Jeremy Kauffman

28:27And and I think that a huge amount of politics is downstream of culture and demographics. And so having a leader who is good on those issues like Trump has, you know, Trump has reduced, I believe, we're like negative migration. People who ought to be leaving America are leaving. We're bringing in people from, you know, South Africa who are way more likely to be compatible American on average than the types of people who are bringing in before. And I think this is all very, very positive stuff. I'm very pro-New Hampshire. I think not entirely the reason New Hampshire works. We are different from Vermont.

29:05But part of why New Hampshire works is the demographics and these issues matter. It's not random. Political beliefs are not random. And so to be ignoring this, I think, is foolish. well certainly i think no one could even argue that in a democratic system the democratic the democ the beliefs of the demographics in your geopolitical in your geographical area are the whole thing i mean that's and what ends up you know making the difference i would so okay so here's where i would kind of agree with you i think that um uh i think there is something to guys like Massey and Paul, they're almost a little bit limited in their own vocabulary about how exactly to talk about what we're really dealing with here.

30:02You know, there was an old tweet of mine that it's like taken out of context and going viral now by people who don't like me, but where I said something like, I'm not for closed borders. but what I was actually doing was arguing back with another libertarian who was like, well, you're for closed borders. And I was like, well, no, I'm not for open borders, but I'm not for. And essentially what I meant by that is like, I'm not saying there should be no immigrants ever coming in. I'm saying having a system where millions of people from third world countries pour in in an unaccountable manner against the wishes of the domestic population is suicide and is insane.

30:38And what people are, it's like the conversation isn't even really about immigration here. We're talking about mass migration. We're talking about what I know it's become the dirty word, but replacement levels of immigration where you're sending in like over a few short decades, tens of millions. And then over a few short years, another 10 million or something like this. And there is something about like the to capture like that is such a profound crime. You could argue it's the most profound crime that a government could commit against their citizenry is to actually replace the culture and the people against their will.

31:19And so it's important to have language to really oppose that. OK, but like so like there is some truth to that. but also essentially what Donald Trump's done a good job on is securing the border. He hasn't really been getting the people to leave who haven't deportations really aren't the strong suit of this administration, but he did secure the border. And that is true. But then there's also a lot of other really important things. And so to me, you got like, even in look, I'm not in the, in the context of this show, I'm not a political actor. I'm not like thinking about like what, you know, sometimes I try to be one, but I really just talk about how I feel about all these things.

32:02But even if I was being a political actor, I would say that Donald Trump, you know, by launching this, you know, disastrous war, by going in the direction that he's moved here, he's ended up blowing the whole coalition that's surrounding, you know, people like that. And for libertarians, if we were going to play a role of saying like, hey, we will support you if you give us some promises. It makes sense just as a political action that it would be we also then oppose you if you break a bunch of those promises. All right, guys, let's take a moment and thank our sponsor for today's show, which is Body Brain Coffee.

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33:14He created this product. It's genuinely really great. And he's the guy who convinced me to start podcasting. So if you love this podcast, you do in a way owe a little bit of a debt toward Lewis. And here's a great way to pay it. We blow this coffee brand up and you get yourself a delicious cup of coffee that naturally boosts testosterone. So go to bodybraincoffee.com. Use the promo code Dave20. That will get you 20 % off your order. Once again, that's bodybraincoffee.com. Promo code Dave20 for 20 % off. All right, let's get back into the show. Sure, and I don't know. I'm not here to be on the show.

33:50And try to argue your audience should be, again, supporting everything that Trump does. You know, I'm still very anti-interventionist. Some of this stuff, you know, really does seem unnecessary, you know, to me. I also will say, you know, my foreign policy chops, you know, almost certainly aren't as good as yours. So, you know, when we get into the play-by-play of everything happening, I'm not going to know as much as you do. But my inclination is that, yeah, some of this stuff was unnecessary. you know at the same time it's like look i just don't know another i just don't see a better strategy you know libertarians are in my opinion um you know well nine out of ten libertarians are on the right by the data that i can find and then on inside of the right libertarians are maybe 10 of the right 20 of the right at the upper side and so it's like well how you know how are we getting what we want?

34:43How are we negotiating? And what would be nice is if we had libertarian leaders, whether that's Massey or Paul, who were centering around them, or even, you know, at least Angela McArdle was trying to do this. I don't know if it all worked out great, but she was, I think, directionally trying to do the right thing of, okay, become a coalition, let's horse trade. Look, I'll tell you, we have a Rothbardian, ANCAP, Mises-educated guy. His name is Jason Osborne. He's the House Majority Leader in New Hampshire. And he is constantly getting our telling our guys whipping our guys is like, Look, we've just got to vote Republican up and down the board.

35:22This is how we get what we want. The more that we show that we play ball, the more that I can negotiate on the and it's not of course, we have, you know, almost 100 libertarians elected here. But he's the guy we coordinate around. And he's the guy who and the more that we show that, hey, we're playing ball with the team, the more that he's able to get our priorities passed. And it doesn't mean that we get what we want 100 % of the time. Sometimes our Republican, you know, we were very close to getting campus carry passed this year, and it was other Republicans who shot it down. We were very close to getting this other, like, school, it's not even school choice, we already have a grade school choice, but this, like, school swap program.

35:57And it was Republicans who shot it down. And so, you know, and this is disappointing that our priorities are not happening, not even because of the Democrats, but because of other Republicans at times. But, you know, what Jason would say, and I'm going to do a video with him in a couple of weeks on the Free State Party channel, which I would encourage your audience to check out, is explaining some of this stuff. And it's like, it's hard. Libertarians are disagreeable. We're independent minded. We like to speak our truths and say where we're at. But I just don't see a better strategy. And this is like, you know, I don't like it.

36:33But, like, what am I supposed to do other than hold my nose a little bit? Because I just don't see a better way. I just don't see a better strategy. Like if I start being like, you know, Trump sucked, like it's not like it would things would be better if Kamala was president, even though there's stuff I don't like with Trump. It's not like that would be better, you know. Well, I guess. OK, well, let me let me say it like this. So because I listened to your I just earlier today, listen to your interview on our good mutual friend Tom Woods show over there. And you were kind of talking about how like, you know, like at the startup phase, you want like more radicals.

37:06And then as you're getting bigger and bigger would be the time to moderate the message kind of and things like that. So I think that it's quite, it might be quite reasonable in the state legislator in New Hampshire, where you have a real presence and you really have been building momentum to be like, listen, guys, this is the time where we're going to have to moderate. In fact, I think I remember talking with you years ago about how I almost go that like like more of the like Nick Sarwak types in the Libertarian Party. I go they kind of would have a point if Gary Johnson had gotten 32 percent of the vote.

37:42And you were like, guys, we just need to like get a few more points here. But when your big win is that you got five percent, it's like, no, dude, this is the time to be more radical because you kind of have to go for it. So I do think there's just like that might really make sense within New Hampshire state politics. But on the federal level, and especially when you get when again, this is all a balancing act, right? Like if it felt like in in almost all ways, Donald Trump was a huge improvement over the Democrats. But there were a few issues on the margins that weren't very good. I would agree with like I'm saying it's not I would agree with the principle like, yeah, come on, dude.

38:21we're getting some huge wins here. We got to stick by it. Let's stay in the coalition. When you're spending more money, he's probably spending double what Obama was spending when he was in. He's spending more money than Joe Biden did in the wake of COVID. And you're launching wars of aggression. And again, fair enough that I focus on the foreign policy more than other stuff. But like, I mean, dude, like the amount of devastation that this thing has already caused. It's not just like there's a few cents up at the pump. It's like the global economy has been starved of energy for two months now. This is going to cause major pumps.

38:56Anyway, I just go at a certain point. I don't think this is the correct strategy. I think essentially what ends up happening is that libertarians lose. Essentially, we lose our reputations. We lose any of our standing as truth tellers, which then undercuts our ability to have political options going forward. But I would say, isn't it the case then, like for someone from your perspective, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but you really think the free state project is the best thing, is the best libertarian strategy, right? I mean, that's the most important thing to you is kind of like the health of that project.

39:34Yeah, for sure. So, I mean, well, I just think I see libertarians as, and I'll use some leftist language here, but they're like they're a dominated minority. You know, they are preferences. Marginalized. Yeah. If you're a right-wing libertarian, you're 5 % of the population in America. And so 5 % of the population never gets what they want. But when 5 % of the population concentrates in one place, the most successful anarchists in America are the Amish. The Amish don't have to pay Social Security. They don't have to register for the draft. They did this by being a physically concentrated population who was willing to stand up.

40:11You can look at what the Mormons have been able to achieve in Utah. You can look at I wouldn't always endorse everything they do. You can look at what the Hasidic Jews have done in New Jersey and New York where they've sort of taken over these local town. And this is a real strategy that works. It does work here in New Hampshire, where, you know, again, if something happens, I have a whole team of people behind me, not just people. I have people in positions of power. We have influence and control over various institutions. You know, we're doing our own sort of march to the institutions here. To me, this is a real strategy.

40:46A democracy in general, whether it's the free state movement or something else, by the way, it might be something else, but a democracy has never voted itself out of socialism. We haven't seen, you know, we basically continue to expand the franchise. What I call the scariest graph in the world is to look at the percentage of GDP that is controlled by governments, not just in America, but across Europe. And it's a line that just goes nothing but up for 120 straight years. And so how do we get out of this? We managed to stay afloat, quite frankly, thankfully, to entrepreneurs and innovative people that continue to make us more productive.

41:23And so I will say, yeah, my life is nonetheless better. Despite this increasing parasite load of my government. My life is better than it was in the past. So I'm not here, you know, doing about it. But this this doesn't seem sustainable over time, you know, unless we're expecting just infinite productivity gains to always save us. And so something new has to come about. It's inevitable. The pressure and the incentive to create something new is higher than it ever is before. This is also what I'm working on. I don't know how much you want to get into on the show, but it's actually a big part of what I'm working on with with the Free State Party, which is my new which has been my new venture.

42:00And if we're talking about saving America, you know, it's got to be centering around someone who can actually solve these problems, which as much as I would like to happen in this purely voluntary way, I think if you're talking about saving America, you need someone with like a little bit more of like an energy like a Malay or even a Bukali, who I want to be very clear is not a libertarian in many ways. But there has to be someone who's willing to, you know, look, Trump disappoints me in this area. I wish he was stronger. He doesn't do enough. You know, but we are in a system that is so against us, that is so weighted against us, where it's not just the government, but it's like, it's all of the bureaucracies.

42:43It's all of the universities. It's all of these institutions. And this is, again, also why, despite not liking a lot of what Trump does, I'm not eager to condemn this because he's like the first thing I've seen in my life. And I didn't even get this at first. I wasn't like a huge Trump fan in 2016. I was by 2020, but I was not a huge fan of Trump in 2016. It took me a while to get this to understand that he's the first thing that is disruptive to the system, that threatens the system like even a little bit. And so I'm just not eager to jump away from that until I see my ability to jump to something better.

43:20And someone like Massey, again, who I love, like his popularity, I'm glad he's getting more popular. I would love that if he could become president, but he's not getting popular by talking about cutting spending, right? He's gotten popular by talking about Epstein stuff and the war in Iran. And I think a lot of this popularity is coming from people who are happy to support him because they see him as oppositional to Trump. But if it ever came to Massey enacting a right wing libertarian agenda would turn on them in a second because they don't they don't want to cut food stamps or spending or shrink the regulatory state.

43:58They just like that he's sticking his thumb in the eye of Trump, which I'm not saying Trump is entirely undeserving of. So I'm not here to like condemn Massey and say he's Donald Trump. Trump but Donald Trump is the guy like when Thomas Massey did vote against the giant spending bill in COVID that caused so much of the inflation. Trump's the guy who's going to demonize him and send all of his people to attack him. So, yes, it might be the case that Thomas Massey appeals to a lot of people. But then when it gets down to the business of cutting food stamps, they're going to have a problem. Donald Trump's there's no illusion that he's ever even going to get down to the business of cutting food stamps or anything.

44:32I will say my understanding is that Trump wanted more cuts than Congress was willing to deliver for him. That this was not that I'm not trying to portray Trump as a Massey like figure in terms of in terms of the budget. But but I've seen I'm trying to remember the top of my head. I've seen some solid evidence that like what Trump wanted more cuts than Congress was willing to deliver. And so it was actually Congress that has been inhibiting the ability to do more of that. the first spending bill that trump signed into law in 2017 was the highest spending bill in the history of the country at the time and he promised that that was the last one he would sign this one but he would never sign another bill that blew up the the budget and then he's signed like five more since then so anyway but regardless of that i think there's okay i think that well let me say it like this because i listen i endorse the free state project i've always thought it's a great idea.

45:29And in fact, if you're a listener of the show, or if you really believe in libertarianism, I think it's a great thing to consider. If you've got a family, you've got the means, and you can do it. Or if you, for whatever reason, can. If you're a young single guy, and you can do, I think it would be a great thing to do. You're kind of a built-in community. And I think you guys have made some real tangible wins for liberty, and it's great. I would also wonder, and honestly, this is a question I don't really know the answer to. But like, how much do you think Ron Paul running for president helped the Free State Project?

46:01Like how many people in New Hampshire who are there because were introduced to these ideas or convinced of the ideas by Ron Paul and then found out about the Free State Project? I'm not saying it's like the whole thing or anything like that, but my guess would be like that was a substantial help. no yeah for sure and i think and and my attitude towards massey would be look if ron paul similar to if ron paul was running again and be like well like look yeah this this probably isn't going to work but i hope uh that you know you try your best and if in a couple of years it didn't work consider this other solution that might work well right and hopefully there's but i'm just saying like i would even argue just on from your perspective for just like caring about the free state project.

46:47Dude, I mean, the thing that Thomas Massey, what the thing about it is this, right? It's like you could, when Ron Paul was first running for president, you could have said, yeah, dude, he's talking about all this anti-war stuff. And that's gonna, that's gonna mean that people like me, like a young leftist. Yeah. I like him for that, but I'm not going to like him for his economic stuff. But the truth is that I liked him so much for that, that I went, let me read a couple of these books he's recommending about this economic stuff. Now, again, I'm not saying we're going to get 51 percent of the population, but you have it set up right now where, look, the entire country and in small part, the libertarians played a role in this.

47:25The entire country recognizes the global war on terrorism as an absolute catastrophe, just a disastrous failure of the 21st century that that did so much damage to this country. It was damn near unanimous outside of the Israel lobby that the last thing we want is another war of choice. The young people now hate Donald Trump's guts. Thomas Massey is maybe the most popular political figure amongst young people in the country. And if he runs for president right now, just because of the way things are set up, he's going to have a huge run. I'm not saying like we don't know what would happen. It will be a big run with major bigger than corporate media covering it.

48:05You're going to see an army of young people get interested in these ideas again. It's the best recruitment tool for the free state project imaginable. I'm not here to say Massey shouldn't run. I effectively think that Massey running would be beneficial for the reasons that you say. I would hope that he incorporates, at least as part of his messaging, some of the stuff that he's gotten away from, I think, in the last year or two. Not because I think he doesn't believe it. Look, I think Massey's a very savvy political actor who's playing a game. I don't think he wanted to lose his primary, but he was trying to set himself up as someone who could stand up to Donald Trump, who wasn't under Donald Trump's thumb, who had enough of an audience and enough of the following that he was an independent man.

48:51And that would have put him in a very powerful position, you know, going into a primary two years from now. I think he maybe still can do well in that primary. I think I, you know, I would I would say I support him running for much of the reasons that you say. say. I would hope that he talks more about some of the stuff he's gotten away from about, you know, to the degree to which the regulatory state is inhibiting things, the degree to which we need, you know, free markets to bring down prices, that, you know, that it's social spending. Like, this is something that it's like, you know, 80, it's something like 80 to 85 percent of federal government spending is social welfare, you know.

49:28And so the war is, again, clearly very bad, And it can be difficult to tabulate all the costs because I think there are costs beyond the exact sticker prices. But it's it's it's social welfare. I mean, this alliance between the people receiving social welfare, the politicians who give it to them and this massive class of of either bureaucrats or sort of pseudo government workers because they're in the health care industry or all this stuff. I mean, you know, this is what we're up against. I mean, it's in the school districts. You have these massive, all these bureaucrats, all of these teachers, the unions, they're all whipping their votes.

50:05They get more money for themselves, extracting more money from the pot. This rot that exists in America. This is definitely, at least for me personally, the more animating issue. And I want to see politicians talking about this and bringing attention to this, because I think if we don't get through this problem, you know, we're not you know, we're not going to sort of strike the root, you know, as it were. All right, guys, let's take a moment and thank our sponsor for today's show, which is Sheath Underwear, the underwear of legends. I have been telling you guys about Sheath Underwear for, I think, four years now.

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51:12All right. Let's get back into the show. I completely agree with that. I completely agree with you on that. And I also think there's just such a golden opportunity for, say, a Thomas Massey to talk about this stuff, because, you know, even like the kind of unaffordability thing that is in the popular lexicon now, he's just got such a great explanation for, you know, just look at monetary policy and regulatory policy and look how much our own policies make things so much more expensive. So I completely agree. I hope he would talk a lot about that stuff. But I also think he's the only one who maybe even would.

51:45And he is good on that stuff. Whereas without him, that'll just never even become an issue that anyone talks about. It'll kind of be as if it doesn't, you know, as if it doesn't exist. um there's were there other things like because okay so fair enough then we don't really have that much areas of of disagreement i guess on that as well if you're also rooting for massey to run you did say is one of the topics that you like israel would be something to talk about because again i don't know exactly where you stand on this but it does seem like there's there's a gap between me and you and i think i think i've seen like you'd be kind of critical on what you might describe as uh libertarians putting too much emphasis on israel is that fair to say yeah i i mean i'm i'm probably a bit of a centrist maybe on this issue like i do uh i do see there being uh disproportionate well we it's this also the terms get very over-level so we have israel uh you know we have sort of a zionist which we might say as a person who supports uh israel politically um i i feel like zionist tends to mean supports israel politically rather than just supports the idea of a jewish state i think zionist is more used modern you know and then and then we have you know jews generally as you know as an ethnic uh uh class which in america mostly means ashkenazi jews but could could mean you know could mean other types of you know could other types of Jews.

53:12I think this is, you know, I wish the whole thing would go away. Like, to me, this is an area where, like, people kind of get brain worms on both sides. And so there's this class of people who are, who have become very anti, well, anti, more than anti-Israel. I think being against Israel, if you're just cleanly against Israel, that's an understandable position. I think some people extend it beyond that, you know, to being anti-Jewish, you know, generally, which here I think I actually would both defend and disagree with. You know, there's a stance, there's a sense in which, like I think anyone who's against all Jews, I think it's kind of crazy.

53:47Jews have contributed tremendous amounts to economy, to innovation, like the amounts of like Jews are just do seem to be remarkably able people in terms of contributions to sciences and various areas. They also are disproportionately progressive. They're disproportionately socially progressive. And so if you're a social conservative, I think it's fine to say, you know, I wouldn't want to live in an area that's too Jewish. This is something people should be allowed to say. I think Jews seem to have a disproportionate influence on politics. We could debate those reasons why, but they seem to bat above their population level.

54:22almost the opposite of Asians who like seem to bat below their, you know, their population level. And so whether this is because of cultural reasons, ethnic reasons, you know, it's unclear. I, you know, and I wish we could just kind of talk about this stuff, you know, more frankly, I think, but I, yeah, I think the people who kind of see Israel or Jews around every corner, I think these people are, are, are, are kind of crazy. I think they tend to be a little bit schizo and they're very angry and disagreeable people. And I also think this is a coalition that it's tough to get anything done with.

54:58Angry, disagreeable, schizophrenic people, they'll end up being that way towards you in the future. You can't just build... Yes, I agree. Yeah, yeah. No, I completely agree with that, yeah. I think even Nick Fuentes has seen this a little bit. Oh, yeah. Well, there was one of the real interesting dynamics of my last conversation with him is seeing that. No, listen, I mean, the people who, again, as I've said it before, you know, I think we saw this with wokeism and kind of the anti-white racialism that was very popular there. And I would argue that you see this with kind of like neoconservatism or like old like Frank Gaffney kind of like right wing radio, you know, when they'd be talking about like they're going to build a mosque where 9-11 was when actually when you look into it, it was like three blocks from 9-11.

55:44It was this tiny, you know, like there's something about racialism that becomes like low IQ catnip and like people just really get into it. It hits something in our tribe. And again, that's not to your point. That doesn't mean like you couldn't have like honest, high IQ conversations about like the differences between different racial groups or you know what I'm saying? Like there's there's but there is something where it just becomes like in the hands of the wrong people. It does become that. So I completely agree with that. I do think, though, that there's a kind of separate world that I think is more representative of my camp.

56:20And I think people who listen to this show, at least more likely, who do kind of recognize that, like, no, like it is. it is absolutely the case that this one foreign lobby has a nearly ironclad grip on American foreign policy to the point that we are involved in conflicts that we like need not be involved in at all. Like it, like conflicts, like with Iran, where there was a completely reasonable deal that was on the table and it is this lobby and this foreign government who worked so hard to break it up and draw us into this war. And this is such a big deal, not just because war is like one of, if not the worst things that governments do and that people are dying, but also it's enormously expensive.

57:05And also the entire young generation is against it. And it just seems to me that obviously libertarians should be leading the charge and opposing this stuff too, because yeah, it's everything we're against and it's kind of the issue of our time. So I, you know, like I, I get your point. I don't think I disagreed with anything you said there, but I still feel that like being against this makes all the sense in the world. Yeah, I think I think it makes sense to be against it. I think, as you basically said, like the people who are always looking for like a scapegoat or or this attitude that things are being done to them.

57:37You know, I think that's the area where I would tend to disagree because like this stuff and this isn't an endorsement. I want to be clear. This is not an endorsement of it. But if we are looking at like, well, where the you know, where's the blame actually, you know, lie? Like, look, there are a lot of evangelical Christians who are very sympathetic to the cause of, you know, to the cause of Israel. You know, and there are a number there's even this is basically increasingly a right left issue where it's basically the left tends to be more sympathetic to the Palestinians versus the Jews. The right tends to be more sympathetic to the I guess I should say the Israelis.

58:23The right tends to be more sympathetic to the Israelis than to the the the Palestinians. It used to be that both sides were sympathetic to the Israelis versus the Palestinians. And now on the left, this issue has has has kind of flipped. But generally, but you got to throw in the generational caveat there, because honestly, the young people on the right are totally against Israel, too. I mean, it really is the boomer cons versus everyone else at this point, which is why you see the overall approval is like so bad for Israel now. Yeah, well, look, this is. I never again, similar to the Trump kind of thing.

58:59I'm not going to I bet it. In fact, I know that Israel has a number of things that I would disagree with, would not like my money to be going to. Israel is also a wealthy nation. Like, you know, my view, I'm like an anarcho capitalist at heart. Like, look, let Israel buy these weapons on the free market. Like, let's stop putting our tax money to it. Let's stop supporting it. Let's stop endorsing it. You know, let let Israel take care of, you know, let's let Israel take care of itself. Israel can buy weapons from American weapons manufacturers and help boost our economy and help get people jobs.

59:35But we're not going to pay for it. You know, we're not going to subsidize it. That would certainly be my preferred answer to this kind of thing. Not an endorsement of what Israel does, nor is Israel. I would much rather live in America than Israel. I'd rather live in America than Germany. I also wouldn't have a problem saying that Germany or Israel are both nations I would prefer to live in compared to Palestine or compared to much of the Middle East. And so to me, on the continuum of Western civilization versus barbarism, Jews are closer, Israel is closer to the kind of nation that I would want to live in.

1:00:17Again, not endorsing. The whole thing just seems like a mess. It just seems like it's you have this intractable conflict that both sides continue to sort of break what I would consider to be decency or the ways that I would want, you know, ideally that both sides would be behaving. And you now have this conflict where it's very intractable. There's a lot of hatred on both sides. And, you know, I would prefer to just not be involved at all and let them sort of fight it out. I hate that this is. Agreed. Agreed. Yes. All right, listen, let's use that because it's a good transition because we're coming up against the end of time here.

1:00:52But I do want to at least talk about the LP for a couple minutes here. And you just said intractable conflict that is a waste of time. And so this does seem like a fitting transition. So you did this thing, which I'm sure a lot of the listeners had seen, where you went and you ran for chair of the Libertarian Party on the platform of abolishing the whole thing, which, of course, is a suicide mission. I mean, you're well aware that obviously you're not going to win a room full of people who are all dedicated to doing a thing that we should. I got 7%, which is pretty hilarious. It is. But you had this moment where you kind of went off and it went viral of you kind of calling out the LP membership to their face and saying that, like, look, a lot of you guys are the problem for why you.

1:01:43I mean, look, I've said, I said when I was on Liam McCollum's show the other day, where I was just making the point that like, like, for example, it's not like I, like, let's say I am like a more right leaning libertarian or you're a more right leaning libertarian. And, you know, you, you go do podcasts and talk about this stuff, or I go do podcasts and talk about this stuff. And then Chase Oliver is a more left leaning libertarian. But like, so if I get on Rogan and Tucker and talk, he gets on, you know, you know, the big left wing podcasts or whatever. But it's like they don't even do that. They're not even like involved in a bigger conversation on the left the way we are on the right and or in the middle or wherever.

1:02:28and you're like it almost seems like you guys only exist to be an albatross around our necks like i don't see what else i don't see what else is accomplished by the existence of joe jorgensen and some of these people other than just when me and you will be talking to like a right winger they go oh yeah well what are you like chase oliver or something like that and then you got to go no we're a whole different thing like i don't know it just seems so it was i will admit there was something very cathartic about that moment where you told all of them that like no the problem here is you and you're embarrassing the rest of us well thank you i appreciate that i knew they were kind of coming after me and i'm not one to play defense so you know i knew that they were gonna attempt to disaffiliate new hampshire and so you know my opening offer was i'll disaffiliate you it's like i don't know i don't know how to do anything but offense um uh so like that's my opening offer i just you know look i mostly shoot from the hip and just say what i think is true and one this is an easier strategy i don't have to like plot and then yeah and then two it's mostly worked for me you know like even even all this i i you know this is uh we now will have this like big you know legal fight but it's not clear to me that i'm not getting what I want.

1:03:50Like now it's New Hampshire libertarians are set up against the rest of the LP. And, you know, when I was out there, we were talking on the plane ride out and on the trip out, like, well, you know, the free state was there's like 15 free staters who went out there and we're like, well, you know, how many people from the LP do you think you would like even want to move to New Hampshire? And we were like, well, you know, maybe like a third and, you know, and we were out there and they were like, well, maybe a 10th. Like, it's just like a lot of these people aren't the kinds of people who aren't even want to come to New Hampshire at this point.

1:04:22Similar, you said you were listening to Tom Woodcock podcast. Tom was saying these people exist in their own island that's completely severed from the rest of the libertarian movement. It's like, who are these people? And then they do exactly what you said, is they maintain the system of epistemic closure where they won't engage or talk. Chase Oliver was, of course, invited to go on the Tim Pool show with me. He's invited to go on a number of podcasts. on this show i invited him on this show he didn't do my show i mean it just dude you're running you have i don't know it seems crazy because again my mentality is the exact opposite i would i'll walk into a den of lions you know i even did i shouldn't mention them on your show but i will i did like the fakertarians podcast like three years ago and it was like it was six on one it was six of them like attacking me at the same time i'm like this is fine because i know what's true It's not going to be a problem.

1:05:16But these they they're like that something that is part of actually pushed me towards being more rightward is like the left just exists in this hive mind where there's things that like you can't even talk about. They and they maintain they have these tools and methods of like maintaining closure so that the ideas don't even enter their brains. And it's like, well, this is what I'm dealing with. Then we there's no cooperation to be, you know, had like I was always open minded about the idea of cooperating with these people. I can cooperate and find ways of working with people, you know, even if we disagree in many ways.

1:05:49And I've said this before. I'll say here, like, look, Chase Oliver would be the best Democrat in the country or like near the best Democrat in the country, you know, of course. But they're not interested in doing that. You know, they're interested in taking libertarianism and painting it as, you know, this very different thing. And it's like, well, this is what creates all the conflict. I think the whole situation is unfortunate. I think what LP National is doing is, of course, unfair to New Hampshire. They're trying to disaffiliate. We're the most successful affiliate. We have the most membership per capita.

1:06:18We have the most following on social media. We have all these elected people. Like what we're doing in New Hampshire works. You know, we generate earned media all the time. And so a lot of it is bitterness from these people seeing something that works that they can't do. And so I think the whole situation is unfortunate. But from the perspective of the free state movement, from the perspective of New Hampshire, I think the more we differentiate ourselves, you know, it's not it's not clear this is bad for what I want either. So I think, listen, I agree with you. And just to back up your point, I mean, if you remember when they're literally, what was it?

1:06:53What year was this in 2021? When they literally like tried to seize the New Hampshire party and straight up like committed actual crimes and violations of libertarian, but like principles, like the most basic libertarian principle, like stole data. And that dude, Bishop Henchman, had to like delete all of his emails and resign immediately. And there weren't calls to disaffiliate over that. Like so the idea that just like, oh, you have some opinions that National doesn't like. I mean, I don't know. This is just like it is it shows you, man. And this is again, Rothbard wrote about this in like 1987.

1:07:33But the thing is that the Libertarian Party, what ends up happening is that it's this fringe movement. It attracts some fringe people, which, hey, listen, me and you could probably fall into that category. So whatever. But like, that's OK. But it's these fringe people who are really driven by like just anti-bourgeois norms. That's really what they're driven by. And they will use libertarian philosophy in this very manipulative way. So like if I say something, if I go like, oh, there's no such thing as a trans woman, like gender is biological, you know, that you can't switch your sex. And then they'll go, it doesn't violate the non-aggression principle.

1:08:13Why do you care? And you'll go, hey, what I just said doesn't violate the non-aggression principle. Why do you care? Like, no, you're just using this in a manipulative way, really what you're against. And the thing is that guys like me and you believe in private property and voluntary interactions. We believe in peace and business and prosperity and civilization. And we have no problem with bourgeois norms. We think those are kind of great. We are dads and have expectations about how others are to behave and dads have rules on their property. And so there is this thing where it's like, hey, dude, we're using the same term, but we're not the same thing.

1:08:51And so I think your point kind of is that like at that point, and this is the conclusion that Rothbard came to, and this is when he started calling himself paleo libertarians. At that point, you're like, it probably makes more sense to accent the differences here and make it clear that like, we're not on the same thing. And I guess perhaps in that sense, I think maybe it's a good thing that New Hampshire was disaffiliated, at least just to create kind of like a separation of publicly in people's minds. Yeah. Well, the disaffiliation is not official yet. That will be an ongoing fight. We're not interested in giving up our name.

1:09:31We do feel we're the rightful affiliate. We have a website up at savelpnh.com for anyone who's interested in learning more about the case. But yeah, there's something to... We had Kevin Dolan out recently. He posts on Twitter as Extra Dead JCB, who most people know him. He is like 100 ,000 or so followers. He was talking about being sort of like you know post ideology where it's not like i i there might be one of these people who like i agree with on political philosophy you're 98 of the way but it's like well what i want you to be live next door to me like what i you know like what i trust you as my neighbor you know here's a name you you know maybe haven't heard in a while but you know reed reed coverdale uh who's uh i love very well he's married congratulations uh reed just got married yeah congratulations reed yeah and um you know he was talking about how like and by the way the libertarians in new hampshire tend to not be this type but reed was talking about how like well like you know who would i rather have as a neighbor like one of these like left libertarian people or like the conservative christian who wants to bomb iran you know and and well you know reed might theoretically agree or i might theoretically agree more with the left libertarian on policy but like i don't want this guy's a neighbor where it's like the christian conservative who wants to bomb iran is like oh no it's the overall decent person they're gonna be a good neighbor you know that's right listen there's a whole lot of fox news watching dads who are just great people you know who are just like i don't know they're getting their news from mark levin and so that's what they think the story is it's and it's an important thing it's an important thing to understand also i think that in life because look libertarians essentially believe that none of this shit should exist at all anyway right like even when me and you are talking about israel if we have slightly different opinions the thing we both agree on is like we shouldn't even be talking about any of this because none of this should be a thing at all right like like an abolitionist doesn't think we should even be having conversations about slavery ideally because it just shouldn't exist and then if all that stuff didn't exist what you're talking about would kind of be all that's left and that would be like the most important thing.

1:11:46Is this guy a good person? Do I want to live next door to him? Is he a contributor to his community? Like these things are actually in many ways, more important values. Like I would not, if there, if there was someone who was, let's just say they were a, the exact type of libertarian that I am, they agreed with me on every single issue, but that person didn't take care of their kids, cheated on their wife was, you know, was in debt to a bunch of people in the neighborhood, and then there's some socialist over here who just likes listening to like majority report and Ben Burgess podcasts, but is like a good dude.

1:12:24Yeah, that actually matters more in terms of your moral character than what you say your political view is, in my opinion. Yeah, I know you don't like the example being a leftist. No, it's good. It's good. More often than not, the example would be a right winger. You know, know, the example would be, and look, this is one of the things that like, you could say, even though on all of the areas where they disagree, I agree with Ron Paul more than Pat Buchanan. However, I'd probably rather be neighbors with the, if I just had to be like the average Pat Buchanan fan, like just throw a dart and I don't know what I'm going to hit.

1:13:01There's a lot more risk in that Ron Paul pool than there is in the Pat Buchanan one. Yeah, I think this is very true. And something I've come to realize about politics is like, Like, you know, libertarians like to pretend that their positions are like purely philosophical. I think I think this is actually true for very few of them. I think ultimately, like pretty much everyone's politics are about, well, you know, what would things look like on the other side? And so, you know, to me, I am a libertarian because I believe if there were greater competition, I don't believe even if I'm a borderline anarchist.

1:13:35But to me, anarchy means competing authorities, competing voluntary authorities, not some stateless society where there's no structure. And so I am a libertarian or a right-wing libertarian because I believe – like I want there to be more order. I believe if there were – at least in some ways, maybe not in all ways, but I believe it's like the government – I believe greater competition would result in – more prosperity would result in cleaner parks, cleaner streets, things working better. there are other types of people who are like well they are libertarians because they want to exist in a world of no judgment they want to exist in you know a world in which everything is permissible and nothing is judged and that's not why i'm a libertarian at all and so if we accept new hampshire's twitter account we are you know like except except when it comes to any semblance of right-wing culture in which case it's not anything goes they're actually very kind of cracked down So it's this weird game that they play.

1:14:34But exactly to your point, part of the reason, listen, like in the same sense that we all recognize there is some role for welfare in society, like, you know, whether private or public, like we recognize that like there is a little old lady who's a widow who falls down and breaks her hip and doesn't have money for hip surgery. And like some of the community in that case or something would have to kick in or something like that. Part of the reason why I love the idea of private voluntary charity rather than a welfare state is because they can have much stricter demands on you for receiving that welfare.

1:15:08You know what I mean? Like your local church can have all types of demands on you before they they help you out. Whereas like the government, their only demand is like that you I don't know, maybe forge a piece of paper or something like that. Hey, listen, Jeremy, I do. I got to cut off here just because we're over time. But I always really enjoy having all these conversations with you. Let's let's make sure to do another one real soon. And please let all of my listeners know where they can find your your stuff. Sure. You can follow me on X in my full name, Jeremy Kaufman. If you're interested in some of what I'm doing in New Hampshire, you can follow Free State PTY on X, or especially we have a new channel on YouTube, Free State Party, doing some long-form conversations with some really interesting people.

1:15:48And so if you're interested in the kinds of people that have been influencing my thinking, we've been inviting them out to these live in-person events, live audience events that are really interesting. And so you can check that out on YouTube at Free State Party. Awesome. Jeremy Kaufman, thank you so much, brother. Really enjoyed it. Thank you everybody for listening. Catch you next time.