Why Great Teams Fail And How The Yankees Keep Winning - Andy Martino

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1:18American Express Business Platinum. There's nothing like it. Terms apply. Learn more at AmericanExpress.com slash business dash platinum. What happens to the human being that makes the human being feel romantically linked to baseball? There's just something aesthetically beautiful about it. And there's something about the flight of the ball in the air against the night sky. There is a thrill to that. I also think on another level that's not as romantic, but which keeps our interest, is that there's always more happening on the field that we don't understand than that when we do understand. There's always more to learn.

1:50And I have access to these people every day. But if I can talk to a Garrett Cole or Francisco Lindor about what they do, They're going to say things that I have no idea what they're talking about, and I have to go back and study and learn more. There's so much going on. It's such a complex game that it keeps your intellectual engagement, too. And again, there's just a beauty to it. I don't know if you know Jeffrey Loria. About 10 years ago, I, through a mutual friend, was watching a game with him in his seats behind the Marlins dugout at Citi Field about a decade ago. And it's a similar play. There was a fly ball left field, but this one was an F7.

2:20It died on the track. And he looks over to me and the other person we were with with, like, misty eyes, and just says, it's a beautiful game, isn't it? And I thought, boy, if someone in his 70s who's at the top of the business side of this can still feel that way, it must be a pretty profound feeling. So joining us now on Open Book is Andy Martino. He's an award-winning journalist covering Major League Baseball for over a decade, even though he looks 13 years old. Martino, I got to tell you, you look great. Okay, I need your skincare product regime. Well, thank you. I'm 43. All right, well, you're looking great.

2:54Okay, you're looking at about 13. Okay, so the Yankee way, the untold inside story of the Brian Cashman era. And I consider Brian Cashman a good friend of mine, actually. My wife and I love Brian Cashman. Every time I make my way to the stadium, I try to hang out with him. Full disclosure, I'm also very good friends with Chris Ahmad, who I think you know. Dr. Ahmad has been their doctor for many years. And I'm a Mets fan, but I am a Yankee lover. I'm not an envious. I am envious. Let me restate that. I'm not a Yankee hater. I do have tremendous amounts of Yankee envy, particularly last night when I'm watching them play.

3:40They're still the U.S. Steel of baseball. Now, for my young listeners, U.S. Steel was one of the greatest corporations in American history in the mid-50s. The Yankees were winning one championship after the next, and they were the U.S. Steel, or maybe they're the Google of baseball today. Pick the greatest company. They're the company. And you have done a brilliant job in this book, by the way, of explaining what the Yankee way is, what the culture is. but before we get there Andy I want you to tell us why this love affair with sports and why this love affair with baseball for Andy Martino well thank you for the compliments thank you for having me that's an interesting question with a lot of depth you know I remember uh being nine years old watching the 1989 World Series that battle the Bay A's Giants that was disrupted by the earthquake and that was the age where there was something about being allowed to stay up late enough to watch a World Series game, being alone in the living room, taking it in.

4:45It's just in that inexplicable way of the things that we're passionate about. It just got in my bones. And I still feel that way. When I was at Yankees Dodgers last night, and I still felt romantic about it. And then when I was much older, trying to become a writer, I drifted toward this being the topic, the only topic that I could write about well. I mean, if I could write about something this effectively with about something with a broader audience, whether it's the NFL or politics or what have you, I maybe would. But this is just the thing that I feel like I understand and am passionate about the most.

5:21And it's been that way since I was nine years old, really. In that way, it's sort of mysterious, the things we gravitate to, but it's a strong feeling. So you said romantic. And if you love baseball, that word resonates. It certainly resonates with a man like me. And so what is it? I can't figure it out myself, but I'm addicted to baseball. If I ever retired, I'd want to go to a hundred games. I have it all planned out. It would be 30 different ballparks, three games each in each ballpark. And then obviously the last game at Yankee Stadium, the Cathedral of Baseball. But why? What happens to the human being that makes the human being feel romantically linked to baseball.

6:07Well, there's a pastoral aspect that's been talked about a lot, right? And I also think there's just something aesthetically beautiful about it. Judge's home run, last time we were speaking on Monday, last night was Sunday Night Baseball. Judge hits a home, a towering home run in the eighth inning to left field. And there's something about the flight of the ball in the air against the night sky. I know it's sort of, this would be purple prose if I were to write it down. But since you're asking, there is a thrill to that. I also think on another level that's not as romantic, but which keeps our interest is that there's always more happening on the field that we don't understand than that.

6:39When we do understand, there's always more to learn. And I have access to these people every day. But if I can talk to a Garrett Cole or Francisco Lindor or whoever else about what they do, they're going to say things that I have no idea what they're talking about. And I have to go back and study and learn more. There's so much going on. It's such a complex game that it keeps your intellectual engagement, too. And again, there's just a beauty to it. I don't know if you know Jeffrey Loria or if you guys have run in the same circles at all. So I was about 10 years ago. I, through a mutual friend, was watching.

7:09You know what romantic he is about baseball, if you know him. He's the owner of the Marlins. He was the owner of the Marlins at the time. And I was watching a game with him in his seats behind the Marlins dugout at Citi Field, maybe about a decade ago. And it's a similar play. There's a fly ball left field, but this one was an F7. It died on the track. and he looks over to me and the other person we were with and with like misty eyes and just says that's a beautiful game isn't it and i thought boy if someone in his 70s who's at the top of the business side of this can still feel that way it must be a pretty profound feeling yeah well i listen i agree with you i'm a diehard fan i owned a piece of the mets for many years i ended up having a sell to one of my very close friends steve cohen i went to city field we almost got no hit i think by the braves a few weeks ago yeah i was there and uh and uh jd martinez i've hit the home run thank god and the two outs in the bottom of the ninth but but i was i was in steve's box with him it's quite a box quite a box uh probably the nicest in the in the majors actually but and by the way steinburner's box very nice but it's just a different feel from a aesthetic point of view.

8:15But my thing about it, I guess the reason I'm bringing it up in this way is the inside information. Who's feeling what and why. Why the pitcher is pitching off of one part of the rubber versus another part of the rubber, depending on who he's pitching to. The scouting report on the hitters, where the pitcher knows is the weak spot for that hitter. And that weak spot could change depending on if that hitter streaking or not streaking. And you and I could have a in-depth technical discussion about baseball that could last six hours, and it could be related to one inning of the game, positions of the players in the field.

8:58You know, are you going to hold the runner or are you going to let him steal? You know, all the different things that go into this. And so for me, I have this love affair with baseball, which is why I was gravitated towards your book. I read your book in one sitting. I gave it to my trainer who reached out to you on Twitter, and you were nice enough to - Oh, yeah. I didn't realize that. Yeah, that was my trainer, Ray Salomon. And actually, if I'm being totally with no fake news, I think he was reading it simultaneously to me. I suggested it to him, and then he told me that he reached out to you on Twitter, which gave me the idea to reach out to you on Twitter.

9:39Okay. Okay. So let's go to Brian Cashman for a second. Okay. You start out first page of the book, the story that is always told about the Yankees is wrong. And then you say, well, why don't I try to get it right? Okay. So what was wrong? You obviously got it right in this book, but let's go to what was wrong first. And then let's talk about the Yankee way. Yep. Well, that's obviously the kind of statement that that sends off alarm bells in a reporter journalist brain right well wrong well what's right what do you think is right let's dig into that and brian as you know since you know him has great stories and insights that he shares off the record uh and certain reporters he's known for a long time are no different uh and that's one of the things he would always say and you always want to learn more about that and he wasn't always necessarily in the mood to elaborate, but I ultimately got to a straight answer for that in the reporting of this book, which is when he says wrong, he means that he feels like the wrong people have gotten all the credit for all the Yankee success, probably in particular the Yankee dynasty, and that very important people have been left out.

10:50Anytime there's a documentary or a telling or what have you about the Yankee dynasty, it's Joe Torre, Derek Jeter, the Core Four, maybe G. Michael, the legendary GM and scout. And Cashman feels that Michael deserves a lot of credit, but there's a whole group of people that were gone by the time the dynasty really started. Bill Livesey, who was a player development executive and scout who in the 70s and 80s basically invented the Yankee way. And as you said, we'll get into what that is on a more technical level, I'm sure, in a bit. But somebody who really invented the philosophies that the Yankees still go by and build their dynasty on.

11:30There was Buck Showalter, who is a known name in baseball, of course, but who was the manager that got them right to the doorstep. He was gone after the 1995 season. And there were a few others who Cashman just believes don't get enough credit when a few people came in when they were ready to win and enjoyed the fruits of it. One of the most surprising things that Cashman said to me in our many interviews for this book was when he said, you know, the beginning of the end of the Yankee dynasty came in the year 1995, which is a pretty surprising year to choose when you think they hadn't won their first championship of that run yet.

12:04But his point was the people that I mentioned were all fired, demoted, sent elsewhere or whatever on George Steinbrenner's whims by the 96 championship. And they weren't able to enjoy what they had built firsthand. And the Cashman at that point, he knew it was only a matter of time until things weren't as good with the Yankee dynasty, because the people who built it, the talent who built it in the front office, the scouts, managers, coaches were gone. So that's what he meant by wrong. That story is never acknowledged. Okay, well, you're fairly in-depth about it. And so let me start with this. George Steinbrenner, the very famous owner of the Yankees, is banned from baseball.

12:45Did that help or hurt the Yankees in the Yankee way? It certainly helped. And this is probably the part of the story that's been told prior to my book coming out. and that Gene Michael was then able to hold on to players like Bernie Williams, Andy Pettit, Mariano Rivera, who Steinbrenner likely would have traded and, in fact, tried to get Bernie Williams traded many times. And the Yankees had the chance to do baseball operations. You know, George Steinbrenner was a great recruiter. He was a great closer of deals. He's obviously not without his attributes that helped him win championships. But if you look at Yankee myth versus Yankee reality, he's reputed to have built the 70s dynasty, He saved it from the CBS ownership.

13:26But a look at how those rosters were built show that he inherited Greg Nettles, Ron Guidry, Thurman Munson. And to his credit, he recruited Reggie Jackson, a catfish hunter, to finish it off. That's fine. In the 90s, he's suspended. Again, baseball ops can do his thing. They can hold on to the prospects that Gene Michael and his people believe are worth holding on to. And then Steinbrenner comes back. And maybe he did have a quality where he could put his foot on the gas where it was time to win now. And that was what he contributed tonally in the organization. But frankly, the Yankees built both of those winning eras under Steinbrenner's watch when he was not there, be it suspension or that he hadn't arrived on the scene yet.

14:04Okay, so I have a theory that I want to test on you and I want you to react to it. This is just my observation of being a professional sports league fan for 55 of the 60 years that I've been on the planet. a good sports owner lets the operations people run the sports team okay bob craft is an example of that okay anywhere where lou lamorello went who was a phenomenal gm of hockey you let him run the team he'll get you to the playoffs and probably build you a stanley cup owners that get involved in the process. That would include some of our New York owners, which I won't name any of them because I like going into these places.

14:50I don't need my face recognized. I understand. Okay. And so you've got meddling owners. And so the question then is, am I right about that? I think it's an excellent point. I think obviously these management dynamics are somewhat situational and that steve cohen who we both know is smart enough to be asking some of the right questions of his people and probably contributing in a positive way but with david sterns in place and scott havens in business ops less public cohen steve is taking a step back uh from micromanaging so well i i mean look i'm close to steve and i would say this to you my observation that he's totally like that and maybe he wasn't like at day one right he's trying to find the right people he's got the right people now that's right and his attitude is you got this i'm gonna watch the team you need my advice or help i'll i help you but you got to run it the same way he let somebody run a pnl inside of his organization you know i agree with you i've seen that happen too uh as he now feels like he has the right people in place and that supports your theory uh that micromanaging from an ownership level is not the way but like i said with steve he has things he can contribute because he's such a quick study.

16:08George Steinbrenner had that recruiting and charm that he can contribute. But by and large, I completely agree with you. And that's something that's forgotten about George Steinbrenner as he's been deified late in his life. The Yankees had a lot of success. And Hal Steinbrenner, I was surprised by this quote, told me in his book interview here, people forget that my father was not well-liked at all in the 80s, like at all. And that micromanaging was clearly the reason why. I mean, there's so many different examples of things that just wouldn't fly today in New York baseball. It's 1 a.m. in the press room at Yankee Stadium in 1980, whatever.

16:45And Gene Michaels, the manager, and George walks in and says, no, he's not. Sticks is scout. Clyde King is the manager. Billy Martin's going to the broadcast booth. And, you know, a month later, it was something different. It was just chaos because he was emotional about the result of a game. And he And he did that for decades. And that wasn't a positive for the Yankees. And I say that having not been there for a good chunk of it, because everyone I talked to who was there felt that it was a negative and not a positive toward Yankee success. And it went all the way into Cashman finally took over a full control of baseball ops after the 05 season.

17:18And a year prior to that, he had Vladimir Guerrero signed, who could have gone in the Hall of Fame in a Yankee hat. And George Strymer said, oh, no, I met with Gary Sheffield in Tampa. but we're doing Chef instead. It's like when Sheffield was a great player himself, but that's no way to run a business probably. So I do agree with you that those were not the best qualities of his stewardship of the team. And the executives that succeeded, like Gene Michael and Cashman, had to overcome that. Okay, so Cashman's got this interesting story you point out of the book. He serves as a bad boy to the Dodgers.

17:55He lost money gambling. his father becomes friends with steinbrenner tell us the rest of the story that's right so so john cashman brian's father was uh is a hall of famer in the harness racing world he was a really big deal there and he dealt with george steinbrenner in that capacity so that's how brian was able to get in the door he did lose money gambling down at one of um a track that that John Cashman and Steinbrenner both were involved in in South Florida. And he needs to borrow money from the PR guy at the track who says, hey, I can get you an internship with the Yankees. Cashman was a college baseball player at the time.

18:35So that's that is how he got in. And as soon as he was in the door, Brian Sabian, who himself was probably a future Hall of Fame executive, went to the Giants, won three championships at the time was a Yankees executive, said Cashman was a person from means. You knew that, but he didn't act like that. He was a look, listen, speak intern. And he took it all in and he was quiet and as inscrutable as he can be today. You know him. He can be very fun, but he can also be very, very guarded and observant. And from all accounts, he brought that into, as a 19 year old, he brought that into the Yankee offices and impressed them.

19:12And George Steinbrenner, for all his micromanagement, clearly saw in Cashman as he saw in Gene Michael. Of all the people that he hired and fired, those two were keepers. There was something about those guys. And he let them push back and he let them argue. And he didn't do that with everybody. And Cashman did impress not only the boss, but other baseball ops executives pretty much from the moment he walked in the door. I mean, he's a tremendous guy. He's a total professional. And I'll explain how a guy can work 25 years in the Yankee organization with the Steinbrenners. And obviously, George Steinberg dying in 2010, 14 short years ago.

19:55How did he not get fired over that period of time? Well, it's probably it's a great question or not quite, which he almost did a number of times. How do you survive, period? And I think part of it is what I just said in that George Steinbrenner and now how must have that instinct for, boy, this guy. I mean, they've had a winning record every year for 30 years. You better if you're going to blow that up, you better be really careful about that. And so it's the success. It's a results business. And they have been posting results year in and year out, even if their fans want another championship sooner.

20:32they have they've had a winning record for literally more than three decades straight. So that's a highlight of why he's been able to stay. But also he's agile. He doesn't really have like intellectually agile. He goes with the times. He's always recalibrating. You know, what is the industry doing? What do I want of that? What do I don't like of that? He's oh, it's a very dynamic process where there are executives where you can point to and say this is his philosophy. and he doesn't really have that so much as he's always intellectually curious about where things are going and he's always current and that helps and he's also just tough he's got a thick skin he i asked brian why he wanted the job and they originally offered it to him he's 30 30 years old in 1998 early 98 bob watson the veteran respected championship winning gm at that point is hiding in his office every day watching soap operas ordering takeout because every time he'd pick up the phone or walk out into the hallway, George is probably screaming at him.

21:31And he quits. He can't take it anymore. And like, why would Cashman want that? Why in the world would you want to replace that guy? And he just sort of shrugged when I asked him that. And he said, oh, I just figured I was raised in this environment. I was uniquely equipped to handle it. And he's right about that. The Steinbrenners value him for the reasons I stated, but he also can handle it. And And the loyalty goes both ways there. Well, I love him. I think he's one of the consummate professionals in Major League Baseball. You gave him up a little bit, though, Mr. Martino. You told us he has a burner account.

22:07Got a Twitter burner account. He checked in on the fans. Do you think some of the fan criticism bothers him, or he's just using that burner account for a biometric pressure reading? Did you see, I'm sure you're aware of the GM meetings last year when he kind of unloaded and dropped some F-bombs and defended his people in his process. Yes, of course. I knew that was building up for some time because naturally, I think if you're someone who thinks you do a pretty good job, the objective facts support that you do a pretty good job. And everyone's telling you you suck all the time. He has a thick skin, but that would be annoying after a while.

22:45You know, at the 2022 ALCS, they're in the final four. They got sweat by the Astros. It was ugly, but they're there. And it's like fire Cashman. At that point, it must have bothered him, although he would be loathe to really open up about that. But I do know that he doesn't look at the burner account anymore. There's a TV. I'm sure you've been in his office. If you hung out with him at the stadium, there's a TV on the wall. If he went in there a couple of years ago, it was MLB Network, yes, SNY. Now it's like CNN or whatever. He's trying to do his job now while tuning out the noise more intentionally than he did even a few years ago.

23:22So sure. I mean, look, I'm a pretty good reporter and people tell me on Twitter all day that I suck and I'm fine, but it's annoying. So I'm sure he had the same experience. Well, I mean, I'm going to give you a lesson from politics, Martino. I don't know. Please do. Shut off your Twitter notifications. Yeah. Okay. And tweet and read all the other things out there on Twitter, except for the responses to your tweet. How about that? That's a good call. I never read that stuff. Get in the habit of doing that. And because, you know, look, those, I mean, hey, I mean, what your grandmother told you is correct.

23:59What other people think of you, Martino, is none of your business. Okay. So just forget it. Put it by the wayside. That's a good. Cashman has learned that over the years. And I would say that's helped him survive in the job after he thought about leaving after 22, the time I just mentioned. And he re-signed. Out of loyalty to the family, judge is a free agent. You're not going to leave Hal on the lurch to deal with that without a GM. There's a lot of reasons. But part of that time started with like a 2-0. Great acquisition of Soto. Hopefully the team can keep Soto in place. What a great 1-2 combination.

24:30Had a falling out with Joe Torre. Did they patch it up? Not. I mean, they say the right things. Uh, but, and, and they're not at war with each other or anything. And Torrey and his role with the, with MLB for years, he and Cashman dealt with one another professionally. Uh, but it feels like a divorce there where two people were quite close in the nineties. Cashman said, Torrey was like a second father to me and disconnects, uh, arose over the years. They drifted apart. There were some conflicts. There was a falling out that was literally over the situation I described at length in the book would be tough to summarize, but had to do with the trust that Cashman felt that he lost in Torrey and Ron Guidry, the pitching coach at the time, over the pitch counts that they were reporting, pitchers in spring training.

25:17And Torrey felt like he was being spied on and they had a blow up and a falling out. Sure, they patched it up, but it seems to me more like a divorce where you're civil years later than like a deep relationship at this point. All right. Listen, And I like both of those men a great deal. I have a lot of respect for Joe. I had Verducci and Joe. Of course, Verducci wrote the Cubs way. So we now have the Yankee way, the Cardinals way. But Verducci, I had him interview Joe Torrey and Bobby Valentine on the 20th anniversary of 9-11. That's great. He's got the rebirth of New York baseball at that very critical time in New York and that tragic time.

26:01Okay, so let's go to Jeter and A-Rod and managing both of them. How bad was that? And by the way, I have heard from several Yankees that will remain nameless here who believe firmly that A-Rod cost them more than one championship during the A-Rod era. Do you believe that to be true? Well, that's a tough thing to quantify. But if players believe that, I wouldn't have told that specific thing. But I think that the dynamic was a big part of why they were really good teams in the regular season that just weren't quite winning teams. And certainly not in October through that decade of the 2000s. It was really difficult for their teammates to be around those two sometimes in the Cold War between them.

26:43So tell me about that. Do you think that Cold War lives on on the Fox broadcast? I tell you, Yankee people are fascinated by the fact that they're colleagues now on Fox. It's almost funny to them. And what's interesting about it is the first time that Jeter has come in on a team that Alex already had and how that changes the power dynamic. I think that they both mature to some extent. Jeter has made peace with Cashman, as you read in the book. And I think he's older now. He's been more reflective. He has a family. So I'm sure it's fine now. But back in the 2000s, there was a lot of tension surrounding that dynamic from a lot of different angles.

27:22There was Cashman telling Jeter, you need to be the captain of everyone. You need to make Alex feel more welcome. That being a bridge too far for Jeter. Teammates feeling that tension. There were teammates that were fiercely loyal to Jeter's leadership style. Others that frankly by that time felt they didn't know him. That there was a bit of a class system in the clubhouse. If you'd won with us in the 90s or if you hadn't. Cashman would again say, you're everyone's captain. You have to be inclusive to everyone. And that would become a building tension between those two. Some people thought Alex was a phony.