he interviews mrs kennedy after the assassination she falls into the arms of aristotle onassis a couple of years later because she's looking for protection she's looking for help because of the limelight that she's in and the threats to her family uh it's quite it's quite a compelling story was he killed by harvey oswald yeah so let's talk about that so here here's my take, so I, you know, I, I know the guy who's read every single page that's been released from the archives.

15:29Uh, I sit on the board of the national archives. I'm proud to say, and, and, you know, it is amazing to look at it. And, and the sad truth is anyone who tells you what happened doesn't know because Jack Ruby pulled the trigger on Lee Harvey Oswald. And the moment Jack Ruby did that, he denied us the answer, you know, and there's a, there's a lot of misinformation out there. You know, there's a, I remember I was obsessed with the case because people would tell me. I saw in the JFK movie, Oliver Stone's movie, he'd say, no one since that day, they've tried to recreate Lee Harvey Oswald's shot from the book, The Positive.

15:59No one do you know has been able to recreate it. And I was like, oh my gosh, no one can create that shot. It must've been someone else. It's a one in a million shot, except that's not true. That shot's been recreated dozens of times by Marines. In fact, good Marine sharpshooters have to shoot from that distance regularly. And why did Oliver Stone do that? He said, I purposely, he said he purposely put misinformation in his movie about JFK to offset the misinformation that he used to see in the Warren Commission. So my answer is, don't get your history from Hollywood movies. As for what I think killed JFK, you want to hear my theory?

16:31So if you look in the 60s, who we thought killed JFK, it was the height of the Cold War. So our great enemies at the time, it must have been the Russians, it must have been the Cubans. If you look in the 70s, as Watergate breaks, mistrust for the government reaches all-time highs because of Richard Nixon. Guess who we start blaming the Kennedy assassination on? We say it's an inside job. The government did it themselves. The CIA did it. LBJ did it. In the 80s, the Godfather movies peak. Guess who killed JFK? It was the mob. So decade by decade, if you want to know who killed JFK, it's whoever America's most afraid of at that moment in time.

17:06And JFK has always been that to us. It's always been a mirror, as all conspiracies are, that show us what we're most afraid of. So I know Lee Harvey Oswald took that shot? Do I know whether it was funded or what he was doing in Russia all those years before during the Cold War? Those answers are lost to us and the ones I'm still chasing. But you think he shot him? I know he shot him. Oh, he shot him. No, he definitely shot him. The only question is, is he being funded by someone else? Is he put up to him? But Lee Harvey Oswald took that shot. So when you look at the Zapata film and the shot looks like it's coming this way, you think it came in this way?

17:36I mean, you know, when I talk to the Secret Service about it and And anyone who knows about ballistics, when a bullet hit into your body, it's magic. It really is. Same thing with knives, knife wounds. Like why does some person get stabbed and it hits all their organs and another guy gets stabbed in the same exact spot, it's nothing. So, you know, trying to look at the end result as opposed to where anyone else was or where's the footage. And the one thing I know for sure, this is the one thing I know for sure, people can't keep secrets. They can't keep their mouth shut. Deep throat, the greatest secret, living, walking around, right?

18:07The guy who ratted out Richard Nixon, who spoke to Woodward and Bernstein, they were going to take that secret to their grave and no one can tell them until Deep Throat is dead. You can't say a word to anyone. Ben Bradley at the Watch Post, no one will say anything. And guess who let it out? Deep Throat himself, Mark Felt, because he was like, I'm going to die and I'm about to die and I don't want to go to my deathbed with this secret. And all these years, all this time, you're telling me everyone kept this secret? That's the thing. That's the hardest part about it. So are we going to get the answer?

18:37Not from files, not from anything else. And sadly, when Lee Harvey Oswald went down, so many answers went with him. But I will tell you this. Here's the one thing that is important. And we should discuss this. When I was researching the JFK conspiracy, I spoke to, and even before that, I spoke to the Secret Service about people who kill the president. And they're actually divided into two groups. And I looked at them, they study them. They don't just like take it one by one. They've studied what this kind of person is. You're a mind reader because I was getting to howlers and hunters. Yeah, let's talk about it.

19:07Let's talk about howlers and hunters. You're a mind reader. And that's what they divide them into. The Secret Service says there are two types of people who try to kill the president. There's howlers and there's hunters. And a howler makes a lot of noise. Says, I'm going to kill that guy. I hate that guy. I'm going after him. They're big mouths. But they rarely are the ones who take action. But a hunter is very different. And a hunter is someone who doesn't say a single word. The hunter doesn't say a word to anybody. They're the ones who tend to pull the trigger. And if you look through history, if you look from Abraham Lincoln to the four men who have successfully killed the president, from Abraham Lincoln to JFK, all four of them are hunters.

19:43And, you know, when you see, you know, one of the things we talk about in the book is it's just how much venom. And I know it's titillating for me to come on here and say, hey, let's talk about a secret plot we found to kill JFK no one knows about. But the reason we write this book is not just to tell you the old story, but why does it matter today? And when you look at the 1960 election, it's a time when America, you know, we're bitterly divided between, you know, if you're a Kennedy person or you're a Nixon person, it's the closest election in modern history at the time. Whatever side you're on, you think the other side are horrible, awful people.

20:16Does that sound familiar to Anthony, right? I mean, it's just exactly where we are now. And when you drudge up that much venom, when you drudge up that much hatred, you can't be surprised when someone gets activated. And in JFK's case, it's this guy, Richard Pavlik, who gets activated and says, you know what, I got to go after this guy. He's a threat to our country. He's a threat. And we got to take him out. And it's no surprise to me what you see, what you're seeing with President Trump, the fact that we've seen these two attempts. It's the same thing. It's that same person who thinks that they have to, quote unquote, save the country.

20:46And I sadly, whoever was elected, I sadly think you are going to see even more of them. It's just where we are as a culture. It's a terrible part of our culture right now. So you met President Trump as well. Of course. Yeah. My, yeah, I know my, uh, my wife worked for his sister. Okay. And, uh, there was an interesting dialogue today with president Trump and Barack Obama, president Obama. I saw that. So, uh, it's interesting, right? These guys can go after each other politically, but at the end of the day, there's a common bond that they're all in a very exclusive club react to that. Yeah. You know, when I, when I, I did a book years ago on what it's like to be an ex president, I was obsessed with it.

21:24Cause I got a letter one day that I got a letter one day from President Bush. I got another one from President Clinton telling me they like my books. And I was like, are these, you know, President Bush, who I respect so much, I'm like, is he so bored that he's just writing to me? What's he doing with this time? You know, and I was thinking like, you're the most strongest, powerful man on the entire planet one day. And the next day, you got to stop at red lights like the rest of us. That plays with your head. It gets in your head. And I said to President Bush, can I come see what your life is like?

21:52And I said the same thing to president clinton when he left office i said can i see what your life is like and when you go to president clinton's office you know every president has like their their their wall of things right we all have our walls behind us of the things that are meaningful to me whether it's muhammad ali or superman or lightsabers or comic books whatever it is and do you know the one picture that is in more of their offices than anything else they'll have a picture of their kids and whatever but they don't need to impress anybody anymore all five presidents together that's the only picture that's the picture that's in clinton's office is the five of them when they were together, it's still the ultimate club.