Packaging design and sustainability with Now New Next

0:04So we really see that compliance alone means nothing to the consumer yet. And that's something that is often overlooked. It's often split in two different phases. So you see that first translation from legislation, people of VR is made towards an advice. And then it gets at the table of designers who are most of the time not directly involved in the sustainability or the advice phase. And that's actually a bridge that we try to make between these different phases.

0:41Hello and welcome to a special edition of Packaging Europe's podcast. My name is Elisabeth Skoda. I'll be your host today. And today I'm very pleased to have with me Emily Cooks. She's sustainable packaging partner at NowNewNext. And they're a brand and packaging design agency, which is also a partner of Packaging Europe Sustainable Packaging Summit this year. And I'll take this opportunity to discuss the role of packaging design in packaging sustainability and also NowNewNext plans at the Sustainable Packaging Summit. and they also host their own podcast which is called PackTrack and they've recently spoken to our own Tim Sykes on their podcast so yeah we now have a nice symmetry here and I'll also make sure to link that episode down below.

1:29Yeah welcome Emily thank you very much for being on the podcast today. Yes thank you for the invitation it's nice to be on the other side of the mic this time. Absolutely, yeah, I can imagine. So, yeah, to get us started, could you tell me a bit more about yourself and NowNewNext? Yes, of course. Yes, I'm Emily Cooks, as you already really nicely introduced. And we are an independent packaging design agency. We are based in the Netherlands. And we actually help brand owners design packaging that's more sustainable. And at the moment, of course, also compliant with regulation like PVWR. But also packaging that still stands out and works on the production line and stands out on the shelf and shelves.

2:17So we actually cover the whole journey from strategy, legislation to 3D structural design, the graphic design on the pack. And we also stay involved until it's ready for production. So we don't supply any packages ourselves, but we think it's really important to incorporate design here as well. when talking about making sustainable impacts. Yes, and I think it'd be great to zoom in on that straight away. From your viewpoint, from the packaging design angle, what role do you think does design play when it comes to sustainability? And yeah, would you say maybe it's sometimes been a bit overlooked?

2:57Yeah, what we definitely see in the market is that there are many consultants that can actually tell what's wrong, that are really deep and really good at translating the PPWR, what's in there and what we all should do, what's not allowed and which direction to go. And I think that's really valuable, but it often stops at a report or an advice. And then someone still has to make a pack that complies and that runs on the production line. Obviously, costs are involved. It should protect the product, fits the shelf, et cetera, et cetera. and that's actually where good intentions often get stuck i think so the advice gets translated by people who weren't in the room and then you often see that yeah trade-offs get lost so we really see that yeah compliance alone means nothing to the consumer yet and that's something that is often overlooked it's often split in two different phases so you see that first translation from legislation, people that we are, is made towards an advice.

4:03And then it gets at the table of designers who are most of the time not directly involved in the sustainability or the advice phase. And that's actually a bridge that we try to make between these different phases. Yes, that sounds like a really useful and needed service for sure. Zooming in a bit more on that as well, what challenges would you say do companies face on the journey from sustainability direction to actual packaging design and then finally the product reaching the shelf yeah what we often see here is that really the the devil is actually in the detail maybe it's also nice to give an example of this we for example we did this for an insect repellent spray there was a design question that we got and the question was actually redesigning the insect repellent range they wanted to add more recycled content they wanted to use less material and they also dropped the folding carton that's around the spray the bottle and there of course first as the designers also integrating sustainability legislation we dive deep into the people that we are and how does this actually relate to the package that we had over there.

5:20But what we also saw here is that when you look at the product, there's biocide in it. And the problem with biocide is that it can be harmful for the recycling itself. And also the problem is in that people often never really empty this bottle fully. Because if you use it for a summer, for example, and then the next summer, you don't want to use it anymore, you already buy a new one. So most of these packages, they get already thrown away with residue stayed in. And then officially it belongs in household hazardous waste. That's what we found out. But that instruction sits in the really small print on the package.

6:04So consumer often think, well, it's plastic, so I can just throw it into the recycling bin. And what we did here was actually really practical so we just called the whole chain we called with dutch waste guidance the environmental information center and they first said well it's fine to put it into the plastic recycling if it's empty but then we also called with biocidal products regulation and they said well it's actually a hazardous waste so you definitely shouldn't put it in there at the moment in the netherland i think that's in europe uh water boards really worry about water quality so the insight we got here actually was that sorting plants they sort out by color with near infrared scanners and actually we didn't want this bottle because it should be hazardous weight we didn't want to have it ending up in the yeah the highest fraction because there where yeah, it has influence on the quality of the stream.

7:08So that's why we actually said, well, we don't have to design for recycling, but we actually have to design against recycling. So the biocide residue doesn't end up in the high quality recycling stream. And that was a really funny insight because then we could translate it into the design of this bottle. And then we actually said, well, let's not make it white as a high fraction, but let's make it dark green. because then it gets sorted in a different stream, a more low-grade stream, and there it can be less of a problem within the stream. And I think that's a really good example of where you see that if you make it really practical and also include the sustainability directions and things we know into the design phase, then you actually come up with a different outcome.

7:59And I think if you would only approach this from a sustainability and legislation perspective, you would probably end up with a white bottle. But the result is that, yeah, you have hazardous material inside the high value stream. Yes, that practical approach seems really sensible. I wanted to ask you a bit more about your process of how you work when you get a brief or how you work with your customers to come to an optimum solution for a specific pack. yeah well i think what makes us already really different is that design and legislation sits in one team so it's not that we internally have split teams um i think that's something we do differently and what we often do is that from the brief on we are already thinking about multiple concepts and how to integrate it so of course we also start with uh yeah translating the question into a list of requirements.

8:57But there we already include the sustainability and the regulation. But already early in the process, we often start with 3D concepts that include these principles, but also giving a direction of what this would mean for two-day design, because these two should be integrated as well. So yeah, we really try to combine that all in one process. And it's not that we have all these disciplines in house, like I explained for the example with the Biocides product. But we work network style. So we have many specialists around us that think along on these specific challenges because there are so many disciplines you should take into account.

9:39Even my friends, they always think that packaging is really a niche. It's really small until you dive into it. And then you really notice that it's related both to design and logistics and sustainability, of course, but also commerce, marketing, branding. There are so many disciplines that are related to it. So, yeah, the only thing we are not involved in is actually supplying the package. But because we are more into the 3D development as well, we know many producers and many converters. So we also advise our clients in the end on where to source their packages and what we would advise. We know about MOQs and everything.

10:21And I think that's something that's also really important to include at the same process. And not only as a design agency, deliver a design and step back and wish them good luck with sourcing it anywhere. Really try to combine that. And I think that's not really, yeah, it's not really common in the design agency world, let's say. Often you see this separated. So either you have an agency that really focuses on 2D design, or you have an agency that really focuses on the material legislation. And then it's often more advice, or they are really good at the technical part and coming up with 3D concepts.

11:03And that's really what we try to combine in our process already. yeah it sounds useful to have it all under one roof and get the full full package so to speak i thought it was funny about your friends saying about um all packaging is really niche i've had the same experience but then when you actually talk to them about it they realize oh yes it's it's actually everywhere yeah it's such a big industry and so many come together sometimes it's like solving a puzzle absolutely really fun great and i wanted to move on a bit to your plans at the sustainable packaging summit and first of all um you're planning to do some podcast recording there and i was keen to find out are there any conversations you particularly um looking forward to or excited um or sort of what what direction are you going to go with those what would be your plans indeed um i in generally i really look forward to the event again.

12:03I've been there the last years and it was so inspiring because you have the whole chain together at this event. But this year, actually, indeed, for the very first time, we are recording a series of different episodes live from the fair floor. And I think that's a really nice way to also get the conversations going. And we will have five one-on-one interviews, one per team. And And that is in different directions. First of all, of course, one of the episodes will be about BBWR, but also about the state that we are in right now. Because what we saw is at 12th of August, of course, already the first actions got into force.

12:46Many companies were working on this packaging data. And now some of the most of the global brands, of course, they already have set their goals for the coming years. But we also see more in the midsize companies is that they have many challenges with, OK, right now I have all the data, but what now and what's next? And how can we make that actually practical? And what's the next thing to do? And how do other companies approach that? So that's something we will definitely take into account. But we also have a little bit more surprising themes. for example we want to talk about packaging data sorting and ai because there we really see a chance how we can ai integrate in yeah the sorting and also translate those insights back into the design phase and that's of course something that we are personally also really related to we also think that there's again an interesting talk about reuse and of course we also have to integrate the yeah the design phase itself because we also see a shift for example going on from not only the package design in terms of recyclability but also the role of the packaging within the chain we see a focus shift that is also led by some big retailers and they are now also focusing about reducing error in the chain and by taking into account this perspective you often end up with a different design for example more squared design although it adds more material but sometimes in the whole chain if you look at the value chain and the impact it creates often sometimes it can be more interesting to add more material but in that way removing yeah empty space within the chain so i think that's a new perspective that we definitely discuss uh during the podcast but i cannot give it away all yet already because not all guests are offered but i would definitely advise to uh yeah pass by there yes we'll keep the suspense and obviously yeah we'll um link to your podcast as well once they're done and obviously look very much look forward to listening to them as well uh yeah so for people who have have now listened and are interested to find more about you or find you at the Sustainable Packaging Summit.

15:10Could you tell me like where your stand is and what your plans are for the stand? Yes, of course. Well, our stand is actually a combined stand because we are there with our parenting packaging agency and we also do the live hosting of the podcast. So we probably will be very busy, but therefore it also makes it interesting for people because what I forgot to mentioned in the last question is that we don't only record with guests, but we also will do a mixed episode where we ask many visitors to just join the podcast live for like one or two minutes, give their opinion about the event, which conversations they have over there.

15:50So it will also be really interactive. And besides that, for our packaging agency, of course, we bring some really interesting projects that we did over the last couple of time. and I think it's also a nice way to have the conversation at our stand about the integration of sustainability and the design phase because that's often overlooked so we see ourselves really as the anchor at this event for packaging design as well great thank you so make sure you check out now your next stand if you're up at a sustainable packaging summit so um yeah that brings us to the end of our conversation today thank you very much Emily for being here and answering my questions.

16:32Yes, thank you very much for the invitation, Elizabeth. It was really nice of you. You're very welcome. And yeah, as a reminder for anybody who might not know yet, the Sustainable Packaging Summit will take place at the Jaber's venue in Utrecht in the Netherlands from November 10th to November 12th. And you can get your tickets at sustainablepackagingsummit.org. So yeah, also make sure to subscribe to our podcast if you haven't done. so you don't miss out on any of your following episodes. Thanks very much and goodbye.