Trump's Toxic Masculinity with Nina Burleigh

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1:29Hello, I'm Anthony Scaramucci and this is Open Book, where I talk with some of the brightest minds out there about everything surrounding the written word, from authors and historians to figures in entertainment, neuroscientists, political activists, and of course, Wall Street. Sorry, I can't resist. Before we get into today's episode, if you haven't already, please hit follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a review. We all love a review, even the bad ones. I want to hear the parts you're enjoying or how we can do better. You know, I can roll with the punches, so let me know.

2:03Anyways, let's get to it.

2:13There was a lot of ground to cover with my guest today, Nina Burleigh, from the flood of disinformation and Trump's toxic masculinity to the divide in voting patterns and gender dynamics. The clock is ticking and election day is upon us. So let's get into it.

2:36Joining us now on Open Book is Nina Burleigh. She's a bestselling author and investigative journalist. A couple of books, Zero Visibility Possible and The Trump Women, among others. OK, so there's a lot to talk about with you. And OK, who's going to win the election? Let's start there. Oh, you know, my gut is not feeling good about it, but my brain is holding out for believing in our fellow Americans that there are more of us than them. Okay, so you're in my camp then. So you are a Harris supporter, but you're looking around at some of your friends that are not our supporters and you're saying, okay, there may be more of them than us.

3:21But then you're saying maybe not, right? Yeah. I mean, you. And again, it doesn't matter because it's the swing stays. Right, Neen? So, you know. Yeah. I mean, I'm right here. I'm in New York State. But I'm looking out the window at Pennsylvania. I'm right on the Delaware River. And so I go over there. I bike over there all the time because they don't maintain their roads as well as we do. So it's easier to. There are not so many cars. And so many of those little rural roads are just Trump sign after Trump sign. I don't have as many friends in the party as you do. But I do have acquaintances up here and I have a conservative, I would say, a pen pal out in Oklahoma who I've become friendly with over the years.

4:02And I get updates from him. He doesn't like Trump, but he's absolutely going to vote for him. And I get updates from him regularly now about, you know, the way that they reinvent history when they talk about, you know, oh, Trump is a fascist. Well, Truman called Dewey a fascist or Harris is using joy as a logo or the Harris fans are using joy as a logo. Well, look here. The Nazis used joy as a logo in Germany. You know what I mean? So it's just this constant whataboutism and there's always an answer to the allegations. And then, you know, what we saw last night was, you know, it's always with them.

4:48Well, gosh, can't you take a joke? I mean, come on. What we saw last night you're referring to is the Madison Square Garden rally, where among other things that were said that Puerto Rico was an island, floating island of garbage is basically what the comedian said. But it felt like in the arena people laughed, but it felt like outside of the arena didn't go over well, so much so that the Trump campaign had to retract it and reemphasize Donald Trump's support and blah, blah, blah. But, you know, he creates that, right? He creates space for people to really show you their true colors. And so I guess one has to wonder, you know, if he gets in, right?

5:30I mean, you've got billionaires that are cowering to him, right? They're telling their newspapers that they own they can't write endorsements. You've got somebody that owns formerly known as Twitter, no problem. It's become a MAGA stream. So I don't know, what does that say to you about the society we're living in right now, Neen? Well, I mean, you know, I saw in my book, the novel that you mentioned, I'm a nonfiction writer. So I've written many, many nonfiction books. I've been covering politics for many years, but I'm an English major and I always wanted to write fiction. I read literature all the time.

6:02And I wrote this novel. It's very short. I planned it as a part of a trilogy. And it's about disinformation and what happens to people when they start to be flooded with bullshit. it. And it opens with the Vegas shooting, which is one of the, you know, many, many, many horrible, hideous tragedies with too many guns in this country, but it's the worst mass shooting in America. And it's hardly ever discussed anymore, right? Because we don't like, we're becoming immune and inured to this kind of violence. So, but it has provoked a ton of conspiracy theories on the right. And so the book is really about a few people in the mainstream legacy dying media trying to figure out what happened.

6:51And it's fictionalized from there forward. And, you know, I was trying to sort of investigate and talk about what happens when, you know, when the Steve Bannon, I would say a pretty brilliant strategy of flooding the zone with shit. What happens to people in a society which is flooded with shit, with bullshit. And the amount of disinformation that we become used to in this country that, you know, people after the hurricane, you know, talking about, well, FEMA is going to come and get your house or, gee, you know, Biden administration and NOAA or NASA, they created this hurricane. It's not climate change.

7:34I mean, I've got climate change scientists who say, hey, they're almost getting it. They're almost getting that this is man-made, but they've just taken like two steps farther, right? So what happens to a society when there is no longer this kind of central square where everybody kind of agrees that, well, you know, we disagree with each other, but the color red is red. And other people are like, no, but I saw, you know, that's great, right? So when you have no longer got an agreed upon reality, what happens to people. And that's what the novel is really about. It's just about a very small slice of media people trying to work through a flood of conspiracy theories.

8:17And I think it's very relevant to what we've been dealing with here for the last eight years. I don't know about you, but I mean, it may have been already started when Bush and W and Karl Rove were doing their alternate reality, or I can't remember what the term was that one of their faith leaders, maybe it was Rove, said to that journalist, Ron Susskind, I can't remember the term, but it was basically, look, some people believe this and that, you know, it may not be true. It may not be scientifically factual, but we have to give them their due. And that's their alternate reality. That started then.

8:56I mean, it's, and now we're into where the Supreme Court has actually in the Hobby Lobby case, literally legalized, put into the law that people can, that basically privileges faith over science. If you believe that a certain medication does something to you that it actually doesn't, that's okay, you know, because that's what you believe, right? And, you know, that's where you get Bobby Kennedy, who was also at the Madison Square Garden gathering last night. So a couple of things. So obviously the book is awesome because it's a allegory based on truth. So it's a fiction, but it's a sort of a nonfiction of what's really going on, right?

9:40It's almost like historical fiction at some point. But my thing, and I just want to test this on you and get your reaction. My thing is it's always been out there, but it's now been amplified and exaggerated by social media. So we've, we had wartime propaganda in World War II. We had disinformation that the U.S. put out. We were dehumanizing Japanese and we were dehumanizing Germans and we were explaining to the American people our virtues versus their vices. And, you know, Himmler was doing this and Goebbels was doing this for Hitler. And so we've always had levels of disinformation. We've always had good and bad levels of it.

10:20But am I wrong to think that it's gotten completely amplified now? And I'll just tell this quick story. Henry Luce, the founder of Time Magazine, he interviewed Joe Stalin in the 1930s. And Stalin said, you know, I'm going to destroy the United States. He said, well, how are you going to do that? He said, well, you guys are a mongrel nation. You've got a lot of different ethnic backgrounds there. We're going to insert a tremendous amount of disinformation inside the country, and we're going to destroy you from within. But what he got wrong is he didn't have the vehicle to do that need, right? But Donald Trump is this useful idiot for Putin, and they've dumped all of that GRU stuff that Joe Stalin was talking about 100 years ago into the system.

11:00Okay, so what did I get wrong there? Because it ties back to your book. Well, I don't think, the only thing that I would disagree with is that I don't think that it's just the Russians. I don't think this is GRU, right? I mean, I'm with like Craig Unger and, you know, other friends of mine who are down with the Russians are engaged in meddling in our society big time, especially using digital media, social media and the Internet. But I also think that there are traits in our own country that make us particularly susceptible to these things. And part of it is that we're a heterogeneous society and that, you know, that's the big problem with Trump, that, you know, we're a heterogeneous society.

11:45And for him to ride down that escalator in the summer of 15 and just out of the blue, I still remember where I was when I heard him saying, it's Mexican rapists that are causing your problems. I can still remember that. I'm thinking, did I miss like a news story about a Mexican rapist? Like, what is he talking about? Right. And now we're eight or nine years down the road from that. We're a heterogeneous society. The country depends on people trusting each other. Democracy depends on trust. It doesn't work. I mean, people have done studies on this, the Norwegians. It works in Norway because everybody's white and everybody trusts each other.

12:21This is a heterogeneous society. And when you start poking those differences and provoking divisiveness between subgroups, and it becomes a pillar of your ideology or your political movement, then you got a problem. This country depends on the kind of trust that he is literally, he and his people are literally taking aim at. And it's all scapegoating, right? And so I don't think that it's 100 % GRU Russian stuff. I don't think Stephen Miller is a Russian agent. I think he's just a horrible, you know, as somebody said on Twitter the other day, he's like literally the DNA reincarnation of Goebbels.

13:11I mean, he just looks like him. He actually looks like Nosferatu. But like, to actually come out and be, you know, to say to the American people, look, all your problems, which we do have a lot of problems. There did need to be some kind of a revolt and a revolution against certain things that are going on here that we see now coming out of the right. But to blame all the problems, to scapegoat onto people who are these beleaguered, tired people coming up here who are literally going to ride bikes around New York City in any weather, delivering food to you, or working all night at a fricking dishwashing in a restaurant in New York, washing dishes or selling candy bars on the subway to people who no longer carry cash.

13:58And that's who you're going to blame for your problems because you're feeling disgruntled and jealous about what, you know, how other, you know, billionaires have all the money or, you know, you don't live like them or you can't afford a Tesla or, you know, you don't like it that you can't call people names that your granddaddy used to call people who weren't white, that you don't like that you can't do that anymore. You don't like that there are more women in college than you because you didn't study enough or you didn't get through school right. You know, all of these grievances, well, let's just put them all on these brown people and these newcomers instead of saying, let's fix some of the problems here.

14:37You know, let's make sure that everybody's got healthcare. Pretty simple thing, actually. What did they do with ACA, right? What did they do? 40 or 50 lawsuits. Some of those people are still in the house. Most of them. What, for what? How much money are they saving? To take your, just to give the society, give people some relief. You know, again, all those people over in Pennsylvania, I'm looking out the window at that ridge where they've got their signs up. They don't have dental care. The doctors are few and far between. It costs a lot of money. You know, basic needs. This country is rich enough to provide people with medical care.

15:16And that would take a lot of the stress and strain off people, right? So anyway, I can go on forever, Anthony. No, I mean, no, I'm listening because it's legit. You know, weave into your narrative the piece that you wrote about Trump and toxic masculinity, okay? Because to me, bravery and strength is not bullying. I find that that's not being an alpha male or whatever that term means. It's taking care of people and being willing to help people and being subtle with your life is more strength than bullying and bravado and all of this sort of nonsense. Tell us about that and gender playing a big role in this election.

16:07Yeah. Well, I mean, everybody knows this is the most gendered, gender separated election in, in history, I think, um, where, you know, women are voting for Paris and men are voting for Trump and by huge numbers, there's a divide. And well, I mean, there's some damn good reasons for that. I mean, he, he got elected, um, by cynically taking, um, you know, getting prayed over. He's such a germaphobe. I love those pictures of him where they've got their hands on him and he's just like cringing. They're praying over it. But yeah, he gets elected and he carries through with the promise and he gets those judges in and then they outlaw abortion and basic female reproductive care.

16:54And now you've got women all over in these states. I mean, I've been doing research down in Texas, you've got to drive to 11 hours one way to get the surgical procedure and then drive back. Like how, like the cruelty of it is nuts. And this is happening. And if you get, you know, if you start to have a problem and you go to the hospital, if you've taken those pills, that that's the only way you can get an abortion down there without doing the 11 hour drive there, you're doing that in your house. And you know what, when I was 20 years old, and if I took one of those pills and the things that happened to your body, when you take those things, you want to be like able to talk to a doctor.

17:30It's a scary thing. And they're sitting there told the, well, no, don't go to the emergency room because if you go to the emergency room, you better not tell them what you did. It's insane. It's complete lunacy. So, and it's cruel and, and it's, it's demoralizing and it's degrading women. And so what's happened is that kind of behavior, it's 21 States now, right? A lot of American women are in this situation. And that has a knock on effect on women and girls in society culturally. So that opens the door to, you know, the Andrew Tates and the Jordan Petersons and the Donald Trumps who basically are coming out of this incredibly.

18:08I don't want to use the word misogynistic, but it's it's like it's a way of looking at women. It is so degrading and and limiting women's reproductive care. And I think the next thing they're going to do is take away, you know, contraception. That is opening the door to this kind of really, really retrograde situation for American women. And it's obvious why women would vote for Harris and not him. Now, let's just remember, not all women are voting for Harris. Some of them are voting for Trump. And I actually, in my column last week, interviewed Celinda Lake, who's a really interesting, knowledgeable expert on women's political leanings in the United States.

18:52And I asked her, you know, what's the deal? Like, people are always wondering, like, why are women, white women, there's a certain segment of white women that have voted for Trump. What are they doing? And she said, well, there's still, there are a couple of things. There's still women out there who will say, well, first of all, they don't want conflict with the husbands. And the husbands are voting for Trump. So they just sort of capitulate and they say, well, well, you know, if the pollster calls, they'll say there's this presumption that the man has more information. So they'll say to the pollster, well, I don't know anything about politics.

19:24Talk to my husband. And it's hard for me to imagine that kind of person because I literally live in this community where we spend all of our dinners and social events with other people talking about politics. That's another thing. And I'm sure you do, too, Anthony. So it's really hard to imagine who these people are, but they're out there. There are a lot of them. There are fellow Americans and they aren't sitting around talking about this stuff 24-7. They're not paying attention. That's who is the undecided voter. And so what's fascinating, I'm getting way off the topic here, but let's get back to the women thing.

19:59What's interesting about the women thing is that - You're not off topic. You're explaining something that everybody's trying to figure out. And by the way, yes, there are low information voters that are not going to listen to you. You're in my podcast. I understand that. But there are curious people that are trying to understand this. There are students of history that are trying to understand why Jeff Bezos would quake in front of a leader like Donald Trump. This toxic masculinity, which you find offensive, I find offensive. Is it working for Trump? Because he's got Elon Musk, roof, roof. He's got Jeff Bezos, roof, roof.

20:38I mean, you know, is it working? I like that roof, roof, that puppy dog. Did you see Elon at the, behind the podium yesterday? So bad for him in some ways. I feel like he's got like an, as smart as he is and as rich as he is, I think there's like a little bit of a programming chip off related to emotional intelligence and actually empathy for other people. So A lot of those Silicon Valley guys do have that problem. Sorry to say. I'm going with forgivable on him. Bezos is definitely, in my mind, not a forgivable thing, offensible, but whatever. I mean, look, I mean, look, I told somebody today, if you're a billionaire, you're rational and you're ruthless.

21:16So if you kowtow to Trump, you're protected if he gets elected. And if you kowtow to Trump and she gets elected, she's an abider to the system. So she's not coming after you. Exactly. You know what I mean? And so they're rational. They're not. None of them are Churchillian where they're going to call him out on his nonsense. You know what I mean? You don't get to be a billionaire being Churchillian. Right. It's a great point. Yeah. Right. It's a great point. Well, go ahead. Keep going. I'm sorry to interrupt. But I mean, is it working? Is the toxic masculinity working for this man? I think it is absolutely working.

21:48I mean, look at the younger men. I mean, there's a whole daily podcast on this a few days ago with the women and young women and young men. And these younger men are really going all in for him. You know, the Gen Z or, you know, late, early, what do you call it? Late millennial. Yeah. The younger men, 20 somethings are like, you know, they're attracted to this again, because the problems that they're facing, if you did, they're all, you know, non-college educated are systemic with our economy and, and the problems have not been addressed. So let's blame the women and blame the girls, you know, that's because the girls, the women don't want to have babies with you or they don't want to buy a house with you.

22:28They won't marry you and you can't afford a house. So blame them. And it's working. And I think also on the world stage, I think about this a lot because Trump, some of the things he says about Harris are kind of, well, our enemies won't respect her. Remember in the beginning and he said, and you know why, remember that he's they're not going to respect her and you know why and and he wouldn't you know well like i can't say it and you know why and it's sort of this assumption that like you have to be a bully you have to be like the biggest lie lion in the in the on the belt or have the biggest dick or whatever and that that's what's that's what you know putin and and the saudis and and and you know, and Kim Jong-un, you know, that because they're like that, which we know they are, Putin is for sure, that they're not going to respect a Harris because she's not that person.

23:28She's not that. But, you know, just to remember, like, a lot of countries and macho countries in South America have had female presidents. I mean, Italy right now has a female leader, right? Germany, Angela Merkel was one of the great leaders of that era. I mean, NATO, the UK, British, Britain has had female leaders. What's wrong with us? You know, and I think that it's, yes, it plays, it does work for him. I think it does work for him. And I think that, you know, we've got a long way to go, especially if we can become a country where you can legislate into women's private medical care. Like what they've done here is is just so whack, you know, and I'm going to say as an aside, I did a big piece for New York Magazine recently on Opus Dei Catholicism, that this sect that weirdly, Anthony, has been extremely effective in Washington.

24:28They sent some of their people in there around the early 90s and they converted like Gingrich and Larry Kudlow and, you know, J.D. Vance is all mobbed up with these people and Alito and, you know, Leonard Leo. They're all tied in with this hard, right Catholic. I mean, I have no problem with Catholics. And most of my friends, when I was growing up, I grew up around Catholics in the Midwest. Most American Catholics are not down with this program. These people are hardcore extremist, like they want to go back to medieval era, monarchy, papal states. It's absolutely nuts. And that's where J.D. Vance comes in.

25:12And J.D. Vance is tied in with these people who are literally starting to say the stuff that you would never have thought in my lifetime. You know, I mean, again, my whole lifetime has been spent with legal abortion being legal. Nobody would say, oh, you know what? Maybe American women shouldn't vote. You know, the single cat ladies, they're not really contributing to society because they didn't make any babies. So maybe they shouldn't vote. And those are people that J.D. Vance is hanging out with. Well, let me go to Joe Rogan for a second because it's in the category. you. Now, I listen to Joe, and I'm going to share with you my opinion, but I don't want it to color yours, okay?

25:52I find what Joe has built to be an incredible franchise, and if you actually listen, okay, he's an inquisitive guy, and he gives you space. He could disagree with you. You have space on his podcast. He doesn't have to be intellectually in sync with you to go on his podcast. I thought it was a mistake that Vice President Harris did not take up his invitation because, you know, I listened to the Rogan podcast with Trump and even Joe was having a hard time following what he was saying. I mean, I saw that three hours. Yeah. I was like, okay, your weave is getting a little bit too wide. Don't bring it back in.