Traveling The USA For The World Cup With NPR's Ava Berger

0:15Hi, I'm Ryan Davis. And I'm Kiernan Schmidt. And this is Out of Office, a travel podcast. Is he taken? Hey, Kiernan. Hello, Ryan. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. I'm, you know, I've got World Cup fever for the first time in my life. You know, I am nervous. I'm nervous about this episode. We've never done a sports-focused episode. And, you know, despite the fact that I am a volunteer soccer coach for my son's team here in Somerville, Massachusetts, I guess I'm sort of the subject matter expert here. Do you wear like a nice suit? Like the Norwegian coach? Or are you more like low-key and cool like some of the other coaches?

1:03What's your vibe? So I'm very low-key. I'm very intense as a coach for these six-year-olds. Like these kids, I hold them to high standards and I tell them when they have made mistakes. But I will say I am not the most intense dad. There are some dads out there like they take the rules so seriously because like I have a ton of kids who come. So I'm always like, hey, can I have five on the field? We'll do five on the field. They're like, no, regulation is that there's four people on the field at this level. I'm like, OK, I just really wanted like this kid to give this like kindergarten her time to play.

1:38No, no, no. They're preparing their kids for the World Cup in 2042 or whatever. Well, okay. If you want to argue they're preparing their kids, let's talk about which team didn't lose a single game. Oh, what's that? My team. My team. Wow. Wow. It is through no credit to me. It is because I have two Australian kids on the team. Oh, so you've got some strikers. I've got some ringers. I've got some ringers and they killed it. And, you know, I taught the others how to dribble. And that's pretty much all I can claim credit for. You know, it's it's funny. I was you know, I've been watching some of the games here, you know, with my my Colombian friends.

2:23And so I've been doing some research and a soccer player peaks in talent in skill and about age 27. So those kids are not that far off. And if you look at somebody like Messi, he's pushing 39, has already scored five goals this World Cup. And he's, you know, he's like a superhero. I think most people are not like that. Man, Ryan, you're coming in. You got the names, you got the stats. I'm very anxious to see, is this going to drive out of office listeners away as much as theater talk? Or does it bring a new, does it change us from 70 % women to 30 % men to 65 % women? You know, who knows? I think, you know who I think is going to come around is Cornhusker.

3:07I think Cornhusker 55 is going to write Still horrible. Now they just talk about sports. Well, this is a very Americana episode because, you know, the World Cup is being hosted across all of North America. And, you know, we're going to focus on, you know, what what foreign travelers have been experiencing, you know, when they come here and visit the U.S. and go to a lot of cities that don't typically get international tourism. And I mean, by way of the Judy alert, Ryan, are you in a place where the World Cup is a big deal? Yeah, so I'm back in my apartment in Bogota. Okay, you're home. Yeah. And yeah, we've been hosting, you know, there's been two games so far and we've hosted little watch parties.

3:58My boyfriend's been cooking meals inspired by the teams that Colombia is playing against. So we had an Uzbeki meal and we had a meal from the Democratic Republic of Congo. And then on Saturday, it's Portugal. So that'll just be wine and meats. And how has Colombia been faring? Colombia is doing great. They're going to win their group. They're already kind of going to the next round. So, yeah, they're super excited here. And Columbia has been between the election, which was Sunday, and the World Cup, just a lot of Colombian patriotism going on right now. My neighborhood on Sunday, the election results came out, and my neighborhood went insane.

4:50I haven't seen anything like that since Obama won in 2008. People out on the streets waving flags and honking horns, and it was quite an experience. And do you find, are you cheering for the U.S.? Are you cheering for Columbia? Are you just taking it all in? I'm cheering for Columbia because I'm here, but I'm also following the U.S., who's playing really well. In fact, I'm going to, there's a pub that all the nomads go to for sports events. I've only been once for the Super Bowl a couple of years ago. It's called El Irish, so the Irish, and it's an Irish pub. yeah i just want to show you i can translate yeah it's an irish pub here and it's got a so that's where i'm going to go tonight i'm going to eat some chicken wings and uh you know watch watch the americans uh beat turkey i think um well the as as you've i don't know has it been international news do you understand how uh world cup focused boston has been um yeah so So, you know, I've I've been following on on on, you know, Twitter and Instagram.

6:02And I think I even sent you a video of a Scottish boy talking about the ticket prices. Yes, yes, yes. I mean, all of I thought maybe my social media was just being overrun with this because I'm local. But the the amount of content of Scottish people enjoying Boston, doing crazy things about Boston. Did you see this thing where they're putting traffic cones all over statues around Boston? Oh, I did not see that. Yeah, that's been like a real sort of playful thing that they're doing, putting like bright orange traffic cones all over statues. And it's happening. Boston is a city of great old statues.

6:42So it's been really fun. And kilts everywhere. I mean, I really can't overstate how many kilts you're seeing around town right now. And then what was a huge story here, and thank goodness I keep a good supply at my house so the shortage didn't affect me, was that the beer supply is greatly reduced. And we are a pretty heavy drinking city as is. Yeah, I've been reading about this. I saw a great video yesterday of a bar that opened right before one of the Scotland games. And everybody's pounding on the bar going, open the bar, open the bar, which I'm sure the bartender loved. hopefully they tip, you know, I mean, we've got such an enormous number of breweries here and they're reporting going through like four times the units that they would do even on like the busiest weekends in Boston.

7:35So pretty incredible. And it's nice to see that the Irish and the Scottish here can come together to drink in peace and happiness. And from what I understand, And Scotland, the fans have moved on to Miami, but they actually could be back in Boston, which I think would I think it would get even crazier if they actually come back because it feels a real bond has been formed between Bostonians and the Scottish. Yeah, I mean, they got blown out yesterday by Brazil in that Miami game. So I think Scotland might be going. Oh, so are they knocked out totally that it's it's it's it's pretty unlikely that they'll get to continue it's complicated how these it is it's more complicated than i can tell ryan i have to say i'm finding uh following the rules in the competition very hard and i want you to be honest with me on this okay did you realize how long the world cup is no i i had no idea it was so long i mean it's like basically six six weeks or something and we're barely halfway through And it was funny because my friends here were giving me crap about the Knicks, how long the Knicks playoff was.

8:45And I'm like, World Cup's like five times longer. It's like nothing. The Knicks thing, by the way, was so exciting. It was one of the few times since I've left New York that I've been like, oh, damn, New York is like. It did look fun. It looked really fun. Awesome. Now, as is as becoming clear, the more we talk, you and I were not the experts who need to be talking about the ties between travel and the World Cup. So I understand you're bringing us somebody who can walk us through this. Yeah, we've got NPR's Ava Berger coming on today, and she's going to talk about an article she wrote about basically foreign tourists traveling around America and what they've been seeing and saying.

9:27And this is going to be a cool episode because she actually sent me a bunch of clips of interviews that she did. So we're going to be hearing live from actual fans talking about their experiences. So this is going to be a cool episode. And I think before we get into the interview, though, I do want to talk a bit about, you know, where the World Cup is happening. So, you know, I think it's time for us to take off. Tell the cabin crew. Flight attendants, prepare for takeoff, please. all right kieran and we are here uh in world cup headquarters uh the out of office world cup headquarters um so this is an interesting i mean i mean i feel like i being in boston i can claim that yeah well you are definitely in one of the cities now there are 16 cities in north america that are hosting uh games this world cup including 11 in the u.s um but canada's got toronto and Vancouver that are that have many games Mexico has three cities Guadalajara Mexico City and Monterey and I was actually in Mexico City the day that the World Cup began so I wasn't there for like all the craziness that's happening now but I was there to see everybody in their green Mexico jerseys and you know I was feeling the excitement and I've actually completely fallen in love with this duck merlin have you have you seen this duck no i don't know the oh my gosh so merlin is this is basically a little a little white duck and owned by a mexican family and they got him a little custom mexico jersey and he was walking all around and has become uh sort of the the symbol of mexico in these uh in these games he's he's uh he was even invited to the uh presidential palace and he met with the duck met with um uh claudia uh this this week so he's become a bit of an internet sensation people are trying to buy him for an obscene amount of money from his owners who's like a you know a mom and like a kid and the kid's like mom's like i'm not going to sell my kid's pet you know uh but it's you know because you may not be aware the major duck story here that dominating is the ducks that are dying and reflecting pool in washington dc i did i did see that um we've got we've had dark stories but not this one yeah this is coming out a few days before july 4th so hopefully we'll get that reflecting pool back back in order uh they've got a couple days here um but yeah i think uh you know thinking about the weather in some of these cities too it is hot in monterey it is hot in guadalajara so to be playing uh you know at this level um in those cities and plus a city like mexico city you can barely breathe just like walking up the stairs because of how high it is so you know i can't imagine playing uh you know all these soccer teams coming from like uh norway and uh you know places without any elevation uh you know have to get used to that kind of uh altitude is norway uh yeah i think of norway as quite mountainous well maybe it is mountainous but it's you know i could have done a better what order in portugal you know is that that's not i feel like uh you know uh copenhagen feels like denmark didn't make the make the cut oh good point sweden did man you you're good ryan i'm pretty impressed here well they do at the uh this is this is really embarrassing but they they do this trivia in between um at the parties i go to in between the you know don't have time and so i've been like like basically like reading up on each team playing and the countries and so I can like win the trivia and uh I crushed it last time I I I won uh I got some really obscure I knew like when was the last time that you know a country won the what was the last time the the democratic republic of congo was in the world cup and it's a trick question because they were in it in 1974 as Zaire and I knew that story.

13:36Oh my God. Wow. And Ryan, are the handsome men part of the draw for you? You know, there are quite a few handsome men on each team, which isn't a bad thing. And certainly here in Columbia, we've got this guy last name James, who's sort of the looker. Yes, yes, yes. I've seen some of the rankings of the top hottest players. I think that he was one of them. he's up there yeah he's up there um but it's interesting because the world cup you know the the ages of the players range from 17 to 42 i think so it's a big range of players ryan i'm so sorry you're missing the cutoff but just but just yeah yeah well i could be like uh you know the oldest players are uh the goalies so i could be a goalie for like a country that barely makes it, you know?

14:29Sure. Yeah, you could. I said something, I don't know if I'm allowed to say it, but I wonder why we didn't pick a kind of a larger man. You know, we have a lot of people in America, I think that could cover a big percentage of that goal. Of course. Yeah. I mean, instead of the skinny, hot and shaped guy. 70 % of the goal, if you're looking at certain parts of the country. Yeah. So I think we should have, I would have gone a different strategy with the goalie and just going for just how what percentage of the goal can can a single person cover but that's not how they play this is where ozempic is killing it i maybe we couldn't find he might be the largest we could find nowadays um so looking at the u.s now this is super interesting i'm going to just read through the cities uh that games are currently every you mean every major city in the united states basically yeah we've got atlanta we've got boston dallas houston kansas city la Miami, New York, but really New Jersey, Philadelphia, San Francisco and Seattle.

15:29So a lot of cities. How did Chicago miss out on this? I don't know. That is that is weird. You know, really weird. They do. They do get an option to participate. Right. And maybe it is expensive to host a World Cup. It's debatable if it's a net win or loss for your city economically. So maybe Chicago just was like, you know, we don't want to deal with it. In fact, I actually think I read something about Rahm Emanuel just not being into it when this because this was negotiated. I'm Googling it. And that's exactly what it was. He just said it was going to be too expensive. Yeah. So for Rahm. Good.

16:03No, no fun. Rahm. Whatever. Rahm for president. We like Rahm. Yeah. Rahm was a courtside of the Knicks. So so he's not he's not against going to the game. He can put his own money out there. Well, I think it's his I think it was his brother. actually who has those seats. I'm going to the Obama Presidential Center in August. Very excited. Maybe I'll run into Rom there. That'll be fantastic. That'll be an episode. Oh, it'll be good. I've actually already reached out. I'm trying to book the director of it. Oh, fantastic. Fantastic. Well, they haven't gotten any media, so they'll be happy to hear from us.

16:37What do you think? Do you like the... We shouldn't talk. I want to know what you think of the building, but it's not appropriate to what we're tackling. Let's save it because I have thoughts. So out of these, I'm trying to look. okay atlanta boston dallas houston kansas city lost into miami new york the uh philadelphia san francisco seattle the only place on here i have not been is kansas city i have been to every one of these cities i thought so yeah you've been what brought you to kansas city was that when you were on the campaigns no that's actually a funny story it was when i was a hedwig obsessed uh 21 year old and there was a early regional production of a hedwig and i met some friends there and we spent four days in Kansas City, had a great time.

17:16Great food, I hear. Yeah, great, great barbecue. Yeah, it's a it's a cool town. And they've they've really embraced, you know, I think Albania is the country that's been, you know, because teams are based in certain cities when they're not playing. And so Albania has been there and Kansas City's rallied around that team. And so it was very fun to see that happen. It's really, it's very fun to see these cities that, I mean, you know, frankly, I mean, the world is aware of this, but being here in the United States, I can of course say there is a lot of concern about tourism having fallen off here, feeling like we're alienated from the world.

17:58And it is very nice to have six weeks where we see foreigners coming and being embraced by Americans. that it is it is a great feeling yeah it's a it's a it's a very cool thing and and and interesting things have happened like you know the iranian team they're not allowed to be in the states when they're not playing i know they're staying right across in mexico so they flew them out to la and they played that game and they left a beautiful note um in the locker room to uh basically to america saying thank you for the hospitality and and and and they said that um things like the world cup show that nations can work together and and uh you know i think i think in this time of like you know uh instability uh in europe and in latin america um to see all these you know all these countries come together and pursue like a a common goal and peaceful and and and have a great time it's just you know it's i think we need the world needed the world cup maybe more than we usually do.

18:57I very much agree with that. And looking down this list, I mean, it is striking that this is like the whole country. You know, Chicago is a good example where like that city it's kind of a surprise one missing here. But it's cool to see that so many cities across the United States raise their hand to host. Yeah. And in the interview we're going to get to in a minute with Ava, we're going to talk about what's been happening, which is all these tourists have been going between these cities and so going to different parts of America kind of road trip style um and you know seeing a lot of the country that you normally wouldn't see um you know cities like Houston that are not really international travel destinations uh are getting a lot of attention from tourists who you know from Japan who normally wouldn't have Houston as number one place they'd go uh you know on their U.S.

19:46travel list so it's it's a really cool thing and um you know I think we could we could jump into to ava's interview and hear more about how you know foreign tourists is sort of embracing americana let's talk to ava all right ava welcome so much to out of office thanks for coming on thanks for having me so we uh you know i've just loved you know i'm on twitter too much during the day and it's been so much fun to watch uh you know folks from around the world coming to the U.S. for the World Cup and and sort of experiencing like a lot of like really kind of like Americana. And I saw your article, so I reached out and I would just love to get, you know, tell me a little bit about what you've been seeing and what's sort of happening, you know, as folks come in and experience the U.S.

20:38Yes, I agree. I am on Twitter way too much or X, they call it these days. And I was just seeing at first, before I pitched this article, just an eruption on X and Instagram and social media of viral posts from people coming and visiting the U.S. for the World Cup of just loving these, I guess we would call them average or just not even niche, just these American things. People are posting things that we as Americans see as more normal. So Isles and Walmart, Buc-ee's. I'm from Dallas, so a big Buc-ee's fan anyways. And just these things that we don't normally think about that they're loving. And I'm sure we'll get into this more.

21:25But also just the specific cities for the World Cup. Obviously, there's New York City, bigger cities in California, but you have places like Dallas, Kansas City, Seattle that I really don't think that people who travel from abroad are coming to these cities. But the World Cup is just is making them explode. I just hadn't prepared myself for how much we'd be wowed by Kansas City and the people and the vibe. I think his name is Freddie. Freddie. Yeah, he's become like a viral sensation. like and that's been really fun to watch. And I'll put a link in the show notes to him. But, you know, so he's been in going around and just I think a couple of days ago, he was driving through Ohio and just like, look how beautiful this sort of small town is.

22:09And, you know, that's been really fun to see. You talk a bit about the barbecue thing. That's unpack that a bit. Yes. Yeah. And I'll say on Freddie, I put down some notes myself because I looked at his most recent post and he said overnight in Berlin, Ohio. And wow, it's beautiful here. And I just don't think I ever could have imagined someone from Germany coming and talking about Berlin, Ohio. But anyways, he's very much the encapsulation of all this, but has not talked to any reporters, which makes it more elusive. But yes, the barbecue debate. So I spoke to George Ellick. He runs a podcast called The England Pod, which focuses on soccer and sports.

22:50And he was talking to me about Kansas City. him and his friends, they weren't expecting much from Kansas City when they came to visit and they were just wowed. And one of the things that I loved was they dove into this debate between Kansas City barbecue and Texas barbecue. They went to Dallas after Kansas City. And it was something that went viral on their social media because it's just so specific to America. This is our debate between food. I know there's Texas and California, like we have Tex-Mex in Texas and California. Like there's those little debates that you don't think that people visiting are really going to care about.

23:29And so I loved that. And another funny thing that they said about Kansas City is they were very confused about the fact that it was both in Kansas and Missouri. And that was a whole nother level of confusion that is very American. Yeah, on the barbecue thing, there was a fun video I saw where these three guys were sitting down to eat their first sort of ribs. And they're about to use a knife and a fork. And the barbecue, the pit guy comes over and says like, no, no, no, you just eat it with your hands. The meat comes right off the bone. And it's just so funny, their reaction when they're like, I've never had meat that tastes like this.

24:10And when you travel around the world, barbecue is actually one of the things that's sort of harder to find, especially like real barbecue that is as good as you would get in Texas or Kansas. this. And obviously those are very different barbecues, so I don't want to equate them. People are obsessed with how big America is. Everything in America is huge. Talk a bit about that. Yeah. And wait, I'll add one more thing to the barbecue, as you were saying. The best part about it was in their video, as they were talking about Kansas City barbecue versus Texas barbecue, they were too scared to say which one was better.

24:47They didn't want to actually weigh in. So like you were saying, you don't want to equate the two. You have to be really careful with these debates. So the fact that they're even picking up on that subculture is amazing. But yes, everything is so big. I heard that over and over again in my reporting, Ryan. It was Japanese. I was talking to a Japanese fan who's in Dallas and she was telling me she couldn't believe the size of the dogs that we have as pets. And she was walking around the city and just seeing these huge dogs which I loved um and then I was talking to a Scottish fan and he was saying the size of the bagels are just huge here he couldn't believe it so that's just a theme that we see over and over and over again um and just in the supermarkets too like the huge um this one fan I think he was Dutch he posted on x with like his arms spread out in this aisle of Walmart and he said this cereal aisle is bigger than anything back home so i i loved that for us it's all just like gobsmacking from the size of the food to the size of the buildings to the skyscrapers and stuff it's incredible yeah i the the selection in the supermarket thing has has also uh been been funny to watch you know one of the things that i think is is interesting is it's it's not like folks are coming and talking about our michelin-starred restaurants uh one one restaurant that I've seen come up time and time again is Texas Roadhouse.

26:17Yes. What do folks think is so unique about Texas Roadhouse? Yes, Texas Roadhouse. So another Japanese fan I talked to, he could not get over Texas Roadhouse. He loved it. So much so that when we actually, when I was talking to him on the phone, I looked it up for him and he's like, are they anywhere else? And it turns out it's a chain that's in some international country, in other countries, but it's not in Japan. And he put his head in his hands and he said, no, why not Japan? But his thing was the bread. So, and this is funny because I do think a lot of Americans do know Texas Roadhouse for their bread.

27:01And so he was obsessed with this bread and he could not get it out of his mind, wanted more, was going to travel to another country closer to Japan just to get Texas Roadhouse. And speaking of more popular restaurants that we don't think of a lot, McDonald's, which is obviously an international chain. But the specific thing about McDonald's that I've heard a lot is the unlimited free soda refills. And I don't think we think a lot about that delicacy of soda refills, But it really was something that stood out to the fans that I talked to. Yeah, I've seen quite a few videos where people are sort of aghast at how much soda they get to drink for two dollars.

27:47I guess so does the one inflation proof thing we have in the in the U.S. In the Texas Roadhouse thing, people have been calling out the they give you the free peanuts. That's gotten a lot of attention as well. And then the bread, it's funny because a month or two ago, there was this viral article about the best free restaurant bread in America. We talked about it. Yes. And Texas Roadhouse came up in that. And I hadn't thought about Texas Roadhouse in quite a few years. And now it's back in my timeline again. So good for good for Texas Roadhouse getting so much international attention. Talk a little bit about what folks think about, you know, big cities like Dallas.

28:28What's sort of the conversation there? Yeah, so I think Dallas again is, and I'm from there, so I apologize for even saying this, but I don't, it's not a place that we typically think of international travelers being drawn to. But the people who were in Dallas that I talked to, just everything is bigger in Texas. It goes back to that. And the houses are bigger. We call them the McMansions. I was talking about the dogs are bigger. And the food, people just love. We were talking earlier about barbecue. The barbecue in Texas, not to be biased or anything, but is truly amazing. So I heard that over and over again.

29:12But also one of the Japanese fans who I talked to, she was mentioning they weren't sure about safety in these bigger cities, cities that they don't know very well and haven't heard about a lot. And she was very pleasantly surprised with how safe it was and how easy it was to get to the game. You don't think about Dallas as a city that's very big on public transport, but she hopped on, I think, a train and got right there. So that was another plus for Dallas. Yeah, Dallas has gotten like a ton of attention during these games. And, you know, I've never really followed a World Cup this closely, and I didn't know how long it goes on.

30:00So like when this interview comes out, you know, next week, so the end of June, there's still more than half of the World Cup left to play in so many games across the country. So we haven't even begun to see sort of this content. I think this has actually become sort of a more and more of a trend because people have so much fun sort of like, you know, making these videos and showing off their travels to the to the US. Yeah, that's a great point, Ryan, because I talked to a few experts and one of them was Ron Craybill from the University of Washington. He runs the Global Sport Lab. But he was saying the really interesting part about these World Cups is people, like they have to live kind of how everyday Americans live.

30:42Like, for example, in Dallas, this van, she had to get an Airbnb because you can't stay in a hotel for two weeks, you know, like you're having to immerse yourself more into the culture. And that really, Crabill told me, that really seems to be why people are getting to see these more average parts of our culture that we don't normally think of. There was a funny quote that another expert told me. He said, when we think of soft power of the U.S., the U.S. being able to expand that soft power, we don't normally think of free unlimited soda refills at McDonald's. But because people are here for so long and they're living how we live, it's what they're finding.

31:27Yeah. And they're even amazed by little things like things they've seen maybe in movies like the yellow school bus. That's a real thing. The yellow school bus. you know i love the yellow school bus i saw this video of the fan saying this is real you guys actually have your school buses and the scotland fans who rented all the yellow school buses the the scotland fan i talked to blair mcnally he said i asked him about it he said well yeah i i think that we're we're just good at um like it was just the most reasonable thing for us we love the y 'all school buses and they got us there fast, you know, so they had rented a ton of them to get to the game, which was great.

32:07That's so funny. I'd like to close on what I think is like a really, you know, positive note. And that's that, that, you know, people are enjoying meeting, meeting everyday Americans. Yes. And that is one of the biggest takeaways. As we think of America's stance in the world right now, a couple, my, from my reporting, talking to people, talking to some experts. There is a sense that there's some animosity towards American politicians and the ruling class of America is how one of the fans put it for me. But when they got there and they're just talking to people, they're just gushing about how nice the average American is.

32:51I know the English soccer fan, he told me that he knows when he goes back to England that he's going to get questions like, what was America like? What was this politician? Were people talking about the president? And his one response is just going to be. Everyone was unbelievably welcoming and hospitable to us. So that's the takeaway, which I think is really, really nice to hear for a lot of Americans. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Ava, for coming on. I do have one off topic question to ask you. You recently wrote about the World Series of Birding. What is that? Oh, this is just the greatest story ever.

33:32So the World Series of Birding is a 24-hour birding extravaganza in New Jersey. And me and my colleague, Natalie Escobar, we followed around three teenage boys and they had to find birds across the state of New Jersey, stayed up, I am not kidding, for 24 hours and they found over 200 bird species. It was just, it was a once in a lifetime experience to be immersed in the world of birding. And there was a lot. I'm trying to think of something. I think, was that okay? Yeah, no, that's great. We'll link to the article, both articles in the show notes. I don't think of New Jersey as being ecologically that interesting for birds.

34:20So very cool. Thank you so much for joining us. And now it's time for the last stop. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the last stop on this train. Everyone, please leave the train. So Kiernan, two questions for you. One, Kansas City or Texas barbecue? queue. I have tried versions of both as I've spent time in Texas. I have, as I said, I have not been to Kansas city. I mean, so just by dint of having not tried Kansas city in Kansas city, I don't feel qualified to say. It's funny because a handful of the influencers, as Ava said, have been unwilling to come down on either side. Who do you think I'm copying here?