S11 EP13: Paul C. Brunson

27:49The world knows who Kendrick Lamar is. Yeah, I might know that one, yeah. And so heavily involved, like, because obviously there's some parents, like, you know, when I was playing computer games or whatever as a kid, that was, I suppose, the equivalent of a thing that was not in my parents' childhood that was in my childhood. But you are across it all. And are you involved because you are interested? Or are you involved because you feel it's kind of your duty as a parent? That's a great question. I feel it is a great question. That's a top 10 podcast question, that is. Your researcher did a great job.

28:25This team we've got are unbelievable. 10 or 12 of them just even away. Oh, my God. I'm truly a big kid. we've established that in the first one so I'm the parent who probably does the inappropriate things in terms of like someone a gamer as well yeah uh so I was playing mortal combat you know with my seven-year-old is that still going around is that still a guy well I'm more so call of duty right type person now but but I would do call of duty you know with with an eight-year-old when you probably shouldn't do that yeah should you really be put in charge of matching people

29:03but it's one of those where i talk about everything with my children yeah nothing is filtered in our house like i remember when i was doing this goes out really bizarre but i was doing research on sexual organs and i had this chart in my house and the chart was because i saw that that most women and virtually all men can't distinguish between a vagina and a vulva. Right. Yeah. And so I had this, a diagram and my boys were like, what's that? And I was like, oh, it's a vulva. Yeah. And I begin explaining, my wife is there. Okay. This is a vulva. This is a vagina. This is, this is what happens. And so in my household growing up, I don't think my father could say vagina today.

29:47Like I don't think he can say it. You know what I mean? so you can smell vulva never mind find it you drive one yeah you drove one yeah you drove one for years but so i guess to answer that question is that i genuinely love it yeah i had you down as like you know having deep like my questions were going to be like well do you have that playful side with your kids because we always see you as that sort of like sometimes intense sort of intellectual sort of deep feelings guy but that you obviously so you you marry that up with a real sort of immature sort of silliness of fart bombs, as well as having those serious conversations.

30:22How do you jump between that then? It's like the one show.

30:28There's no joints. For us, that's parenting. You know, when I think about emotions, like, so every Sunday in my home, we play reggae, ska, dance hall. Like we're very Jamaican centric in the household because of my heritage. but in that we will literally have a conversation around the song so last weekend we were playing reggae it was bob marley's uh crazy bald heads right so my son is joking me he's like you're a crazy bald head dad yeah and i was like but do you know what that song actually means and so we start examining the lyrics and i would ask what do you think bob's emotion was when he wrote that Why did he feel that way?

31:09And it's one of those where we'll jump into the seriousness, but at the same time, they'll joke me that, hey, dad's a crazy ballhead. Yeah, and you say, you need to worry. It's coming your way as well. It's all in the genes. Exactly. I was like, it is coming to you, whether you like it or not. Although now the funny thing is, is my boy is crazy. At 11, my boy was like, I'm just going to Turkey. Oh, Pedro's not, yeah. He's like, I'm going to Turkey. He's like, I'm going for my teeth. I'm going for everything. I was like, okay. And so are you really open then? Like, is it a really open dialogue?

31:46Is that what you kind of teach, if that makes sense? Within our household, it's an open dialogue. So what we try to hold to, one of the rituals is family dinner every night together. And family dinner is a no judgment zone. You could talk about anything and you won't be judged. you won't be punished actually for anything that you say. So dinner becomes this open conversation where we'll talk about George Floyd, Donald Trump, you know, politics to my son went to a dance and he has eight phone numbers. And what that means, it's this open space. We try to maintain that. Who cooks out of you and your partner?

32:26Is it like whoever's in or, because you must have a busy schedule. Does it happen every night? It's terrible. Deliveroo is the cook now. Welcome to South London. I'm a diamond member on Deliveroo. It's one of those where that's the sacrifice, I think. But almost every night we make time for it. So I even try to work my schedule so that I'll get back on time. If I'm filming and I can't make it, my wife typically will wait for me. So sometimes Mary at First Sight, those commitment ceremonies, we won't end until midnight or 1 a.m. and she will wait for me. Oh, really? Yes. And we'll at least have a meal together when we get back.

33:09So we try to hold on to that. The other thing is that if I'm traveling for a project and I'm gone for over 10 days, we go together. We always go together. So we always try to lock that in. So for us, it's just time on task. The more we can spend time together, that's the most important key. And when you're that busy actually cooking the food, that can slip and then just get delivery. But you still get to have that moment together. it doesn't matter who's cooked it kind of thing yeah absolutely does she work at the moment or is she more focused with the kids what's going on because that's hard if she's got to get up and work the next day and she's waiting for you it's a nightmare it's this hard balance so she works with me so what we've done is so i'm on screen talent for different shows and obviously the podcast but then we built a business behind it right okay and she's working on that that business right she's on the go i'm on the go but at the same time you know it's a blessing to be in a creative space because you do have a little bit of control over the schedule.

34:05You know, you may work on a Saturday and Sunday, but maybe off then on a Tuesday. You know, for example, when I leave with you all, I'm taking my youngest to the Tate to hang out with him for a little bit and then we're going to all have dinner together. So it's one of those where we try to just build it in so that every day there's time that we're spending together. And how with your kids It's approaching teenage age. Are they A, kicking against that yet? Or B, what are you going to do when they're 16, 17, 18 and they don't want to do that anymore? Oh, man, I'm so scared of that. Which is down the park in South London at 10 and you're going, when are you coming back to?

34:42He's like, it's not happening. I'm trying to get a ninth number. It's so wild because my, so at 14, my oldest will still on occasion hold my hand, right? which I think is the sweetest thing in the world. So I typically walk them to their bus in the morning. So he used to always hold my hand. He was the one that would always hold my hand. And then the last year, he'll drop my hand when his friends are around. But he's still holding on to it. So I feel him slipping, and that is killing me. That is killing me. And I think what it's made me do is it's made me hover on my youngest even more. Yeah, so he's getting the brunt of it.

35:23Oh my gosh. So I'm constantly hugging and kissing my youngest and he doesn't, and he's the one who doesn't want to be hugged and kissed. He's never held my hand in his life. So I don't know what's going to happen, but I feel it is coming. I saw someone talking about parenting. It's like your job as a parent to give your kids roots so they know where they're from and they feel secure. But then you've so got to get to the age where you've got to give them wings from until then go. And that's the stage right now where 14, 15, 16, he's starting to, you know, do stuff that impacts his life going forward of like exams or picking subjects, going to uni or not or working.

35:55It's all those things that, you know, you want to give them advice and help them with, but really they've got to make their own mistakes and crack on with it. But as their dad, you want to be there holding their hand. That's a great analogy. You know, the wings that that's I see that, you know, and that'll stay with me. I appreciate that. I've nicked it off someone else. So don't forget me.

36:17And so do you feel like it's interesting you say that that's a great analogy to Robin stuff? Because obviously that is kind of your world. And that's kind of ways you think you're trying to pass on knowledge and how much you trying to pass on to your kids. or are you worried that you're kind of more reactive to what they need or are you going towards them with stuff? You've got to try and slip it in subconsciously, I imagine, because no one wants to hear stuff from their parents, even if they know it's the right stuff. They just think, oh, shut up, Dad. But you are an expert in this kind of stuff and life.

36:47They'll joke me on that. They'll say, oh, it's the love doctor talking to me again. You know? They will always. But the way that I look at it is, yes, I'm training them. I'm trying to arm them. I'm trying to teach them, you know, I'm trying to provide that safe, you know, foundation, that safe space. And I think part of what's allowed us to be, I feel like we've been effective so far, is that my wife and I are on the same page with this. And also because we had our children a little bit later, I think on average, and we had to struggle to have our kids because we went through eight years of trying to have children.

37:29Oh, blimey. No wonder you know what a vulva is. Oh, yeah. Sorry. I know with precision. With precision. It was eight years. And then we had to eventually go to IVF. Then we went through multiple cycles of IVF. We had one that was successful. Then we had a miscarriage. So it was one of those where we had not just the amount of time and energy and emotion that was tied to it, But even if you just think about the cost of going through all those, it's one of those where there was so much that we had to give up in order to have our children. During that entire time, we were constantly talking about, well, what type of parent do you think that will be?

38:13And how do we do this? And how do we do that? So there was a lot of like pre-discussion, pre - Yeah, of course. It was eight years of looking towards it and working towards it. So you had a lot of time to sort of almost get a battle plan together. And was that in America? Because in the UK, you get IVF on NHS after a certain time, I think. But in America, is it all sort of self-funded? It's self-funded. You know what's so wild about that is I've run into one, two, three, four people in the UK that went through IVF at the same clinic that we went to in the States. There are a lot of Brits that go to the United States for their IVF treatment.

38:51Oh, really? Yes. It's like any kind of purchase in a weird way in that you're shopping around clinics, reading about it online, comparing reviews, all that kind of stuff. It is. And today, I mean, that was 14, 15 years ago when we did it. Or actually 15 when we were successful, but going back over 20 years when we started. How old are you, Paul? Do you want me to ask? You know, everyone is like, how old are you? I'm 50. Fuck hell. Bloody hell, you look great. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Forget how old is our age, Josh. It's okay. it's okay really ruined my day that's put a fucking stake through my day now and now i've got to look at you and do voiceover and he's fucking 50 and i'm sat in this little booth looking worse than him don't do it don't say it don't say it don't say it sorry and now now oh my god what you could do now like literally the technology so much more advanced now you could pick gender eye color IQ That's bad It is scary It is super scary What you could do So are both your kids IVF then?

39:54Yes And what's wild about that Is the youngest Who acts like the oldest Could be the oldest Oh wow Of course Yeah Yeah the way that it works Yeah because you have Just freeze the eggs Yeah That's amazing Yeah And so why were the Brits Going to America to do it? Had they used their So any NHS stuff And then they were Self-funding But it was better to do it In America than the UK Basically From what they've told me Is that it was just more effective. There was a higher like take rate at this particular clinic. So we ended up choosing a very, very good clinic. In essence, what ends up happening is that many people are not successful in getting pregnant, but then also for that child to be able to go through birth.

40:36So oftentimes what happens with IVF is that the child will be lost in the miscarriage as happened to us once. so this particular clinic is just known for you know high tick rates high pregnancies high births so i think that's one of the reasons why and how do you keep your head or how do you mentally deal with that journey not knowing that it will even have the destination you want if you know what i mean like was there part of you that was like i don't know if i can deal with even setting out on this journey because it's going to be too intense and too difficult and might not no guarantees is it yeah no guarantees the first cycle we were blind to it all you know so it was just like oh let's do it i'm sure it'll work but by the time you get into your fourth or fifth cycle it becomes not only emotionally but physically draining you know especially on the woman i had to give my wife three shots every day so i'm literally you know needle giving her a shot three different shots every single day for weeks and weeks on on end and it's one of those where so you have the physical pain she's bruising etc yeah you have the emotional unfortunately society still puts a lot of shame on couples who have not yet had a child and they yeah questions all the time when are you two when are you and even if you could have been trying quietly for years wrong that was the worst to have your grandmother basically say like when are you gonna do it what are you doing what are you doing what are you doing like grandma we're actually we've been trying like yeah you can't say that because then you're the one who then makes the mood change and you're feeling well hang on i've done nothing apart from tell her to shut out but and then everyone starts feeling sorry for you and then that's awkward because you're getting that oh you know the same conversation the whole time it's such a minefield isn't it so basically the answer is if there is a young couple that haven't had kids yet just shut the fuck up until they mention anything exactly that's the advice is that what you say that's good advice that is great advice It doesn't matter what it is.

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43:16And so when you did it, are there other people that have been through IVF and stuff? Like, did you talk to people who'd already been through it, or did you just kind of go in, not blindly, but kind of? We did. We had no, like, IVF mentors. and we didn't know other than our doctor so that also made it scary and then also i mean it was during that time we were dealing with lots of stresses at work which now we realize played a role in our inability to have a child naturally absolutely well that's one of the things with ivf is like don't put yourself under unnecessary stress you're like short of like dealing with a relative who's got like a is ill this is one of the most stressful things you can put yourself under so it's very difficult to go and also don't get stressed and also you've got to go to work to pay for it no one's got a massive amount of money to go right well we're not going to be stressed now so let's pay thousands of pounds for rvf and then also take a career break yeah you know you need the money coming in you have to stay on that kind of that what is it rat race like in the cycle treadmill in the treadmill and you can't get off of it and then you know once you're three four cycles in you think to yourself is that just sunk cost or do we continue going well it's yeah when you walk away from the poker table isn't it it's all it must be a really really tough process to go through it's tough it's tough did you almost walk away at any point or did you know that we were committed to just continually try i think once uh i'm not sure what cycle it was it could be like a three or four cycle where we got pregnant the first time and lost the child and it was one of those where it gave us a little bit of hope that it could happen amazing you managed to have two children after all that time and you know the miscarriage to have two boys close in age is incredible really it was a miracle i feel like it was a miracle and it's a huge blessing and i think that also stays with me that wasn't that long ago i could still remember injecting my wife and her crying and me thinking i don't want to do this and i think you know that in essence is gratitude you know i think gratitude is you could just simply remind yourself of why it is that you love this thing or this entity or this person whatever it is so much and i think that's where a lot of that gratitude comes from and then he throws your hand away as he approaches the bus stop and you're like what the hell did i do i literally told him i said i could have had a ferrari i said i could have had a ferrari yeah you know and quite honestly this is terrible but my kids found out they were IVF with me blabbing my mouth on television oh really yeah so I was they do watch they do watch it was it was it could have been like this morning or Lorraine I was talking about the IVF journey and they were at home yeah that particular day watching should I mention that at a dinner table even before I left set my wife said um your boys need some answers and we had to go through this this this long explanation around why and etc and it ended up being very helpful for them but what i realized is that for a lot of people they feel it's shameful to have gone through the ivf process especially men feel like it's shameful that they've had to go through this process and they're not man enough to have a child naturally and so they choose to not say anything about it right yeah that's fascinating isn't it and what about your kids like now would they in a way it must just make you feel even more wanted than you do you know what i mean it's in a strange way it shouldn't be shameful it should be this huge badge of honor that you've done this your parents were so committed to being parents yeah they went through that because it's such a hard process yeah i mean well my kids have gone there they have an inflated ego because they're like, we were put together.

46:59We're perfect. Because literally when you do it, this is how it was wild, but you have different grade of eggs. They even grade semen. What they're trying to do is they're trying to take the healthiest, best, strongest semen and match it with the healthiest, strongest, best egg. And they do that little petri dish so you know my boys were like well what well how healthy were we and i was like well you were considered grade a they were like that's the reason why we're so smart today so they've taken it they've gone a whole other direction with it it's not good how many cycles did you go through after the first one to get the second it was right away see and then that the stress thing that sort of implies that like you know the pressure off the shoulders you'd had a healthy child then everyone's relaxing in the groove and then it went straight off i do think stress and overworking is such so problematic you know people go it's because of my you know it may be sort of arthritis or this or that but it all stems originally i think a lot of it this is obviously very ill-informed this is just how i feel about life i'm not taking any sort of medical research into this but i do feel like that is such a catalyst for all these other problems is the amount of stress people are living and working under i mean the science supports what you're saying rob the stress that is a sentence that's never been said on this podcast in five years finally the science has gone my life the science supports you rob but what the stress does in essence is it destroys and tears away at your immune system right and your immune system is what's trying to fight everything off yeah and so with your immune system being lowered you're susceptible to everything you know it's interesting i had uh on my podcast i had gabor mate on and he gave this one stat that has stayed with me.

48:45And that is, is that women, the studies is that there's a group of women who don't talk about the problems that they have in their relationship with anyone. And then there's the other half, they do talk about their problems openly, right? So one is suppressing, one is not. The group that's suppressing is four times more likely to die as a result of the stress that then damages their immune system. And that is exactly, you know what you're saying rob is that the stress is just like it is literally a killer so in a way your dinners with your kids like being open that's good for your health even though it's delivery so it's not ideal for your health it's kind of good for your health you get salads on delivery yeah you can get salads but like opening up and being honest and not keeping stuff in is good for your health it is one of the best things that we can do yeah is to open up and whatever is on your heart you think about you know so many people have uh that sunday night anxiety where they're thinking about all the things at work but in particular they're thinking about the relationships the relationships with their boss relationships with their co-workers and the things they would like to be able to say or that they want to be heard yeah right and so that's the reason why these conversations and communication truly it's everything it's everything do you find sometimes paul because obviously your job is this sort of relationship and life sort of guide and expert on these shows.

50:10And that's what you did before you was on the TV. Do you find that? I think it's called like moral licensing. We're like, but at home, because you do sometimes drop the ball because you do all that work. You want to get back and relax. Do you feel like sometimes because you're known for doing that, you sort of automatically assume you'll be doing it. Do you find sometimes you get home and you're like, well, actually, I'm not practicing what I preach here because I'm off duty, as it were. Do you catch yourself out sometimes? All the time, all the time. And I'm constantly, I have this almost script in my mind where I'm evaluating, was that theoretically the best thing to do?

50:41But then I end up, I think it's helpful. It ends up changing my behavior. But then also, and I say this with no exaggeration, my wife is 10 times smarter than me and more knowledgeable than me in these areas, especially around psychology. It's funny. The other day I did something, I messed up. And I told her, I was like, Jill, I'm sorry. And she looks at me and she says, now you teach people how to apologize all day every day and you know that apology sucked like give me a real apology and so i will then catch myself and say okay and then i'll go into what an actual apology is right but i'm constantly running that script in my mind and evaluating myself against it so obviously a lot of the listeners here are parents and most they are single parents and obviously but as you're in a partnership with mom and dad with the kids kind of thing is there any advice you'd give for people the way to you know share the duty or talk to each other or deal with each other when there's that pressure of the kids especially when they're young and a lot of the argument over is like who's the default parent who's doing the most work the mental load and all that those classic arguments is there any advice you'd give for those couples at that stage yes and this goes against one of the biggest myths i think when it comes to parenting and i say argue in front of your kids okay i am fucking nailing this

52:06that is the right move right there that is it that is it and here's the reason why is because you want to teach your kids how to manage arguments and that it is okay for you to disagree with someone that you love and that you can still be in disagreement and still love them you can carry multiple emotions at the same time that's the beauty of being a human being Now, what ends up happening most of the time is that parents will step away into another room. But one of the reasons why they step away into another room is because their arguing is disrespectful to each other. It's actually not effective.

52:44And so if you think that you have to walk away because what you have to say is too crass to say in front of your child, then maybe you need to reevaluate how you disagree with your partner. So I think it's a great litmus test. So I say argue in front of your child. You don't have to come to a resolution. Matter of fact, 69 % of challenges that we have in our relationships, we won't resolve. So the question is, is how do you manage it? And it teaches your kids so much about conflict resolution, emotions, about how their parents are human beings. So argue in front of your children. Yeah, because if you can't argue in front of them, the way you're arguing is not the right way.

53:26Exactly. So don't just call them a fucking wanker in front of you. Try and find a way to verbalise that in a constructive... I'm doing this for you, kids. I'm doing this for you. Why won't you shut those fucking cupboards, Rob? I don't know, Luke. I was thinking, you're just going to give on a carte blanche and just say whatever they want. But no, the actual moral of that is arguing the right way. Yes. We should set an example for conflict resolution. Yes. Paul C. Brunson strikes again. That's PG. Before you go, Paul, so Married at First Sight is out in September. How many series is that now? Seven, maybe six, seven, I think.

53:59Maths UK is streaming on Channel 4 now, Paul. Yeah, so you can watch all the first six series now. It feels like it's still just peaking. It goes from strength to strength to strength. It's one of those where the audience grows, younger people are watching, older folks are watching. And I think the reason why is because we do a great job in casting people who are a great cross-section of the UK. So in particular on this series, you will see your neighbor, You'll see your brother. You might just see yourself, you know, on the show. And I think that's the beauty of it. I'd say it's almost now, it's the Premier, like the Champions League.

54:36It's a reality show, really. I think it's surpassed Love Island in terms of like the nation's dialogue. That's had its day. Yeah. I'd say it goes, married at first sight, joint top, the celebs go dating. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. No, but that's a given as the joint top. You don't have to mention Roger Federer when you're talking about tennis. It's implicit. The goat to the goat. It's job size. Exactly, exactly. I just want to also say your podcast, do you want to plug your podcast, Paul? That's slightly below us in the charts. It's still very high. Still very high. It's still very high. It is called We Need to Talk, and it is one of the fastest growing podcasts in the UK, and it's a place to have tough conversations.

55:17The good news for you is we've plateaued, Paul, so you're going to go straight past that. Joe, you're really good at, Paul, and I think it's really important. You are very good with sort of mega named reality stars that sometimes certain parts of the society look down their noses on. Like, you know, people from like Geordie Shore and stuff. There's a little bit of a sort of a crass sort of, oh, not them and stuff. Well, actually, they're, you know, very talented human beings that sometimes got gobbled up by an industry and chucked out into tabloids on Instagram. And they've all got a very human story that people can associate with.

55:47And I think you give them a platform for them to discuss that without them playing up to their performance roles of that kind of person from a reality show. And I think it's really interesting rather than just getting them on to churn out the old sort of patter that they do and you actually find out about them and things like that. So the podcast is great. And there's always a good moment when they're really crying and then they go, what the fuck is that smell? And then you start laughing. He's part-bombed them. He's part-bombed them for a fun now. well i tell you what if you get a package from me i'm not opening it

56:22i'm opening anything near you again paul no i'm noting nothing with a south london postmark we always end with the same question paul which is an interesting one for you what one thing about your partner your wife as a parent you go that is just incredible i couldn't do that that is you know why i'm with you that's very amazing what one thing even though you're you're very big on dialogue annoys you about their parenting that you've never brought up that maybe if she was listening now she'd go yeah you've got a point there so this is where we have the most conflict i lean into they are my best friends yeah she leans into no i'm the parent right yeah so i think we need to meet each other halfway on that yeah i need to be more of a parent oh and i want her to be more of the besties with right in a way you might balance each other out hopefully yeah and i think that's that's what we do do you feel any genuine questions you feel any guilt that you have maybe got the more fun role out of the two of those i do and i think oftentimes the dads do you know and i think it's because we don't have as much time on average with the children so when we do show up it's all fun yeah right because it's limited time and it is it's absolutely unfair it is absolutely unfair yeah but i think that's how i i landed in that role and what would you say is the one thing she does it's amazing that you're in awe of as a parent Oh my God.

57:55She is the most incredible teacher of them. What we're doing is we're shaping little people who are going to become big people and make big decisions and have incredibly challenging decisions that they have to make. And she is exceptional at the shaping of their mind. I almost wish that I can go back and have her to parent me. You know what I mean? she's exceptional at that like top one percent in the world you know at that for sure and how she's so good at that would you say was that just a natural or she's done a lot of research into it and stuff like that or is it just gut i think it was all of the above so uh in terms of attachment style she had a secure attachment from her parents which has helped she also she studied psychology she's genuinely a a nurturer slash like teacher all of those elements i think just add up to you know the fight that she had physically the fight that she had also when we had our second she was in the emergency room you know she could have passed away on that so i think all of these pieces just add up to her saying my focus in life are these boys like that is priority for her yeah see and i'm just getting buzzwords like roots and wings off tiktok and i I need to do a bit of that it's alright we've got away with it so far the science supports me so I'll take that Paul it's been brilliant good luck with the Rufink the podcast maths celebs the lot it's been an honour thank you both truly appreciate it cheers mate cheers Paul thank you Paul C Bronson what a great guy loved him 50 that killed me that he's 50 he looks great so great and he sounds great he's got I'm going to say it He had the best voice on show there of the three of them.

59:42Oh, God, yeah, he had a great voice, didn't he? Great face, great body. That was pure what we're looking for in an interviewee. Funny, not what you're expecting. Yeah. Then some great advice. Some deep stuff. Deep stuff. Then some real nice stuff, and then I snuck in a little punchline at the end about the TikToks. I'm like, Joe, what? That was fucking, no wonder we're so bloody out. Yeah, no wonder we're either than that prick in the chart. No one listens to this bit. Let's blow some smoke up our arses. We're fucking good. we're good at this shit yeah we invented this shit and we're fucking dominating this shit we'll be back to blow your minds again on Tuesday see you then yeah exactly or bore you about sort of school pick up but either way we'll be back edited so it sounds fine yeah