S11 EP12: Elizabeth Day

20:23Josh Widdicombe:Yeah. And now I'm so, so grateful for how many people listen and download and how big a community it has reached. And it has really changed my life in the most impactful ways. And we've gone from being seasonal to always on. And it does sometimes feel like I'm just going to be doing this until the sun burns itself out. And I'm grateful for it at the same time. Yeah. But as you all both know, it is a commitment. And I think a lot of people assume that doing a podcast is really easy and you just sort of wake up and have a chat with your mates. And I know that's very much your approach, but with me, the behemoth I am.

21:03Sometimes we don't wake up or chat. But you both know it's actually harder than it seems. And in order to keep producing something that I want to be worthy of those people who give up time to listen, who might pay to subscribe, who are going through something really difficult and just need to get a little bit of comfort on the other end of an AirPod. I never take that for granted, so I want to produce something that's good. So, yeah, it is a pressure, but it's one that I accept willingly. You've got such good morals. I don't think any of that. I do. I do. Don't worry. Even it for the money. What do you think, Rob?

21:39Me? Honestly. The other day when someone tagged me in it, I forgot we did a podcast. Because in my head, I just talked to you on a Monday. and then that's it. Then I just get on with my life. I wish I'd done that. Why didn't I just set up a podcast where I was just chatting to someone I love?

21:56Josh Widdicombe:Well, Rob doesn't love me, but thank you. Oh no, I'm prone to love you. I've always liked you. Oh, that's good. You haven't always liked me. Elizabeth, can I ask a question? I saw something when I was doing some slight research, which I don't always do. You've got 10 godchildren. Now, I don't want to embarrass you, but I've actually got 13. Oh dear. It's gone up since the last time I wrote about it. Yes, I have loads of godchildren and I really love it because, and this is part of the reason I'm so moved that you're having me on this podcast, because I am not a parent in the conventional sense.

22:31And I have spent years trying and failing to have my own baby and I'm at peace with it now and I've let it go. But one of the amazing side effects of that is that a lot of my friends have asked me to be a godmother. and I think it's because they think well she's got lots of disposable income that she's not using on her own progeny and maybe she'll be good for work experience one day and even if that is why they've asked me I'm very grateful because it is such a beautiful thing are either of you godparents I'm not no and what I think I'm hooking up all the godchildren out there you're like the tech

23:10Josh Widdicombe:bros you've nicked him the money you've nicked him the godchildren can i ask like godchildren in the traditional sense have you renounced satan yes 13 times 13 times you hate that guy what's your problem with him it's almost suspicious i have to keep renouncing him the lady does protest too much actually i have to say i've only done that once because it's more of an honorific well that's what i was going to kind of say it's like you imagine it in the old sense of not to put too bleak an edge on it but one of the things is if the parents die you look after the children and there's all what is being a godparent and are they different kind of relationships the 13 yes you can't give a fuck by the seven can you no offense to your god children but first one you're buzzing second this is fun three look at me four one or five six jesus christ christmas is gonna kill me I have to say my first one does have a special place in my heart.

24:10You know, I was writing her little postcards when I was on holiday and she's just turned 16 and just on her GCSEs. And I'm super proud of her, but they all are individual relationships. And the way that I see it is I send them presents. That's basically, that's the extent of it. I will be really great at sending them a present for birthdays and Christmas. And part of the reason I am so militant about that is because I had two godmothers who I loved dearly, but they weren't always the best present givers. And my older sister had godparents who gave her fucking amazing gift. I was just always so jealous.

24:49And so it's a promise I've made myself along with promising to renounce Satan is to be a very good gift giver. And now some of my godchildren are old enough that I can WhatsApp them and I have an independent relationship and I'll meet up with them for tea if they're in London and that kind of stuff. And it's really, really lovely.

25:05Josh Widdicombe:What month are you starting the purchase of 13 separate Christmas presents and how much are they personalised? Honestly, that is one of the biggest events of the year and it is a logistical nightmare. And I think it's 98 % of the reason that I hired an assistant.

25:27Because you're set up at home, you've got two nieces as well and then your husband's got three children from a previous relationship. So there's a lot going on. Oh my God, there's so much going on. And also for someone who is a nauseating people pleaser. So I've got this really inbuilt pressure to get the perfect gift for every single individual so that they like me more. I've had to slightly let that go now. Tell me if you've been Josh.

25:57I used to have this idea that I would start in a very organized fashion, kind of beginning of November. And then there'd be like a sort of Hollywood movie montage, like a Nora Ephron film, where I'd be getting like curlicues of red ribbon and beautiful sort of themed wrapping paper. Or I'd really enjoy it. And I'd make some mulled wine and I'd put on some Christmas shoes. That never happened. It was always a mad frantic dash in the final weeks before Christmas. And then I discovered an incredible website, hashtag not an ad, but it is called Wicked Uncle and you can go on that website and you can search according to age and gender should you want to and they come up with really unique and original presents so I

26:40Josh Widdicombe:use that for a good few years yeah because I once my daughter say she was five she got a birthday present in October from a couple and then about a month later I was buying a Christmas present for a five-year-old and I typed into Amazon presents for five-year-old girls and the first thing that came up was what my daughter had received a month earlier and I thought absolutely bang to rights I know what you've done it there's no way that's a coincidence you've just literally put those words in but this way it's impossible though to do buy that many presents for kids that's what Martin Lewis says just like stop you have to draw a line at Christmas to save everyone money you're not always getting a good present everyone's exchanging shit ones they don't want so they don't look rude Well, unless they have me as a godmother, in which case you're going to get a unique and much-loved gift that you keep from any of your...

27:30So your assistant's going to pick. Well, yeah, fair do you say. I do think I might pivot to just saying I'm putting money aside. I don't know. I think I'm going to have to stop when they reach 18, though. I think that's part of the deal. Would you not have a premium bonds pot that then you split 30? Oh, my granddad. Sorry, what is the fucking 1960s? Could you not enter them in the pools? is it bonds yeah it's premium bonds premium bonds and it might pay out and it all goes back in the pot and then you split it when they're 18 yeah but it's not the most exciting present to receive is it one word isa just get them an isa can you refuse to be a godparent and if so is it awkward you can i've not done that because of the aforementioned people pleasing

28:18Josh Widdicombe:and did you discuss whether there was like responsibilities because that is the thing is the godparents originally were we get the kids if something terrible happens right my understanding is that in modern times those two things are separate that's not legally upstanding yeah i might be wrong in which case i hope i don't suddenly become a mum of 13 because that would be a tragedy in so many ways i'd say if you became a mum of 13 because all of those parents had passed away, you'd be the prime suspect in a serial killer inquiry. They'd be having a look at my wicked uncle history. That's the motivation.

28:52Would you have me back on the podcast, though, if I suddenly became mum of a student? What, from prison? Yes. Anyway, I think those two things are separate now. Right. And so I have been asked to be a guardian for two of my godchildren, but not all of them. And so other than the whole renouncing Satan thing once, there's never been much of a discussion around responsibilities but because my friends are so lovely the more godchildren i've accumulated the more my friends have said don't bother sending presents that you don't need to do that honestly just your your presence is presence enough i ignore them and still send presents just create a rod for my own back because stress feels familiar to me so um i'm still sending the presents but that's the only conversation that i've had And how old are your kids from your husband's previous relationship?

29:41How old are they? Are they still in the household? They're not. So they are, they're kind of, well, apart from one, adults now. I'm having to get used to calling the two boys men, which is a weird thing. His eldest is 21. His middle is 19. And they're the boys slash men. And then his youngest is his daughter, who has just turned 16. Right. Okay. So she is obviously, she's still living with her mom.

30:05Josh Widdicombe:Yeah. To take that on is, I mean, obviously everyone's aware of it, it is a really difficult hand to play, right? Because you don't know what your kind of, not what your role is, but because you're not a parent, but you are, so have you got authority? All those kind of questions. Yes. How does that work? It is really challenging for every party involved, particularly the children who are the only ones who didn't have a say in this new relationship. and it's something that I'm really interested in talking about to other step parents because we don't feel that we can speak honestly about it a lot of the time because it does involve so many other people and it is so specific and what I will say about this particular scenario it's not my first experience of step parenting and so I was very aware of what was involved and when I met Justin, who is now my husband, and we met through Hinge.

30:59And we went on our first date, got on well, went on our second date. And because of the age we were, and because he had three kids, the dynamics got serious quite quickly. And we had a really honest conversation about his kids. And he said, the one thing they don't need is another parent. They've got two parents already. And he and his ex really do a terrific job of co-parenting. And they had sorted out their separation, their divorce way before I came on the scene. And it was a very generous thing for him to say. And also it was very accurate because his kids don't need me to be a parent. What his kids need is to feel loved and secure and that their parents are going to continue being their parents.

31:46And I'm not going to interfere with that. And because they were a bit older as well, their dad and I have been together for seven years now. And so they were a bit older. And I've realized over time that my role is to be a support system for their family, is to be a support system for their dad. And then it's to show up as myself within that. Because I think one of the worst things you can do is to pretend to be someone you're not in the attempt to show that you're a really good parental figure. And I was guilty of that for a bit. And I think it ties in. That's hard as being a people pleaser, like you said, you are.

32:23It must be really difficult to not be like, hi guys, can I get this? Can I get you that? You know what I mean? Yes, it is exactly that. You've nailed it. And I also think there was part of me during those years where I was going through lots of fertility treatment and having recurrent miscarriages and trying to have my own child. I think looking back, there was part of me that was trying to show, look, I'd be a really good mum. And actually...

32:45Josh Widdicombe:Oh no, there's someone at the door of my hotel room. Perfect Simon. Oh my gosh, just so sorry. No, don't worry at all. Poor Elizabeth's opening up now, you're getting the maids there. The behemoth is opening up. The behemoth opens up. What makes it feel better is you can genuinely feel the panic in his voice. Yes. What was it, Josh? A man who wanted to check the minibar. Oh. I've only been in here for two hours. What does he think I'm up to? I can't pass midday. That was suspicious, isn't it? And you're sober now. I know. Smashed for our intrusions. He said we're concerned about you. You've taken a hotel room during the day.

33:18Josh Widdicombe:We think you might have fallen off the wagon. Sorry, Elizabeth. No, don't worry at all. Yeah, well, I think it was actually really liberating letting go of that and realising that I could be myself, not only that I could be myself, but that that's what would be best for everyone involved. And just for listeners to confirm, Justin is Justin Fletcher from Mr. Tumble, correct? What a terrifying, terrifying idea. He's a great parent as is. So let's go on to a, I was going to use the phrase fertility journey and then I wanted to punch myself in the face because I think that's an awful phrase. It's awful, but it's also the best one we have and I use it all the time.

33:59So go ahead. Do you? Yeah.

34:01Josh Widdicombe:Okay, yeah. So how long did you try for? For a decade? Yeah, 12 years. 12 years. Oh my word. And you suffered three miscarriages. Yes. That's really intense. Yeah. It's hard. Yes. That's what I would say is a difficult segue from the Mr. Tumble chat. Yes. I mean, I think you've been scrambling uphill since you've opened the door of the room. All I can say is I'm relieved he didn't turn up in five minutes. That would have worked. That is a long time to go through with it. There must have been periods during that where you were like, is this worth carrying on with? What keeps you going in that situation?

34:40Definitely. And I just want to preface all of this by saying, genuinely, I am so grateful to you both for having me on your podcast because you can so often feel excluded in a world of parents when you're going through fertility treatment. And when I was going through it, you know, I started when I was 32 and I was married to a different person then. And at the time that I was trying and failing to hold on to a pregnancy, so many of my contemporaries were having babies. And it became something that I was determined to do. And I think that there were so many years within that period of time where I didn't question whether I wanted it, how much I wanted it, because as anyone who has been through fertility treatment will know, the question itself is unhelpful because it's so difficult to go through.

35:39You have to be so committed to it. And the reason I kept going was because I fully believed that it was in my future to have a child and that I had to get through these processes in order to achieve that inevitable and much yearned for outcome. And so as long as I was having medical professionals telling me, you just need to go one more time, you just need to try one more time, I would listen to them. And also you're stuck in this hormonal hellscape where for me, it's like, it felt like I lost touch with who I was, let alone my own desires. and so a lot of the time I was doing it because other people said I should and I include in that a lot of my friends who were so supportive and so wonderful and when I lacked the strength they held the hope for me and I'm forever grateful for that and I did really really really want it and I should say it wasn't just 12 years of constant trying so within that time I got divorced forced I had my first miscarriage within that marriage which was a kind of catalyst for the end of that marriage then I was single for a bit then I froze my eggs then I met Justin and I thought at that stage okay I can try and be at peace with a future without children but then we got pregnant naturally and then it just showed us both how much we wanted it and then we started jointly doing fertility treatment together and to cut a long story short the pandemic happened And again, fertility treatment went on hold.

37:19I had another miscarriage during lockdown, which was horrendous. And then when lockdown restrictions lifted, we were like, okay, let's try egg donation. Because at that stage I was 42. And so getting on a bit and we tried egg donation and everything seemed to be aligned and got the most amazing donor, amazing embryo. And then that didn't work. And that was so crushing and so devastating because I felt as though I had done everything quote unquote right this time. I was like, I've come to terms with the fact it's not going to be my own egg, all of this sort of stuff. And then that didn't work. And that moment really made me pause.

37:56And I thought, instead of focusing on what I don't have, how about I'm grateful and focus on what I do have, which is an amazing, loving relationship that I'm so grateful for. And I'm lucky that I'm in a good marriage. And I also have a really creatively fulfilling career. So I have my podcast. I also write my books and that in and of itself is a way of creating. And I experimented with what it would be like just to tell myself I wasn't going to do any more fertility treatment. And it actually felt amazing. And I felt relieved and at peace. And I had to come to terms with the fact that sometimes quitting is not failure.

38:41Sometimes quitting instead of persisting is one of the most powerful things you can do. And so that's the stage that I'm at now. That's really inspiring. It must have been quite liberating as well in a way to go just draw a line under it rather than sort of flogging yourself about it each day. It really was. And it's why I'm passionate about talking on this topic, because I think as a society, we have so many people who go through fertility issues and thank goodness people are talking about it more, but generally speaking, their story ends with the conventional happy ending of having a baby in their arms.

39:17And I wanted to speak for those people who have tried so, so hard and they've done everything that they can, and they have failed at this thing that they thought they wanted, because I want to tell that person, if they're going through it right now, There is so much peace and hope on the other side, whatever the other side contains. And it might be that you end up with your baby, but it might be that you have my experience, which is that you can parent in so many different ways in this world. And you can also show up for yourself. And there are amazing things about not being a parent. And I'm very grateful for all of that.

39:55Josh Widdicombe:Your latest novel was written just after you kind of made this decision and you kind of threw yourself into, like you say, you've got a creatively fulfilling career that you can kind of create something. And like that was something that you used to deal with this transition? Definitely. So I started writing this new novel, I would say, in about March 2023. It's called One of Us. It's called One of Us. Thank you. Look at you, you pro. There you go. Putting that title in. Yes. It's called One of Us. And it's available in all good bookshops. 25th of September, actually. Yes. It's out. Thank you. Thank you.

40:35Absolutely. And I started writing it the month after I had decided to let go of any future fertility treatment. and actually as you both identified I felt really liberated and I felt really free and I felt like I could be myself and maybe that would be enough and alongside that of course there was sadness and grief and there always will be but I had this like surge of creative energy and I wrote this book without feeling I had to prove something about myself. It was so interesting. So that idea of having to prove that I would be a good mother, that I deserve to be a parent, having let go of that almost unlocked this other side, which is like, I don't have to prove myself to be a certain kind of author either.

41:28I'm just going to write the book that I want to write. It kind of poured out of me. And yeah, One of Us, it's a multi-voice narrative. It's the most fun I've ever had writing a book. I hope it's funny as well. And it picks up where a previous book of mine, The Party, left off. You don't need to have read it beforehand, though. And it tells the story of a character called Martin Gilmore who struggles to belong. And all he wants, it's a bit like Josh, all he wants is to love and to be loved in return. He just wants to belong. And very often that love isn't reciprocated. And he's become slightly fixated on his best friend from a posh boarding school.

42:12And he's invited back into that kind of family fold that he wants to be part of. But I use that as a device to look at where we are as a country as well. Because I find that so often we fall in love with the people who damage us, and we elect them too. and very often the people that we elect don't care about us in the way that we want them to or the way that we imagine that they will so there's a whole political narrative to it as well

42:38Josh Widdicombe:and did you write it and feel like you know they often say like when you write a book you find out what it's about by writing it right and did you find that you were although it's not directly about what you'd been through and the stage you're at did any of it reflect back this kind of the state of where you were that's such a great question thank you i i you're right she likes me good to tick yeah i do i really like you i like you both and josh you're very good friends with susie ruffle who i adore so i am yes she's great oh that's a good sign so you're in you're in um you've got uh godchildren 14 and 15 coming your way at the end of this thank you because i always feel 30s are slightly unlucky numbers that's perfect your gift from wicked uncle is on its way so that's a great question and I am one of those writers who only finds out what she's writing about when and preferably after I've written it and someone else has told me what I've written about I find it quite hard when someone asks me what the themes are because my novels are very character driven but I think you've hit on something there which is I didn't explicitly write a character who was going through fertility treatment and experiencing recurrent miscarriage.

43:55I have written that character before, actually, in my previous novel, Magpie, but I did write a mother. There's one character called Serena, who is my age, and she's the mother of four children. And I really enjoyed writing her for multiple reasons, one of which is that she is perimenopausal, and so was I when I was writing it. And I wanted to write an accurate representation of that in fiction. But also because she's a mother who, she comes from a certain social demographic. She's part of the kind of aristocratic elites. And so she has been conditioned to kind of be close to her children, but not too close and to send them all off to boarding school.

44:36And she's come to this point in her life where she's losing that previous identity. And she's realizing that she wants more love in her life and she actually wants to be closer to her children. And so writing that journey was healing for me because I realized that I had the capacity to write as a mother and to hopefully understand what it was to want to be a present mother. And in a way, that's one way of experiencing parenting. So yes, it was definitely in it in that respect. And there's also a character who I write from the perspective of being her daughter. So there's a character called Cosima.

45:14She's 17. She's going through a lot of sort of adolescent stuff. And that was really healing as well, to be able to understand the pressures of adolescence. And again, I get this privileged window into that through not only my stepchildren, but my godchildren and my nieces. And so that was really fun to put on the page as well. Did you find there was a freedom writing this book then? Because when you sort of made the decision not to carry on with the fertility treatment and stuff like that like really your life's been sort of success and like doing the right thing at the right time as society would say you know you went to Cambridge and got first and then became a journalist and then you got book deals and you wrote these amazing novels started a podcast that went great got married all the little sort of things you hit and like you say then your friends started having children and then you didn't did you have a sort of almost like a belligerent no I'm gonna do it because that's what everyone else is doing and I have to do it?

46:04Was that quite a draining sort of approach to it? Definitely. And I think a lot of women listening to this and possibly men will relate to that, that kind of good girl notion of, I want to do everything that's expected of me. And I want to do it really, really well, because Josh, you'll relate to this. It will make me fundamentally lovable. I will be accepted. If I do everything quote unquote right at the right time, then there'll be no reason for anyone to leave me. There'll be no reason for me to lose a job. I'll keep myself safe. And of course, it doesn't work out like that. Because in trying to keep yourself safe, you're essentially outsourcing your life to other people's opinions or what you perceive their opinions might be of you.

46:48And you never find out who you are, unless as was my experience, you're confronted with something that doesn't go according to plan. And you're confronted with the truth of yourself in that moment. And for me, it actually started with fertility and divorce. And that all happened in my early 30s. And then throughout that decade, and it was a hugely transitional decade for me. So that little potted biography you were kind enough to give me just then, I hit certain milestones. But what a professional CV will never show you is the underbelly, which is all the stuff that was going wrong. And the failure that I felt not being able to do something that I thought I would be able to do.

47:34And beyond that, feeling like my body was letting me down because it's a sort of, in my head, it was a biological failure. So it wasn't even something that I could work harder at and get a better exam result for. I just was at the mercy of my body. And so there was also a period of sort of reconnecting with my physical self. And that's been my experience of my forties. It's like, I feel so powerful now in my forties, having come face to face with a lot of this stuff. And to go back to your original point, yes, I feel so liberated by it as well. Because if I'm not going to be a mother in the conventional sense, then I want my life to have meaning and I want to make that meaning, whether it is writing a book, doing a podcast, or whether it's just going on a great holiday with friends or ensuring that I have a really nice dinner with my partner.

48:31That is my way of making meaning in this lifetime. That refresh you've been putting off until the right deal came along? It's here. Wayfair's Black Black Friday in July sale is happening now, so you can finally get the style you've been waiting for for less. Get up to 80 % off area rugs and up to 60 % off outdoor and bedroom furniture. Shop Wayfair's huge selection of styles and find the piece to fit your style, budget, and space. Plus, free shipping. Black Friday in July ends July 27th. Shop today at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.

49:04Josh Widdicombe:And do you find, like, so we had a miscarriage between our two children. I'm so sorry. But it worked out. Well, that's what you say is it worked out. But one of the things with it was in that period just after it, the bitterness I felt towards, I remember close friends of ours becoming pregnant and I fucking hated them. Do you know what I mean? Because you're like, that's your gut reaction, right? And also people's reactions to you obviously are, oh God, are you okay? All these kinds of things. Did it affect your friendships with other people who were kind of, you know, not just in that you felt bitter towards them, but they felt awkward around you about whether they could tell you they were pregnant, all these kind of things.

49:49Josh Widdicombe:Did that happen? Yes, it definitely affected all of my relationships, I would say, and friendships too. And I wrote a book about friendship called Friendaholic, and I devoted an entire chapter to how it feels when all of your friends are having babies and you can't. It was incredibly difficult. And talking about the span of my fertility experience. So my first miscarriage was in 2014. And it's hard to remember now, but back then, and it's not even that long ago, but there was still such a stigma of silence around it. And actually, people didn't know what to say when I told them, which was partly why I became passionate subsequently about talking and writing about it, because I wanted people to know that I'm sorry is a complete sentence.

50:40And that was difficult trying to navigate that silence because it made me feel as though my miscarriage didn't count. I mean, I actually had a loved one say to me, can't you treat it as a heavy period? And this was a miscarriage I had at three months. Like I was in hospital over the weekend. It was so traumatic in so many respects. and I'm glad now that we are having these conversations and props to you Josh for talking about it from a male perspective as well and a society has become much more open. Now there were certain friendships that fell by the wayside during this time because they couldn't understand what it was to be me.

51:17I don't mind that but what I do mind is the lack of compassionate curiosity to find out and the lack of the question and even if you feel awkward asking the question there was sort of lack of compassion around it and there were some people who just assumed that I was very career focused and that this couldn't possibly interest me and there were others who said oh why don't you come around and babysit for us because you know it'd be good practice for you and actually like that's the last thing you want to do when you've gone through a miscarriage spoiler alert it's like one of the last things you want to do having said that the friends who were there for me and who are my dearest friends still were unbelievable.

51:58And I don't know what I would have done without their love. And it's actually a really interesting thing to go through in terms of showing you what you value about friendship. But like you, Josh, yeah, I definitely have my periods of kind of bitterness and anger and hurt and upset because that's what it is. It's like sometimes your sadness is so heavy and uncomfortable for you to carry that it comes out masked as anger and bitterness and stuff that you can kind of make fun of in yourself like do you know what I mean and I have to say it's not that I no longer have that it's that I'm much more at peace with it and I understand that when I have that feeling it will pass and it's transient and it's part of my process but at the moment I feel like fucking every single celebrity is pregnant like everyone everyone is having a baby and that can be quite difficult and another bloody mail online like someone revealing their scan or whatever and actually that's why I'm very grateful for the community that has you know the trick

53:01Josh Widdicombe:there is to not go on mail online I don't think anyone's left the mail online happier than when they went on it I think if that's true because sometimes there are just such batshit stories that really do tickle me we were talking about Melinda Messager seeing a UFO earlier have you seen this no it wasn't a baby scan was it all confused you know guys as someone you know very fortunate not to have gone through miscarriage with me and Lou it's like you know you said your friend some friends didn't handle it well some did what is a good way to handle it because obviously you know if your friends are going through something like that you never really know what to say you don't want to say too much or nothing what helps and what doesn't or is it very individual do you find out you know you obviously can't speak for everyone but that's such a beautiful question.

53:48And I think saying, I'm so sorry, is enough. Genuinely, that single sentence acknowledges that there is something worth grieving. Because when you miscarry, it's a strange kind of grief in that you are grieving both a presence and an absence. you were pregnant but you never had the child but the moment you know you're pregnant you start imagining the baby that you will have you start thinking about names you start thinking about which playgrounds you're going to go to and so you're also mourning the end of that dream and I think someone acknowledging that with that single sentence is so incredibly healing and And something that my best friend Emma said to me was, even if you have never experienced exactly the same thing as your loved one is going through, you can say to them, I can't hope to understand.

54:53But what I do understand is that you need me and need me to be here in whatever capacity. And she gave this example. One of the most loving things that a friend did for me when I had a miscarriage during lockdown was without even asking turned up at my doorstep and left a bag of shopping on the doorstep of all of my favorite things and doing something that practical and thoughtful is so unbelievably loving and was so moving I'm getting choked up just now thinking about it talk me through the favorite things Elizabeth oh good now finally we're getting to the deep questions we really got a crime we could have clickbaited that sorry sorry that's what Bartlett would sit in the silence

55:36Josh Widdicombe:It's just going to be terrible to do Lutheran or Barley. You can't cope with a silence. Talk to me about the yogurt. Now talk to me about the bag. What was in that bag? Okay, aubergine. Sorry, I know that. Fucking hell. Let's go back to crying. I'm close to tears with that first item. There was aubergines, marmite, crumpets. I really am the most middle-class person you might ever have had on this podcast. I think they were chocolate digestives, my favourite biscuit. It's a good line-up apart from the aubergines. It's just someone's thinking about you, isn't it? And not trying to give you an answer or a solution.

56:12Because that's what you get. The problem with children and having children or trying to have children and not having children is it's a multi-generational conversation that dominates everyone's life. So just a random auntie will go, when are you having kids then? You'd never say to anyone, when are you going to Mexico on holiday? Do you know what I mean? But having kids is something that you are asked about all the time. And then whatever you say, there's further questions. and especially with like miscarriages and stuff like that you know i've heard older family members go have you tried chilling out a bit oh my god that's good isn't it and you're like shut up they don't need ideas i can tell you the worst things you can say like have you considered adoption okay okay adoption is an amazing thing to consider but i can guarantee you anyone who has gone through a current miscarriage and years of fertility treatment unsuccessfully will have not only considered adoption they will have done shit loads towards researching every single element of it.

57:04And it's very often something that someone says when they are a parent and they have had no issues parenting whatsoever. And actually the adoption process is not something that you can enter into in a sort of lighthearted, breezy way. There's so much work and consideration that goes into it. And that in and of itself can take years and should do, because it's such an important, crucial thing. So things like that, that are just sort of assuming that you haven't sort of considered like, yeah, have you tried just going on holiday with your partner, just relaxing a bit? I've heard that stress. All of that is so annoying.

57:37Having said that, this is a very personal thing to me. And so I'm not sure it definitely wouldn't work for everyone. But when I made the decision to stop fertility treatments and to stop trying, I had a couple of very, very close friends of mine tell me the truth about parenting, saying really truthfully, you know, I love my children, but it can be an absolute nightmare. And this is why, and this is how I feel. And I was really grateful to them for telling me that. It wasn't something that I could have heard when I was going through all of the fertility treatment and I just had to keep my spirits alive.

58:11But actually it made me realize that we can fall into this trap of telling ourselves one single story about something that we really, really want, that we are going to have a baby and it's going to be amazing. It's going to be like a field of lavender and we're going to gamble off into the sunshine and your child is going to love you so much and it's all going to be wonderful and you will feel understood for the first time and actually as you will both know far

58:35Josh Widdicombe:better than I do that's not the whole story we built a career on it Elizabeth we built a career on it yeah there we go but it's true that we often say this you know like Lou's had to take a career break and her sort of career suffered because we prioritized my career for boring financial reasons and stuff like that so she's had to take a career break and massively took an impact on that and her career we love the kids to pieces and we never change anything but we both wanted to live abroad and work abroad at some point for like a long time but we've not been able to do that because we've had kids and all these things which is fine it's not me complaining but there are so many other opportunities and ways to have an amazing fulfilling life that could go one way that we can't have because we've gone down the route of having children and stuff like that so it's not just a sharp shop of this is the best way and that isn't you know there's so many opportunities out there But if you're dwelling on one, then you will make it something that hangs over your own head in a way, I think.

59:27Exactly. And actually, I've just thought of another thing that you shouldn't say to people who might be going through fertility treatment, which is you'll understand when you finally have your baby, you will never have felt love like it. You will totally understand what love is. And that might be true, but it's such an upsetting thing to hear.

59:43Josh Widdicombe:It's not ideal. I can see from the outside why that was not ideal. No. And my response to that after a while internal, because I would never say it because hashtag people pleaser, was, well, by the same token, you will never know what my experience has been. And the love that I have felt for the children of mine who haven't been born, you will never understand that. You'll never understand the love that I've experienced from my friends and family when I'm going through it. So you will, by the same token, never understand what it is not to have a child and to go through years of wanting one. Elizabeth, have you ever told anyone to fuck off?

1:00:20In my own head, I have. Just let one out. Not in an aggressive way. When they go, have you ever did it? Just go, do you mind fucking off? You've inspired me. You've inspired me to do that. But actually, when I wrote that chapter in the book about friendship, it was so interesting because when it came, it was a nonfiction book. And when it came to doing the audio narration, I realised how angry I was when I was writing that chapter. And it kind of all came out in that way. But no, I've never said fuck off directly to someone's face. But watch someone's face. To someone's face, back of the red under your breath, definitely.

1:00:57Josh Widdicombe:Thanks so much for doing this, because obviously, you know, it's such a difficult thing to talk about, but it's so, so worthwhile. And also great to get those items in the bag confirmed. The Aubergine and the Marmite. It's really good to get into the nitty gritty there, Josh. There is a couple of other things we'd like to do at the end, Elizabeth, before obviously we'll re-mention all those books, is do you believe in aliens? I do believe in aliens, but not in the Hollywood sense. Yeah. I believe that there is an alternate life space that humans can't hope to understand. So whether it's collective consciousness or whether it's sort of alien life forms, yes, I totally believe in all of that.

1:01:44Josh Widdicombe:Yeah. That was a new question. We got into whether Barry Hearn believed in aliens before we recorded with Barry Hearn. And I thought, do you know what? It got a good answer then. I'm going to see what the alternate is. I think we're going to find out over the next few months that every single person we interviewed believes in aliens in some sort. Yeah, I don't think it's going to be a regular feature. Well, we'll see. It could be a spin-off podcast though. Josh on his own with six listeners That's when it comes to Do You Believe in Aliens You pop on for 10 seconds Do you believe in aliens and when's the film out Brilliant we'll see Thank you for the promo And you're on tour Okay cool Honestly though it's so important to talk about that stuff We've had loads of people in the past asking For people to come on to talk about fertility journeys And stuff like that when they've been successful or unsuccessful So thank you so much for sharing Because it's really important And there'll be so many people that feel seen and appreciate that So thank you Thank you both so much for giving me this platform.

1:02:39I really can't tell you how much I appreciate it. And thank you beyond that for being two really good people who are also really funny. And it's just a joy to share this Beermoth podcasting space with you. The old mammoth crew. Look at us. What a loving. The Beermoth boys and girls. We will call it the mammoth podcast, this one.

1:02:59Josh Widdicombe:Do you want to do the final question, Rob, seeing as I stole the alien one? Of course, final question. we ask everything. What does your partner do as a parent that sort of really inspires you and thinks, God, he's amazing at being a parent. That's unbelievable. And I know you're not a sort of stepmother in the traditional sense, but is there something he does as well that frustrates you, that annoys you a little bit about being a parent? But you can feel free to answer both or none at all. Okay, I'll do the negative one first. It doesn't annoy me. I thought you were going to swear that, fair enough.

1:03:27No, you're fine. It doesn't annoy me, but I think it's weird. I know it's not weird and the reason I think it's weird is probably to do with my age because I was born in 1978 I'm too old to know whether that makes me a geriatric millennial or a gen xer but I think it's a gen x so I grew up without technology now my husband tracks all of his children which I think probably all parents do but I still find it a bit odd it's a bit like that iPhone how often looking at it pretty often because especially because like his middle one just went backpacking in thailand so you could be like oh he's at the youth hostel in phuket oh god that's terrifying now isn't it yes i would find it really stressful he's at the mushroom milkshake yeah exactly he's at the cbd outlet in koh samui anyway so that's that one and then the thing that inspires me He is just an integrity-filled parent, by which I mean that he brings his whole self to the task.

1:04:30So he is incredibly trustworthy. His children know that he will always show up for them, sometimes uninvited because he's been tracking them, so he'll show up at the bus stop at 3am. But he will show up for them when they most need him, and he will show up as a fully sort of trustworthy, authentic individual. It's a bit boring, isn't it? He's also an amazing cook. No, that's not the best parent in his boring. You need to be there to show up and that they're bored of seeing you. That's the best thing I think you can be as a parent is there for them when they need it. Yeah. 25th of September. Sometimes when they haven't asked for it.

1:05:04Sorry, sorry, I interrupted the promo. Go ahead, Josh.

1:05:07Josh Widdicombe:He's got a great intro. He's going to do a great outro now. This book, I think it is a mammoth chance of it hitting the Times top 10. One of Us, September the 25th. Are you doing any big, do you do like book tours and book readings and stuff? Do you? I do. Do you enjoy that or do you find it stressful? I love it. Michael has told me you've got a hard out and to finish the interview. So I shouldn't have asked that. Sorry, Elizabeth. But actually you're so, this is so impressive because I've still got two minutes to my next meeting and you've really ended bang on time. He needs time for you to upload the files, Elizabeth.

1:05:38Josh Widdicombe:No, sorry. I need to go. Yes. I go on that tour. I love it. I didn't think you could end it worse than we started it. It's amazing. You basically asked someone a question and told them not to answer it. I'm sorry, I panicked. I don't know what to do now to make you like me, Josh, but to ensure that I'm punctual for the next people. No, I've got it, Elizabeth. Just tell him to fuck off and we'll end it. Oh yeah, brilliant. Both of you, just fuck off. Perfect. Thank you, Elizabeth.