The Death of Power As We Know It - Elizabeth Day

17:32Elizabeth Day:manifests you know so this is another that's such a good insight you're so well mister but it's not

17:38Anthony Scaramucci:my insight it's your insight i mean this is basically what you displayed here in the book you know and and did you see the movie saltburn by by the way yes now saltburn came out after the party so i want you to read the party anthony okay well see what you think of it now emma finnell

17:54Elizabeth Day:is such a talent and i think she was definitely braver in making certain decisions with saltburn than I would have been when I was writing the party in 2017. And so that's very interesting because I think she is an insider in terms of her background, but an outsider in terms of her outlook and really comfortable with that and brave within it. So I'm very interested to see what you make of the party having seen Saul Bird, but you're so right to pick up on the fact that Martin and Ben are these kind of archetypes. So to add an extra layer of complexity, Martin is also secretly in love with Ben, his best friend, but he doesn't really understand his own sexuality for a really long time.

18:37Elizabeth Day:And the reason I wanted to revisit them was because I wanted to revisit Martin, because I felt like in the party, he never got his redemption. He had a really difficult time and acted in unlikable and somewhat sociopathic ways. And yet I still wanted the reader to root for him. And so with one of us, I wanted to see a character who was getting more comfortable with their identity and their sexuality because the world had caught up with them. And actually, during the course of this book, Martin does get his redemption story. But I also, to be frank, in the eight years since the party was published, so much had changed globally and so much had changed politically that I was eager to explore the new landscape through the lens of these familiar characters.

19:26Elizabeth Day:So what would have happened to Ben Fitzmaurice post-Brexit, post the election of Trump? Well, it turns out that when we meet him in one of us, he is on course to be the next British Prime Minister, in spite of the fact that he has never lived an ordinary day in his life. He's got no connection with the everyday man and woman. And yet there's something about the Brits in particular, I think, where we almost value that. We value that disconnect because we've been so bred by the class system to believe that a leader looks a certain way. And in America, in the United States, there's arguably a different issue, but it's also something that I explore in the book.

20:08Elizabeth Day:I'm a huge reality TV fan. I love watching it as entertainment, but I also think we ignore it at one's own peril because it has become this cultural and political force. What reality TV can do is it can rehabilitate failed politicians at the click of a button, but it can also make someone who I might perceive of as rather unhinged and dangerous. It can make someone like that seem familiar because you're so used to seeing that person on your TV screens in prime time.

20:40Anthony Scaramucci:Yeah.

20:40Elizabeth Day:So they become someone whose danger is transmuted into the sort of lovable but crazy uncle you see at family weddings, and then they get elected.

20:50Anthony Scaramucci:it's well said i mean we're in the reality age you know i've been invited on a few of these shows i did a few of these shows for that reason i wanted to understand the cultural implications i ended up going on the special forces show which i think you have a different name for it in the uk but i became very close to uh uh jason fox he's become a personal mate of mine as robin i got tortured on that show i mean they threw me out of a helicopter they sunk me in a in a car but i learned a lot about how the production is. I want to go to these two characters though, because this is a question I've been dying to ask you about.

21:25Anthony Scaramucci:So talk about Ben and Martin for a second. Ben is the only person in this book where you're using the device of a first person narrator. And it's interesting because Ben, very powerful guy, perhaps the most powerful person in the room, but we never really get inside his head. And so tell me about that. Was that intentional or was this something that you just manifested by accident? Tell me what you were thinking there.

21:52Elizabeth Day:I also love that question. I really enjoy geekily getting into the weeds of specific choices as writers. Martin and I had written in the first person in the party. And so it seemed natural to continue that on. And the reason I wanted to write him in the first person in One of Us is because he's an acute observer of what's going on around him. It's also partly the reason I gave him the job that he has. He is a lecturer in art history at a mediocre university. But if you are used to looking at paintings and sculpture and architecture every day of your life and trying to work out what they say to you, then you're also able to use that to observe the society that you inhabit.

22:34Elizabeth Day:it so that was a great resource for me as the writer that often martin could have this sort of acerbic take on something that i needed the reader to understand then the other three characters this is it's written in a sort of rotational yeah manner which makes it very interesting to read and

22:53Anthony Scaramucci:it it makes it impossible to put the book down because you want to you want to grab into all

22:58Elizabeth Day:there we'll take that quote too yeah um yeah well i'm very influenced by movies and and particularly the movies of robert altman and he obviously uses that structure a lot in shortcuts and other um so the four there are four main characters that you hear from and you're right that only one of them is in the first person when it came to the other ones i wanted to be able to have the role of a kind of omniscient narrator where I could say this is what Serena's thinking and these are the reasons why she's missing this point and I do remember at one stage thinking am I allowed to do this are you allowed to have one character in the first person the other is the third person I think I googled it and found other examples of books where you could actually do it and um that's how it came about really I it wasn't it's a it's a delicious way to write

23:49Anthony Scaramucci:something because it definitely draws people in. Also, what you did with Fliss, I thought was also very interesting, right? Because you have somebody narrating from beyond death. And that's also, there's an element of a ghost story in here too. Why'd you do that?

24:07Elizabeth Day:Well, so Fliss is Ben Fitzmaurice's sister and the book opens and you learn that she has died in somewhat suspicious circumstances. And the first draft of One of Us, I had Fliss as a completely separate chapter. All of her story was in one long chapter at the beginning of the second half. And here I have to give credit to my amazing agents, one of whom is Felicity Blunt, who we have in common, Anthony, and the other two in the US, Meredith Miller and Rebecca Gradinger, and they were the ones who said, we actually think that Fliss is at the heart of this story, And it's so true because at the heart of this story is the toxicity of power and the misogyny of power.

24:49Elizabeth Day:And Fliss, without giving too much away, is the scapegoat for that. She's the victim of it. And my agent said we think she should be seeded through the book earlier. And so I tried to work out a way of doing that that felt natural and congruent and powerful. and again it was a risk it's always a risk when you're narrating from beyond the grave because you have to really convince the reader to go along with you but for Fliss it seemed right and there's something about her knowledge and her peace that is that I think gives the book a whole different dimension so her knowledge and peace from beyond the grave because during her lifetime time she has so many struggles that in a way it's good to hear from her from that perspective i'm talking very vaguely because i don't want to give too much no no i and i and i appreciate that but

25:44Anthony Scaramucci:i think it's important for our viewers and listeners to get the elements of how you're thinking because it'll intoxicate them and encourage them to go out and buy the book i i i want to i've been dying to ask you this question it's a little abrupt but i'm going to ask it anyway um the book is laced with loyalty you get to you do something for the establishment the establishment returns a favor the book is laced with hypocrisy you say something in public but you're doing something completely different in private that's sort of like my buddy mickey

26:16Elizabeth Day:downs with the hbo show industry my buddy too yeah yeah i love mickey you know and but that but

26:22Anthony Scaramucci:But there's that element of that going on at the same time. But is it breaking down, OK, with the arrest of former Ambassador Peter Mandelson, the arrest of former Prince Andrew, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor? Is it breaking down? Is the structure where the citizens have had enough of this nonsense and they can see it more plaintively as a result of social media, et cetera, that they're punching hard at it? Is it breaking down, Elizabeth?

26:57Elizabeth Day:Wow, that's a big one. I think that to a certain extent, it's breaking down, but I don't think there'll be a structural dissolution, specifically in Britain, because I've got more knowledge of that culture. I don't think the structures themselves will be abolished. So I don't think we're going to get rid of the royal family again, because that didn't work well for us the first time. But I do think that what is breaking down, and this is what I firmly hope and believe, is that we are experiencing the death rattle of a kind of patriarchal toxicity that has corrupted power and corrupted our experience as both men and women.

27:42Elizabeth Day:People of all genders are harmed by the kind of power that we now have in place. And so when we see the excesses and when the Epstein files are revealed and when people in power do horrible things to ever increasing degrees of magnitude, the only way I can not lose hope is to believe that it's a kind of parasitic rage. It's the last gasp of this culture before it dies out. And I don't know why we have been chosen to live through this age of transition, because it's a deeply challenging age to live through. But for some reason, we have. And I think we should pay attention to that. I firmly believe there is a reason that we are here when we are here.

28:31Elizabeth Day:And so we all have our part to play, I think, in shaping what comes next. So I think within institutions, you're going to see a huge shift of personnel and hopefully a shift in character to go from where we are now, which is a post-shame culture, into a culture that is filled with integrity and respect for people wherever they come from.

28:56Anthony Scaramucci:It's incredible, you know, because we were talking for the first time, but I actually see it the exact same way you do. It's a hopeful way to see things. But I do believe that generally, most people are good, generally. And I think that we, I think we realize that something is really wrong now and it requires a reset.

29:17Elizabeth Day:So I and just on that, Anthony, I totally agree with you. And I also think most people are good. You know, one of the joys of doing the podcast that I do is that I get to interview so many people from so many different backgrounds and ask them very intimate questions sometimes, you know, about about the worst times in their lives. And that's definitely my perception. And my perception is that when people act in despicable ways, often that's to do with the damage and the trauma that they've experienced. And so my role as a fiction writer is to explore that and to encourage all of us to have a kind of radical empathy, because that is what I believe will change the world.

29:56Anthony Scaramucci:you know and i you know so i've seen that in my own life you know someday you and i will get together we'll have a beer and we can talk a little bit about that and and our need for forgiveness is a very important element of this thing because it's not really necessarily for the forgiveness of others it's for the cleansing of yourself you know sometimes the yes that that's the number one thing so that you don't harbor things uh letting those things go is healthier for your own mindset so i'm i'm uh fortunately i could talk to you forever i was coming to a close but I've been dying to ask this question as well.

30:27Anthony Scaramucci:So, you know, you said on how to fail, half your guests don't know that you write novels, which I thought was very interesting. Okay. But you also said, I'm going to quote you right now, that everything goes into the primordial soup of trying to understand human nature. Okay. So I want to ask this question and you don't have to portray any confidences, but is there a specific conversation on the podcast that cracked something open for you while you were writing this book oh my gosh the level of

31:01Elizabeth Day:research i'm loving it um while i was writing this book or before it or did you have an epiphany

31:09Anthony Scaramucci:yeah that and if you did could you share it with us well i actually had a conversation recently

31:15Elizabeth Day:that really blew my mind and that is probably up there with some of my most favorite episodes ever and it was with Jeanette McCurdy, the writer of the best-selling memoir, I'm Glad My Mum Died, and she's just written her debut novel, Half His Age, which is just fantastic. And she is so unbelievably eloquent when she dissects the dynamic that exists between men and women in today's society. And one of the things that she said to me was that anger is sometimes suppressed resentment. And that really detonated a mini truth bomb. And the other one that is coming to mind is an interview I did with Monica Lewinsky.

31:57Elizabeth Day:And of course, given everything that she went through, and I remember what she went through in the late 90s, and I feel ashamed of myself that I inhaled the prevailing media narrative of the time, which was she's at fault. And rather than looking at her 49 year old boss, who was the most powerful man in the Western world and what abuse of power that was. And so it was a recalibration, that conversation of my own workings out during that era. And she said this amazing thing to me, which was that regret doesn't mean that you've made the wrong decision. and we were talking specifically about not having children and that really released something in me because of course I regret not being a mother in the biological conventional sense and yet it was the right path for me in this lifetime because it's given me so much that whole experience that sadness has given me so much so much in terms of empathy and understanding and creative headspace and a community that understands me and who I feel seen by.

33:03Elizabeth Day:So those two are coming to mind. And then if I can be very greedy and just have one more, it would be a man called Mo Gaudat who came on How to Fail in 2019. He was one of my earliest guests. He used to work for Google. He was an incredible engineer and statistician, but he wasn't happy. and he spent 12 years of his life researching the problematic issue of human happiness. And his work is so revolutionary. And genuinely, if you listen to that episode, it can teach you how to be happier. So I'm going to mangle it by trying to paraphrase it. So everyone should go and listen to that one. Those three, I think, have really shaped me as a person.

33:47Anthony Scaramucci:well lisa i love the answer i was dying to ask that question um where where do we find your podcast i'm assuming it's where all all the podcasts are right spotify apple etc right

33:58Elizabeth Day:exactly your favorite podcast platform it will be there how to fail with elizabeth i encourage

34:03Anthony Scaramucci:people as i've listened to i'm one of your subscribers now and i'm going to go back and listen to some of those old episodes you know you end the book on a note of uh hopefulness, you know, which is basically a story of our lives, isn't it? You know, it's a story about corruption and an abuse of power. Some institutional rot is in there. But I feel like it's an aspirational book. Am I wrong?

34:32Elizabeth Day:No, you're not wrong. And I love that you took that from it because as we've discussed, we both have hope for human nature. And so I have hope for my characters too. And most of them go on a journey of learning more about themselves and really you know I left it deliberately open-ended because I think I'll want to revisit these characters one more time and do the final installment of a trilogy but really the key to contentment is self-awareness and as you say forgiving yourself for the things that you did and striving constantly to do better there are some characters in one of us who end by the final page having done that and there are others who do not and so i'm interested to see what happens next for all of them well listen i loved it the title

35:19Anthony Scaramucci:of the book is one of us we're at the last piece of this podcast elizabeth where my producer and i came up with five words okay and so i'm going to ask you the word whatever comes to your head Give me a few sentences, okay? If I say the word privilege to you, you say what? I say enclosed power that looks down rather than includes. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, pedantic, patronizing. If I say the word ambition, you say what?

35:53Elizabeth Day:I say motivation and aspiration from a female lens, where for so long we have been taught as women that ambition is something to be ashamed of. And actually, I make no bones about the fact that I'm really ambitious because I want to connect with more people. So therefore, I want to have a bigger platform. So those are the words that come up with.

36:18Anthony Scaramucci:Okay. What about the word power, Elizabeth?

36:21Elizabeth Day:power well i'm actually thinking of of peloton at the moment because i'm about to do my 1000th spin class on peloton and they have a power knob that increases resistance um power at the moment sadly alongside peloton i'm thinking of aged men with a strong but failing grip on what they believe is their due. And I really hope and believe that we are entering a phase of transition in terms of what power will end up meaning.

36:57Anthony Scaramucci:It's so interesting because when I hear the word power, I think of Lord Acton and you and I both remember what he said, you know, power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely. Oh my gosh.

37:08Elizabeth Day:Yes. So these aren't very quick fire from me. I'm sorry.

37:11Anthony Scaramucci:I'll endeavor to do better. No, no, no. I like the Peloton reaction. That's the whole point of me bringing this up. Failure. Say the word failure.

37:20Elizabeth Day:Data acquisition. All failure teaches you something meaningful in the fullness of time. And it could be that the only meaningful thing it teaches you is that you are strong enough to survive it.

37:31Anthony Scaramucci:Yeah. Well, amen. Amen.

37:33Elizabeth Day:In and of itself, that's an amazing thing that we're strong enough to survive.

37:37Anthony Scaramucci:I have five children. I think is very important to teach them to have space for failure. One of the aspects of my life, which has actually weirdly benefited my children, Elizabeth, is I have failed so publicly in so many different ways, and I have never hit it or tried to pretend otherwise. It actually is liberating for my children. It gives them space. I have so many rich friends that try to pretend that their life went up in a perfect angle, 45 degrees. Everything was perfect about them. They made no mistakes. And I see that that casts this ridiculous shadow on their children. So, you know, failure is instructive in so many ways and can encourage more people to listen to your podcast.

38:21Anthony Scaramucci:Okay. I'm going to give you the last word, but I'm going to say two words. Okay. Then you give me the last word, Elizabeth Day.

38:29Elizabeth Day:Connected. I love connection. It's my life force and purpose, I think, to connect with other people and to feel connected. I say that also, and I know you're an introvert too, Anthony. I'm an introvert who has learned how to be extrovert.

38:45Anthony Scaramucci:How do you know that I'm an introvert? Because I listen to your podcast and you said it once and I was like,

38:54Elizabeth Day:I need my own space to replenish my energy sources. But once they're replenished, I really do love and value human connection.

39:04Anthony Scaramucci:So interesting that you picked that up because my wife always says that people have no idea how bookwormish and how introverted you actually are because, you know, I can be gregarious in public, but honestly, it's not my nature. You know, it's funny that you brought that up. You know, when I hear Elizabeth Day, let me tell you what I think. if you don't mind please i think uh love of life and all things in it which is the complexities the trials and the tribulations but also the the virtues and the victories of life am i wrong that's so beautiful no you're not wrong at all it's so beautiful we're i mean we're only here

39:46Elizabeth Day:for this crazy moment on this spinning rock. And I'm not sure why, but I know that there's a purpose to it. And that makes me feel so alive. So that's such a beautiful thing for you to say. Thank you.

40:04Anthony Scaramucci:Well, I look forward to listening to your podcast, reading your other books and reading your future books. But the title of this one, One of Us by Elizabeth Day, It's a brilliant novel and I wish you nothing but great success.

40:18Elizabeth Day:Thank you so much for having me on.

40:21Anthony Scaramucci:Okay. All the best to you.

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