The Foods of Lebanon with Anissa Helou

0:15Kiernan:Hi, I'm Ryan Davis. And I'm Kiernan Schmidt. And this is Out of Office, a travel podcast. This microphone taken? Ryan, what happened to your mic? I hear it's different. I don't have my fancy mic with me in Puerto Vallarta today. Ah, okay. We're doing it old school. That's okay, especially because I think we got to keep it short because I've got a great interview today that I really want to be the focus of the episode. I'm sorry to say that it's not you, Ryan. Well, I'm excited for this. This is like a throwback to one of our most popular interviews ever. Oh my gosh. Anissa Hulu, she's a cookbook writer.

0:54Kiernan:She is a great researcher. She came on originally, and I'll throw in the show notes her last episode that was all about foods of the Islamic world. And this time, she's focused on where she grew up, which is Lebanon. And I was just drooling by the end of the conversation. I love some Lebanese food. There's a good place in Bokotah called Beirut that I get to every once in a while. So I'm excited for this. You ever cook any Lebanese at the Schmidt House? Yeah, I mean, I would say the dips that we tend to do have a good Lebanese profile. And of course, the day job at Clover, we're all about hummus and falafel and za 'atar.

1:37Kiernan:And she and I talk about that a little bit. And, you know, she was citing falafel as basically the equivalent of fast food there. Oh, that's pretty good fast food. It's pretty different than the American. I mean, she said there's McDonald's and things. But I just think like, gosh, if there was if there was great falafel and hummus available all over the place, we'd be so much healthier. Who would you would you wouldn't even need a Zen pick anymore? I mean, you know, you can eat a lot of you can eat a lot of falafel, though. I think falafel is probably isn't that deep fried. It's fried. You know, it's like flash fry.

2:11Kiernan:What's the difference between deep fried and flash fried? Really? I just I just know that deep fried is bad. Yeah. Yeah. But here's the thing. When you eat falafel, you're eating like this little bit of fried stuff in the middle and it's surrounded by chickpeas and pickled cabbage and all of this healthy stuff around it. So yeah, you've got a little bit of unhealthy and a lot of healthy. Yeah. I think that's probably better than a double cheeseburger. Exactly. And that's where the comparison should be. So Anissa goes in. I learned a lot about Lebanon's history, a lot about the cultural diversity that she uncovered.

2:48Kiernan:Some of it was really, even though she lived there for 21 years, some of that was even a discovery to her. So interesting to hear her take. It's also beautiful photography in the book. I should mention, just because we're talking about it a lot, the name of the book is Lebanon. So if you want to look it up, you're definitely going to want to buy it after we speak with Anissa. And we'll definitely drop a link in the show notes to make it easy to do that. From an independent bookstore, of course. Yes. Now, before we jump into the interview, though, I do think it's important for us to acknowledge our favorite troll is back in our reviews.

3:22Kiernan:Apple podcast seems to just let you come back every six months. And I think Cornhusker55 has an alarm set. We got another one-star review. Really horrible is the name of it. And hosts are super immature millennials. I mean, are we millennials, Ryan? Elder millennials. Elder. Thank you. Elder millennials. Almost zero knowledge of the subject matter. It's like they're reading Wikipedia. Sad lack of knowledge. Great. Cornhusker, we welcome you. It's good to hear from you. And I also liked it was paired with, in May, we got a review. The name is DNDJDJEBRLSNSBD, so it's definitely not a bot. Three stars, it's okay.

4:12Kiernan:And their recommendation was, review Enid Oklahoma 2, please. We don't really review places. That's a different kind of idea. Yeah, these are examples of reviews we cannot use. It's like Boston, like a C plus, you know, and maybe before secret Boston got published, but it's on. Also, now that we're at the 250 anniversary, I mean, Boston is the place to be this year. That is true. You guys have a big UFC fight or anything like that planned? Yeah, they're going to dress up tri-corner hats and it's going to be on a ship in Boston Harbor. That I would watch actually, you know, that would be fun. You know what?

4:59Kiernan:And some of the some of the trolls might like it because, you know, the original Boston Tea Party, they actually dressed as Native American. So you throw some of that in there. I mean, it's it could be an event. I know you couldn't do that today. But, Ryan, this is I do want to say I like to put a spotlight on Cornhusker because we do really appreciate the positive reviews that have been coming in because it just takes this stuff just out. you know, you got to overwhelm these trolls. So if you like out of office, if you like me, or if you like Ryan, you don't need to like both of us. But if you like one of us, please go to where you listen.

5:37Kiernan:Give us five stars. Give it a positive review. This helps people find the podcast. It makes us feel good. And put your real recommendations into the reviews. We read them. We read them here. And we take them into account when we're deciding what to cover next. And we, we, we prioritize five-star review requests. Of course, of course. And so, uh, Ryan, uh, while we keep one eye out for those reviews, which should be rolling in, I think it's time. I just don't want to delay. And I don't really want to hear you off mic anymore. Let's go talk to Anissa Halou. Oh, the cabin crew. Flight attendants, prepare for takeoff, please.

6:15Kiernan:My guest today is Anissa Hulu, cookbook author and general bon vivant. Anissa focuses on foods of the Mediterranean, Middle East, and North Africa and brings a wonderful verve to her writing and research. And she was one of the first guests on Out of Office, I think about seven years ago. And she's back to talk about her new book, Lebanon, Cooking the Foods of My Homeland. It's a wonderful book. Anissa, welcome back to Out of Office. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And so I have to ask, are you in Lebanon right now? Yeah, I am. Only two days. I mean, given what a continental life I've picked up you've led, tell us about what's your personal connection to Lebanon?

7:01Kiernan:Why do you pick that as your homeland as someone who's lived so many different places? Well, I was born in Lebanon and lived in the country until I was 21. So it's basically my homeland, even though I've lived twice as long, if not more than twice as long outside. But throughout this time, I've gone back regularly. My parents, apart from some periods of times in the war during the Civil War, lived there all the time. And I've got lots of friends. And basically, I never lost touch with the country, nor with the language, nor with the food. either. And for those who don't know much about Lebanon, just give us a sense, you know, in your book, you really, you give kind of a pocket history and geography of what Lebanon is like.

7:56Kiernan:The landmass itself is pretty small. You describe it as half the size of New Jersey. So I think to an American who has, you know, such an enormous country to think of, diversity in food and culture, you know, it comes with the scale. So how is it that there's so much diversity packed across Lebanon? Well, it's a very young country. It was not a country until 1945 when it got its independence. Before that, it was under French mandate, but not as what they call the greater Lebanon. And until then, it belonged to the Ottoman Empire. I mean, before the French mandate, Until the First World War, it belonged to the Ottoman Empire and was under greater Syria.

8:43So it wasn't defined as such as a country. But the mountains of Lebanon have always been autonomous. And because it was put together in this kind of rather strange way by French people and the Maronite community, it was kind of pieced together from different regions that had different confessions, different religions, majority religions. And so it's a country that is kind of put together with little kind of feudal estates, let's say, or feudal regions that belong to Druze or to Muslim Shias or to Sunni Muslims. and, of course, a majority then a Christian community. Things have changed. So you have a lot of different, like in the South, they eat quite differently from in the North.

9:39And it's all the whole, the country is completely coastal. So that makes it also quite interesting.

9:47Kiernan:And you wrote an earlier book that centered on Lebanese cuisine. So how did it change from when you wrote that in the 90s to this new book? Well, the country hasn't changed much, except that it's much more miserable now because it has a lot of problems. But my first book is all about my mother and her recipes. And I wrote it at a time at the very end of the Civil War when I had not been to the country for more than 10 years. whereas this book is all about traveling across the country with a friend photographer who took photographs and talking to people in situ as it were so nothing to do with my mother although my mother has always been in the background and a fountain of knowledge of Lebanese food and culinary lore unfortunately she's no longer with us but was until not so long ago and so this book is completely centered around the country itself, the people who I met in my travels around the country, with lots of photographs, location photographs, as well as studio photography.

10:56So it's a very, very different book from the first one. I mean, of course, there are universal recipes, but there are also a lot of regional recipes that even some Lebanese people don't know. And I didn't know.

11:09Kiernan:How would you describe your mother's cuisine that you grew up with that you knew as Lebanese food? Well, it's basically the mountains of Lebanon. My mother is Maronite, so it was kind of like the Christian community, the cooking of the mountains, and a very sort of classic Lebanese, let's say, but from that particular region. So I will give you an example, for instance, like we, you know, you know about Kibbe, I'm assuming, because you've read my book. Yes. But for those who don't, please let us know what that is. It can be lots of different things, but a meat kippe is a mixture of minced lamb and bulgur wheat, fine bulgur wheat and spice, not with chili, but with like seven spices, all spice and cinnamon.

11:57And it can be made in all kinds of different shapes like bowls, pie, discs, et cetera. And you have vegetarian versions because of the Christian community who kind of don't eat meat over Lent, over 40 days of Lent. And every Friday, they're very faithful. And whereas in the South, they make kibbeh with tomatoes, they make kibbeh with potatoes, they make kibbeh with very fine minced meat. And instead of, I mean, sometimes they mix it with the bulgur wheat, but the bulgur wheat is mixed with herbs and spices. And sometimes they have the raw meat and that very, very green and spiced bulgur wheat mixture spread on top, depending.

12:40And so they have all kinds of different versions that I didn't know about an hour away from Beirut until I started researching, you know, before I started researching this book, because I have a friend from the South who introduced me to them. But I didn't know about them until then.

12:58Kiernan:I believe it was Kibbe too, where you do have photographs of your mother preparing it on the stove, right? What I found really interesting about a lot of your recipes was you're very focused on a lot of techniques, especially trying to teach people a lot of recipes will shortcut until you put something in the food processor. But actually, the way something is cut, whether it's meat or vegetables really affects the final texture and flavor. Absolutely. I mean, like some people will make tabouleh by putting the herbs in the food processor and then bruising them to death and the end result is horrible.

13:40Whereas you're supposed to shave the herbs in very, very fine slivers, julienne, you know, in professional terms. But I think it's very important if you're, I mean, when you're cooking to pay attention to the sort of textures, to the final presentation, to every ingredient and how it should be prepared and how it should be kind of bought or used. I I mean, you know, you don't take mushy tomatoes to make tabbouleh. They need to be ripe, but they also need to be firm. So for me, it's very important to kind of prepare ingredients properly and then prepare the final dish the same way.

14:25Kiernan:Are there particular descriptors that you would give that define Lebanese cuisine broadly, even within these regional variations? You say, how would you describe for someone who's never really engaged with Lebanese cooking? What defines it? Well, first of all, it's a very vibrant cuisine, very fresh, lots of herbs, lots of lemon juice, lots of olive oil, lots of very kind of, how should I say, exquisite ingredients and very fresh on the whole, very varied, lots of salads, for instance. and on if you want to kind of quantify a sort of like universal flavor you would say lemony and oily but not greasy you know like all the dishes are cooked in olive oil and you have this kind of unctuous sort of silky sauce tomato sauce that the Italians will do the same actually but we use a lot of garlic and the northern Italians will not want to do the hate garlic so So it's not garlic.

15:30I mean, it's not coarse. I think it's quite an elegant cuisine. And a lot of attention goes on presentation a bit like the Japanese, but not as extremely aesthetic, let's say, and supremely healthy. Yeah.

15:46Kiernan:And how about in the modern world? You know, you dive into the history of some of these dishes. You talk about the way that your mother and grandmother were making them. How have things changed? Because, you know, in looking at some of the pictures and the processes, I was thinking, okay, for an American audience where you might have to buy some of these ingredients at a supermarket, you have no idea how long they've been on ice, how far they were shipped from. How has modern cooking changed versus some of these more traditional techniques that you break down in the book? I don't think much has changed except that now you can buy, for instance, you know, stuffed vegetables.

16:23In the old days, the mothers and grandmothers and whatever had to core the vegetables or roll the vine leaves or whatever. Now you can buy zucchini and eggplant already cored. So all you have to do is go back home, make the stuffing, fill them and cook them. And you can buy a machine that rolls vine leaves as well.

16:44Kiernan:Wow. And you get them all the same size. They might not be as moist as when you roll them by hand because you need to leave a bit of space for the rice to expand. But, you know, there are lots of shortcuts, but on the whole, people still like their traditional dishes and are reluctant to change them. So you have very few young chefs who are playing around with the cuisine, doing sort of what Western chefs do using the sort of local ingredients, but coming up with different versions of maybe, you know, kippe, let's say. But even like talking about kippe, there is a machine that brings, you know, makes the cylinders and then all you have to do is fill, you know, like close one side, fill it and then make the oval balls, you know, long or short or whatever.

17:35So now you can use a lot of shortcuts, but there aren't very many people who are playing around with the dishes themselves. There are a few. But as long as they don't go too far from the, let's say, the classical flavors or, you know, food is all about memory as well. So if you want to eat, you know, Lebanese food, you're thinking about, you know, like the trinity of spices, cinnamon, all spice and black pepper and sometimes the seven spice mixture. So if you don't use these in a kind of typical stew or if you make your stew deconstructed and do something, I mean, you know, I'm all for modernizing and cutting short and lightening dishes and making them more elegant and whatever.

18:24but as long as you retain the original flavor.

18:30Kiernan:Is your average Lebanese family preparing fresh each day? I'm thinking dinner for a family, you know, with two kids, two parents, so much of the cuisine you describe, it seems like it benefits from just how fresh it is. And, you know, I'm thinking about when I'm using lemon, I'm never squeezing a lemon four hours before I'm going to eat it. I'm squeezing it right when I'm about to eat it because that's when it's fresh. So what is the routine of meal making in your average Lebanese family today? Well, if the mother is working and there is a good stepmother or a good granny, they will cook for the family.

19:10There is always uncooked food, whether it's by the immediate family or by the extended members of the extended family. I have a friend who makes kibbeh bowls, you know, like in yogurt sauce or whatever. But she no longer makes the kibibbols herself. She buys them from a very good caterer who makes them almost as well as homemade. So there is always someone somewhere, some company that can provide you with the traditional time consuming elements of a dish. And then you put the dish together much faster. And of course, you have the freezer.

19:48Kiernan:Yes. And is there, is it just off the top of my head, is there a fast food culture in Lebanon? Yeah, there is a fast food culture, a fast food culture of our own, like shawarma, falafel, even hummus can be considered fast food because you'd go to these like small cafes or stalls to have hummus or full medamas. But there is also McDonald's and all kinds of Western concepts. So you have both, but on the whole, most people like their own food, like the Italians. I mean, we're very close. I mean, now that I spend a lot of time in Italy, I find the comparison quite interesting because Italians love their own food and we love our own food, except that ours is much more time consuming to prepare.

20:35Yeah.

20:36Kiernan:Actually, it's funny you mentioned that about the Italian cuisine, because we've had a previous guest come on and talk about the diverse, you know, what we consider Italian food is very much undercutting all the regional variations that you get within Italy. And he's written beautifully about that. And that really struck me when I was reading your book, too, about, you know, sometimes there's a base recipe that crosses areas, but there's rifts on it. And I do want to get into some of the more specific ingredients and dishes and some of the variations you discovered, especially things that Americans might be familiar with one version but not know about these others.

21:12Kiernan:And I also want to focus on the recipes that I think translate pretty easily to the home kitchen of our listeners. So the first is za 'atar. And, you know, growing up, I never heard of za 'atar. But now I see za 'atar everywhere. And so describe what is za 'atar, how is it used, and have you noticed this growth of za 'atar globally as kind of a new spice? Of course I have noticed it, except that it's not a spice. Sure. It's gone global. I mean, many Lebanese ingredients, or let's say Levantine ingredients in Lebanese dishes, have gone global. like hummus, for instance, has gone global, tabbouleh has gone global, and then you've got all kinds of Western variations on it.

22:02But we also have our own variations. Zahatar is basically a mixture of dried thyme, powdered dried thyme, ground sumac, and toasted sesame seeds, and a tiny bit of salt. The classic way of using zahatar in Lebanon is mixing it with olive oil and using it as a topping on flat bread, which is man-usheh, which we have for breakfast. But most traditional homes will have a bowl of za 'atar mixed with olive oil on their kitchen counter to just dip either a piece of bread in it or a piece of bread with a scoop of lemne in it. You know, you eat za 'atar with lemne, you eat za 'atar just with bread. But we don't, you know, one of the global ways of doing, using za 'atar now is, you know, smearing it, chicken with za 'atar and then roasting it.

22:57And it's called za 'atar chicken. But we've never done that.

23:01Kiernan:Well, and I, you know, I find, because you wouldn't know this, but I actually work for a restaurant chain in Boston that makes hummus falafel. We do za 'atar pita and it's a very Lebanese inspired menu. And I always found that any preparation where za 'atar is going into the oven, you lose a lot of the flavor of it because you're just over-roasting. You're sort of deadening those herbs in that mix. And that's why when you mix za 'atar with olive oil, it bubbles a little bit on the flatbread, but it's a very short time. Whereas if you're searing a chicken with za 'atar and you're roasting it for an hour, you've lost most of the flavor, really.

23:45Kiernan:And how about tabouleh? Tabouleh is a very interesting salad. I mean, it's basically a herb and tomato salad with a smattering of bulgur wheat. It's definitely not a couscous salad and it's not a grain salad. But in Lebanon, I didn't, I mean, you know, I used to get, you know, quite kind of annoyed with people making tabouleh with lentils and tabouleh with this and tabouleh with that. You know, it became a generic term. But in fact, in Lebanon, there are different versions of tabbouleh. One of them, I can't remember the recipe exactly, but it has awirma in it. Awirma is preserved lamb. It's like a lamb version of corned beef.

24:27So it's tiny pieces of lamb cooked in tail fat and that it lasts forever. And this tabbouleh is like this. Then there's another tabbouleh that has chickpeas in it with a lot of herbs. So you have different versions. They're not called tabbouleh as such, but the version with the preserved lamb is called tabbouleh. The other one with the chickpeas is called sif, but it's basically a tabbouleh, but I think without the tomatoes. So it's a classic. It's maybe the most classic of Lebanese salads. and on the whole, I would never order tabbouleh in a restaurant because it's never as good as when it's made at home.

25:11And if it's good in a restaurant, it means that the restaurant is paying a lot of attention to how they profess it.