Trump World vs Trump Reality with Michael Wolff

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1:33Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci, and this is Open Book, where I talk to some of the brightest minds about everything surrounding the written word. That's everything. That's from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Before we dive in, make sure to follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to leave a review. Good or bad, I want to hear from you. I want to hear whether you're enjoying it or where we can improve. And I can take the hits. So let me know. If you don't like something, say it straight. Now let's get into it.

2:16One of the things that has not made the Trump camp happy this week is my guest, Michael Wolf's new book, All or Nothing. Michael has spent years pulling back the curtain on the chaos inside Trump's world, and today we're diving into the reality of all of it. Does Trump even like being president? What about his murky ties to Putin, the indictments, and the endless backstabbing? It's pure madness. Michael is here to reveal just how deep the dysfunction goes.

2:54Joining us now on Open Book is a blockbuster bestselling author, New York Times number one bestselling author, award-winning journalist, Michael Wolff. He's written a couple of great books about Trump, but also books about television, phenomenal journalist. The title of this book is All or Nothing, How Trump Recaptured America. And it really is all or nothing because he's either going to jail, Michael Wolff, or he's going to be the most powerful person in the world. It's a very binary outcome to him. So I think it's a great title. But I was telling my staff, because I've read all of your books, I think this is your best one.

3:29And I think it's your best one because it's the best research. I feel like these are first primary sources you've gone to that have given you great detail about how things have gone on. So I just want to start right there. Tell us as much as you can about what is going on and why are you surprised by the access that you had? Well, I'm not. I mean, overall, over the many years now, I am surprised, but I guess I have grown quite used to it since my life is a kind of, And now for nearly 10 years has been a constant, certainly daily conversation with people around Donald Trump telling me the unbelievable stuff that happens.

4:22So it's and, you know, frankly, I think that they they talk to me independent of the fact that I'm that I'm writing a book or actually in spite of the book. They I think they forget. I'm going to push you back for a second. Sorry, I'm going to get you to think about this. I think it's because of. I actually think it's because of. I think that they have decided that you're accurately depicting what is going on, and they almost want an accurate depiction, even if it's not. I accept. Yes, and I accept that. I mean, I've often wondered about what's going on here. Why me? And I do think that the other books, they've thought, well, this is accurate.

5:03This reflects their experience. No, no, I listen. But also at the same time, and it's a thing, you know, as a journalist, this is a curious state of curious development that I actually like these people and they like me. And we've become friends over this period of time talking about this phenomenon in their lives and in my life, too. Donald Trump. What does this mean? How did this happen? Everybody is trying to figure this out. Yeah. And I have a big question for you. After reading the book and your other books, there's a group of stalwarts that stay with Trump. There's the Jason Millers and so forth, right?

5:48And there's a group of people that are locked in with him. But the core group of people, the Bannons have circulated out. The Hope Hicks's have circulated out, as you aptly describe in one of the chapters. She's engaged now to Goldman Sachs' partner. She's out of the picture. and but there is a carousel of people. Trump manages to find Hope Hicks lookalikes. He manages to find replacements for Steve Bannon or replacements for Kellyanne Conway. Everybody gets into a little bit of a sticky situation with Trump. Everybody. Even the ones that stay with him get - A hundred percent. Sticky is a generous way to put it.

6:29Generous. They get stung by him. They get beat up by him. They get bullied by him or tortured by him. Some ignore it and stay. Those are like the Dan Scavino's of the world. Others, they get exhausted from it. They leave. But he always manages to recruit a new group of people, the Elon Musks, the Howard Lutnicks, the Susie Wiles. What is that? What is that about Donald based on your observation. I think it's more about the presidency and the White House or the possibility of the presidency that's the intoxicant here. Because otherwise, it does strain logic. Everybody knows that 100 % of the time, you're going to end up fired, humiliated, indicted, it won't have a happy ending.

7:24So why do you do this? You do it because, I think, because of the potential of his success. And even that almost defies logic because how, if you think this through, there's no reason that he should be successful except that there is this feeling. And people around him talk about this, that there is some kind of magic or luck or thing that they can't explain, but is nevertheless real enough for them to hook their - And you write about this beautifully. So I'm going to explain it to our listeners. There's a cauldron. There's craziness. There's impetuosity. There's criminal indictments. There's disorganization.

8:15There's chaos. But then there's also some kind of genius going on as well. You've written about TV. You've written about Fox News. I've interviewed you related to Fox News and the concepts of imagery. Trump understands some of this stuff, right? He understands how to create an image, an image of success, or how to gravitate and pull a certain group of people into his vision of things, anchor him. Well, let's, yeah, let's remember that, I mean, to me, the singular, singularly the most important thing about Donald Trump is that he was the star of a top rated reality television show for 14 years.

8:5814 years. I mean, you learn the game. And, you know, part of that game, the reality television show game is conflict. You have to have conflict, a constant conflict. If you don't, you're going to lose your audience and lose ratings. And so you have to manufacture another conflict. And it's all about manufacturing conflict, which, of course, is what partly what goes on on a daily basis in the Trump circle. But a little bit more organized this time, no? I mean, I feel like the 2016 campaign compared to the 2024 campaign is the same lead singer, but it feels like the band and the guys that are organizing the AV and the people putting the drum in place, it may be a little more organized.

9:52Am I wrong? No, I mean, absolutely. There was a core group of political professionals handling the campaign. They were not MAGA people. They were not ideological people. They weren't particularly Trump people. They were political professionals whose sole measure of success is winning. And they got to do their thing. So the interesting thing is how come they got to do their thing? without him interfering. And I would say that the indictments and the trials and the whole legal morass and that legal threat kept him occupied enough for them to do their jobs. Yeah. Yeah. So basically, had he not been indicted, there would have been more chaos, He was almost scared shit into listening to them, to say it differently.

10:53Yes, I think that that is true. And had he not been indicted, there would have been less a story for him to exploit. I mean, ultimately, yes, if you looked at this scheme or strategy or tactic of indicting him on the part of the establishment or the Justice Department, yes, I think profoundly backfired. Boris Epstein is a pretty high profile figure in the Trump orbit. He's been in and out of the orbit. I know Boris pretty well. I campaigned with him in 2016. You write that he has reasonably, if not reasonably, very significant sway over a lot of Trump's legal and political strategies. And so why is that, you think?

11:39And what is Donald Trump's real opinion of Boris Epstein? Well, you know, I think that that's – I mean, the reason Boris has sway is that he says exactly what Trump wants to hear and is a virtuoso at that. The curious thing is that Trump acknowledges that. You know, there are instances in the book where I have him, you know, Boris calling, and Boris calls constantly 10, 20 times a day, of Trump holding up the phone with Boris's name on the phone and holds it out to the people that he's having lunch with and said, you know, here's my Boris on the phone. He's going to tell me why it's so great that I've been indicted another time.

12:27So there is that kind of acknowledgement on Trump that he likes a yes man around him, but will also kick the guy for being the yes man. And Boris's strength in this is that that doesn't matter to him. He can accept any humiliation and has weathered many humiliations at Trump's hand. They accuse him of taking money, all the different types of things. He just hangs in there. He was thrown out. He was in the first White House for a couple of weeks, and then they threw him out. Right. Yeah, I've had that experience, Michael. I know the experience. Susie Wiles, that's the toughest job in Washington, probably, right?

13:10I think one of the toughest. She makes it. You mean the chief of staff? Yeah. No. I mean, it's an interesting development. All his other chiefs of staff, he really didn't know. He had no real relationship with them. Um, and, and, you know, in that, in that Trump way, it was really Jared who was the, at least the shadow chief of staff. Right. Um, but he now has in Susie Wiles, he has a chief of staff who he's had now effectively a very long relationship with. Um, you know, although, although I, you know, when he first met Susie Wiles in 2016, she had been hired as the Florida to, to run Florida for, for him.

13:50And he first met her, you know, he went back to his staff, in this case, Bannon, and said, she looks like a refrigerator, fire her. She was not fired. They went on to win Florida once, twice, and then she became, in exile in Mar-a-Lago, she became kind of the keeper of the office and is now the keeper of the Oval Office. No, but Trump looks like a refrigerator. So what I love about Trump is that literally he's calling other people the refrigerator. It's like the kettle calling the pot black. It's unbelievable his self-image versus the reality of him. No, he clearly has no idea about the way he looks.

14:39I mean, he is one of the most extraordinary and, you might say, horrifying looking people in the history of modern politics. Yeah, but I mean, there's an image there, though. There's something about the image. He's got the blue suit, the red tie, the orange. Loves it. Remember, he lives in his own reality. And in that reality, he's a super handsome guy. Let's go to Las Evitas for a second. Chris, I've known him forever. He's a great political operator. He didn't take a job in the administration. Well, I would read that as he didn't get a job in the administration. I mean, I think he's saying, yes, he decided to stay out.

15:21But I don't think you win a presidential campaign. and at the very top of the campaign organization and then willingly on your own volition walk away. Okay. So you think that he wanted a job, didn't get one. What about Jason? Jason Miller, career operative? Yeah. I guess I would have to say the same thing. You just don't walk away from the White House. Now, of course, you might say, and I suppose with a certain amount of experience and maturity, you should say, you know, why should I go into this, you know, and risk humiliation, being fired, indictments, when I can stay outside of the White House and potentially make a lot of money.

16:14It's just not how political people usually respond. one of my laugh lines when i'm out publicly speaking uh because it's true you know one thing about laughter is that when you say something true people laugh i always say that my wife hates donald trump almost as much as melania hates him almost as much then i get a good laugh out of that but you write in the book literally and i'm using your words not mine melania blank Mike hates her husband. So tell us about that. Well, you know, this was I was fishing around. I was, you know, that's a quote from one of the people in the close Trump circle.

16:54And I was saying to this person, you know, she hasn't made one campaign appearance and did not until the last week of the campaign. And she hasn't shown up in any instances in any of his court appearances. You know, and I had, you know, somebody told me the story of Jason Miller approaching her and saying, hey, it would be great in terms of the first indictment of you coming there and stand by your man. And then she said, then she laughed and said, nice try. Anyway, I was talking this through with one of the people and asking, you know, so what's going on here? Really, what is this about? And I remember this person looked at me with incredulity as though it should be obvious to anyone.

17:46And this person said she hates his fucking guts. And then at that moment you go, oh my God, but could this be anything else other than that? Yeah. Well, no, I didn't think it in the beginning. I mean, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, you know, in 2005 when The Apprentice started, I was at CNBC. I used to go to the parties and it looked like they did have a relationship, but I think something did happen in the ensuing years. What do you think? Yeah, no. Well, I think, you know, I mean, and you can imagine what happened in addition to Stormy Daniels. There was, you know, I don't think that the presidency, I mean, as I, you know, talk about in my in my first book, you know, he he really did not expect to win and she was resistant and he assured her no chance we're going to win this.

18:36And then I think I think this has all been all, you know, Washington, him in this in the further exaggeration of his Trump persona has been difficult to handle. Yeah, I just I'm blown away by the reporting and I'm blown away by the detail that you've gotten. And I've theorized something I want to test on you. No, nobody likes him. Nobody likes him. The kids don't like him. The wife doesn't like him. The staff doesn't like him. I think only you and I get this. Am I wrong in saying that, sir? No, I mean, other than the people who don't know him out in the great land who vote for him, to know him is to really, really not like him, to dislike him actually intensely, for him to inhabit you in a way that is really, really toxic.

19:31Which is one of the reasons, by the way, all of these people talk to me and continue to talk to me. You need an outlet when you feel that. Right. Now, you know, and it's this thing, you know, politics, you know, and these are people, you know, the bulk of them who have made political or many of them who have made political careers. And in a way, they're used to people who are working for people who are extremely difficult. But I think I think Trump surpasses that. Yeah. So I've never met anybody that likes him. And I talk to everybody like you do. And they put up with him and they tolerate him and they work around him and they go into spiritual healing, try to heal themselves and all this sort of nonsense.

20:14But there's a high level of toxicity in his midst. And yet he still attracts these people. You explain that. But what is the ingredient? What am I searching for, sir? You have it a little bit in your book, but I'm going to try to explain it this way. He's disliked. He's disliked by the people that are closest to him, yet there's some type of a magical ingredient that he has where he's a progenic political figure. We have to accept he's one of the more significant political figures of our life because he's been with us now for 12 years. is almost like an FDR shadow. Totally. And that is part of the thing.

20:56It is politics. What is the thing you value most in politics? It is winning. And right now we have a pretty extraordinary record of him winning. But there's another thing, and it's a personal thing. And I've seen him in the room do this. There's this constant pairing of punishment and reward, which makes people crazy and they don't know what to do. And one of his forms in almost everything he does is about dominance and submission. And it's a way that he achieves this. And people come to hate him for this, but it also is very, very effective of bringing people to heal, bringing people into your corner, getting them to do things that they would not otherwise do.

21:53You know, the Michael Cohen example and all of that testimony was, I can't think of anything that could be more vivid to that point in experience. The spirit of innovation is deeply ingrained in America, and Google is helping Americans innovate in ways both big and small. From improving emergency response times to protecting against cyber attacks, local, state, and federal governments are innovating with Google AI. This is a new era of American innovation. Find out more at g.co slash American Innovation. Hey, business owners. We know you know the importance of maximizing every dollar. With the Delta Sky Miles Reserve Business American Express card, you can make your expenses work just as hard as you.

22:39From afternoon coffee runs to stocking office supplies and even team dinners, you can earn miles on all your business expenses. Plus, you can earn 125 ,000 bonus miles for a limited time through October 29th. The Delta Sky Miles Reserve Business Card. If you travel, you know. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply. Offer ends October 29th, 2025. Elon Musk makes it, Michael. Nobody makes it. Nobody. Yeah. So it's just a matter of time. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, yeah, the Elon thing, remember, so Steve Bannon made it for six months. And Steve Bannon was in a way in the Elon position, the cover of Time magazine, all of that kind of thing.

23:20And then he went six months and then he was out. Now, the question is, what does Elon want out of this? What does he hope he can achieve? I mean, he must have some idea that this is going to come to tears at some point. I don't know. Maybe he's hoping that Trump will die before it comes to that. And that will – I don't know. Guys like Trump don't die, though, Michael. I think you know that, and I know that. He knows the good die young, Michael. I want to tie it to one of your last books, one that we talked about, and that's Murdoch. Tell us the relationship that you feel that, Donald, I saw Rupert in the Oval Office with Larry Ellison a few weeks back.

24:10What's the relationship with Trump, Fox News, and the Murdochs? Okay. Well, it's very complicated. Rupert hates Donald Trump. I mean, I've spoken long before the presidency was even on the horizon for Trump. by Rupert used to talk about him and ridicule him. You know, and Rupert lived in a Trump building for a period when his big apartment on Fifth Avenue was being renovated. And Jared and Ivanka lived in that building. And he became friends with Jared and Ivanka or his then wife, Wendy, really befriended them. But he got to know, you know, Trump was around. Here, I'll give you a story that once I was interviewing Rupert, we were having coffee at his apartment in this building, spoke for whatever, an hour, and then we left together and came down, got on the elevator, came down.

25:11Midway, it stops, doors open, and Donald Trump gets on. And Rupert, who is an incredible mumbler and talks into his arm, said something, some pleasantry, I suppose. And then Trump turned to me and says, do you ever understand what he's saying? So, but clearly, you know, over the past, you know, since January 6th, you know, Rupert Murdoch set out to use Fox as the means with which to deprive Trump of any possibility of a further political career, really being one of the key people in the invention of the Ron DeSantis bubble. And obviously, all of that failed. It turns out that one would have thought that Trump needed Fox.

26:04It turns out Trump is bigger than Fox, that Fox needs Trump. And Rupert, who is always Mr. Ultimately RealPolitik, came to Jesus, really. And I remember somebody told me, described the moment that Trump was in his office behind the desk, the phone rings, and he takes a call. And then he comes outside and says to everybody, well, you'll never believe that was Rupert. And somebody in the outer office says involuntarily, Murdoch? They couldn't believe that this finally, the flaw had finally, the thaw had finally happened. And yeah. Yeah. Capitulation. Capitulation. All right. I got you for five more minutes and we'll talk quickly.

26:51Give me 30 seconds on Putin. What's the deal there? You know, what is the deal? It's some deal. It's either he does have something on Donald Trump or whoever Putin is, whatever he has succeeded at stealing billions of dollars and being the autocrat of our time is weirdly appealing to, weirdly, is directly appealing to Donald Trump. Right. But prima facie, it feels like it's more than any of us can figure out. Yeah, no. I mean, Steve Bannon always used to say that there must be something there. Right. We couldn't figure it out. I mean, I talked to Steve about it. I talked to McMaster. We couldn't figure it out.

27:36All right. I've got five words. I'm going to read you these five words. I do this with every one of my authors. I'm going to say the word, you're going to say one or two sentences about the word. If I say the word or the concept MAGA, what does this mean to you? What's your reaction to that? It's the Trump world and the Trump reality. Yeah. And it's basically a hijacking of the former Republican party, right? It's a decapitation of that party. It's really that party now, right? Okay. I say Trump world. What do you say? that closed circle that that he's in the middle of you know somebody once said to me that there's no reality for trump outside of the sound of his own voice um and that is that world that he that he inhabits you know in in my book i write about these two particular yes people boris epstein and in this woman natalie harp so he reinforces this this world so it's a very very very circumscribed the world.

28:38Nothing much gets in. No new information gets in. Which was true in reality. Television was true in real estate and is actually also true in politics. Okay. Three more words. J.D. Vance. I say J.D. Vance, you think what? You know, his lackey, just another person who has drunk the Kool-Aid and that will poison him sooner or later. So I think J.D. Vance ends up in the wood chipper, never makes it to the presidency. He's the Mike Pence of this situation. Anyone in the vice president, I mean, he doesn't want a vice president. I mean, in the book, I quote him as saying to somebody, why do I need a vice president?

29:17Right. Okay. Two more. Elon Musk? Steve Bannon. Okay. Last word. I'm going to give you the last word. Donald Trump. Well, you know, the most extraordinary figure of our time, for better or worse. He tries to stay. It's January, 2029. He tries to stay? He'll try to stay, but only on a performative basis. He will milk every headline he can milk because that's what he does. That's what he thrives on. That's how he survives. But he's gone on the 20th of January. He's gone, yes. On the 29th. Oh, yes. And probably grateful to be gone, by the way. Tell me why. I don't really think he likes being president.

30:07I think actually that his life in Mar-a-Lago these last number of years was much, much more pleasant to him, much more satisfying. You know, to go through the campaign, a presidential campaign, an activity that requires superhuman attention, and to begin every day by playing 18 holes of golf, that's unique. Yeah. I agree with you, by the way. He likes the attention, and if he can make some money off of it, money and attention are the two things in the reptilian brain. It's really nothing else. I know he doesn't like the pomp and circumstance of the presidency in terms of things that he has to do as president.