The Thriller of the Summer with T.J. Newman

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1:05Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open Book, where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word, from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know I can roll with the punches, so let me know.

1:38Anyways, let's get to it.

1:47My guest today is the incredible TJ Newman. If you want tension and shock, suspense, buckle up. TJ's books are for you. I was at Wellplast bedtime with both of TJ's books. They're absolutely unputdownable. I'm already counting down the days until book three. I'm ready for the all-nighter.

2:15Okay, so joining us now on Open Book, I'm very delighted to bring in TJ Newman. She is a former flight attendant, but she is a international bestselling author now. Wrote two amazing books. The first one was Falling. I have to tell you that you made me an insomniac for two nights. I had to finish the book because I had to find out what the hell was going to happen. And now you're out with Drowning, which also Holly and I could not put down. So the two books, Falling and Now Drowning, both bestsellers. But before we get into the books, I want to start with T.J. Newman. Who are you? How did you become a flight attendant?

2:55And how did you finally find your passion in book writing? How do I narrow it down? First of all, thank you so much for having me on. It's wonderful to talk with you. T.J. Newman, who is she? Where did she come from? How did she get here? Let's see. Well, I'm a storyteller at heart, first and foremost. Always have been, always will be. but my path to where I am now was certainly not straightforward and it certainly was not easy. I started out pursuing theater as my primary avenue of storytelling. I moved to New York City after I got a degree in musical theater and did the whole, you know, starving artist trying to make it, you know, with my dreams of being on Broadway.

3:39And well, since we're not discussing what my next show is, you can guess how well that attempt went. It was nonstop failure, nonstop rejection. And so I left and I moved back home to Phoenix and I moved into my parents' house, you know, and then I'm doing the whole mid twenties living in my childhood bedroom, wondering what I do with my life with a degree in musical theater when the musical theater community just told me I wasn't good enough, you know, all those fun existential crisis questions. And my mom suggested that I apply to Changing Hands Bookstore, a local indie bookstore up the street.

4:16And so I did. And I got a job. And that was, I would say, kind of the first step in the process of where I am now. Because my time at the bookstore was crucial. Absolutely crucial to this journey. You know, I've been a lifelong reader, a lifelong writer. but coming off of the embarrassing failure that I had in New York, my time in the bookstore was the first time that I let myself start to dream again, right? And to think, you know, well, stories, I'm a storyteller. This is a way I can tell stories and be with stories and be with people who love stories and want to talk about stories like we are, you know, in a way that's not quite so out there, quite so public.

5:02So I started writing at night, you know, in secret. I didn't tell anybody. I just started writing stories. And it was my time at the bookstore that my dream, my lifelong dream of being a published author became a concrete goal. You know, I remember shelving books, you know, by authors with the last name Newman. And I used to take my thumb and I would cover up their first name and pretend that it was my own book that I was shelving. So you manifested a lot of this, you know, but the job as a flight attendant, I think, inspired some of the storytelling, right? I mean, you, you know, and I read Cockpit Confidential.

5:41I don't know if you ever read that book, Cockpit Confidential. Did you ever read that book? I have not, no, but I will look it up. Okay. But anyway, it was about flight attendants. It was interviews of pilots and flight attendants about the good, bad, and the ugly that takes place on a plane and all the different things that are happening on a plane while, you know, the passengers are comfortably in the plane taking off and landing safely. But you guys are, you know, if necessary, trained in CPR, if necessary, you know, can help bring somebody back to life under cardiac arrest, if necessary, you know exactly where at any point in the flight path to get that plane out of the air if there's an emergency.

6:18And I think so much of that realism comes out in your books. I mean, your books, let's face it. I mean, if you're afraid of flying, TJ, your books are not the book. I mean, you know, I can't, my wife won't read the book because she's a panic flyer. And I'm like, oh, you got to read this. It's about blah. She's like, oh no, no, no. She starts sweating. But tell me about how you used your experience as a flight attendant to infuse these stories with so much realism. Yeah, absolutely. I, um, you know, people will say to me all the time, like you're, you were a flight attendant. Why are you thinking about things like this?

6:51Why are you thinking of all these terrible things that could go wrong? And my response to that was always, that's exactly what you want your flight attendants thinking about. That is how pilots and flight attendants are trained to think. We are constantly thinking about what could go wrong. And in the unlikely event that something does go wrong, what am I going to do about it? That's it's, it's a safety forward, you know, habit of thinking so that you're ready in the unlikely event that something does happen. So that's how we're trained to think. And, and, you know, you alluded to planes and flights being, um, something always going on, something always happening.

7:25And that's the truth. It's a, it's a, you know, it's a, you get several hundred people in a, in a single space that are complete strangers and, and you sort of close them in. Like there's bound to be conflict and drama that's going to come up. And whether or not it's, you know, the person in front of you is reclining their seat, you know, the baby's crying, whatever it is, there's conflict. And so you combine someone who has an imagination that's constantly turning conflict into major stories with that kind of environment. And when I was on the plane, it was just I was constantly just seeing stories and seeing potentials and seeing ideas.

8:01Okay, so let's go to this brand new book. It's coming out on May 30th. The first book was Falling. So I don't want to do any plot spoilers. They're amazing book. I mean, I, as I said, couldn't stop reading it. This one's Drowning. It's different. It's cool. Tell us a little bit about the plot. Yeah, thank you. I knew that when I started writing the second book that I was, I knew two things. I knew I was going to have to go bigger and I knew I was going to have to make it different. So insofar as they're both, you know, dramatic incidents that happen on a flight, that's sort of the extent of they diverge shortly after that drowning.

8:38Drowning tells the story of flight 1421, a flight from Honolulu to San Francisco that crashes into the ocean six minutes after takeoff. The passengers immediately evacuate until an explosion forces those who didn't get out in time to close the doors. But it's too late, plain floods and sinks, with 12 people trapped inside, including a father and his 11-year-old daughter. So now their only hope at survival lies with an elite rescue team on the surface led by her mother and his soon-to-be ex-wife. Okay. So let me ask you this. Why? I mean, that is shit-scaring if ever there was something. So, you know, are you just like a Stephen King of air travel or something like that?

9:24I mean, why? Why not? I mean, you know, when I thought of that scenario, when I thought a plane with people trapped inside underwater with the plane teetering on the edge of an undersea cliff, when I think of that, my immediate next question is, okay, what happens? And those are the stories that I write, right? The stories that I, you hear the setup and you go, you turn the page, right? You want to know what happened. So those are the types of stories I love. They're the books I love to read, the movies I love to watch. I just, I love those massive, fun, blockbuster stories that are just an escape, right?

10:06They're just entertaining. I love that. Those are the type of stories I like to tell. And I don't know, it's a fine line between, you know, like we dig into our fears, right? That's why horror movies exist. That's why Stephen King is Stephen King, because there's something really exciting about exploring your fears in a way that if it gets to be too much, you set the book down, you press pause on the movie, you know, you can, it's a, it's a, it's a way to explore big feelings without the actual physical or emotional risk of having them happen in real life. Yes. It's interesting. So if we, I mean, not to get existential, but if we have no death, we probably have less fear, right?

10:48But our whole biology is set up for our survival, which is why we have this fight or flight response as we were roaming the jungles. And now we're in this sort of civilized jungle, or perhaps it's more uncivilized than we think. Let me step back for a second. Is it safe to fly? Oh, it's very safe to fly. Aviation, you know, airline travel is the safest form of transportation there is. Statistically, it's proven. It's very safe to fly. Okay. So we both agree on that. I mean, I don't have any fear of flying, but I do love these stories because this is that like 19 Sigma event. Oh my God. Then what happens?

11:23And of course we're living vicariously. Again, I want to give the plot away, but you have some fantastic characters in this story. So Will and Shannon, Molly, Kit, Chris, I mean, these are fantastic characters. So in a broad brush, without giving a lot of the plot away, paint for us a little bit about these characters, what they're like, how they interact with each other. Why are they so interesting? This story, I mean, the whole, I just gave you the elevator pitch of the book, but that's not what the story is. That's just the setup. The story is really about a fractured family coming back together.

12:00You've got Will and you've got Chris, a married couple who are now separated, who are dealing with a family tragedy, the grieving and reckoning with a family tragedy that happened before this plane incident. They're dealing with that to begin with. And now their 11-year-old daughter is caught in the middle of potentially another catastrophic tragedy to their family. So you've got two motivations there with one parent topside and one parent inside the plane who literally will stop at nothing to protect their child. And then in the midst of that, you've got the other 10 people that are in the plane with Will and Shannon who are, you know, think of any flight you've ever taken.

12:45It's the guy sitting next to you. It's the woman in the row in front of you. These people that you know absolutely nothing about that in a given circumstance that goes haywire, you're going to find out a lot about this person very quickly. And I think that that came from my experience as a flight attendant, you know, being on a flight with a hundred some strangers every day and trying to read these people, right? Like flight attendants are also trained to think like that. We're trained to be situationally aware and read people. Is this guy sick? Is this going to be a medical issue once we're up in the air that if I can handle this on the ground, I should, Does this person appear to be intoxicated?

13:25This woman is crying. Why is she crying? Is this going to be an issue? Is this person a threat? We are trained to constantly be looking at people and try to... And also, who's a friendly? Who do you think, okay, we've got a problem on the flight. This guy can help me, a medical doctor, a former Marine, a police officer, a fireman, a firewoman. Exactly. We call them ABPs, able-bodied persons. And they're the people that we know during boarding, a flight attendant is looking at people and going, okay, that's a very strong college age young man that in the event that I need someone of that description, I'm making a mental note of where he's sitting.

14:01So I know where to go to. So yes, that's, you know, that's what we're constantly doing. And I'm fascinated by that idea in both of my books, in both of these stories of what happens when you put ordinary people into extraordinary situations, because, you know, so many of these amazing stories that I love to read and watch. They're about the astronaut. They're about the Navy SEAL. They're about a person who is qualified to do this. I'm really interested in what happens when you get a worst case scenario with a bunch of people who aren't qualified to do this. They're just regular old Joes off the street.

14:39What does that bring out in a person? No, exactly. Yeah. And also too, it brings the distance. When you're reading a book and you go, oh gosh, what is he going to do? Meaning the character, when it's a situation that you could feasibly find yourself in, it's way shorter to go to, well, what would I do? And then that just enhances the whole reading experience as far as I'm concerned, because you're constantly wondering, gosh, I could be in this situation one day. What would I do? That's interesting. You know, I always think about that. You know, I did this, I did the Special Forces reality show last year for Fox.

15:14So I was out there with Mike Piazza and Dwight Howard, a few guys. And I did the show for a lot of different reasons. I wanted to see if I could handle it. I mean, they put me in a car. They drowned me. I failed, by the way, because I couldn't hold. I panicked. I couldn't hold my breath for the requisite 60 seconds. I left the car after 30 seconds. I don't feel like dying, but I did stomach getting in the car with the seatbelt on, and they sunk me to the bottom. I backed off the helicopter just fine, 30 feet in the air, did a back dive off the copter. I mean, they set me on fire. I put myself out of fire.

15:45But, you know, I'm always looking for that. Could I handle it? Could I test myself in this situation? How do you know that about you? You obviously have that. Did you always have that? Did you grow into it? How do you know that about you? I think I'm my mother's daughter. I think I was raised by a woman that I've seen handle business when she needed to handle business. um so it's a burn the boats mentality i gotta do this nothing else i can do gotta do it so i'm just gonna go ahead and do it because what's the alternative right like why the alternative to that is double and triple guess themselves tj that's why i'm asking you know sometimes you just have to shoot the target right that's exactly right it's not that i don't second and triple guess myself too i get that it's just at a certain point you have to and i don't care what it is that you're going up against, at a certain point, you just have to kind of go, why is my fear greater than what I want to accomplish here?

16:43Yeah, no, exactly. So let me ask you this, the 9-11 flights, what was your reaction to the 9-11 flights? And as a flight attendant and somebody that obviously that was an unspeakable tragedy, and we all lost friends on 9-11, at least us here in New York, what's your reaction to the 9-11 flights? Changed everything. I wasn't working as a flight attendant at that time. I was too young, but my mother was. And having that sort of, you know, everybody has a personal relationship to that day. And that is one aspect of mine and that it was easy to envision. Well, my mom could have been on one of those flights.

17:22My mom could have been a working flight attendant on one of those four flights. And that, you know, that changes your perspective on it. Look, that, that day, there was aviation before that day and aviation after that day. Yeah, it changed everything. And my mom, you know, my mom's, she's a career flight attendant her whole life. So she flew in both eras. And so I got to, you know, talk to her and sort of understand from her perspective, how that did change things. But I think also, it's, it's, it's why, it's why I'm fascinated with the industry and why I portray it with as much respect as I do because, and that is how I write my books.

18:07I have written my books to portray pilots and flight attendants as the heroes that they are. They are first responders. They are on the front lines. And especially as flight attendants, you know, it's a common misconception that flight attendants are on board for service, that we're there to bring you a drink. And I I understand that because that's typically all you ever see us do. And if that you want the paying customer to see that and only believe that, but you know, the, the underside of that story, that's what makes your book so fascinating. Exactly. If you never see me doing my job, that's a great day.

18:46If all you see me doing is bringing you peanuts and a drink, then I have not done my job that day. I've just provided some service. And that's a great day for me because a flight attendant is on board for safety and security. Full stop. That is the purpose for a flight attendant on board. We're there to evacuate an airplane. We're there to, you know, shock your heart when you, you know, go into cardiac arrest. We are there to provide safety and security. Service is just something that we gladly provide. And so writing these books from that angle and, you know, a response that I get all the time from readers is I never knew.

19:25I never really realized that flight attendants were that well trained, that they, you know, had that kind of expertise, that there was that much responsibility in the role of a flight attendant. This has increased my role, my respect for the role of a flight attendant. Like nothing makes me happier than that feedback because that's what they are. They're heroes, and that's how I portray them. Okay, so got to ask you this question, because it was asked of Stephen King. He was asked, do you have a dark side? And Stephen King said, yes, I do have a dark side, and thank God for it. That was his answer to it, because it helped him manifest all these imaginative stories, which have led to such a best-selling storied career.

20:09Do you have a dark side? I'm not sure you can write in the genre with which I write in and Stephen King writes in. And I don't even know if you can be a human being without having a dark side. I think that it's the dark that helps us understand the light, right? Like you look at when I look at my stories, it's like it's easy to say they're dark and they're, you know, danger filled and fear filled and and all of this. But really, when you read them, they're about love and hope. and yeah no question underdog heroism about heroism you you write about heroes which you can't have right i write about heroes and what is a hero a hero is courageous and the only way that you have courage is if there is also the presence of fear right you're not courageous on a happy day you're not courageous when everything's going right you're courageous when you're faced with the darkness.

21:04And so in order to have what my stories really are, what I truly love, which is an underdog, which is a happy ending, which is a success story, which is all of these, you know, lovely, positive things. You can't have that without the darkness. Let's talk about the open letter to dreamers. And let me set the backdrop for our listeners. you had 41 rejections. Your friend Don Winslow writes about it on Twitter often that you were blown to pieces and told no, no, no, no, no repeatedly. And yet you hung in there and now you have, correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like that you sold the rights to falling to Universal.

21:48So you went from no, no, no to two bestselling books. This one will be a bestseller, of course, because everyone that read the first one is going to read this one. Tell us about the open letter to dreamers? What did you write in that letter? And what were you feeling when you wrote it? I wrote an open letter to dreamers for Deadline Hollywood that was basically the letter that I wish I would have read. The letter that I wish someone would have written me after I left New York, after I failed, after I basically decided to give up. I needed somebody to say, yeah, it's hard. And yeah, the odds aren't good.

22:28But why not you? Somebody's going to break through. Somebody's going to do it. Why not you? Right. Exactly. Exactly. I think that's the message. Isn't that the message about life? I'm going to humble brag here, I guess, or brag, brag. My 28-year-old daughter, 27-year-old daughter, a series of rejections singing, has now got the lead to play Christine in Phantom of the Opera, Europe. She was casted by Andrew Lloyd Webber. Ten solid years of getting the stiff arm in her face, and she finally has that breakthrough moment. So at what point do you give up, right? And my answer is never. You know, you lock on the target, bust through the target, burn the boats, take no prisoners.

23:11You feel that way? I do feel that way. I mean, look, that's a personal question that everybody has to answer for themselves. The problem is I feel like people's answer that they would answer that for themselves gets influenced by too many external influences. And I feel like it's easier to listen to the fear and to listen to the voices that are telling you not, you should stop. You're not good enough. No, next. Thank you. It's easier to listen to those people sometimes than it is to our own internal compass, like your daughter who is saying, no, I was born for this. This is what I was meant to do.

23:49This is my right. I'm going to take it no matter what happens to me, right? Exactly. And delayed is not denied. And I am going to keep moving forward until I get exactly what I want. And congratulations to your daughter. That is, I am so happy hearing that. Yeah. I'm bringing her out because I'm obviously very proud of her, but you remind me of her because you guys have a can-do-ism and a never-give-up attitude. I think it's so important for people. It is darkest before dawn. You know, if you took the 40th rejection and went home, you wouldn't be where you are today. And I think people have to realize that they have to get up and they have to persist against the odds because everything's against the odds.

24:30Our own existence is against the odds. So you got, falling is at universal. You sold drowning to Warner Brothers. So what's going to happen next? I mean, I need another book, TJ. So what are we doing next? I'm deep into my third book. And I'm playing the third one as close to the best as I played the first two. But, you know, I've said it before. You don't work in an industry as fascinating and dramatic as aviation. And only, you know, you don't do that for 10 years and only walk away with like one or two good ideas. So I'm deep into working on it. We've got another horror story coming. Just so you know, the character names of like Anthony and Holly, my producer, they are available, by the way.

25:14You know, they're and they're strong. They're strong names, TJ. They're strong. I've never had a Holly and I've never had a Anthony. So, you know. No. OK, just throwing out that, throwing out ideas out there. So your friend and mentor, Don Winslow, who's written an amazing trilogy. And obviously, I've read all of the Homeric novels, you know, the Iliad and the Odyssey. And I read the Aeneid. So great corollaries. And he sent me the key so I could identify which mobsters were actually the ancient Greeks and the ancient Romans. We had a great time on our podcast together. But I said, listen, I got a question for T.J.