The Coach Everyone Called a Failure (He Proved Them Wrong) - Monte Burke

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1:11Match days deserve Pepsi. Pete Carroll. Unconventional and ahead of his time. Using psychology, using Far Eastern mysticism and all kinds of, all these inputs, and he kind of turned what used to be sort of a pejorative, which was a player's coach. He kind of turned that on his head a little bit. I think he was way ahead of his time. I think, unfortunately, he had the historical accident of being kind of around the same time as Nick Saban, who's probably the best college football coach of all time, and Bill Belichick, who's probably the best pro coach of all time. And here you have, where do you put Carroll?

1:39It's a little bit unfortunate that he came around at the same time. He won't get his due, but I think he's a very influential coach in the game of football. Welcome to Open Book. I am your host, Anthony Scaramucci. Joining us today is Monty Burke. And what a book this is. And no, it's not about the Iliad. the title of the book is men of troy the epic afternoons wild nights and enduring legacy of carol p carol's u.s trojans and my god you know i was living this with you mondia and i watched a lot of these games and of course you never know the the backstory behind all of this stuff but what a what a great book this should be a movie i guess i would really i want to find out if you're making a movie about this.

2:24And you've written about big personalities, of course, before big systems. What drew you to Pete Carroll and USC in this decade effectively? I just think, I mean, I love football in general, but I think this is one of the most, this sort of a singular era in football. You know, you had this downtrodden coach, weird coach doing things in a different way. We'd been fired twice in the NFL, taking over a program that once proud and hadn't been good in like two decades. And, you know, there's this great build. And then all of a sudden they're winning two championships in a row and playing Texas in what's considered to be the greatest game of all time.

3:0234 straight wins. And then, of course, there's the scandal that kind of ends it all. So it had this sort of natural, nice little natural arc. And then, you know, what was cool about it is, you know, I always think of college football as being sort of a sport of the small to medium towns. You think of like Tuscaloosa and State College and stuff like that. USC is different. They were in Los Angeles. And during this time period, there were no NFL teams there as well. So they really captured something in LA. And they had people like Arnold and the Fonz and Will Ferrell and Snoop Dogg, not just coming to games.

3:36They were going to practice too. They were sort of part of the team. So it had this sort of feel that it never happened before. I don't think it will ever happen again. And, you know, all orchestrated by this oddball of a coach who did things completely differently than anyone really before him. Yeah, he's such an interesting guy. And I do have, you know, and we'll talk about some of the good and the bad here in a second. But I have a lot of respect for him. But before we get to him, I want to talk about the ethos of the NFL and the ethos of college football. Nick Saban goes to the Dolphins. He's in the NFL.

4:10Doesn't do great. He becomes one of the most successful college football coaches ever, okay, at Alabama. Pete Carroll's had success in both. By the way, he's gotten teams to the Super Bowl. He's gotten teams to the national championship. So what is the difference in the ethos, if you don't mind, before we delve into the book? And what do you think makes somebody successful in one and potentially not the other? I think especially before this era, so back when Pete Carroll was in college and when Nick Saban was coaching in college, there was an element of control. Uh, they could control, you know, Nick Saban had always had a famous quote.

4:44So in the NFL, I got one first round draft pick, uh, in college, I can recruit 10 first rounders. So they had control over kind of recruiting that control over, uh, you know, a college football coach doesn't have a GM over them, doesn't have an owner over them. They are the boss of the whole program. And, you know, you have younger kind of more impressionable people. I mean, one of the things that was interesting is that Pete Carroll started as a head coach in the NFL and he got his loosey goosey kind of style. Didn't work with the jets. He got fired, didn't work with the patriots he got fired there he goes to usc where he's got work with the jets monty burke i just want to point that out nothing works with the jets okay okay i'm saying that as i had a whole jeff fan you know sorry didn't mean to interrupt you that's okay i had a whole section that was cut out i had all the jets foibles and they they cut it out their first space but um but anyway so he was an editor probably didn't want to you want to live the pain like the rest probably probably uh so especially when carol and saban were kind of in this era they had these 18 to 20 21 year old kids that were that were captive then i mean you couldn't just you know if you left you had to sit out a year so you had them three or four years they were younger more impressionable um so i just think you know for people like nick saban and pete carol uh at that time it really worked out of course carol went on to the usd was kind of like a proving ground for him.

6:04Could his style, his different style work? In fact, it did. And then he went on to the Seahawks and it worked there as well. So, you know, Marty Carroll is a flake. He's a fraud. Okay. He's a failure. I mean, this is what you're saying in the book. I mean, this is the dismissiveness of lots of people at USC, the alumni, the failings at the Jets. Okay. and how does he build belief in a room full of skeptics? The biggest way is through winning, right? I mean, winning kind of cures all. I mean, that is your best. I mean, just got to let you know that. Like, not that I'm your interview coach, but every goddamn time you have an interview, you got to say, this MF knows how to win, okay?

6:48I mean, because that's it. That's the Wall Street line. It's totally true. How does he do that, though, Monty? Because that's hard to do, Monty. So how does he do it? It is. So, you know, he doesn't win right away, actually. They start off like one and five, two and five, something like that. And everyone is just kind of pulling out their hair. And, you know, he just starts to build this culture. It's a culture of fun. You know, it's a culture where he, you know, kind of cares about every individual player. It's not like he's a militaristic guy like Belichick and Saban, like he's, you know, and he pulls pranks.

7:18So there's this kind of attitude of fun, but also really competitive. And he has these two players who were left over from the previous regime. who kind of really pick up the mantle. They were sick of losing too. And those two players were Carson Palmer and Troy Palomalu. And they really helped get the ball rolling. And when USC hired him, you know, what were they thinking? Shit, we don't have so much to lose. We're going to throw the Hail Mary with this guy, right? I mean, more or less, right? Yep, yep. So USC, you know, is sort of desperate when they hire him. Almost as desperate as he is. And actually, I feel like the marriage of two desperate entities can work out sometimes.

7:54I mean, Carroll had been fired twice. He'd been out of football for a year. USC hadn't been good for two decades. He's the third or fourth candidate, depending on who you ask. So he's not really like a desired man. And then he starts off terribly. You know, he starts off like one and five, two and five, something like that. And people are starting to pull their hair out. But then, you know, he starts to build trust with his players. He's not some militaristic guy who's beating him over the head like Nick Saban or Bill Belichick. and you know next thing you know they start winning games uh that first season they kind of rescue the season they go to a second tier bowl game but at least they get to a bowl game and then they build up from there and he he really got buy-in from he was smart he really concentrated on the leaders of that team who were leftovers from the previous uh administration uh those two players are Troy Polamalu and Carson Palmer um and then things just start snowballing I mean, next thing you know, he's hired great coaches.

8:48He's so desperate that he goes out and he has no ego. He hires the best coaches out there, Lane Kiffin, Steve Sarkeesian, Ed Orgeron, Norm Chow, just an all-star roster. Assistant coaches, they recruit really well. Next thing you know, he's got Reggie Bush, Lendale White, Matt Lyon, and they win two titles in a row. They win three, four games in a row. They probably should have won. They came within six inches of winning three in a row, which is unprecedented. It never happened before in the modern era of college football. So, you know, he really got like full buy-in and it was fun. I mean, it's amazing how many people I interviewed, players and coaches, who just said, you know, Carol made it feel like I was 12 years old playing shirts and skins, touch football in my backyard, which is amazing.

9:31If you can make something fun, you get a lot of productivity out of people, I feel like. Thank you for tuning in to Open Book. Okay, if you haven't already, please hit the subscribe button below so that you're the first to know when our new episodes drop each week. We've got a lot more coming. And now back to the show. You know, New York, and I mean, when I say New York, I mean the city of New York. We really don't have a Division I football team. We don't have the University of New York, and it's a New York City. Yep. This is really, you know, Southern California. this is nightlife, celebrity, culture, paparazzi, right?

10:08These guys become like iconic figures of that moment in the early 2000s. So describe that tension and describe how you're still winning. A lot of guys can't handle that. You know, how does he get these guys comfortable? They're young men and he's their coach and mentor. How does he get them comfortable with that environment and also winning? Right. So he actually embraces it. So it's really interesting. I mentioned earlier about the celebrities becoming kind of a part of the program. I mean, Snoop and Will Ferrell, kind of like they went to practice. They actually practice sometimes with these guys.

10:43I mean, there's a great anecdote in there. Well, I'll tell you that in a minute, but you have players like Reggie Bush, particularly Matt Leinart, who are as famous, if not more famous in Leinart's case than some of the celebrities who are coming to watch them. One of my favorite anecdotes of the book is after practice one day, Will Ferrell says, hey matt liner let's go have lunch and they're sitting down to have lunch and a usc student walks up and he asked for matt liner's autograph and this is will ferrell right coming off old school like he is as popular as he ever has been so you know carol carol liked all that uh he likes the pressure of the celebrities coming to practice and watching the guys he didn't mind that his guys went out i mean there's another funny story but i mean these guys had carte blanche in in la they They go to the best clubs, the best restaurants.

11:27There's some hot club, and they've got 15 guys walk up from the USC team, and the owner comes out and waves them in. And behind the red velvet line are a bunch of guys who are angry that these kids are being left in. A bunch of guys happen to be members of the San Diego Chargers. So, I mean, these guys just ran this place, right? But Carroll loved it. He always thought that if you could perform in practice in front of Arnold Schwarzenegger and Will Ferrell and Snoop Dogg, then we get the orange bowl or you playing the rose bowl. It's going to be no big deal. So he really tried to harness it. Uh, and he was, you know, he tried to be careful, uh, to a certain degree, this energy, this vibe he created kind of led to the downfall a little bit, but boy, they wrote it, you know, for four or five years and it really worked out.

12:13There's a, there's a huge business lesson in this book, you know, and I, because it's like you go with the culture around you, you get dropped into a place. Let's say we're dropped into Abu Dhabi. Well, there's a custom and norm, and you've got to figure out a way to work in that environment versus New York versus LA. I think what's fascinating about Carroll, I mean, he does the same thing in Seattle, right? So he figures out the environment, he embraces the environment, and he's rocking and rolling. I want to go to the scandal because I find the scandal, again, this is my opinion. I'm going to inject it into the thing.

12:48It is my podcast. I'm going to take some editorial discretion and find the scandal to be hypocritical. So tell our viewers and listeners about the scandal and tell us where they got pinched, if you will, and tell us where the NCAA is today and about the hypocrisy of the whole thing. So, I mean, I kind of agree with that. I try not to editorialize. I try just to lay, I feel like my job is to lay out the facts and let people kind of, you know, make their own judgments. But basically what happened was, you know, Reggie Bush, his stepfather and two sort of unsavory characters came together during Reggie's sophomore year and towards the end of it and decided that they wanted to create like a marketing company based on Reggie Bush.

13:28And they signed, they basically signed up Reggie Bush and they started giving him a lot of money. And the hypocrisy comes in here is that Reggie Bush at that time was the most electric player in college football. He's one of the most electric players who's ever played college football. He, with what he's doing on the field, is making the university gobs of money, the NCAA gobs of money, all of their television partners gobs of money. And guess what? He can't make anything more than his$800 stike in a month, right? Which is just absolutely insane. By the way, Monty, he made Kim K more famous. Okay.

14:04How about that? Okay. You know, Matt Lyard, he's getting an autograph. He made Kim K more famous. How is that even possible? It's just crazy. So anyway, this is, you know, Reggie kind of starts double dealing at one point and has another agent that he's also receiving money from. By the way, they're paying him not to stay. So it wasn't a pay to play, quote unquote. It was a pay to go kind of deal. So, you know, this NCAA gets wind of this. You had a long time where other schools in the NCAA were jealous of what USC had, because we talked about that kind of culture of celebrity when a recruit would go out.

14:43Imagine an 18 year old kid and you go and you're on your visit and Snoop Dogg taps you on the shoulder and says, hey, man, what's up? And like knows your name and everything like that. You're probably going to USC. So a lot of other places are really jealous of what USC had going on. So, you know, then this goes in, they research it, they look into the infractions, and then NCAA just comes down extremely hard on them. I mean, within, you know, a couple inches of being the death penalty, which SMU had gotten a couple decades before. And, you know, it ruins the program. You know, they have not been the same since.

15:16Here we are almost two decades out, and they really haven't been relevant. but they played decently last year. They might have a good team coming up this year, but they really haven't been. It just crushed the program. And I think actually in a way, and I make this argument a little bit in the book, that this helped lead to what we have now, the reforms in the game right now, which by the way are imperfect, but at least these guys are being compensated. And I think what it did is it dropped the scales from our eyes. We're like, what is the NCAA doing, man? I mean, here's this kid who should be, he can't make any money off his name and they're selling his number five jersey in the in the store and you know he's making literally gobs of money for not just his school but the television partners all sorts of stuff like that so i i think this was actually pretty kind of a seminal moment in this scandal it was a seminal moment in college i'm totally with you and this is what makes the book so fascinating because you're dealing with a culture that's changing right we're going from this like puritan culture of amateur football to the reality of our commercial contemporary culture.

16:21Right. And unfortunately he's caught in the web of this thing and that's what makes it hypocritical. You know, when I, I thought you did it, by the way, I thought you did a really good job of reporting it objectively. And, uh, I did a little bit of research on you. I know you did 150 interviews for this. So, uh, when I, when I hear that somebody did 150 interviews, I'm like, okay, Monty, what was, was there a single conversation? Was there something that you were like, wow, this stood out? Was it, was there one conversation where you, you set off the microphone and the recorder like, whoa, that was revealing.

16:54There were a lot actually, you know, somehow I convinced Carol. Tell me about a couple of them then. Okay. Somehow, somehow I convinced Carol to sit down with me for seven long interviews, which was really, really interesting because he's old enough now to start thinking about legacy, but not too old, not to remember a lot of the stories. And he wasn't happy with a lot of the things that I, not a lot, but some of the things I put in there, he was actually pretty angry about them. So he was great. I thought Lane Kiffin was fascinating. I mean, he's just an interesting person, right? I mean, he's just this kind of, I went down and interviewed him when he was still at Ole Miss and he had, speak of dogs, he had a Labrador retriever that kept running in and out of his office while I was interviewing him.

17:38But, you know, you get a lot of the best stuff from not necessarily the big names. You know, I've had this happen in a lot of books, actually. It's like the punter or the backup tight end or someone like that can just give you like just great stuff because they were observing it, right? And they're not worried so much about their image. So like someone like Matt Liner or someone might be. So you just get a lot of great stuff. But it was so fun. I mean, I really enjoyed doing all of these interviews. I can hear their voices when I read it on the paper. I can still hear people's voices when that, you know, it really imprints itself on your brain.

18:12I love doing interviews. Yeah. I mean, and it comes out in the book. I feel like I'm, I'm feel like I got to know these personalities and I feel like I also got to relive a point. You know, the problem is what at that period of time in my life, I was so busy that yes, that I watched the USC Notre Dame game. Yes. That I watched these national football championships. Yes. but I didn't really, I wasn't totally fixated on that team. Right. And you brought it back to life for me and you brought it back to life for me in a way that was very human. And so I guess that's my real question. When you're doing this stuff as a journalist and as a writer, tell us about the pathos.

18:55Tell us about the people that you're meeting and tell us things about them that you don't get from their one dimensional celebrity, if you will. I mean, to me, this is one of the most fascinating. It's like it's like this. It's why it's such a privilege to do this job, because it's like I wouldn't meet a lot of these people and have conversations with them if I wasn't doing this job. and be able to sort of really think about what I want to talk to these people about before, like really prep for it, stuff like that. But, you know, I just love, I mean, they are all human. I mean, I can remember interviewing Mark Sanchez and having a great interview with him.

19:35And he's like, you know, real, you know, like bro and all this kind of stuff. And he's got his, all of his bracelets on and his flip-flops on and stuff like that. And then, you know, a month later, the guy's in jail for doing something absolutely crazy. So, you know, you, you, we forget that these people like Reggie Bush, like Pete Carroll, like Matt Leiner, we forget they're kind of human, right? So it's fun to go actually see them and sit down with them. And, you know, there is a little bit of artifice sometimes with an interview, but if you, if you, if you really kind of just let your guard down and have a conversation, you lose some of that artifice a little bit.

20:07And I think you really do get to the kind of, you know, the human part of it, which to me is always the most interesting part. Like I'm not necessarily worried about the, the, the sort of how of all of this, I'm more interested in the why, right? Like, so what, what, what motivated Carol to do, to be like this? What motivated these guys to do this? What motivated Reggie Bush to become involved with these, with these sketchy guys? You know, I mean, motivations to me are really, are really, really interesting. And obsessions are interesting too, right? I mean, I love, I love writing about people who are obsessed with something.

20:37I think that really obsessions kind of make the world go around a little bit, you know, they're, they're dangerous, right? but they do make the world go around. College football today. I want you now, because we've gone through this economic metamorphosis. So tell me in your mind as a sports enthusiast and a writer and basically a historian of this, how is college football today different from the time of men of Troy? Yeah. Well, they're being paid legally for one, right? You know, one of the things that it was interesting in Manitoy is how many people were just willing to talk now about, you know, I talked to the tight end, I talked to Lendale White, and they're like, yeah, we got paid, whatever, you know, it's just kind of part of the thing.

21:21I think as a fan, I'll speak first as a fan. I think as a fan, it is unsettling what's going on right now a little bit. It's just a little bit too, like for instance, Michigan winning the national title. I know it's basketball, but it's a good example. None of those players were on that team the year before right so as a fan even if you went to michigan like how much of a a real you know kind of how much how much of a love affair can you have with a team like that that's made up of all mercenaries uh and it's not the 1980 u.s olympic team anymore correct correct and there is a beauty i mean there wasn't really true amateurism right but there was a beauty to this sort of feeling that you know these guys are out there playing for the love of game whatever Now, I do think they should be paid.

22:05You know, I would love for a czar of college football and college sports to come in and just fix this. I mean, I think there's some compromises you can make, right? I mean, they should be paid 100%. Should they be able to transfer every year and stay for seven years? Probably not, right? There could be, but they're going to have to have collective bargaining. It's going to be a real mess if they ever do it. But I just find it to be, you know, people call it the Wild West. It's kind of the cliche, but that's what it is. It's just, it's just, it's a little bit just unsettling. And, you know, we like teams because we do cheer for the laundry, as Jerry Seinfeld once said, but we love the players too.

22:37You know, I mean, you as a Jets fan, you're probably a big Kenny O 'Brien fan. Kenny O 'Brien, you know, Sanchez. I was there for the butt fumble, man. Yeah. Thanksgiving, man. He looked good. Sanchez looked good those first two years. I was in the box watching the butt fumble. And, man, I had a lot of empathy for Woody that night. He was really frustrated. I bet. I mean, the Patriots have just done a number on this team for, you know, forever. But I'm down to the five words. If you've ever watched our podcast, we pick five words out of your book. I want you to react to the words and give me a sentence or two.

23:12So if I say the word football to you, Monty Berg, what do you say? America's game. Right. Profits, man. I hear profits. Violent and balletic. It has this nice combination of what you would call the sublime. Kierkegaard called the sublime beauty and terror, and that's football. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Okay. USC Trojans. Just a beautiful place to go to school. I mean, it's particularly right, not necessarily the surrounding area, but the campus. And the Trojan part of it really interested me. I had a whole little section of the book where I looked into the Trojan War, and I sort of love that. I love the guy on the horse with the sword and all that sort of stuff and the fuzzy thing on the top of his head.

23:57Listen, it's a beautiful canvas. I've been there before. If I say NIL to you, what do you say? It's a very good thing that these kids can capitalize on their name, image, and likeness. It's very anti-American, anti-capitalist to not be able to do that. Right. Okay. So NIL for everybody listening in, we've got a lot of young viewers, is name, image, and likeness. This is now the opportunity for these young players to make money off of their success in their sport. And we both think it's a good thing, I would say, right? I mean, I agree with that. I think it's have to do that for these young men.

24:32Yeah. All right. I'm going to say, Nick. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I was going to say, why could someone, a software developer or Zuckerberg, capitalize on what he did at Harvard, right? And a football player can't capitalize what he does on the football field. It completely makes sense to me. I'm glad we're there now as a culture and a society. Okay, ready? Nick Saban. Nick Saban. Best college coach of all time. A true believer that in sort of process thinking, and someone like Carol and like a lot of other very successful people I know, they loved day-to-day the minute-to-minute part of their jobs they absolutely can't live without it and that's really what makes them successful i feel like i mean nick saban and p carroll loved practice they loved designing uh the training meals for the for the players they loved all of the minutia of of what they did and i found whether it's a hedge fund person or CEO or a great baseball player or whatever, that is the common trait is that they love the little tiny things that make up the greater whole.

25:44And Saban is kind of the avatar of that. Okay. I'm a huge fan of Nick Saban. And I'm going to give you the last word, but here's my last two words. Pete Carroll. I would say unconventional and ahead of his time. um you know using uh psychology he was one of the first people to really get psychology into his coaching uh using you know even going as far to use like far eastern mysticism and all kinds of these all these inputs and he kind of turned the what used to be sort of a pejorative which was a player's coach he kind of turned that on his head a little bit i think he was way ahead of his time i think unfortunately he had the historical accent of being kind of around the same time as nick Saban, who's probably the best college football coach of all time, Bill Belichick, who's probably the best NFL pro coach of all time.

26:34And here you have, where do you put Carroll? And so it's a little bit unfortunate that he came around at the same time. He won't get his due, but I think he's a very influential coach in the game of football. When I hear Pete Carroll, I think culture chameleon. He got himself to Vegas. He got his ass fired, but he got himself to Vegas. right but i mean also at 74 too he got himself the biggest you know yeah i think there's a reason why by the way you talked about the puritanical nature of the east coast there's a reason why he thrived on the west coast and didn't thrive on the east coast tell me what east coast there is that puritanical thing right if you don't do it the sort of if you ride your 10 speed and wear to practice and you wear flip-flops in the office it's kind of like people look at you funny and they love to get down on you like that.